I dont know, i just dont think this game is gonna be the new hit...

[Tyler_Durden]

Ok maybe the reviews it got were in fact questionable at best. So what? Did you have fun playing it? Hell i think it was the single greatest game i ever played. Now if they remade the original JK and mots with the same play mechanics that would be even more awesome. And with the added editing tools, that makes this game worth more than the mere 50 bucks we put down for it, because then we can build our own levels and let our imaginations and visions of what star wars can look like. Ok the mp does suck but still, mp is to me, just an add on in itself. SP is what these guys should be focusing on, mp is secondary. Would i like a good mp? yeah but it is not essential. but hopefully raven has heard everyone's complaining and actually listens. In fact they are in here all the time so it's pretty much a given. I just can't wait until this game arrives on the shelves.

[StormHammer]

Let's try to keep this discussion civil, shall we?

 

Mr. Joshua...you're right that the GameCube version of the game received those scores. But Mike was talking about the PC version of the game, which scored considerably higher.

 

So you are both right with your facts and figures...but you are talking about different platforms.

 

Anyway, I don't care if JO scored 2%...this forum is for discussing Jedi Academy, so please bear that in mind when posting. Thanks.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

Gamezone Reviewgamecube.attended, go download a transcript of the event if you feel the need to question my credibility again, as I've clearly proved that you're an egotistical assclown.

 

No ... we've proven that we are operating in a different context. I'm operating in an assumed PC environment. This is the preferred FPS environment for gamers, XBox coming distant second. GameCube is about as conducive for FPS as the PC is for mowing your lawn (this means I'm making a joke). I never even looked at GC reviews.

 

JK2 recieved AVERAGE marks PERIOD. E-mail PCGamer and everyone else in the industry, WHICH I'M IN!, if you don't believe me. Otherwise, continue making an idiot of yourself.

 

Here's my link: http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/516547.asp

 

As you see ... JK2 got top scores. Your assertion, in the context of the preferred platform, is not correct.

 

However, that is immaterial. You don't like JKII. You probably won't like JA. That is your opinion, and your money to choose. My money will be heading to LEC & Raven, and I'm sure I'll tthink it was well spent. And isn't that the point?

 

Sorry to be abusive - I was out of line.

 

Mike

[Sargasso]

Threads like these remind me why I don't dedicate my life to computer games anymore.

 

With the exception of a lone programmer or a relatively small group without a publisher, computer games:

 

May include work done by artists but they certainly aren't art. Art to me is a labor of love.

 

They can't be labors of love because while development may involve hard work doing something they love, labors of love are completed to the absolute satisfaction of the crafter. This can't apply to a business with a bottom line always trying not only to meet it but to go as high above it as possible. It can't apply to an industry whose status quo is the release of something unfinished or otherwise broken because, admittingly, consumers have by and large tolerated it.

 

Some artists are never satisfied, how would anything get finished, graphics wouldn't advance fast enough... yep, things my way would certainly change the.... "industry."

 

So long as one accepts games like JO and now JA as products for the business of mass consumption, I suppose it is okay to be satisfied by a SW FPs that is merely "good."

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Sargasso

With the exception of a lone programmer or a relatively small group without a publisher, computer games:

 

May include work done by artists but they certainly aren't art. Art to me is a labor of love.

 

Computer games have never been works of art or labors of love, except in rare cases of one or two programmers working for themselves with no intention of selling the game.

 

Have you read about id? Or the development of Dark Forces? Or of just about any game? They are not pretty.

 

The gaming industry is an industry like any other. Decisions are made on a business level. I think it is better than the music industry, but that is because it caters to a group that likes (in the FPS case) to run around shooting things ... hey, I like to do that (as opposed to the latest derivative pop tripe the 'music' biz tries to foist on me)

 

Making games is about fun. About capturing your imagination and entertaining. So long as a game does that, it is OK.

 

I think you can see the love and respect for the SW universe when you read stuff from Mike or Kenn from Raven. I felt it in the game, obviously you did not.

 

But that is what itt is about - capturing the imagination. They have mine, but seemingly not yours.

 

Mike

[Sargasso]

Correct.

 

Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.

 

But wait...

 

Decisions are made on a business level.

Making games is about fun.

 

Which one is it?

[Prime]

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

And Prime, you obviously failed to comprehend my words. IT WAS INTENDED ORIGINALLY TO BE AN EXPANSION PACK. When Raven started tinkering around with it they realized it'd be better to just make a whole new game.

And I stated that I had heard the opposite, but I also said I was unsure and was hoping that someone could provide some concrete information. You didn't provide this information in your first post, so I wasn't sure if this was really the truth. I "comprehended" your post just fine. It doesn't mean that I will automatically take it at face value. Nor does it mean that I automatically think you were lying.

 

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

And it was NOT considered for GOTY by the top award givers.

 

PCGamer March 2003 Game of the Year Awards Issue

GOTY - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)

Best MP Game - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)

Best Action Game - MOH:Allied Assault (JK2 not nominated)

Best RP Game - NWN (of course, JK2 not nominated)

Best RTS Game - WC3 (of course, ....)

Etc, etc...

 

JK2 wasn't even given honorable mentions in any award category. The only mention PCGamer gave it was in "the best and the worst" section.

Sorry. I didn't realize that there was a list of who was qualified to give out awards. Is PCGamer the only "voice of reason"? Or is there anyone else that isn't just making stuff up? Who exactly decides what awards are valid?

 

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

And that's it. Now if this game was as aclaimed as you all CLAIM it to be with reviews done by children...

LOL. Well, here are the PC reviews from the same sites that you quoted from earlier, so I will assume that you don't think that they are run by children.

 

GameZone review

Overall: 9.6

I don't think I have ever given such a high score before...Raven and Lucasarts have created a superior product that has to be one of the best ever...

 

GameZone review

Overall: 86

It starts slow, but the lightsaber combat and Force powers make Jedi Outcast one of the better action games you'll play this year.

 

GameZone review

Overall: 9.0

Not only is this one of the greatest Star Wars games I've ever played, it's one of the best action games period. Get it, Play it, Love it.

 

There's my proof. Posted by this newbie. I won't tell you to shut yer hole

 

Assuming that these guys aren't children, you can see that I wasn't just blowing smoke when I said that Jedi Outcast was very well received in many circles. I know these reviews aren't for the GameCube, but hopefully you won't disregard them outright.

 

Because Raven has obviously satisfied most people's demands with JO, I suspect that we can be confident that Jedi Academy will meet our expectations as well. At least for the PC, which is what I use for FPS anyway.

 

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

And finally, the comments tossed my way after my first post causing hostilities are the reason this community is crap alongside the fanboy rpg nerds that would rather sit in a server (litterally) than play the game the way it was intended.

Fair enough. I agree that RPGing has destroyed much of MP. Sorry for the harsh response...

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Sargasso

Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.

 

I am wondering why you would frequent any game based site when it would them be impossible for any game ever released (at least in my gaming-lifespan of >20 years) to have matched your imagination.

 

Whether I am easily amused, or lacking in imagination,I don't know, but I've found many, many games that were made by companies with business groups, and sales and marketing divisions, that I actually really liked.

 

... and I've played many games made by a single person with a passion and devotion to 'crafting his/her art' that turned out to be pure crap.

 

Which one is it?

 

What a poorly worded phrase I used! "Making games is about fun." What I *meant* was that since the earliest days, games have been about fun and escape, with an occasional sideline into intellectual stimulation. Computer games are no different - they are made to be enjoyable for the players - enjoyable enough that the players will recommend them to others, and buy future games. Or, in the case of the singular programmer, they are made because that programmer thinks it will be fun/cool.

 

Mike

[Prime]

Originally posted by Sargasso

Correct.

 

Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.

 

But wait...

 

[Decisions are made on a business level.]

 

[Making games is about fun.]

 

Which one is it?

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Remember, employees who work for big companies are people too. They can be just as driven and enjoy their work just as much as the lonely independant game programmer. Just because business decisions have to be made does not mean that the developers don't love making these games and get satisfaction when they hear that players have fun playing them. In general, developing a quality product that provides what the user wants is good for business. Because of this, big companies want to hire people that are passionate about work, not just looking for a big paycheck.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Prime

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Remember, employees who work for big companies are people too. They can be just as driven and enjoy their work just as much as the lonely independant game programmer. Just because business decisions have to be made does not mean that the developers don't love making these games and get satisfaction when they hear that players have fun playing them. In general, developing a quality product that provides what the user wants is good for business. Because of this, big companies want to hire people that are passionate about work, not just looking for a big paycheck.

 

You are very correct - I worded my phrase poorly.

 

I can see the passion in many of the developers interviews and posts on various forums. I mentioned Kenn and Mike - they are trying so hard to make these games really enjoyable and challenging.

 

Mike

[fallen[fk]]

Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Everyone has their favourite magazine or web site for game reviews, and personally I've found some problems with PC Gamer in the past. For example, they reviewed Jedi Outcast before the game had even gone gold, which to my mind indicates the product was not 100% finished when they reviewed it. In addition to that, they have also got some game specifications wrong in the past, applauding some features that may fail to appear in the final product.

 

Anyway, I never, ever, rely on one magazine or website to make a personal judgement about a game.

 

And as I said in my previous post...please keep on topic when posting in this thread. No one can say whether JA will be GOTY, or be a smash, or be mediocre, until the game is finished, and everyone has had a chance to play it and form objective opinions. Anyone who slates the game at this point is forming an opinion based partly on JO (if they didn't like that game), and their fear that the new game will fail to live up to their expectations, in my view.

 

And if PC Gamer release a review for the game in the issue of the same month the game is released, I'll be sure to ignore it completely, because I'll know they haven't played a 100% complete product. After all, they write these magazines about 2 months in advance...

[fallen[fk]]

Originally posted by StormHammer

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Everyone has their favourite magazine or web site for game reviews, and personally I've found some problems with PC Gamer in the past. For example, they reviewed Jedi Outcast before the game had even gone gold, which to my mind indicates the product was not 100% finished when they reviewed it. In addition to that, they have also got some game specifications wrong in the past, applauding some features that may fail to appear in the final product.

 

Anyway, I never, ever, rely on one magazine or website to make a personal judgement about a game.

 

And as I said in my previous post...please keep on topic when posting in this thread. No one can say whether JA will be GOTY, or be a smash, or be mediocre, until the game is finished, and everyone has had a chance to play it and form objective opinions. Anyone who slates the game at this point is forming an opinion based partly on JO (if they didn't like that game), and their fear that the new game will fail to live up to their expectations, in my view.

 

And if PC Gamer release a review for the game in the issue of the same month the game is released, I'll be sure to ignore it completely, because I'll know they haven't played a 100% complete product. After all, they write these magazines about 2 months in advance...

 

By that logic not one game reviewer played the final version because it took Raven 6 months to finish the game once it'd been released. And you're mixing up REview with PREview, which PCGamer does often, I'd like to know what specifications they got wrong, seeing as I've gotten the magazine for 7 years and not once found anything wrong with any of their specifications. And over 11 million readers worldwide says they're the best. End of story. No other publication for PC games has that kind of readership.

[The Cheat]

I think this game is gonna be awesome, you can make more choices, you can make your own character (very cool) and you can use a single, dual blade, or 2 lightsabers without needing a mod. I think this game will be better then jedi outcast in every way

[Prime]

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN.

They may (or may not) be the best, but they aren't the only one. Their reviewers will have biases and preferences just like everyone else (which is fine). That's why I usually have a look at a bunch of different sources. The particular reviewer may not be looking for the same things I am out of a game. But reading a bunch of reviews I can get a pretty good idea about what is good and bad. If you want to rely on one point of view, that fine. Just don't expect me to fall in line about a game just because PCGamer says so.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Mr.Joshua

By that logic not one game reviewer played the final version because it took Raven 6 months to finish the game once it'd been released.

 

Not at all. That is your opinion. I refer to the game prior to any patches.

 

And you're mixing up REview with PREview, which PCGamer does often

 

Excuse me, but I know the difference between a REview and a PREview. I've been reading PC and games magazines since the late 80's (and my early 20's). There was actually a thread about the PC Gamer REview in the Valley around the time of JO's release, where one of the developers contributed to the thread and pointed out some of the mistakes in the PC Gamer (UK edition) article. I'm too tired to search for it at the moment, or to dig out that particular issue of PC Gamer.

 

And over 11 million readers worldwide says they're the best. End of story. No other publication for PC games has that kind of readership.

 

A great many more people once thought the world was flat. That didn't mean they were right.

 

And before you continue in this particular vein...if your next post in this thread doesn't mention JA, I'll delete it. This thread is not a discussion about PC Gamer magazine...but about whether JA deserves to be an expansion or full-blown sequel to JO.

[The Count]

To be honest I'm glad this game isn't going to be an expansion for one it makes perfect sence to be one, due to the fact that it would be far too much of an expansion pack, making it a new game was also good busuiness (I mean Expansion packs are about £15-£20, however now they can jack up the price to £35)

 

 

I'm also glad it uses the Q3 engine aswell, I mean just think of all the multiplayer restrictions the new engines have, I don't think and due to the fact it is still in early develpment stage (I mean experience wise I know its out), they would be able to give us the degree of freedom we had with the saber in JO, however the Q3 engine can.

[HertogJan]

C'mon guys, this is getting pathetic. No not Prime or Stormhammer, but the ppl who think the PCGamer is holy. What IF the PCGamer is holy in the US? What about the other billions of ppl on earth?? The ppl in Europe who are maybe even more crazy about FPSes than the ppl in the US! In the US, the Sims allways have at leats 2 titles in the top10, here it's allmost all FPS.

 

In my country, the PCZone is the biggest, together with Power Unlimited (Dutch language only magazine). And excuse me, but the reviews pointed out earlier were of the GameCube version and as you might now, console ports can suck big time (not allways).

 

And then the GOTY thing; what's so important about that? Does the game HAVE to be GOTY in order to be a big hit? So please stop enforcing your opinion on other ppl, PCGamer isn't holy, accept it.

[txa1265]

For a bit I thought this 'game ranking' thing was getting way off topic, but I thought some more and now think it isn't - but we should all just let it go and try to push forward.

 

The initial question (or topic) was whether or not the game would be a 'hit'. That has morphed somewhat into whether or not the game will be any good. I think that is a better topic to discuss, as there are many 'hits' that are poor games (Enter the Matrix) and many good games that aren't big sellers (NOLF2 has been at 'bargain' prices for a while, and it was a top 2002 game, only out ~ 7 months).

 

So will it be Good? Just OK? Great? Pure Crap? Best Ever? We don't know. But to have an intelligent discussion, we need to develop a context and a shared understanding of what a 'good' Jedi Academy would look like. That is where we ran into problems, because you cannot possibly develop that context without a shared understanding (though not necessarily a shared opinion) of Jedi Outcast.

 

And that is where we really had problems.

 

Perhaps we can push past that so we can discuss what would make Jedi Academy a good game for [sP] and [MP]. Let's see if we can ...

 

To do that I would suggest that we allow ourselves to fall into two camps, which I'll label [JO+] and [JO-].

 

Although the basic meaning should be obvious, I would clarify to say that the [JO-] means that Jedi Outcast is a bad starting point for Jedi Academy, as Jedi Outcast poisoned the Jedi Knight well, so to speak. It means that Jedi Academy should use the fundamental sensibilities of the Jedi Knight game, coupled (unavoidably) with the Q3TA engine and all of Raven's technology, to make the best possible game.

 

[JO+] is perhaps as obvious as it seems - take Jedi Outcast as an excellent starting point, and improve and extend it.

 

Sound good? Worth a try?

 

Mike

[toms]

sorry to take it back off topic, but i wanted to mention that last months edition of EDGE (the one with the half life 2 cover) had a really cool artical on how games are reviewed... they got a number of reviewer from different mags to comment, then got them all to review the same game...

 

It was pretty interesting...most game reviewers don't get more than a day or two, some only get hours... so they tend to play it for a bit, then whack on the cheats to storm through it and confirm that the rest of the games matches those initial impressions. Of course, some games get more time than others...

 

I eventually had to stop getting pc gamer uk as they started getting really bad. Generally the inside reviews were ok, but the BIG GAMES, thoe ones that got the FRONT COVER EXCLUSIVES seemed to always be reviewed really positively... as if it was the only way they get the exclusives. Even the really BAD games got above average reviews if they were featured on the front cover.

 

Anyone in the UK, id really recommend EDGE... especially that article. otherwise i tend to use gamerankings.com, as one thing i have discovered is that reviewers can have entirely opposite views on a game (or film) so i no longer trust just one...

 

JO-

[txa1265]

Originally posted by toms

sorry to take it back off topic

 

Maybe that is a nice closer ... anyway it was interesting. I use Gamerankings as well - it is amazing how (a) two reviewers can say the same things but give widely different scores and (b) how reviewers can seem to have polar opinions yet almost identical scores. But as we all know, especially in the case of *first person* games, there is only one reviewer that really matters ...

 

Back to topic [JO+].

 

- I'd like to feel in JA like I did facing Shadowtroopers for the first time. I was already to the point of taking out Reborn pretty quickly and that I was something ... then I got quickly overwhelmed and killed. When I reloaded I approached things very differently ... I want to feel that way often in JA.

 

Mike

[HertogJan]

Originally posted by txa1265

Back to topic [JO+].

 

- I'd like to feel in JA like I did facing Shadowtroopers for the first time. I was already to the point of taking out Reborn pretty quickly and that I was something ... then I got quickly overwhelmed and killed. When I reloaded I approached things very differently ... I want to feel that way often in JA.

 

Mike

 

Yeah exactly, I really liked the setting were you fought those shadowtroopers too, too bad I played it on easy the first time, but the one shadowtrooper there was pretty hard to beat at the time I also liked the Reborn fights BTW, some also had great settings, like the two hiding behind the pillars(sp?) on some sort of square in bespin.

[Vagabond]

To actually speak to the stated topic of this thread, I too don't think we're going to see drastic changes in Raven's version of Jedi Knight gameplay. However, the one thing that I am very much looking forward to is creating a multiplayer character skin, in-game, that is to some degree unique-ish.

 

In my opinion, Jedi Outcast's multiplayer skins were very lacking, and that's being generous. Now we'll have the chance to create a great number of skins, presuming that this part works out as advertised, and that could be nearly as fun as actuallly playing the game.

 

My real hope for the Jedi Knight franchise lies to the future, when some other developer is given the opportunity to bring Jedi Knight alive with the Unreal engine. And yet, it may never come to pass. But, if it did, might I say: Mine eyes are made the fools o’th’other senses...

[Spider AL]

In my opinion, Jedi Outcast's multiplayer skins were very lacking, and that's being generous.

Pfft. I always find it amazing that people care so much about how many skins they have to choose from in a game, especially considering the two facts: One, skins should have no effect on gameplay, other than the obvious advantage of dark coloured skins in a strategic sense, and two, most people end up using some sort of downloaded skin to replace one of the default skins anyway.

 

The idea that skins are in any way important is silly. I force all player models to be the same anyway. It's the most purely cosmetic thing I can imagine. Without substance.

 

Now we'll have the chance to create a great number of skins, presuming that this part works out as advertised, and that could be nearly as fun as actuallly playing the game.

Ahem. If I want to play "dress up" there are better ways to do it, frankly. Gameplay is the core of the game, and that's all I care about.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Vagabond

My real hope for the Jedi Knight franchise lies to the future, when some other developer is given the opportunity to bring Jedi Knight alive with the Unreal engine. And yet, it may never come to pass. But, if it did, might I say: Mine eyes are made the fools o’th’other senses...

 

Well, you never know, Vag, Lucasarts might actually entertain taking the series back in-house, considering they are working on making Republic Commando using the Unreal engine. I assume this is the case, because the announcement didn't mention another developer working on it. Once that team is up to speed with the tech, I don't see any reason why they couldn't look seriously at then developing another Jedi Knight title. I'm assuming that Lucasarts must have learned a lot from Raven in terms of getting the right kind of combat mechanics implemented.

 

Anyway, I don't see a reason why JA should not be very successful, with it's wider range of options and choices. While the 'separate level per mission' design might not work for all future titles, it certainly seems to be the right choice for this particular game. A lot depends on how the story arc is interwoven into each level. Raven/Lucasarts have made a smart move by mixing up and redefining the style of play for JA, because I'm sure another strictly linear SP game with limited choices would not be received as well as this one might be.

 

In terms of MP, I'm happy with the choices they're making in that department too. I have to admit I only ever tried Holocron and Jedi Master a couple of times, and they didn't really hold my interest as much as the other modes. The Seige mode, along with the new elements and features they're bringing to MP, like vehicles, could really engage the community a lot more and provide a great deal more scope for interesting mod ideas.

 

The thing that is missing from MP that could have been included is an RPG mode to keep RPers happy, and out of the FFA, TFFA servers. If it is something that part of the gaming community wants (and which has created problems for others in the community), then I think it should be considered. I understand why the RPers are using Outcast, in a way...because they don't have to pay a monthly fee like they would for SWG...and Knights[/i] will be SP only so an alternative RPing opportunity for SW has been lost. At least give the RPing community the mechanics to be able to develop their own mods to suit their needs. That is one of the main problems I see that could plague JA.

 

As far as the future goes, I tend to agree that any further Jedi Knight games that might be considered after JA should really be developed on a more up-to-date engine, either Unreal, or perhaps HL2's Source engine, which we know will have a considerable modding community that is well-supported.