txa1265 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Emon I would like to draw attention to the original Jedi Knight, which suffered far worse multiplayer imbalances and issues that Jedi Outcast, was never patched, and never had annoying fanboys that threw a fit when a patch ruined their perfect fantasy gaming experience. So what are you saying, that as the DF series has matured, its' audience has become less mature ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Emon ...and never had annoying fanboys that threw a fit when a patch ruined their perfect fantasy gaming experience. I think that this is due to the fact that JK was released in 1997 and Episode 1 came out in 1999. When JK started, nobody knew about how Jedi really were, if they used blasters, and so on. Because of this, the fanboys at the time only had the original trilogy to go on for information. Luke carrying a blaster meant it was OK to use multiple guns along with your lightsaber. It also meant that players were much more forgiving in terms of "realism", because they didn't know any better. After the prequels came out, fanboys got all upset because the JK series didn't reflect exactly what the Jedi of the Old Republic were like. I suspect that if JK came out after Episode 1 you would have seen the same kinds of things we see with JO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I agree with you, Prime. The more of the SW universe we see, the more we have in terms of expectations for how that universe should work. And if you're going to base a game on the jedi experience nowadays, you need to take into account the jedi experiences that people have witnessed,whether they're true to the timeline or not. (IE: Old Republic Jedi were far more acrobatic than Luke & Co.) That said, I think it's perfectly reasonable for fans of the films to expect certain faithfulness to them in their gaming experiences. Do the films have to be slavishly copied? Of course not. But to me, there needs to be more than just a blaster and a glowing stick to satisfy my expectations. I expect that the weapons and fighting will operate in roughly the same way as the films, taking into account the need for gameplay being fun. It's funny, but when you think about it, even the sub-genres of FPS games out there now could be applied to Star Wars games. You could have your arcade based, quake-like shoot 'em ups, or you could go with your strict realism, one-hit-by-any-weapon-kills games. Personally, I think it'd be interesting to see a game of the latter type, since we've already seen plenty of the former. Not that the shoot 'em ups aren't fun, mind you, just that I think that a more refined realism based game could be fun too. For example, you could have ALL weapons be one to three hit kills. With JA's locational damage, you could implement this in a pretty realistic fashion. You could also remove a number of the heavier weapons in favor of putting in a real variety of blaster weapons, where the projectiles all look the same, but the guns operate in a slightly different fashion. 'Cause when you think about it, all the realism shooters out there just have guns that fire bullets, albeit bullets of different calibers, penetration, firing rates, etc., etc. I'd be interested to see a similar game for the SW universe. Not as a replacement for JA, mind you, but as an alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 the patch for Jedi Knight didtn even touch gameplay. The patch was only to improve joystick support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Didn't you guys see AOTC? It's a canonical FACT that Jedi can be killed (and many are) by blasters (from non-force users!), assuming they are overwhelmed, surprised, simply incompetent, etc. And that is a good point. Jedi using sabers vs. JEDI using guns, who do you think is going to win? The "cheap" sabers from 1.02 were better suited to fighting in FFA and CTF (I agree, Sabers only CTF is silly for the most part). The trouble was, they tried to make the saber into a "special dueling weapon" in 1.03-4 and so that's what it became. Making the saber more powerful than all the other weapons combined is NOT the answer. Everybody wants to be a Jedi, and as a result, you have a level playing field. I am thinking some people have the mistaken impression that every multiplayer game should be a re-creation of the carnage they enjoyed by ganging up on armies of helpless Stormtroopers in Single Player. heh ; ) I think that this is due to the fact that JK was released in 1997 and Episode 1 came out in 1999. When JK started, nobody knew about how Jedi really were, if they used blasters, and so on. Because of this, the fanboys at the time only had the original trilogy to go on for information. Luke carrying a blaster meant it was OK to use multiple guns along with your lightsaber. It also meant that players were much more forgiving in terms of "realism", because they didn't know any better. After the prequels came out, fanboys got all upset because the JK series didn't reflect exactly what the Jedi of the Old Republic were like. I suspect that if JK came out after Episode 1 you would have seen the same kinds of things we see with JO. That's actually a good theory. However, like it or not, DarkForces/Jedi Knight/etc is an official part of the Expanded Universe now, and if you recall, in the Expanded Universe (due again to the fact that the authors didn't know GL's plans for the prequels when they wrote their stuff, and can't change it now) Jedi are not limited to wearing bland desert robes and swinging only blue or green (or purple if you're Mace Windu) lightsabers as their only weapon. The game could be done as some have said, with only a variety of blasters (as in the movies.. since there's very few different types of hand weapons used in the films), a thermal detonator and a few lightsaber variants. But why isn't that a good idea? Because the series has conditioned people to EXPECT expanded universe weapons to be included, for the sake of variety, fun, balance, etc. It would ruin the whole continuity. A "Purist Jedi" game doesn't belong in the Jedi Knight series continuity. A "Purist Gunner" game will be made however, and that's Republic Commando. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Yeah, the lowered blocking of 1.02 was more suited towards CTF/FFA and the higher blocking of 1.03/04 to dueling. That's what separate operation of weapons for different game modes is a good thing. I'd still want SOME blocking in FFA/CTF, but you don't need anywhere near as much as in 1.03/04. As for the purist jedi/gunner games, I wouldn't want a purist jedi game to be part of this particular series. It could be an offshoot, though, or a mod. I don't know much about Republic Commando, but if it's got nothin' but blasters and a few extra weapons (not the quake-esque guns of JO) and people go down in one or two hits, I'm definitely interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 i have only played about 1 hour of MP on jedi outcast ever and i see what you are talking about. I just hate the fact that your a jedi and you have rocket launchers, det packs, blasters, etc. I could understand a lightsaber and a little blastech pistol or something. but why all the huge stuff. why not fill those places with some cool gadgets...like for those to-high-for-force-jump ledges....give us a grappling hook. use one of those for a disguise to fit in the enviroment[like mots]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legameboy Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 It's called Force Mod 2 my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by Solo4114 As for the purist jedi/gunner games, I wouldn't want a purist jedi game to be part of this particular series. It could be an offshoot, though, or a mod. I don't know much about Republic Commando, but if it's got nothin' but blasters and a few extra weapons (not the quake-esque guns of JO) and people go down in one or two hits, I'm definitely interested. I would love to see a 'Light Jedi' game - but separate from the Jedi Knight series. Maybe KOTOR will be that game for me ... but it still isn't a FPS. I'd love a saber only game, where you needed to use stealth and mind trick quite a bit more (to get through without major battles, not to avoid 'failed mission' screens), where all powers were light powers. Of course, there should be a companion 'dark side' game ... Republic Commando looks like a good FPS game, but it is still about a year away ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 i would have thought a COUNTER STRIKE style realistic Imperials vs Rebels mod would have appeared by now.... You may be right about JK, athough i think it was new and inventive enough to avoid most criticism... JO comes across an incremental upgrade from JK (or downgrade ) so people probably expect more in terms of gameplay polish and balancing.... Why do all jedi wear desert robes? doesn't make sense to me... just cos obi had one in Ep4... i never assumed then that it was their uniform... more that he was an old guy living in the desert. The more i see of Ep1 Jedi, the more i like the ep4-6 versions... I'd think that what needs to be balanced is Force vs Blasters, rather than Sabers vs Blasters. After all, as far as we can tell from the movies, most blaster wielders are non force users. I'd split it into a choice of Weapon Skills vs Force powers and Sabers vs Armour. Eg: For every force power you pick you loose a weapon skill (and the ability to use that weapon) This leads to those with lots of force powers who can only use lightsaber and pistol, those who can use all weapons, but only about 1 level 1 force power, and those that are a mixture of average force powers and a few weapon types. Armour would be an aditional 100% of protection, but only available to those who dont have a saber (hard to fight acrobatically with armour). It would be effective against guns and some force powers. Saber styles should all deal the same damage, but the slower more powerful styles should have better shield and armour penetration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 I would love to see a 'Light Jedi' game - but separate from the Jedi Knight series. Of course, what this means is that I still want Obi-Wan for the PC, done better than it was for the XBox ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Obi-Wan was doomed from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by Emon Obi-Wan was doomed from the start. Shhh ... this is video game land, right - a world of pure fantasy ? Let me enjoy mine for a moment .... To toms point - I wonder if RepComm will be like the game you describe? There is too little detail to know right now. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan That's actually a good theory. However, like it or not, DarkForces/Jedi Knight/etc is an official part of the Expanded Universe now, and if you recall, in the Expanded Universe (due again to the fact that the authors didn't know GL's plans for the prequels when they wrote their stuff, and can't change it now) Jedi are not limited to wearing bland desert robes and swinging only blue or green (or purple if you're Mace Windu) lightsabers as their only weapon. The game could be done as some have said, with only a variety of blasters (as in the movies.. since there's very few different types of hand weapons used in the films), a thermal detonator and a few lightsaber variants. But why isn't that a good idea? Because the series has conditioned people to EXPECT expanded universe weapons to be included, for the sake of variety, fun, balance, etc. It would ruin the whole continuity. A "Purist Jedi" game doesn't belong in the Jedi Knight series continuity. A "Purist Gunner" game will be made however, and that's Republic Commando. ; ) I wasn't disagreeing with that. I for one like the way that the JK series differs from the Prequels (it is a different era, after all), and I like that it is part of the EU. I was refering to others (fanboys) that insist on changing the whole history and themes of the JK series to reflect the Jedi they see in the Prequels. I disagree with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I wasn't disagreeing with that. I for one like the way that the JK series differs from the Prequels (it is a different era, after all), and I like that it is part of the EU. I was refering to others (fanboys) that insist on changing the whole history and themes of the JK series to reflect the Jedi they see in the Prequels. I disagree with them As someone who very much likes the prequels, particularly EpII (my fave of the 5) (despite growing up with the SW trilogy, I don't feel Lucas has 'raped my childhood' as some say), I completely agree. The JK series is all about the post-RotJ world, in which you take Luke's view and work with what you have, but do it for the light side. Sure I tend to play it more like ObiWan from EpII, but that is my personal style, not anything I'd mandate for others. One of the coolest things about MP is that variety. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 As someone who very much likes the prequels, particularly EpII (my fave of the 5) (despite growing up with the SW trilogy, I don't feel Lucas has 'raped my childhood' as some say)... I like them to, perhaps because they are different from the original trilogy. But I recognize that the JK series takes place in a different time, and follow different "rules" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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