Wavey Davey Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU, yes they had the Jedi Academy, but some things were wrong, i.e Jedi Knight was set straight after RotJ JO +9 Years Therefore JO is set 9-10 years after RotJ 1) Mon lost her position as Chief of State during the events of Jedi Academy Trilogy, which was SEVEN years after RotJ. Mon Mothma was still the leader of the New Republic in JO. 2) Lando lost control of cloud city during ESB, he had a number of business ventures after but he did not own cloud city at the time. They make it quite clear in JO that Lando owns cloud city. Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke. EDIT: Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSurfer Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 They never said that he was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SettingShadow Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 ahem Who said that they have to follow EU stuff completly? Lets say I make up a story for SW, lets say in that story 1 year after the destruction of the second death star Luke is killed in an accident... ops, now Raven should of course go after my little story and form their games after it... right? And yes that IS EU. The films is the only thing you have to stick to in a Star Wars game. And Kyle Katarn is the main character of Dark Forces (best game of the series in my opinion), Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (wich I owned it :|) and Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Davey Posted April 12, 2003 Author Share Posted April 12, 2003 Well i disagree about the films being the only things u have to stick to as i'm a huge EU fan and wouldn't be into star wars half as much if they din't have it. Besides they've followed most of the other EU stuff, Yavin, Mara Jade, Ysaslmari sp? so why not use other stuff and make it true to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Also, Lucas regards the EU community as those who just want to cash in on the Star Wars movies, and the stories should be taken with a grain of salt. So don't go off on a group of people about the EU expecting it to be 100% right, when in fact that it is a story not told by the creator, but by others who only have the license and do not have the eagle's eye over their presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Originally posted by Wavey Davey One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU... I'll try not to turn this thread into a flame war. First of all, to a large percentage of Star Wars fans, the EU books are not canon. There are several reasons of this, like all the continutity errors between books written by different authors. But the biggest reason I have heard, and the reason I don't think they are canon, is that they are not written by George Lucas, the creator. He has no input on the stories, and only dictates what topics can't be covered. The books do not reflect George Lucas's view of what happens in the post-ROTJ timeframe. Originally posted by Wavey Davey Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke. First of all, there are graphic novels detailing events involving Kyle, and he is mentioned in the NJO books. He is also listed in the Essential Guide to Characters. He is just as official as any other none movie Star Wars character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/kylekatarn/eu.html He's an officially recognized character. though EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Who said Mon Mothma was the leader of the new republic in JO? I don't think the great leader will brief Kyle and Jan on missions Who said Lando owned Bespin?? C'mon don't take this EU too serious, I never read any SW books and those extra stories aren't really official... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SettingShadow Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Well, I see any made up SW story as some sort of EU... maybe unoficial EU.. And I think alot of this EU stuff seems to be big crap... I've never read any EU except for two old comics (wich was total crap) but most of it seems to be bad IMO. Why they should only stick to the movies and not EU? Well, because EU, is IMO one persons thoughts (just as the movies are Georce Lucas thoughts) of what happens in the SW universe and should therefore not be taken serious. If theres some book/novell/comic/anything claiming something happened at this or that particular time (like the empire rises again and the new republic falls) I'm almost sure (though, not 100% sure) it would be perfectly acceptable if someone else claimed that something else happened at that exact time (something like ..and they lived happily ever after ). JO had some things from other EU (apparently), but also had some other stuff (that yes, apparently argues with other EU). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Davey Posted April 12, 2003 Author Share Posted April 12, 2003 Well i'm glad everyone agrees with me, for a minute there i was worried about posting this message in case i started an EU vs Films debate, lucky that didn't happen Guess we're all entitled to our opinion it just bugs me a bit, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Ah yes, the EU. If we REALLY want to get on who's right, who doesn't follow what, just look at the EU itself. Full of continuity errors, not to mention the fact that Luke apparently changes personalities as he goes through the books. And believe me, the changes aren't 'natural', just the result of so many authors writing about him. Not to mention that in the NJO books, it's practically suggested that the dark side isn't real. Not to mention the fact that the EU basically says that any person can escape the torments of the dark side. Kyp Durron does it (hogwash), Luke Skywalker turns on PURPOSE, and then returns (hogwash), and then some of those NJO characters do it too I think (hogwash). This completely diminishes Darth Vader's character, since he doesn't turn until he's spent the next 30 years destroying the galaxy, beating up his own son, and then watching the Emperor torture him, not to mention the numerous times he just choked someone because they made a small mistake. The more Raven steers clear of the EU, the better we are for it. As far as I am concerned the EU is more machine now than good story. Twisted and evil. Hehe. Just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinga1 Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Dude....do you have any clue just HOW MUCH EU and movies conflict? Don't get me wrong, I love the EU, but IF we use it as canon, then both the geonosians and bevel lemisk (sp) invented the death star, 10 or more years apart. In addition, lightsabers can and can't be turned on in the water. Furthermore, C-3PO was built by both a factory and by Anakin Skywalker. There is NO WAY you can make any story that doesn't somehow conflict with some part of the EU or the movies. It never, btw, says Lando owns Cloud City. In where does it call Mon Mothma "Chief of State"? maybe she was just used to brief them because....who knows why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pad Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 well JO is based on the sw universe but doesnt have to be according to EU you know. EU is merely fan fiction which has been taken very serious be numerious ppl. i really cant see how you can you can look at the movies and EU and suggest they are or should be the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent_Thunder Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 I've only read a few EU novels... such as the ones written by Timothy Zhan and actually thought they were pretty well done an had a good sense of what fit in Star Wars, and what didn't. I especially liked the Hand of Thrawn books. Still; there were some things I didn't like... and didn't feel fitted in with Star Wars, such as the Ysalmira (sorry, I can't possibly remember how to spell it ), the jedi cryptonite stuff (turns lightsabers off???), the cloned Jedi C'boath, ect ect. (Seriously though, why would that rock stuff that turns lightsabers off not turn blasters off when fired at it? Both have their lasers as an emitted field of energy, not part of the mechanics itself.) I also read 3 or 4 of the NJO books. I thought the first one was pretty bad. The other ones I read were decent, one or two of the others were alittle better. But overall it seemed like it lost all sense of Star Wars, and what made it fun. It also seemed to have lost the established set of rules that a Star Wars story follows. Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 As has been pointed out before, Kyle Katarn is a part of the EU continuity, and features in at least three novels (Soldier for the Empire, Rebel Agent, Jedi Knight) plus has a section in the New Essential Guide to Characters (though they make a mistake.. saying he spared Sariss's life... he didn't, at least not on the Light Path of JK, and in the novel, same deal... she's dead). Kyle may seem powerful, but so are many of the Jedi in the EU. Since DF series are games, they have to have some fun factor, if they were perfectly realistic, he probably wouldn't be a jedi or he'd be a super weak one. Why not let players live their dreams of being a super jedi? Anyway, Lightsabers should work in water btw... that bugged me. That scene in Episode I was never filmed, and AOTC contradicts it (Obi's saber gets soaked many times, but still works fine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 It wasn't an NJO book. Luke INTENTIONALLY turns in the earlier EU books, I forget which one it was. Dark Empire, whatever. Basically, Palpatine isn't dead (hogwash), because he makes a thousand billion clones of himself. They are all exact copies, but have no spirit until Palpatine uses the Force to transfer himself over to the bodies (hogwash). Luke decides to experiment with the dark side for some reason, see what it does, how his father suffers from it, but basically he joins the emperor (!!!?!?). To make a sad story short, Luke comes back, he and Leia defeat Emperor Palpatine, who is now capable of making 'Force Storms' with his hatred. Then, he can use this stuff to destroy whole cities, etc (more hogwash). I too enjoy it when people make their own continuing stories on Star Wars. I don't mind the idea of it, it's just that the stuff that gets sold in the bookstore has been complete junk. The authors take a simple premise of Star Wars and transform it. I know we should see new stuff in the novels, but they take the 'new' too far for my tastes. Basically, when I see Star Wars films, both trilogy and prequels, I can't even begin to see a semblance of it in the EU. Thrawn was an excellent character to create, but I felt that Zahn's plot devices were a little weak. We all knew that since Luke Skywalker was the only jedi around, and a particularly talented one given that he trained himself to speed in a time span of only a few years, that he'd be pretty unstoppable in a lot of one on one, or group on one situations. But I also feel Zahn could have come up with something better to give Luke a challenge other than create just a slew of Deux ex machina for Thrawn to use. "Oh no, Luke can't use his force powers because of a squatting lizard!" or "oh no, now Luke's lightsaber is completely inactive... because of a rock!" I'd prefer if they just gave him something to fight, like impossible odds (send a big army after him, or better, a whole troop of bounty hunters), scenarios where he almost has to choose who gets saved and who doesn't. But it's not my story. Oh well. The EU is fun, I guess, but then there's anal rententive people like myself who can't stand it when a fanfiction or whatever seems to lose the spirit of the original, or takes away from it too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 When you think about it, it took Kyle many many years to become a powerful Jedi. In actuality, his power in the first game was due in large part to his proximity to the Jedi spirits in the Valley (his powers greatly diminished after he left and time passed). Note how much less powerful he is in MotS (and again, his power grows as he gets close to the Dark Side power of the Sith temple). His "true" powerlevel through training is shown in JK2 single player. In fact, he does use the Valley to "restart" his connection to the Force after he's "shut it off" in his mind for so long (for fear of falling to the dark side). The part about having a force "source" is not without precedent in the EU. Note that Mara Jade was powerful until the Emperor died... he was giving her force energy. The Clone Emperor gave his "hands" powers in the Dark Empire comics (though those guys were incompetent, heh). The spirit of Exar Kun gave Kyp Durron powers (and Gantoris before him) of the Dark Side to enhance his low level powers in the Jedi Academy trilogy. A group of low level Jedi combined their powers to do a great feat in Darksaber as well. So it fits. I hope there will be a secret level where you get to play as Kyle in JA.. with his decent power levels. After all, there's no excuse why he won't be powerful this time around, on his own steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin1607 Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Why is this even being discussed? All star wars games are part of and fit with the EU. There are a dozen small EU tip offs in JKII: JO. Jerec and his merry band and Moff Moc from DF are in the New Esential Guide to Characters. And there's nothing IN the games that contradict any previous EU material. Grife's sake, give these guys some credit. They actually managed to work Whaladons into the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Now obviously I'm not one of LucasFilm's crack copyright lawyers or anything like that, but this is how I understand it: The films (Episodes 1-6) in their "finished form" (ie: special editions, dvd editions, etc) are the highest form of canon, or the "pure canon" of Star Wars. Right under them are the official screenplays, novelisations, and radio dramas (in that order). Everything else is considered "official" that is.. stuff that's officially liscensed through LucasFilm or one of its subsidiary companies to bear the right to carry the Star Wars logo and characters. This constitutes the "EU" (Expanded Universe) which has characters and stories that spin out of Lucas's original works. It includes the other novels, comics, and games. The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars. Now the lower official cannot contradict the higher official and the higher official cannot contradict canon. That's not to say there aren't apparent contradictions between the pure canon (say between the prequels and the original films) but that's about as good as you can get. Usually the EU has tried to follow the canon, but its been tripped up by the Special Editions and the Prequels. I suppose they're trying to catch up. But so long as LucasFilm lets them, JKA can fall in line with the history just as the others do. So long as it doesn't contradict the films in its story line, it'll fit, somehow. Though again, there are always exceptions (the RPG counts as a game btw) such as the "Infinities" which "didn't happen" but "could have happened" had the movies turned out differently. In the official continuity, Kyle did do stuff like he did in the games... maybe not exactly scene for scene, but pretty much. Consult the novels for the official word... About the only really glaring problem I saw with anyting in the DF series was the Noghri in Mysteries of the Sith... But you can blame that on the guys who made the Zahn thrawn trilogy based Comic books. The artwork they used (Noghri as big hulking blue gorilla-type monsters) is straight out of those graphic novels (which were interpretations of the EU books). Other than that, there's a few minor quibbles with the JK2 weapons (the Mark inquisitor doesn't look like a remote, even though it does in JK2; the disruptor has a longer barrel in the game; the Bryar pistol suddenly shoots gold bolts instead of red though it could have been Kyle modified it heavily between MotS and JK2; Trip Mines look just like Laser Traps... for these and other examples see the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, which is based on the movies and earlier EU works). Note also that the appearance of Mara Jade has changed (since she's not in the movies) over the course of the various adventures she's been in. Lots of contradictions exist in the EU, so one or two things here and there shouldn't be a big issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 To answer your question.... "fan fiction" (ie: not liscensed through Lucas or his various companies) is NON-Official and NON-Canon... ie: means nothing in the overall continuity. Even the lowest official video game with the Star Wars logo on it (copyrighted) is higher officially than the best written fan story or fan film I can post on the internet. So something like "Troops" or "Balance of the Force" wouldn't be official either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlancer Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Dude, do you own research. Lando got cloud city back, one of the Young Jedi Knights books takes place on cloud city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars. I want to hammer on this one very carefully, because I believe that some of the games themselves have the ability to trump the EU novels. LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas. As to where game scriptwriters and voice actors have to get things right to please "he who's nose we are not worthy to pick" (wait, that is Miyamoto's title... damn), the writers of these novles don't have to please Lucas so much as their editors and publisher. So basically, games such as JKII are the card that is played against some of the EU contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Originally posted by Rad Blackrose LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas. Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on. All he does is specify what the limits are, like who you can't kill, and so on. He does not proofread or edit stories. They are the creation of the authors, not Lucas. Lucasarts is responsible for making sure that stories fit reasonably into the timeline. Originally posted by Silent_Thunder Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it? I'm not sure what book(s) he is mentioned, as I haven't read them, but he is in there. Nothing major I think, just things like, "most people were at the meeting, but Kyle Katarn was not". Just mentioned in passing in a few places. As for Luke going to the Dark Side, I believe that was in the Dark Empire comic series. This is one of the big issues I have with EU authors. As we all know from the movies, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Vader was the special case, which is why he is the chosen one. In the EU, everyone and their dog gets corrupted by the dark side and they always turn back. Are there any EU characters that don't?. And as far as Mon Mothma is concerned, her is here bio from the official Jedi Outcast site at Lucasarts: After the fall of the Empire, Mon Mothma was chosen to serve as the Chief of State for the newly created New Republic government. She served valiantly in the difficult first years of the New Republic, through assassination attempts, uprisings from the Imperial Remnant, and even the rebirth of the Emperor. Later, Mon Mothma stepped down and presented the title of Chief of State to Leia Organa Solo. Mon Mothma still remains heavily involved in government, working closely with New Republic Intelligence to help maintain peace and keep tabs on the movements of the Imperial Remnant. Another side bonus to her work with the NRI is that she continues to interact with her "favorite" agent, Kyle Katarn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Rhett Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 "Canon of the EU" ... rofl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent_Thunder Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Hmm, I thought I recalled hearing something about a cloned Emporer... But the way you guys make it sound the EU totally nullified everything that happened in RotJ by having Luke go to the darkside... Even having the "cloned Emporer" seduce him... It sounds like someone just wanted to rewrite RotJ to me! Just out of curiousity, but does Kyle every get any dialouge in any NJO books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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