Drunken_Sailor Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Ok, since the other thread created by Mek, got deleated, I'm starting a new one to continue this. Originally posted by MeksilonWhat I know is that God created everything. The universe, the stars, the planets, every form of life. He created man and woman, and he created marriage. In the Bible, ignoring where homosexuality is condemed, God clearly creates (exclusivly) hedrosexual marriage and this is then talked about and explained extensivly. What about the Universe? It's made up of Space and Time and it can only exisit when there is both space and time, without time there would be nowhere for the space to exisit and without space there is nothing pysical to exisit in time. Infact I've heard many Athiests claim that God could not have always exisited because something had to create Him. This is not true becuase of one main reason. It is true that in this Universe that would be true because they are the laws of Time and Space. However God exisits outside of Time and Space - indeed He created our universe. Therefore He is not bound by ANY of our universe's laws. This is (in fact) not simply far more, but rather tremendously more logical then the Big Bang theory. It is impossible that our Universe could exisit without God. Time could not exisit, nor could space; or any object inside time and space. This is what my faith is. Informed, solid. Blind faith is beleiving what you want to be true. It was caculated that the odds aginst horse DNA evolving into what it is now is 1 in 10^300,000 (this was caculated by an athiest/evolutionest). Now there's only (an estimated) 10^80 individual particals in the entire universe, making the probabiliy irreocncilibly relivent. Hi Mek, Here we all go again. Not that I mind. I enjoy this stuff. While I agree with the premise and conclusion of your argument, I'm not so sure it is as solid as you state. While it may be true about the horses statistical chance of evolving, accepting your numbers as fact, that would be like saying that if you knew three out of four cards laying face down were aces, that if you chose any one, it would be an ace. In other words the chances of evolving into a horse may have been extremely high, but there are an infinite number of possibilities evolution can go and statistically they are extremely small. But evolution would have to provide some result, therefore even if all the possibilities were remotely small, somtehing would still result and appear to be a statistical anomally in your sense. Further, while I agree space and time would not exist without God, I do not believe that there is any proof of this, at least not in your argument, upon which you can justify your statement. As for your other points, I'm in agreement! Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Shutt Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Even if you think feeding this idiot troll is a good idea, why do it in "The Future of Monkey Island"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken_Sailor Posted May 28, 2003 Author Share Posted May 28, 2003 Sorry, this was supposed to be in The Future of Monkey Island forum, I don't know why I posted it here. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadmeat_X Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 omg, not again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Arguements like this tend to get heated and abusive round here. Keep this one civil, for gods sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Drunken_Sailor Sorry, this was supposed to be in The Future of Monkey Island forum, I don't know why I posted it here. My mistake. No it's not your mistake at all this is a better forum to locate it in. As for Carl's comments; I don't know what he thinks about himself but I sure know what he thinks about me comes from someone who is not more mature or more sane or smarter or even better looking then an "idiot troll".there are an infinite number of possibilities evolution can goNo there aren't, that's the thing. Because we live in a universe with a finite ammount of matter then there is a finite ammount of possabilites evolution can go, since we know that the physical size of dna can not exceed the limits the univers would allow it to exceed. This brings me to a better point that being from the amazingly high number of possible dna combinations there are few which actually get the chance to appear. Now we would expect say 1 in 1000 to have a 1/1000 probability of appearing. The concept of something with the probability of a horse we would expect not to have happened either in the past, present or future of the entire universe. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branik Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Try physics instead of theology. Makes better sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Shutt Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon As for Carl's comments; I don't know what he thinks about himself but I sure know what he thinks about me comes from someone who is not more mature or more sane or smarter or even better looking then an "idiot troll". Help me out Mek, you're talking about what in the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 You know what Carl? I am going to help you. I'm going to help you understand why you are so messed up. But first we need to establish who you are. Are loving or kind or nice person? No. What are you then? From your attitude and your comments and rude insults directed at yours truely I can say quite safly that you are a self-rigtious fool who beleives that his beleifs make it true, who beleive that mine are invalid because those who influence his life beleive other then what I do, and hypercritically discriminates against me because of my beleifs. That's who you are. Now lets see about why you are like this... well that should be obvious so instead we'll look at how you can imporve both your behaviour and ultimatly your character, because let's face it it needs refining. You can be more curtious, rather then offending you may like to be affirmative instead, I seriously doubt there's anyone who likes you more then me so it can't hurt you to try. You can also type messages of substance instead of flaming; as we say in Australia "you can pull your head out of your arse". Now as for your concerns, don't worry we'll get to them at some point, when you have concerns that reflect dignified argument rarther then self-domination and trying to prove to someone you're better then me (and let's face it if you think you've proven that I'm sure anyone will tell you that you have not). I'm sick of your shit I suggest that if Carl dosen't stop acting like such a retarted attention seeking moron he be removed from participating in what is otherwise peaceful, intelligent conversation. --- Oh and please don't think that just because you think I'm a troll that gives you the right to call me one. You only proving how utterly pathertic your conversational skills really are. You'll notice I have constructivly insulted you in this thread and as a result it will have a far greater impact on you then your insults ever did on me because everything I've just said is based on solid proveable fact, all of it is what I beleive and none of it has been put there to specifically to insult you, but rather to shed light on your dark side. If you are not capable of controlling yourself perhapps you'd better take a break from participating in threads where I am. That is my advice to you, it's good advice and if you don't follow it you're only going to make yourself look worse. Because of your intollerance I doubt you'll follow it but at least it can be shown that I peacefully asked you to reconcider your position. In your own words this post is "feeding the idiot troll" but it's important because you're just going to continue being an unwarrented annoyance without any regard for other people. I suggest that if you are not going to beleive that your behaviour is wrong you ask for a thrid-party oppinion because I'm sure that they will say to you exactly what I have said to you and that is you are acting in an irrationally mean and offensive manar deliberatly. Thankyou, Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mex Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon [big unnecessary quote of entire last post edited away by bg] I agree with Carl, you are an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Really? Would you like me to tell you bluntly what I think of you? Or should I not say that in fear of being banned. It dosen't matter you know what I think anyway. Well you should know what any right minded person would justifiably think, so enjoy your intollerance. After all that is why you hate me, and yet that is what it takes for you to be abel to hate me. Hypercritical. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Using Creatonism, then, explain the observations of Darwin: - Individuals within a population show genetic variation. - Organisms produce a great deal more offspring than will actually survive to reproduce. - There is competition between individuals for food and mates, and also predation and disease. This keeps population size constant despite the production of so many offspring. - Individuals which are better adapted to the environment are most likely to survive, breed successfully and produce offspring. This could be a moth that has the same colour as a tree, and so avoids predators by blending in with the surroundings, or a bear with a thicker coat that can cope with colder climates. - These 'survivors' with their genetic variation will therefore pass on their genes to their offspring resulting in an improved organism, better developed to suit the environment. Why would the creatures today be different from the creatures when God originally made them? Is God constantly changing these creatures through generations Himself to suit their environment, and if so why does He not simply change the environment to suit the creatures (like modern man does). Or are these observations wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I don't argue against genetic mutation/variation/simple evolution. One can see, for instance, that the aids virus has consistantly mutated and keeps changing. What I don't beleive is that we all came fromt he same primodial soup where life could not have begun to begin with. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Virus evolution isn't the same, because viruses (or virora to use the perfectly correct plural form) aren't living organisms. But surely the Bible states that God created Man as he is today, and all creatures as they are today. For why would He allow for His creation to change through generations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Mort, I agree completely. Hey, Mek, how do you fundamentalist bastards explain evolution? It's always interested me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al-back from the BigWhoop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon Well you should know what any right minded person would justifiably think, so enjoy your intollerance. come on mek, who is the intollerant one around here? last time i checked, you were the one who couldnt accept any1 that was diferent than you. just like hittler. i think debating evolution without getting out of the box is pointless. does the catholic church still believe earth is flat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Which raises an excellent point. Mek, you see, not everything a church or religion says is right, so it's never good to follow a set of rules laid by one to the extent you do. In the same way as people believed that the earth was flat because the Catholic Church said so. I think the reason was because since God had created humans, he put them at the centre of the universe... or was that when the Church was proved wrong about Earth being the sole planet in existence? You have to believe, Neo. Believe that you do NOT LIVE INSIDE THE GODDAMN MATRIX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I'm not Catholic Mort I never was and I never will be. And Yufster evolution is fiction, I mean it was indisputibly proven that humans did not evolve from apes and the theory was updated to say that humans and apes share a comman ancestor. How many times does it have to change before you question if the new theory is right or not? Mek, you see, not everything a church or religion says is right, so it's never good to follow a set of rules laid by one to the extent you do.Well that's obvious, infact the Old Testiment states quite clearly that the earth is floating around in space (hence the realization that it wasn't flat), Catholics just ignored that because they're stupid. They also ignore Jesus's brothers (we don't know how many he had but we know of at least James) claiming Mary died a virgin. This is blind faith that isn't based on anything Biblical, so there is really no comparision between it and what I beleive. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 *sits in the corner singing* The wheels on the bus go round and round. Round and round. Round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round. All the way to town. The people on the bus say "shut up kids, shut up kids" the people on the bus say "shut up kids shut up kids" all the way to town The people on the bus play naughts and crosses, naughts and crosses. The people on the bus play naughts and crosses, all the way to town. *looks out the window* It's so nice and sunny, I can't believe it's nearly winter. I'll be a proper adult in THIS many days *starts counting on her fingers like a 5yo* UMMMMMMMMMM I losted count. Whoooopsies. I watched the man who sued god earlier. Quite a funny movie. Billy Connely sues the insurance companies/churches because his boat was distroyed in an "act of god" Very funny. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Shutt Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon I'm not Catholic Mort I never was and I never will be. And Yufster evolution is fiction, I mean it was indisputibly proven that humans did not evolve from apes and the theory was updated to say that humans and apes share a comman ancestor. How many times does it have to change before you question if the new theory is right or not? That's how science works, you moron. Theories adapt to new evidence as it is discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Carl Shutt That's how science works, you moron. Theories adapt to new evidence as it is discovered. Carl I've asked you very nicely not to call me names. How far back are you willing to push human evolution? It's already been pushed back far further then would ever have been accepted (hence the claim humans and apes share an ancestor, rather then humans evolving from apes). Daniel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon I don't argue against genetic mutation/variation/simple evolution. Also posted by Meksilon evolution is fiction, I mean it was indisputibly proven that humans did not evolve from apes and the theory was updated to say that humans and apes share a comman ancestor. Where exactly is this 'indisputable evidence'? I'd very much like to see it. Also, I'm now confused by the contradictions. Firstly, you believe in genetic mutation and variation and 'simple' evolution (whatever that is). And yet, you do not believe in 'evolution'? If you believe in the genetic mutation then evolution follows simply from that, as I believe the genetic mutation part is the hardest to understand and believe. All that follows on from that is logic, and has indeed been observed, not only by Darwin; that the offspring with the mutated genes might possibly have some altered characteristic that will allow them to survive better than others of their species without that mutation. This is no different for any creature, whether they be a moth, a bear, or a human. This can be seen in the characteristics of humans across the globe, for you will see that humans are not all the same. There is a great deal of variation. Humans originally had very dark skin so to have greater protection against the sun and very thin, curly hair so that heat could escape from the scalp easily. This can be seen in Africans today. As humans moved further north, however, those that developed the genetic mutation and had fairer skin would survive better as their darker-skinned comrades would suffer from vitamin D deficiency (or vitamic C? I don't quite remember.). Also those that developed thicker hair would be able to absorb more heat and survive the colder winters. The theory of evolution meets all observations. If I've missed your point I apologise and can only ask that you make it clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 *sits in the corner making popcorn chains* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Groovy Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 *Joins Natty making popcorn chains* Yeah, notice these skills here Natty, this takes a great deal of patience.....DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Natty [bI watched the man who sued god earlier. Quite a funny movie. Billy Connely sues the insurance companies/churches because his boat was distroyed in an "act of god" Very funny. hehe [/b] Where the hell did a church get a lawyer? Oh, and mek. I think at i time like this i have to say something? What came first, the chicken or the egg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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