Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Okay, I just finished watching the fan film "Art of the Saber" on TheForce.net fan films... http://www.theforce.net/theater/fxprojects/artofthesaber/index.shtml I admit I enjoyed it, as far as SW fan films go it was pretty good. Not as entertaining as Troops, but I always enjoy a lightsaber battle. The guys in it did some nice moves too. However, I have been hearing people claim that this is what Raven "Ripped Off" to make Jedi Academy. To that I say... nonesense (I almost used a more colorful phrase, but you get the picture). Why do I say this? At first glance you might think that those accusations have merit. Just look at the screen cap that's posted on the short film's download page on TFN. It shows a guy crouching with two sabers in his hands in a position not unlike the pose that we see in Jedi Academy as you do the Dual Saber Barrier. And look at the date.... 2001, clearly before Jedi Outcast (2002) and Jedi Academy (2003)! But watch the film... not to spoil it (If you haven't seen the film, give up now and stop reading.... okay you had your chance)... The saber barrier move is NOT in the film! This "pose" is all he does. He doesn't throw his sabers. And while I'm not a huge martial arts movie afficianado, I've seen enough Jackie Chan and and Jet Li to know that that pose was NOT made up by the creators of 'Art of the Saber' and those films predate Jedi Outcast. Not only that but the "Death From Above" (so called by many fans) move featured prominently in Jedi Outcast also appeared a few months later (JK2 was released in March) in Attack of the Clones (which premiered in May). So either Lucas got wind of Raven's design doc and concept art and took his executive privilege or else the Raven team got wind of some Episode II exclusives and incorporated them into the game. But surely nobody would accuse Lucas of "stealing" or "ripping off" Raven now would they just because the moves were similar? Finally, watch the fight in the short film and you won't see anything remotely "ripped off" in Jedi Academy. Oh wait, you say, one guy used a Saberstaff vs. a single saber guy, that proves it's a rip off! No it doesn't... all it proves is that in 2001, Darth Maul's saberstaff was just as popular with fans if not more so than when it was used by Exar Kun in the expanded universe years earlier. Proves nothing... And a purple lightsaber? Seen it. The EU has featured mutiple saber colors not seen in the movies for nearly a decade. Another neat trick is that the saberstaff guy "breaks" his saberstaff into two sabers! Wow! This was a "feature" shown in the JA pre-alpha that was shown at E3 and elsewhere but it was only a cheat. It never made it into the final game. And I'm sure it's not so hard a thing to think up. And the use of two sabers at once is nothing new. We saw that in the 1997 classic Jedi Knight game (and they were two purple blades used by a "bad guy" at that!). And the final thing that might lead some people to cry "rip off" is the presence of the various "butterfly" twirling cartwheel jumps we see used in the short film. Sorry... doesn't fly with me either. Not only did we see concept shots from Episode I of Ray Park (as Darth Maul) doing them way back in 1999, but that "move" has been in plenty of popular films... the Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Blade, etc. all of which came before the fan film. Even KillBill (which I saw Halloween night) featured those moves. It just looks cool and it's not unthinkable that Raven decided to put it in the game. It was in JK2, but it was just an AI only move (a few mods made it usable by players of course). I saw a few "hand twirls" done with the sabers, but again, those are in a lot of sword fighting movies made long before this.. Highlander comes prominently to mind. That some of these were added in Jedi Academy in no way suggests they "ripped off" this fan film. So to sum up: great fan film, but I think those claiming Raven got their inspiration for Jedi Outcast from it are stretching a few superficial similarities to the breaking point to make a tenuous case. I think that they pulled more inspiration from the Bushido Blade games and Episode I (and possibly some advanced bits from Episode II) honestly, to add to the already established system in Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith to make Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. Not to mention their experience making a melee/magic game with Heretic II years earlier on the Quake2 engine. Most of the "seeds" of the features they added for JA were already in JK2 (like the saberstaff). So if JA was a ripoff, then JK2 must have been as well... but I think I've made a good case that this isn't assured. Apart from a Raven confession, I'm going to assume it's merely coincidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Yes, I was the one who posted about the "Rip Off" in the Swamp. Really, what I was trying to convey(sp?) is that it 'looked' like JA ripped off a few moves from AotS, not that I was condemming(sp?) Raven for stealing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Yeah I saw that post and another on another forum by another person claiming that they did rip them off. As you can see I've shown ways in which those things don't necessarily have to be "rip off's." It's just as illogical to say that the creators of Art of the Saber ripped those moves off of popular movies already out at the time. The only thing original they did was to put lightsabers into the fight instead of swords or other melee weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Kurgan, I do believe you're talking out of your @$$. (For those of you who haven't watched The Shawshank Redemption, disregard the above.) It may not necessarily be totally ripped off, but it's still looked like that one of the devs had seen the movie and based move(s) on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Ok I'll bite.. which moves did he use to put into JA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Kurgan, you're going to hate me for this because I do like to get techincal in these things. I did specify some of this, but this time I decided to give a timeline. (4:01/4:02) Looks like a strong stance horizontal slice to me. (3:59)One of the dual saber taunts in JA is an actual "phantom" attack in AotS. (3:56) One of the swings used by the dual saber is the standard forward/backward swing used. (3:53) Modified version of the SP dual saber defensive barrier (crouch + forward + attack). (3:25) Ahh yes, the dual saber kata position... It's not that hard to then suddenly animate it into a kata (think about it, there's no actual move that comes out of it other then a spring into the air). (3:18) While I'm not going to argue with you on Darth Maul's style, I will argue with you on Anakin's, since there were no cartwheels or force augmented manuevers presented in Anakin/Dooku. Therefore, this cartwheel is considered added. (2:31) Strong style kata, in all it's glory (1:52) Opening of the Medium Style kata (1:51/1:52) Dual-Bladed saber spinning move? (I know it appears in a chain, I'll specify later) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Talk about ludicrous. I thought about this when I read this thread: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-09-08&res=l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Kurgan, you're going to hate me for this because I do like to get techincal in these things. I did specify some of this, but this time I decided to give a timeline. (4:01/4:02) Looks like a strong stance horizontal slice to me. (3:59)One of the dual saber taunts in JA is an actual "phantom" attack in AotS. (3:56) One of the swings used by the dual saber is the standard forward/backward swing used. (3:53) Modified version of the SP dual saber defensive barrier (crouch + forward + attack). (3:25) Ahh yes, the dual saber kata position... It's not that hard to then suddenly animate it into a kata (think about it, there's no actual move that comes out of it other then a spring into the air). (3:18) While I'm not going to argue with you on Darth Maul's style, I will argue with you on Anakin's, since there were no cartwheels or force augmented manuevers presented in Anakin/Dooku. Therefore, this cartwheel is considered added. (2:31) Strong style kata, in all it's glory (1:52) Opening of the Medium Style kata (1:51/1:52) Dual-Bladed saber spinning move? (I know it appears in a chain, I'll specify later) Um, may I ask you a question? Why the hell would Raven, a professional game developer with more experience than most game companies except id software, go to all the trouble of carefully examining a fan film frame by frame to get the ideas for the moves in JKII and JA? Besides, most of the moves were actually motion captured by professional martial art performers for Lucasarts, who gave the animations to Raven who tweaked and merged them to make the animations used in game. This is what most modern melee games do, like The Return of the King LotR game coming out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow_Nest Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 All of the saber moves and some of the acrobatics are from JA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tito Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Any of y'all ever seen Duality? There's a few moves there that are also seen in JA... C'mon, they didn't rip anything off... Why would they? (By the way, if you havn't seen Duality, I highly recommend that you do: http://www.crewoftwo.com ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bifford Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Isn't it conceivable that Raven simply studied some real-world swordfighting styles - or even hired a martial arts consultant - when designing the lightsaber combat? Why would they just watch Hong Kong movies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedClown Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Could someone please tell me which player I need for this? The Windows M-Players doesn't seem to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tito Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Quicktime, I guess (can't exactly remember)... That is available at http://www.quicktime.com! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Hmmm.... Duality wasne't the best by far, sure it had good efx, but the saber fighting sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 the ripoff question is pretty moot. it doesn't really matter if they did rip them off, the fanfilms are inherently LA property therefore raven could have used them if they wanted to. not to mention all those moves are all from real world martial arts. do you really think that GL would make up a new martial art for some movies and games? no way, it takes decades to get them established. all they did was mocap real world martial arts moves and techniques. same with MK and Soul Calibur and the like. in the end, who really cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 If I was making a game featuring lightsaber fighting (or swordfighting), I doubt I would rely on a "cheaply" made fanfilm when I have the entire history of martial arts movies at my disposal. I doubt the fanfilmers came up with everything themselves... Plus I find it funny that probably many of the people would get upset over something like this don't think twice about downloading music and movies over the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedClown Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 1.) Thanks to Tito for that link....could finally watch that movie. 2.) that little piece of lightsaber-fighting was fresh. I really enjoyed it and I'd be definately happy if JA had this style of fighting (although I doubt that a game could be made with such control over the saber/sword...would be awesome though). 3.) Did Raven rip something off? Maybe, but with the wide world of martial arts at hand, they probably didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darf Seddeas Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 i kno exactly whut u mean. I saw this fan film a while back and then i saw JA an i sed "OMG OGM JA STOAL EVRYTHIN FROM TAHT THERE FAN FILME OMG" fan filme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by 2 Darf 2 Sideus i kno exactly whut u mean. I saw this fan film a while back and then i saw JA an i sed "OMG OGM JA STOAL EVRYTHIN FROM TAHT THERE FAN FILME OMG" fan filme gf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 not to mention all those moves are all from real world martial arts. do you really think that GL would make up a new martial art for some movies and games? no way, it takes decades to get them established. all they did was mocap real world martial arts moves and techniques. same with MK and Soul Calibur and the like. My point exactly. I'm sure the guys who made 'Art of the Saber' if they knew anything about martial arts at all just used stock "moves" from the repetoires of what they knew. Movies do the same thing, GL does the same thing and Raven probably did as well (and the motion capture actors they used if any, etc). I'm not a martial artist, but I did take fencing and in fencing you have "positions" or "poses" (sorry forget the exact terminology, it was a long time ago), but suffice to say, you aren't usually making up new moves, you're just repeating moves that other people have practiced and mastered for centuries. And yes, while the fan films are probably up for grabs with LA, the martial arts "moves" are also public domain if I'm not mistaken. If you throw a punch that Bruce Lee "invented" does his estate get to sue you? in the end, who really cares? At least two other people besides me (including a clanmate of your's) and everybody who responded I imagine. ; ) Heh, about the comic. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Awesome fan film...BEAUTIFUL...won't comment on the simmilarities...great link IDon'tLikeGeorge... eniaC The fact is these guys may actually know how to use a real sword might come into play...Is it possible they are on the design team for the game(appologize in advance if thats a stupid question). That Duel Dual taunt looked identical to the game, never seen it in any movie, real swordplay or what have you, (may have seen someone pull it off w/ sai's, can't remember. Great Fan Film, at the top with Troops in my opinion . eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 You mean the move where he crouches with legs splayed out (one in front, one in back) and one hand pointed forward, one pointed back? IIRC I've seen Jet Li do that move in the movie "The One." Just put two toy lightsabers in his hands and you've got it. I assumed it was a common martial arts "pose" (or figure, whatever they call it in the particular martial art), and these guys, maybe knowing something about martial arts just copied it with the sabers in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryyn Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 The best fanfilm by far is A question of faith at theforce.net. The lightsaber fights and acrobatics are really well done. Also off the topic is the Batman dead end film thats there also its the best batman on film in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 IIRC I've seen Jet Li do that move in the movie "The One." And when did that movie come out? Sorry, I had to post that. Boy, this thread's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by WickedClown Did Raven rip something off? Maybe, but with the wide world of martial arts at hand, they probably didn't. Exactly. I mean, considering "lightsaber" combat for the choreography in the movies is based off existing martial arts and fencing styles - why didn't the "fan film" get bashed for ripping off them? I mean, lightsabers are owned by the Great George himself. And they had the gall to portray their own lightsabers. Pffbt. Shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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