Why did the game die/is the game dying?

[Solo4114]

Yeah the push/pull issue is one that was always a problem in this game. Try to do a move that requires jumping, get pushed down and someone slashes you on the floor. With 1.03, you had people who'd pull or push to knock you over, then stab you with the ass-move. The whole thing got rather ridiculous. I think a better way to do it would be to leave drain and absorb as dark and lightside powers, respectively, but also add a "Force Block/Negate" power to the general pool of force abilities. So you'd end up with the kind of scenario where you can both negate each other's force abilities, so pushing and pulling isn't so much of an issue. This was true for the later versions of the game (1.04) it seemed, but in the end, that didn't matter since the sabre was basically useless.

 

Some other minor tweaks to improve the game: Shields do not stop a sabre. If you're hit with a sabre, it goes right through your shields. The sabre needs to be the most lethal weapon in the game, if only because it's the hardest to use (or should be, anyway) and because only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

 

As for the other Force powers, they were pretty cool, but again, seemed largely irrelevant after a while. Then again, maybe it just comes back to the way that sabre combat worked out and the fact that it was all just another DM variant.

 

As for how many people seem to want to play RPG style JO, I think that's an indication of people craving the immersive Star Wars experience, which JO just couldn't give them. So it got to the point where you have a bunch of people walking around in a server, bowing, nodding, using all their various emotes, etc., refusing to type-kill (and people abusing that system, naturally), etc. That isn't the point of JO. The point of JO is to fight. Whether you like the DM style of play or not (I don't, as you might've guessed), you have to admit it's pretty damn goofy to wander around chatting with people in a DM server. Don't get me wrong, though. I love RPGing, especially in the SW universe. But JO is NOT the appropriate forum for that.

 

I'm not saying that etiquette should be tossed out the window either, but some of the rules (IE: sabre down means you can't attack me, keyboard icon means you can't attack me, etc.) ARE pretty goofy, in some settings. But, again, I attribute this to the lack of immersion that the game provided in MP, which led people to make up their own rules to at least try to have SOME kind of immersive experience. Because we can't make the MP game any more immersive than it already is, at least in terms of mods, coding, etc., what we CAN control is how we relate to each other in-game. So some folks adopt a sort of Jedi code for behavior, which, to me, indicates that the game itself failed in giving them the Jedi experience they wanted.

 

See, this is why I think that a class-based game would've held people's interests longer. It provides for a more immersive experience. You're required to play as a team, you get to choose to specialize in a particular area, and no single class is the uber-class. Plus, you're not just fighting for personal score or kills (>yawn<), you're fighting in the context of a larger cause, even if that cause is simply blowing up reactor X, or stealing the plans to object Y or what have you. Plus, I think that classes would've made the game more balanced. IE: jedi have all the usual force powers and a LETHAL sabre, but eschew shields, bacta, etc. Gunners get access to all the technological goodies, but lack the ability to use force powers. Mixed players get a little of both, but are masters of neither. Or you do it by classes where each class essentially depends on each other in order to survive, thereby creating the NEED for people to work as a team. I dunno. I think a lot of this is wishful thinking on my part, but I really did see potential for this game.

 

I just hope if a sequel is made, that they learn from the MISTAKES of this game and get things right the FIRST time.

[Jeff 42]

only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

 

Kyle Katarn doesn't have to pick whether he's a gunner or a Force user.

[Darth Kaan]

JKO will be dead when NO ONE is playing it anymore, and so far that is not the case, or this conversation on this forum would not be happening. JKO was extremely popular when it came out because nothing like it had ever been done before, with the 3rd person saber views, animations, and choices of force powers. The force powers and Saber are what initially made and still do make JKO unique amoung all other FPS games.

 

The patches were just aggrivating to a lot of players and then the plethora of mods started coming out. All of this further divided an already thinning mp community. FFA and Duel were popular for a while but got old quick to many players fast and clans died faster than beers were being drunk at frat parties.

 

MP lost it's luster because the only goal oriented style of play was CTF. The bottom line wether Merc's agree or not, is the patches ruined CTF by nerfing the saber turning it into a gun only based style of play if you wanted to win, so even it lost its appeal. After all, Frag only fps games are a dime a dozen. More and more gamers want an objective based style of play instead of the tired old fragfest.

 

A lot of newer games in different genres have come out since JKO and many pc gamers moved on to them. Rarely is game of any genre relased that has a strong following for more than a year or two... except for a select few.

 

JKO is not one of them.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Role playing killed JK2.

 

More people want to pretend to be Darth Chewbacca than develop their skills and compete with the best players.

 

It may be a FPS at heart but it was turned into a third person RPG by the time the fans were done with it.

 

What are some of the most common things you hear in a game of JK2?

 

"Saber off = peace"

"Quit laming"

"My saber was down"

"Stop spamming that move"

"Omfg I was typing"

"No honor"

"Bow"

 

 

 

Look at all the mods that came out for this game.

 

Pro mod was a serious attempt to fix game play issues and make a better playable game.

 

3 servers run it.

 

Toss out any mod name that has emotes where you can spin around like a ballerina.

 

Hundreds are running them.

 

Star Wars fans are simply not die hard skilled FPS players.

Sure there are some who are and there were some great gunners and saber players who were just plain rabid when they played but that was the minority.

 

You can sit here and blame Raven/Lucas Arts all you want but remember one thing.

 

The only reason these patches got put out was to shut people up who whined and fired off 90 million e-mails complaining non-stop about one or two stupid moves.

 

The ironic thing is these moves were not a big deal but these people were too lazy and ignorant to spend maybe 10 minutes a day actually learning the game so they became frustrated because they did not feel like true "Jedi" after playing the game for only a few weeks and went on a letter writing campaign.

 

Look at almost every complaint thread on these forums.

 

"It's not like the movies".

"I never saw Luke spam kicks and whore back stabs".

 

 

Well duh, it's a game and not intended to be like a movie.

Maybe, just maybe some of us want a solid fast paced FPS and maybe just maybe some of us have no interest in pretending to be Darth Yoda and bowing to "show honor".

 

As far as I’m concerned Raven put out a damn near perfect game/concept and bunch whiny Star Wars geeks who have never even played first person shooters destroyed it.

 

As much as I enjoy Star Wars, I have never despised the fans more than I do now after what they did to an incredible game and a once blossoming community.

[griff38]

Well Shock............you are correct, and well informed 4 a newbie.

[wassup]

I think that is Homosexual Ewok...if it is Welcome Back!!

[Luc Solar]

Careful, wassup! Don't blow his cover!

[Solo4114]

Shock's right on a level, but I think that it's not simply because SW gamers are not diehard FPS players. I've been playing FPS's since Wolfenstein 3D, and cut my teeth on multiplay with Duke Nukem 3D. I've played every iteration of Quake in one form or another (TF, WF, etc.), played the original UT for years, then got into RTCW, JO (briefly), and now BF1942.

 

The problem with this game, which is illustrated by the clamoring for patches, is the same thing that I keep saying: the immersion factor. Plenty of SW gamers would be happy to spend their time kicking ass as jedi, but they really want to FEEL like a jedi when they're doing it. Likewise, if they want to play a scoundrel or bounty hunter, they want to really feel immersed in the game when they're doing it. THAT is why you see the prevalence of RPG servers. People are trying to make this game immersive in a way that just isn't possible without frustrating the purpose of the game itself. This game is an FPS, plain and simple. No matter how hard you try, it will not be an RPG.

 

Now, FPS can still be immersive, mind you. RTCW had great atmosphere, as does BF1942. Those games really make you feel like you're involved in the environment. You're part of a war, on a mission, etc. I think a few things killed the immersion factor for this game.

 

1.) The patches. The 1.02 version of the game was never all that immersive specifically because of the uber-moves and bugs included, as well as the fact that sabre combat was essentially a jousting match (no one ever blocked). That's boring and not terribly immersive. It reduced sabre combat to whoever swings first with the toughest stance (usually red) wins. 1.03 reduced the game to a push/pull fest with backstab spamming. Again, not immersive at all. 1.04 added better blocking, but made the sabre a whiffle bat coated with styrofoam and no sharp edges (wouldn't want anyone to get hurt with the thing, now would we). Each of these patches also forced people to relearn the game, which meant that they had to re-immerse themselves in an already poorly designed game.

 

2.) The gameplay modes. Deathmatch is boring. We need objectives, we need something more to do than just beat the crap out of each other chaotically. 'Nuff said on this.

 

3.) The balance issues. There are so many little tweaks that would've made this game kick ass if implemented, but never were. IE: shields don't stop sabres, gun users can't use force powers while using guns, running backwards makes you move slower than running forwards (this was added in 1.04, but why so late?), sabres should be 100% lethal, etc. I'll say this: if I EVER design a game, JO will be one of the first games I look at as how not to do things. The game had tons of promise, but never paid off.

 

Anyway, all of these things led to me growing tired of playing the game. I don't want to play a boring mode of play (IE: DM), but if I do, I end up being torn between my loyalties to play styles. On the one hand, I believe in showing some respect re: honor, etc., but on the other hand, can we PLEASE just actually fight each other for a bit, instead of sitting around emoting and talking??? And when I do play CTF (which was rare -- boring maps, weak lightsabre, same-ol' same-ol' guns), I like to have a bit more of an interesting experience there.

 

Granted, the game may not be dead, but I'd hardly say it's thriving, and I think that the developers and design choices are the reason why.

[Jeff 42]

gun users can't use force powers while using guns

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Terrible idea. Also completely out of line with the history of the DF series. As one mode of gameplay, okay, but to force this on everyone would be utterly stupid.

[Solo4114]

Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

 

Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

 

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

 

I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

 

I'm also not advocating that gun users get ALL guns or that force users get ALL force powers. Rather that the specialize in being able to perform certain tasks extremely well, but not be able to perform others. The Jedi medic can heal, but can't use force speed. The Jedi scout can use force speed, but can only use level one self-heal and can't use ANY team heal functions, etc., etc.

 

By the same token, the bounty hunter can use light blasters and maybe some entrapment techniques, and can fly, but can't wield any heavy weapons (otherwise, how the hell do you fly?). The smuggler can sneak around and use medium weapons, but can't fly. The assault trooper can use heavy weapons, gets tons of armor, but moves slowly. Etc. You get the point.

 

I think this would add real variety to the gameplay and make for MUCH more interesting gameplay, especially when set against the backdrop of completing a given objective or securing territory.

 

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

 

Uh, not plain and simple. Luke uses a blaster and explosives in Empire Strikes Back.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114

Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

 

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

 

Isn't it? I mean, if you are allowed to do all these things in Sp, why shouldn't you be able to do them in MP? Players are going to want to be able to do the things they can in SP. But I agree that it has to be balanced gameplay.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114

I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

 

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

 

Why force players into classes and eliminate game types? Why not just add these options? Don't impose your own preferences on others and force them to play that way. Just give people lots of options to play the game the way they want.

[Mr. Mofo]

Mmmm, I think half the posts say EXACTLY the same thing.

 

Like the gameplay of Wolfenstein or Counterstike? Then PLAY Wolfenstein or Counterstrike. I like all the different ways of killing people in JK2, besides just shooting. Perhaps the lightsabers dont do enough damage, and that damn grenade launcher is broken, but I pretty much enjoy everything else.

[Solo4114]

I know Luke uses a blaster and explosives, but he's also not a Jedi in Empire. Maybe the way to do it would be to let you mix your abilities, but not be as skilled with the various abilities. That wouldn't screw up balance, I don't think.

 

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days. Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.

 

We definitely agree that balance is paramount in terms of game design and porting abilities from SP to MP. As long as it doesn't screw up balance, I think people should be allowed to do it, but balance must be preserved. And preferably not in the sense of nerfing all the weapons to the point where they're balanced, but rather differentiating the JOBS that weapons perform. And let's keep the weapon styles somewhat inventive, shall we? No more straight recycling of UT weapons. You can have mostly blaster weapons and still be creative. Or you can offer other hand weapons, such as vibro axes and knives, or force staves and pikes.

 

As for going and playing the other games if we don't like the gameplay of JO, well, that's kind of the point of this thread: that's exactly what people have been DOING and will continue to do over time, which causes the community to dwindle even further.

 

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?

[AJL]

I don't know if this game is dead or dying. For me it is

still OK game and pretty fun to modify and play...

 

But on the other hand I am a guy who doesn't play

many different games ( I play "only" these games:

JK2, AVP2 and also that "prehistoric" AVP1 )

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But whats wrong in JK2 (what may be "killing" it...)

 

I my opinion one of its most irritating things is its

cheat protection...

 

It DO WORK.. I mean i haven't met any cheaters

(or if i have then i haven't noticed them)

 

But at the same time as it prevents peoples from

cheating it also prevents me from using ANYof my

custom skins, models, ...

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days.

Yeah, well a lot of people who have been playing and appreciating the DF series since its conception WOULD mind, so think it over one more time. Guh, the number of people who have popped up since JO's release demanding that others be forced to play their idea of the perfect game is sickening in its enormity.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.

How magnanimous of you.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?

1.) There are many, MANY threads archived on this board FULL of suggestions on how to increase the probability that the next game will achieve competitive success. Anyone who wants to discuss this subject should first go back and read them all to fully understand the intentions and desires of the community.

 

2.) It was the stupid Star Wars fanboys that largely caused the demise of our beloved JO. It was they who made it unbearable for competitive players to populate the community, both by their continued Raven-lobbying to change the game into a foolish RPG, and their incessant whining on public servers.

[Solo4114]

Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.

 

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.

 

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum. But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y.

 

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere. What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game. And if you want to direct me to other threads, well, that's fine, but why not use this thread to collect, address, and examine the issues? It's also a fairly recent thread, as opposed to a number of the threads on this board (which also indicates a drop-off in fan interest), so I see no problem with continuing the discussion here. If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community? Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

"1337" gamers? ah, those would be the ones that both the RPGers AND competitive players hate.

 

I've yet to meet a competitive player of any good skill who ever spams moves.

 

Anywho, i'm of the belief that if JK2 had been tested to the same extent as say Quake 3, or had a pre-release demo with multiplayer (ie so Raven were made aware of issues much sooner), then the game might have had some more substance.

 

The game was rushed and it shows.

[RpTheHotrod]

I say we all quit JK2 and start playing TFC Woohoo!

[wassup]

Uh...TFC is even deader than JKII imho...

[ImmolatedYoda]

yes, TFC is dead yet there are constantly what, 400+ servers running it? and im one of those 1000s of players populating those servers .

[Solo4114]

Agreed. EXTENSIVE public playtesting is essential to a good game. BF1942 and RTCW both had public multiplayer demos released PRIOR to the final game's release and both made substantial improvements on the multiplayer aspects of the games. Granted, all companies tend to "rush" games out the door nowadays, but when you offer the public the chance to playtest and comment on the game, you give the public the opportunity to help improve your game. I'd bet that if they'd released a public MP demo prior to the game's release, and people had made the same suggestions for changes that led to the patches, the community wouldn't have been as fragmented as it ended up.

 

A very good point, DeTRiTiC.

 

As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

 

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.

No, let's not look past the sarcasm, it was integral to the post, and made some of the most important points, simply by its presence.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.

Oh, by all means continue to repeat and rehash things that have been said already in five-gazillion other threads by reams upon reams of people of varying degrees of qualification, if you want to. My suggestion that you should review pertinent past-threads was for your benefit, not for mine. If you want to continue wasting your own time though, feel free.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum.

I'll just stop you there, because it's not a subjective topic. 1.03 ruined the game, 1.03 was precipitated by fanboys, therefore fanboys were responsible for the destruction of the game. Quod Erat... You know the rest.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y.

Well not to put too fine a point on it, but your original question was irrelevant. In my opinion there were only minor flaws with 1.02, and it could have become a truly successful competitive experience if it hadn't been for the premature advent of 1.03. It was that fanboy-portion of the community that caused the game's decline. You can surmise all you like about what flaws the game possessed, but frankly it was never given a chance to succeed on its own merits, so the point is moot.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but neither will this thread. As I've said before, it's all been done before, the game is deceased and our only hope is the next product in the DF series.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game.

Why? Is the future developer of DF4 going to join us for the debate? If so, I'm all for it.

 

No, honestly, I am.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community?

Mods are here to enforce the rules, as you should know. To this extent, their actions are predictable.

 

Secondly, the community is pivotal in any discussion of why the game did not succeed, as a section of said community carries responsibility for its failiure. The section that wanted five-hour sabre duels. The section that wanted to make an RPG of an FPS. The section that wanted no guns on guns servers. The people that wanted to force their view of the game onto all other players, everywhere. In other words, fanboys.

 

As for vitriol, I'm probably more alkaline than acidic, as I'm confirmedly bitter. Colour me unrepentant too. I've seen it all before.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?

If you believe that any aspects relating to gameplay balance are commonly accepted enough to debate rationally, you're misguided. This is another reason you should review past threads, as you'd see that nobody ever agrees on what needs to be balanced, nor on how much it needs to be tweaked. Gameplay balance is as subjective an idea as "fun", and any patch that changes gameplay, no matter how slightly, annoys some group of people.

 

A widespread malady of the mind in the gaming community today is the erroneous belief that "balance" is the holy grail of gaming. What does it mean? Different things to different people. Some people want all weapons to be equally powerful, and they call that "balance." The question of whether total balance is ever possible aside, what's the point of having different weapons if they can all be used as effectively as each other? In my day, powerful guns were an enjoyable focus of a level, the RL in Quake, the Railgun in Q2, the Conky or Surge in JK. Where did this "I want to be able to use my ST Rifle effectively against your Flechette" come from? What sort of whiny nonsense is this? There are different tools, use the right one for the job you want to do!

 

Some people think "balance" is the act of tweaking powerups/weapons until spam is not possible. To them, I say wake up. Spam is an act of lameness, and there will always be lamers discovering new and interesting ways to spam. You can never stop spam, ever, because you will never stop lameness. It is a fact of life, like lag, like whining, like oxygen.

 

A game should be devised, released, and after about half a year, a bugfix-only patch should be released. Gameplay is not a science, it's an art, and community involvement in gameplay-altering patches has never done any good. Ask Tribes 2 players. Ask disgruntled CS players. Games succeed or fail on their own merits, and they should be allowed to live or die on the basis of whether they're good or not. It's that simple.

 

So suggest all you will, suggest "balancing" tweaks, suggest game modes, suggest graphical improvements, suggest anything you like, and believe me when I say that I hope it does some good. I really do. I don't think it will, but I hope it does.

 

All the best to your worthy endeavour.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Solo4114

As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

 

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there.

 

 

Whoa hold up there.

 

"GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves"

 

Competitive gamers play to win.

Not to please or put on a good show, but to win.

No argument is even remotely possible on that one.

 

Go to any ladder or professionally sponsored game tournament and ask the competitors something like:

 

"Hey can you guys competing at QuakeCon not use the rocket launcher so much, it's spamming and not fair".

 

I bet after the laughter dies down chances are you would be escorted off the property.

 

Come on man, you made some good points in a few of those posts but I really hope that was sarcasm because that is just absurd.

 

As for respecting server rules on public servers?

That just comes down to the individual.

It has nothing to do with patches or game play "issues".

If a person is going to be a **** he will be a **** in JK2, the Sims or even Zoo Tycoon.

 

 

And as for “1337 gamers”.

When I play I play to win.

Sure I screw around and goof off in public matches, but in any ladder match or tournament I compete in, winning is the only concern.

Granted that does not mean one should go to any means such as client side hacking but as far as game play is concerned, anything goes.

 

This notion that “winning is not important” is just plain stupid.

 

Virtually every single competitive online game has some type of scoring system for a reason.

People want to win, it is human nature.

 

Slapping a label like “1337 gamers” on people who are simply trying to win is really childish and shows a lot of jealousy for those who do succeed in these games.

[Solo4114]

See, Al, I actually tried to be polite and such. I didn't want to get into a pissing contest with you, and I still don't. But you know what? You can sit around a bitch and moan about how fanboys ruined the game. It doesnt' make it true. What ruined the game was not fanboys bitching, but rather the way in which the changes they advocated for were implemented. 1.02 was flawed and needed fixing. Take the blocking, for example. The way blocking in 1.02 was implemented, it really was just a jousting match of who swung first, since you knew there'd never be any chance of your swing NOT connected. That's why a lot of folks asked for blocking similar to SP's method. Honestly, to me, the SP style of sabre fighting was the ideal, but it was never effectively implemented because each time they "fixed" the game, it created a new problem.

 

Adding a blocking element to the game made it decidedly more interesting than simply swinging your sabre around with no chance of it being blocked. Granted, the WAY in which the change was implemented was not good. The blockign went a bit too far, did not have any real logic involved in it (as ArtifeX proved with ProMod), and made the game less enjoyable.

 

There were other problems with the patches, too. The failure to fix the uber-ass-move was a BIG problem with 1.03. It led to people spamming that one move over and over and over. To me, that's the sign of a lousy game. When a game devolves into a one-move match and it's all a question of who draws first, I move on, as I suspect a great many people did. ArtifeX himself even quit after he realized that the game had become a simple one-move affair, and I don't blame him. A lot of people wanted the DFA fixed from 1.02 because it had no drawbacks to it, the same way that the backstab in 1.03 did. All you'd do was get into a group, spam the move, and watch your score climb. No challenge there, no real interest there.

 

Now, as for the issue of balance, it's not a question of "oh please don't use the big gun" or don't let there be powerful weapons. Nor is it a question of "let my toothpick beat your battleaxe." The way I define balance is that weapons have an advantage and a disadvantage to their use. The RL in Quake has advantages. It's incredibly powerful and can be used effectively at medium and long ranges. In close, though, it has its disadvantages. If you misfire the thing, or if you try to kill someone right next to you, you'll seriously damage yourself in the process. That's balance. Pros and cons associated with the weapon. In UT, the flak gun was another well balanced weapon. It was devastating at close range with the primary fire, and the secondary fire was extremely powerful as well. Yet, it had offsetting disadvantages: it's primary attack sucked at long range, and you had to accurately calculate your trajectory if you were going to use the secondary fire long range. Same with the ASMD. Great at long range sniping duties, reasonably powerful with the secondary fire, but the primary fire sucked in short range unless you were really accurate with it. That's balance. I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept to grasp.

 

In terms of how the game COULD have been (and SHOULD have been) balanced with sabre fighting, the various uber moves should've been devastatingly powerful and able to smash through most defenses with ease. Offsetting that, however, would be the fact that they'd have either a long recovery time, or taht they'd somehow leave you open for attack if you missed. These changes were implemented, albeit in a flawed way. Instead of being mostly unblockable, the blocking in 1.04 and 1.03 to an extent (with the exception of the backstab) blocked these moves a bit too easily.

 

Overall, in terms of force powers, I thought they were pretty balanced in the later patches. Dark side wasn't all powerful, and light side had no real offensive powers. Using grip was great, for example, except taht you'd better hope the enemy hasn't turned on absorb. Absorb's wonderful, but you have to use it at the right time, or else you drain it too far. Drain is great, but only if the enemy has force mana left. These are a good balance of advantages and disadvantages.

 

Now, as for competitive gamers, I was quite serious in what I said. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. There's nothign wrong with using particular tactics on a server, provided that server has rules that permit it. And I don't blame you for using a single move over and over, if you're on a competitive server and it's a no-holds-barred match. I find it boring to play against someone who does that, but as long as you're not breaking the server's rules, knock yourself out. The "1337" gamers I was refering to are the lame people who tend to disregard rules, do what they want, and basically ruin everyone's good time. I see this crap all the time in online gaming, and it basically comes down to people not respecting server rules or the other players in the game. My problem with people who spam moves over and over is that it makes the gaming experience much less fun for me. Now, if I'm in a competitive setting, IE: a ladder match, then it's likely a no-holds-barred situation and I've got to expect that to happen. Unfortunately, the game and the way it was designed only encouraged that type of behavior.

 

This was one of the crucial failings of JO. It never really balanced it's powerful moves. You could use a single move or a single combination over and over and over again and win most times. Or it'd simply become a question of who had better timing in using those moves. When a game is designed such that it rewards people for using a single move over and over, that's a boring game. You might as well just only have one or two attacks in that situation. ANd that's what really hurt this game, even from 1.02: uber moves. I'm not saying there shouldn't be powerful attacks, only that they should have a corresponding disadvantage. In JO, Raven never quite figured this out.

 

Al, you put 1.02 up on a pedestal and say that it could've been a great game. I disagree. I think that 1.02 was boring, in that it had very little strategy outside of timing your swing, and it had flaws in its uber-moves. I think that 1.03 could've been great, if the blocking had been implemented the way ArtifeX ended up doing it, and the backstab had been nonexistent. Had that been the version that the community got, I think that the real split that was seen in the community never would've happened, or at least would've been much more subdued.

 

Do I think that the devs read this board? Not really. Maybe they glance at it occasionally, but I doubt that they really follow it closely anymore. If they do, they sure are quiet about it. But see, there's this great thing called the "Marketplace of Ideas." It's the basic concept that if we keep discussing things, eventually, we'll get to a good result. So I'm going to keep on discussing this issue, until no one else really feels like talking about it anymore. Even if the people who develop DF4 don't read the boards here (though if I were going to make a game, I'd want to know what the fan community felt, however divided it was), maybe some other game developer does, and maybe they'll take a tip from the discussions in here.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Whoa hold up there. [big long post].

 

Good players don't spam, they use attacks only as much as they need to. Good players may use individual moves a lot in succession, but that's not the same as spamming. Because with a good player almost every single shot is well aimed and will probably hit you unless you evade.

 

"Spammers" just fire non-stop without really aiming in the hope that they'll actually hit something, the problem with pull/push spamming is that it actually WORKS.

 

A Spammer is one of those people who doesn't get many kills, but they lag the server to hell and back with non-stop shots. In JK2 its quite evident with lightning users, since they keep firing even when they're not actually facing the target.