Moosferatu Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by deadworm222 Moos, the DA thing, I don't really understand what you mean to say. Umbridge doesn't really teach them anything, Harry does - that's the point. Right, but the reason Hermione asked Harry to do it was that she said that they couldn't learn any more from books, and that that they wanted Harry because of his experience. But then Harry goes and all he teaches them is stuff that they could have learned from books. When he was doing his big rant earlier he was going on about how they didn't know what it was like to actually face something, etc. But then in his class he never seems to mention anything about this, or how what you should do in different situations. They basically just get together and learn how to do spells, but he doesn't teach them when to use them in different situations or what to do in different situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by Moosferatu That doesn't work. The order called it a weapon and they were trying to keep Voldmort from getting it. They didn't give a fig about the room and I'll wager that only Dumbledore knew what was in it. Another thought, if Harry is supposedly full of so much power and so forth, how come he is a below average student? I mean in HP5 is he made out to be a complete dunce. There is always the cut and past classroom scene. Harry and Ron fail yet again to do something, yet Hermione does it perfectly her first try. I think she should be the one to kill Voldmort. Also, Harry and Ron have trouble righting 1 page papers! How hard is that? In the book Order NEVER sais WHAT is the weapon....They just say that Voldermont is after it and you can understand that it is in the ministry of magic. Also that harry has the power in him, doesn't means that he will be a "cassete-mind" and a genious at reading , like hermione but will be a heck of a battle-magician as it is shown many times (and don't forget his achievements in the "Defence against the dark magics" ) And i don't see that Harry failed. He mostly kept his OWLS in a A grade and he managed to take in "Defence" an O. so i don't find that medium student..is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by pleto4_ryan GOD how stupid can Harry be. Sirius told him that if he wanted him he should use the parchel. Didn't he wanted him. Did he have to create all this commotition to get inside Umbridges office. GOD Ah yes, but if I remember rightly Lupin doesn't really want Harry to use it, or something like that. I dunno. I hope it'll be explained later. I just thought it was sad how Harry smashed it afterwards. Also, in Umbridges class they learn straight from the book and don't even practise the moves physically - but with the DA they did. So that's the difference. ; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by pleto4_ryan In the book Order NEVER sais WHAT is the weapon....They just say that Voldermont is after it and you can understand that it is in the ministry of magic. Also that harry has the power in him, doesn't means that he will be a "cassete-mind" and a genious at reading , like hermione but will be a heck of a battle-magician as it is shown many times (and don't forget his achievements in the "Defence against the dark magics" ) And i don't see that Harry failed. He mostly kept his OWLS in a A grade and he managed to take in "Defence" an O. so i don't find that medium student..is it? Thank you for proving my point. The fact that they said that the weapon was what Voldmort was after proves that it was the prophecy. Voldmort never mentioned the door. Also you have to remember that Dumbledore said that Voldmort doesn't believe in that kind of power nor does he like it. So obviously he wouldn't want it. That is why he couldn't stand being in Harry's body. As you pointed out he does seem to be decent at doing magic when it comes to Defence against the Dark Arts, but this doesn't make very much since they way that he protrayed throughout the rest of the book. What is so different about those spells that he can seem to do them, yet he can't do the simpler charms and the what-not? It doesn't make any sense what so ever. Also if his power doesn't make him a better wizard or able to special stuff, what is it good for? Obviously that kind of magic does have power, it saved his life, but why isn't seen any where else after that? Is it lock in side of him needing to be tapped, maybe? You know sort of like the Hulk, which, BTW, I just saw today. I thought it was quite good, except for the end. I hate it when they end movies to lead into sequals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingzjester Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Death Star? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by Kingzjester Death Star? I don't understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil25 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 You wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by Moosferatu Thank you for proving my point. The fact that they said that the weapon was what Voldmort was after proves that it was the prophecy. Voldmort never mentioned the door. Also you have to remember that Dumbledore said that Voldmort doesn't believe in that kind of power nor does he like it. So obviously he wouldn't want it. That is why he couldn't stand being in Harry's body. Still i believe it was a game. Voldermont wanted the prophecy that was in the ministry. The order knows of a weapon that it is the most powerful "power" in the world. Tell me please the book page that they say that the prophecy IS the weapon...i don't seem to have read such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by pleto4_ryan Still i believe it was a game. Voldermont wanted the prophecy that was in the ministry. The order knows of a weapon that it is the most powerful "power" in the world. Tell me please the book page that they say that the prophecy IS the weapon...i don't seem to have read such a thing. I can't remember myself if it was ever out right stated that that was the weapon. If I ever get bored today I might look it up. But the point is the weapon is what Voldmort was after, even you have to admit that, and as it turns out Voldmort was after the prophecy and never once mentioned anything what so ever about the door. Even if he had, like I said above, he would never want that kind of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scabb Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I just finished reading the other day, and I agree with some of the "disappointed" statements, in that this book really offered no new "twists" and wasn't particularly shocking. The "prophecy" seems a little tacked on and clichéd, and Harry's character was as dull and ignorant as ever. Still, Rowling writes excellent stories, and I do consider myself a small fan (albeit a critical one). I also recently re-read the first one, and I think I noticed a plot-hole of some kind. When Harry reads the back of the Dumbledore collectors card on the train ride to Hogwarts, it says something about Dumbledore helping Nicholas Flamel to invent the philosophers stone. Yet later on, we find that Nicholas Flamel is something like 300 years old, thanks to the philosophers stone. So, this means Dumbledore must be over 300 years old too. Of course, I could have just made that last bit up, I haven't bothered double checking or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by Moosferatu But the point is the weapon is what Voldmort was after, even you have to admit that, and as it turns out Voldmort was after the prophecy and never once mentioned anything what so ever about the door. Exactly....Voldermont THOUGHT there would be a weapon in the prophecy. But as it was seen. there was none... But the order wanted to protect the true one, thus letting him thinking that the prophecy is the thing they are protecting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Originally posted by pleto4_ryan Exactly....Voldermont THOUGHT there would be a weapon in the prophecy. But as it was seen. there was none... But the order wanted to protect the true one, thus letting him thinking that the prophecy is the thing they are protecting... I am not going to argue about it any more. We will just have to see how it all plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amishler Posted July 4, 2003 Author Share Posted July 4, 2003 Here's how I see it: Voldemort was after the prophecy because he thought it contained the key to killing Harry, or at least the reason why he hadn't been able to kill him in the first place ("marking him as his equal"). Since he hadn't heard the whole thing the first time around, and since his plan to kill Harry had backfired so horribly, you can imagine that this would be somewhat of an obsession for him. Of course, even though he didn't get to hear it, it turns out that there wasn't much helpful information in it. Voldemort's already trying to kill Harry, so the part about one having to kill the other wouldn't be of much use. But in Voldemort's eyes, the prophecy was a weapon of sorts. I still think there's something more to it, though, or else why would the Order spend so much time and effort guarding the Department of Mysteries? And Scabb, the Dumbledore card says he worked on alchemy with Flamel, not specifically the philosopher's/sorcerer's stone. So probably Flamel created the stone 600 years ago, but worked with Dumbledore much more recently. If you remember, in the diary-flashback scene with Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore had auburn hair, which means that he probably is on a more natural aging curve than Flamel (or that Tonks does his hair). Still, in most people's estimation, Dumbledore is the only wizard more powerful than Voldemort, so it's entirely possible that he has some way of extending his life. I mean, he's already more active than most octo-/nonagenarians I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadworm222 Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Besides, Rowling has said in an interview that wizards live longer than muggles. Moos: But then Harry goes and all he teaches them is stuff that they could have learned from books. When I read the book I had already read you view of the book, which spoiled the book for me some, but I didn't mind. Anyway, I tried to find something like that, but I couldn't. What do you mean "stuff they could have learned from the books" ? You probably don't mean "stuff Umbridge could have taught them", because you can't learn spells by just writing. You mean the DA members could have taught themselves and Harry wouldn't be needed as a teacher? But isn't it much better to learn in a group rather than alone (in this case). Harry has the special status because he knows the spells already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Originally posted by deadworm222 Besides, Rowling has said in an interview that wizards live longer than muggles. When I read the book I had already read you view of the book, which spoiled the book for me some, but I didn't mind. Anyway, I tried to find something like that, but I couldn't. What do you mean "stuff they could have learned from the books" ? You probably don't mean "stuff Umbridge could have taught them", because you can't learn spells by just writing. You mean the DA members could have taught themselves and Harry wouldn't be needed as a teacher? But isn't it much better to learn in a group rather than alone (in this case). Harry has the special status because he knows the spells already. It really isn't that important, but I will look up the exact line if you really want me to. I don't have the book at hand right now, so it will have to be sometime later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Ok the following is a quote from page 325 of the American version. I have now clue if the pages match with other versions. "We can't do much by ourselves," said Ron in a defeated voice. "I mean, all right, we can go and look jinxes up in the library and try and practice them, I suppose --" "No, I agree, we've gone past the stage where we can just learn things out of books," said Hermione. "We need a teacher, a proper on, who can show us how to use the spells and correct us if we're going wrong." Read it as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 As for... As you pointed out he does seem to be decent at doing magic when it comes to Defence against the Dark Arts, but this doesn't make very much since they way that he protrayed throughout the rest of the book. What is so different about those spells that he can seem to do them, yet he can't do the simpler charms and the what-not? ... it's similar to how some people are good at maths though crappy at say creative writing or whatever at school. All through the books it's pointed out that wizards specialize in some fields, without being very good in other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by RemiO As for... ... it's similar to how some people are good at maths though crappy at say creative writing or whatever at school. All through the books it's pointed out that wizards specialize in some fields, without being very good in other. But defense against dark arts is made up of the other feilds of magic put to a defensive use. For example, the one spell the summons the stag (starts with a 'p' but I can't spell (haha) it), I believe is a charm. So Harry can do a really high level charm, but apperently struggles with the simple stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadworm222 Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Moos, what ever it was that you said, I have the feeling you were correct, although I'm completely lost at what the original problem I had was... I have to re-read this thread. EDIT: Ok, so what you originally said: "Another thing that it is interesting to note is that the reason that Hermione wanted to Harry to teach the D.A. was because they wanted to learn more than just spells and that they couldn’t learn anymore from books. Yet, what does Harry teach every class? How to do spells of course! Makes perfects sense." I admit that how come Harry ever learned those spells from books is a little strange. That's probably got something to do with his special skills. So you think that Hermione and whoever meant that Harry should teach more than just spells, but he doesn't. No, he doesn't. But on the other hand, I didn't get the impression that "more than just spells" was the important bit here. Even according to the quote you posted, the important thing was that someone "can show us how to use the spells and correct us if we're going wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by Moosferatu But defense against dark arts is made up of the other feilds of magic put to a defensive use. For example, the one spell the summons the stag (starts with a 'p' but I can't spell (haha) it), I believe is a charm. So Harry can do a really high level charm, but apperently struggles with the simple stuff. The point is though, that in the previous books it took him forever to learn that, and he still can't do it that well. Even in the beginning of book five he has problems doing the p-whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadworm222 Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 *whispers* patronus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosferatu Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by RemiO The point is though, that in the previous books it took him forever to learn that, and he still can't do it that well. Even in the beginning of book five he has problems doing the p-whatever. Point taken. Harry could do well in school, but he doesn't really care. Deadworm, I noticed that bit to when I read for the second time. It looks like it could go either way, but as far as what was writen goes, he only taught spells. I was waiting for some big cheesy speach in one of the D.A. meetings, but it never came. Oh, well, it isn't like it is really that important. There are a lot better things to complain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnmax221 Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I personly think Harrys a Pothead and the Sorcerers stoned In every book if you don't beleive me look at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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