Emon Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think we need some feedback. I know some of Raven's employees read these forums, and I know some of them see the real suggestions and bug/balance lists, and ignore the trash around here... I'm sure they've discussed at least somewhat the problems the players have been talking about, and their possible fixes. I think what we need is for Raven to tell us their proposed plan to fix the problems (when that time comes), and get the community's input on that. Of course, they're not going to go with everything some random guy suggest, but it would be my hope that someone's comments or thoughts would get Raven thinking of their own solutions. What do you guys think? I think this could help a great deal. I hope Raven can do something like this, but they might have to keep their mouthes shut because of legal issues, or maybe I'm just speaking to deaf ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I agree that people in Raven Software who visit forums need to give the fans some feedback. We're the ones buying, they could at least listen to what we request. But they must have been listening somewhat since they added a proper "bow" animation in multiplayer duel modes. Although you'll still have to kneel and look at the ground in FFA duels. Plus they added the meditate animation after seeing how popular it was in the admin/emote mods. Although I see no use of it in duel mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariners2001 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I definitely agree Emon. If they have to make a patch, they might as well work with the customers to get it right.....I mean, it's only logical after the chaos with JO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think LEC pulled the plug on Raven's patches because they wanted them to work on JA. Mike mentioned a "secret project" several times after JO was released, I think JA had been decided since the JO story was written (how Tavion escaped). I think JO could have been patched to perfection if the plug wasn't pulled. However, patching and getting user input isn't a very fast or efficient way, in my eyes. I think it's easier to do it this way. Like I said, sure, don't do what some guy says, but just consider what the people are saying, and then go find the answer your self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy1984 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I agree, however it seems from what i've seen anybody the slightest sort of constructive criticism or ideas how to make the game better seems to get shot down on this board quite frequently and told to 'adapt to the game' . But yeah, I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I disagree. First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!" Secondly, it would put Raven in a tuff situation. People would get very upset if they ever had to pull a proposed patch feature for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Yes, Emon, I agree there should be more communication between Raven and the community and less of certain parts of the community demanding certain changes to the gameplay in a patch that should be made immediately, or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by razorace I disagree. First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!" Secondly, it would put Raven in a tuff situation. People would get very upset if they ever had to pull a proposed patch feature for whatever reason. I think Emon is talking more about more communication so that people can let Raven know of certain things, and Raven can then decide whther to do anything about it, and if they do decide to do something, what they will do. As he said: Originally posted by EmonLike I said, sure, don't do what some guy says, but just consider what the people are saying, and then go find the answer your self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Major reason why this game will never get the support from devs that other games do: Licensed property, more specific, LEC/Star wars material. I do, unlike a lot of people, understand that even if they wanted to make a lot of changes, they don't have the direct authority to make it happen. And while I do think they have made one of the most innovative games in recent years, hell ever for that matter (Jedi Outcast), I think it was blatantly obvious that this game (Academy) was never really play tested. When things like: Random instant kill lighting Random instant kill kicks Random saber returns doing instant kills (after it gets lost) Are found by players in a matter of *hours after being released, and things like: The rocket homing bug from JO we have told them about hundreds of times The invisible player models that were accidentally allowed in JO MP, yet again being over looked and being available in JA I'm simply not going to buy any serious depth was put into play testing this final build. I also think Raven has done a horrible job listening to their player base when bugs are found. The JO/JA rocket bug, the JO 100+ grip glitch, take your pick. They were constantly informed of these and many others but never did a thing about them. When the patches did come, or in this case a new game, these bugs were still present. Why? It's not like they can say no one ever told them... So just please release the tools the mod makers need and yet again, another retail game will be fixed by the people who play it (anyone else notice this trend becoming quite common in retail games?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by razorace I disagree. First off, players aren't game designers. They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games. Plus, many gamers have a pretty limited view of indivdual games. Often they will give a bais to "their" favorite race/stance/gamemode/etc and make their statements accordingly. "OMG! The Terrans/blue stance/etc SUCKS!" But they are customers, don't forget that. You can preach all you want about "they are the artist, they know the trade better", but if a company does give the customer (players) what they want, you get returning customers. And this: "They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games.” Is just plain ignorant or very self absorbed. Why do you think so many Big Hollywood blockbusters flop? The majority of the main stream movie industry is totally out of touch with the people buying tickets. You see this in almost all commercial entertainment these days, music and more recently, gaming. You look at some of the most successful gaming companies in this industry, id software, Valve, Blizzard, and you are going to find some of the best customer support around. Long after sales die for their releases, they patch and fix problems and are very involved in the "grass roots" aspect of community involvement. And hell look at Valve. Did they say "They don't know how to design/make fun and interesting games.”? Nope. And they got the worlds most successful online multi player game associated with their product (and later acquired the rights and profits for retail versions) for being open minded and letting the community show them what they wanted out of a game. Counter-Strike anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed Major reason why this game will never get the support from devs that other games do: Licensed property, more specific, LEC/Star wars material. I do, unlike a lot of people, understand that even if they wanted to make a lot of changes, they don't have the direct authority to make it happen. And while I do think they have made one of the most innovative games in recent years, hell ever for that matter (Jedi Outcast), I think it was blatantly obvious that this game (Academy) was never really play tested. When things like: Random instant kill lighting Random instant kill kicks Random saber returns doing instant kills (after it gets lost) Are found by players in a matter of *hours after being released, and things like: The rocket homing bug from JO we have told them about hundreds of times The invisible player models that were accidentally allowed in JO MP, yet again being over looked and being available in JA I'm simply not going to buy any serious depth was put into play testing this final build. I also think Raven has done a horrible job listening to their player base when bugs are found. The JO/JA rocket bug, the JO 100+ grip glitch, take your pick. They were constantly informed of these and many others but never did a thing about them. When the patches did come, or in this case a new game, these bugs were still present. Why? It's not like they can say no one ever told them... So just please release the tools the mod makers need and yet again, another retail game will be fixed by the people who play it (anyone else notice this trend becoming quite common in retail games?) Eh, from what I can tell, this thread is meant to help establish a connection with Raven so what you have mentioned does not happen again. Try offering some creative criticism, instead of your whining and complaining...if you want Raven to listen you have to try and talk with them not demand that they make certain changes because the "we, players are the ones who know what we're doing and what is best for your game and you, the developer, of your game, do not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Well, you're right. Developers do need to be "in touch" with their customers. I was simply pointing out that general gaming population really doesn't think all their gameplay suggestions through before demanding them. The general gaming community didn't come up with CounterStrike or any of the other popular mods; Selecti individuals did. These individuals probably did took input from the public, made some judgement calls and made some sweet mods. Making Raven consult with the community before releasing patches would hamper their ability to make judgement calls that make the game a fun experience for everyone. It's pretty obvious from JKA, the JK2 patches, the occasional Raven forum posts, and my email communications with Raven that they do listen to the community. Just because they don't fix every preceived "bug" doesn't mean that they are ignoring everyone. That being said, I do agree that Raven should be more open with the community. This crap about not even being able to confirm/deny that a patch is going to be released or when the SDK can be expected SUCKS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Gabrobot, Can you el-ready English? I cut them a hell of a lot more slack than most of you because I know they can't comment due to legal reasons, let alone do anything about it if they wanted to. And I also give them credit for their creative and damn near brilliant concepts they came up with in JO (JA is the same basic formula so no reason to comment on that). But the fact remains they have been made aware of several bugs in the past that never were fixed and when a patch did come, it was a rushed 1/2 ass quick fix for just a few things. When they are made aware of serious legitimate bugs over and over but just rush a patch out the door that fixes 1-2 things I'm not going to give them a gold star. Nor am I going to do a little dance to show my gratitude when there are a ton of bugs that some 14 year old kid in the middle of BFE Ohio (you figure out the BFE part) finds after only playing the final retail version for an hour, yet I'm supposed to believe there was months and months of extensive product testing done? This is basic, bare bones *quality control we are talking about. Even the damn fruit of the loom underwear people have a guy inspecting every pair of drawers going by on the line and putting a sticker of approval on them *only after they have been checked for defects. I know bugs are going to be found but if you are making the same mistakes you did a year ago (invisible models in MP), not to mention having bugs present that people found in only a matter of minutes of game play (the lightning), just shoot straight with people and say "Yeah we almost did not make the dead line so we rushed it with out extensive testing and we know there are a lot of bugs, so we promise to continually support our player base and correct these problems as they are found". But then again if you have enough consumers who are willing to just be spoon fed any crap put in their face and never demand a higher quality of product why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial_thug Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 It's impossible for Raven to be "in touch", there's too many conflicting opinions about how the game "should be". It's impossible for them to make everyone happy. I think the best thing they could do is just make a game and NOT listen to the fans. They could just make it how they want it to be and then we all could learn to live with it, I think that would help things tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 heh, read my last sentence then read his post.. you can't say I'm out of touch with the way a lot of people think around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed [snip] One thing I find kind of ironic, is that this is a forum about a Star Wars game, and that the original Star Wars movies weren't great because George Lucas had the people who would watch his movie, tell him what to put in it...he made what he imagined, and there were (and are) many people who like his vision, although there are people who don't. Now, I'm not saying that means that Raven should ignore people’s comments, but Raven should make their own decisions and stick with their vision. I am not really very familiar with the bugs which you mentioned (I've never encountered them), but they sound like the result of lag, and things I don't really see how they could easily change (the invisible player thing has to do with shader properties...it would screw up the shaders for the level if they disabled transparency stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I personally feel that game makers should fix their games before they go out and make money on the next one. I have faith in Raven, I think that they are working on the bugs right now and maybe they aren't reading our posts...but they probably get hundreds of email complaints. I'm sure they are doing their best. The game has only been out how many days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I ask Rich Whitehouse about a patch. He said "no comment." This was after I asked if he could confirm, deny, or not talk about a upcoming patch. As such, I beleive they are simply waiting for clearance to get some patches out. Damn legal crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 They should come here and read the bug threads and fix them, after all if everyone complains about missing models in MP or bad performance with their top-of-the-range graphics card then they are bugs, code problems. They should NOT come here and read the "we want" threads and modify the game accordingly, all those threads about "we want kick back" have to be ignored. Why? Because they removed it and if they add it now they're doing it because some people asked for it - some people will get pi**ed off if it comes back again. If they had added kick to start and a lot of people requested it removed they couldn't have. I don't know how many of you understand this but Raven can fix bugs, not fix personal bugs. Tell them the game crashes and they should fix it, tell them 85% of the community want X in the game and they should not - and probably cannot. Once you start listening to a group of people, others feel betrayed and ignored so the second they listen to any "we wants" they'll have some very angry customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Well, Lucasarts will have to give the go-ahead for at least one patch, because at the moment there are some people who simply cannot even play the game. Either it crashes on load, or it crashes half-way through. Hopefully someone from Raven or Lucasarts has been reading the Bug thread stuck at the top of this forum. If not - then we'll have to look at condensing all the information in there into an error report, and send them that. Games with bugs should be fixed. When it comes to player preferences about X or Y, then that should be taken with a pinch of salt. People should learn to use the game mechanics in the game, and actually play the game for a couple of months. If, after that time, a serious flaw in the gameplay mechanics is still apparent, only then should it be fixed in a further patch. Patch number one should fix the game so that people can actually play MP and SP smoothly and without glitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think Raven has learned their lesson with the JK2 patches. They know the difference between bug fixes and gameplay changes that will anger more people than they satisfy. And they understand that big as our community seems, we are only a fraction of the overall JA community. Of course, they are also beholden to do whatever LA compels them to do with the game... in the end. I agree though, hearing their opinions and explanations as to why they did or will do such and such a thing is always nice to hear, just for piece of mind. As for me, I never denied there were bugs in the game (I've even sent some in), I just continued to resist the "jump ship now the sky is falling" people demanding "game balance fixes" and requests for changes of that sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Took the words right out of my mouth. Really, bugs and crashing issues should be the priority. Also, not only does Lucasarts decide if there is a patch or not, they also decide what sorts of things go into the patch. This may mean that there is a patch, but it only fixes bugs, and does not alter gameplay. Regardless of whether there is or isn't a patch, I'll adapt regardless. I did in JO and I will in JA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 ''The chaos with JO'' What chaos? JO was excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manquesa Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Well, Lucasarts will have to give the go-ahead for at least one patch, because at the moment there are some people who simply cannot even play the game. Either it crashes on load, or it crashes half-way through. Hopefully someone from Raven or Lucasarts has been reading the Bug thread stuck at the top of this forum. If not - then we'll have to look at condensing all the information in there into an error report, and send them that. Games with bugs should be fixed. When it comes to player preferences about X or Y, then that should be taken with a pinch of salt. People should learn to use the game mechanics in the game, and actually play the game for a couple of months. If, after that time, a serious flaw in the gameplay mechanics is still apparent, only then should it be fixed in a further patch. Patch number one should fix the game so that people can actually play MP and SP smoothly and without glitches. http://www.ravenforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2531 A patch will be made according to this thread on Raven Forums. Don't know what will be in the patch other than a fix to the server list problem in MP, but just wait and it will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 ''The chaos with JO'' What chaos? JO was excellent. I was referring to the floods of complaints and incessant whining on LucasForums (I can't say about the rest of the online community because I was here through 99% of it) for a patch, then when the patch came, the flood of whines and complaints about what the patch did wrong or didn't fix, repeated ad naseum with each patch and continued afterward, eventually subsiding only when it was clear no more patches were coming. We're seeing the same thing with JA, although it seems the whining is less abundant this time around. As to some of the folks that are not in touch with what it takes to design a game... just look at some of the "purist fanboy" comments made about how this or that is not "Jedi-like behavior" etc. The people who, by their own logic, would never have picked up the Dark Forces series in the first place because it wasn't "just like the movies." A lot of these folks are more concerned with "what makes me look cool in front of my friends" rather than what makes a fun and balanced game for the majority of buyers. That is why Raven (and rightfully so) takes those people's suggestions with a heavy dose of salt. Notice how in that thread you posted from raven's forums they start off all well and good talking about bugs and a patch, then people immediately jump in with the "OMG THE DOUBLESABER IS OVERPOWER3D FIX IT NOW!" BS. ; p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.