TK-8252 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by g//plaZma Are you telling me every newcomer has been reading forums and stuff about honor? Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in... Originally posted by g//plaZma You know damn well what I mean. The game has a chat option, true but the most I've ever chatted at once was just a few words. Knowing how to use the chat button didn't exactly get me in any clans. Aren't you in the g// clan or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I think Xmod2's approach to "honor" is so far the best I've seen in a mod yet. You'll see in the next version.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Last I heard, Xmod was still keeping the admin abuse commands. As far as I know, JAR is still the only mod which has removed the abuse commands. Although I like the language filter in one of these mods... was it Xmod? I'm praying that cHoSeN oNe will be adding a server setting which allows a player to keep their saber turned on in a Force grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Who cares about the ''amlaming'' and abuse? Isn't it worse to get kicked or banned or both at the same time rather than getting sleeped and slayed? Also a funny thing -- I got bankicked from a server yesterday before I even entered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in... If you look at the sales figures for JK2 and then look at the membership numbers for LucasForums you'll see a HUGE disparity. If even half of the million+ people who bought JK2 play multiplayer, that means that the majority of them have never posted on these forums! I run into tons of people who haven't even read the manual, much less heard of this site! The "honor" code is made-up, and you can only learn about it from talking to other people who believe in it (a minority) or reading a forum where people talk about it. The "honor code" is like an inside joke. Not funny unless you've heard the joke and understand it from somebody in the know. Personally I think the honor codes are an insult to the game and the hard work the developers put into it. Actually, I've heard of an "honor code" existing in Heretic II (melee combat + magic game made by Raven many years ago on the Quake II engine, which I never played). Heretic II from what I hear got great reviews, but mediocre sales. Due to poor marketing it never achieved the glory it deserved. It had an "honor code" because people wanted to duel without interference and apparently the game wasn't setup by default to allow this. The thing is, JK2 and JA are already setup to allow dueling without interferance (unlike say the original Jedi Knight). Thus "honor codes" are really unnecessary. They were created because people wanted to take 1% of the gameplay and do only that, most likely because they couldn't be bothered to learn to adapt to the complex tactics needed to win in a battle with all weapons and powers enabled. The folks who promote honor codes as the greatest thing since sliced bread are the same people you hear saying "OMG ABSORB IS CHEAP!" "GRIP IS UNSTOPPABLE!" "QUIT SPAMMING!" "Taht wuz LAME! YOU CHEATER!" "U scripter KICK HIM!" and other familiar cries of the whiner. The "bowing" thing probably was to signal you were ready for a duel, but it's nonesensical because in a Saber Challenge the game already says "Begin!" and ignites both your sabers. What more signal do you need that you're "ready"? And why do you have to show "respect" to a total stranger you're playing an online game with (99.99999% of people don't even use their real names as handles)? Isn't respect earned? This isn't Kendo or Fencing, this is a video game (First Person Shooter) about fragging people using Star Wars weapons! It's not even part of Star Wars to bow before a duel, or to "show honor." Just watch the films again and you'll see how the movie Jedi/Sith MISERABLY FAIL to live up to the honor codes these guys in the community claim to follow like the Gospel Truth. It's silly. TK8252MJL: In the "Criticis Corner" forum and on these forums Hex made comments that he was going to remove the abusive admin commands in the next version. He invited me to a private beta test on his server last night as well, and we talked for a bit while testing some things for the next release. Again, he said he was going to remove the abusive admin commands. Trust me on this, he's come around, he's implementing MUCH BETTER SOLUTIONS that will allow you to enforce your made-up honor codes all you want, WITHOUT resorting to the stupid pointless abuse-prone commands like amslap/slay/punish. So sure, until that version is actually released, JA Reloaded is the only non-abusive Admin Mod for JA. But not for long... That leaves only JA+ and OmNi Mod that still promote AMlaming. Maybe somebody should talk to them about improving their mods. I think that Xmod2 will pave the way for how these mods OUGHT to be done. The old ways never worked, people need to learn from their mistakes and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 And just in case you don't believe I was there (see attachment): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialForces Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan So your innendo that I don't know anything because I'm a n00b falls flat. Next time at least try to provide some evidence before you bash me for no reason. [/b] Kurgan kicks butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in... I do research about gameplay dynamics before I jump into games (Except new releases). Back when I started playing JK2, I did research on the moves, weapons, etc before playing but as I found out later, most of the moves possible to do in the game weren't even discovered/widely known. And much to my horror, there was an honor code not even talked about in the manual or any sites. Aren't you in the g// clan or something? No, /<aoticz actually but that has nothing to do with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL Although I like the language filter in one of these mods... was it Xmod? I'm praying that cHoSeN oNe will be adding a server setting which allows a player to keep their saber turned on in a Force grip. xMod 2.1.0 has both of those features already. And the abusive commands are likely to be on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Personally I think the honor codes are an insult to the game and the hard work the developers put into it. How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level... Originally posted by Kurgan They were created because people wanted to take 1% of the gameplay and do only that, most likely because they couldn't be bothered to learn to adapt to the complex tactics needed to win in a battle with all weapons and powers enabled. We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die. Originally posted by Kurgan The folks who promote honor codes as the greatest thing since sliced bread are the same people you hear saying "OMG ABSORB IS CHEAP!" "GRIP IS UNSTOPPABLE!" "QUIT SPAMMING!" "Taht wuz LAME! YOU CHEATER!" "U scripter KICK HIM!" and other familiar cries of the whiner. I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players. Originally posted by Kurgan The "bowing" thing probably was to signal you were ready for a duel, but it's nonesensical because in a Saber Challenge the game already says "Begin!" and ignites both your sabers. What more signal do you need that you're "ready"? Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me. Originally posted by Kurgan And why do you have to show "respect" to a total stranger you're playing an online game with (99.99999% of people don't even use their real names as handles)? Isn't respect earned? Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect. Originally posted by Kurgan It's not even part of Star Wars to bow before a duel, or to "show honor." Just watch the films again and you'll see how the movie Jedi/Sith MISERABLY FAIL to live up to the honor codes these guys in the community claim to follow like the Gospel Truth. This is a multiplayer video game, not a movie. As the manual says: Remember, you're playing with other people. Originally posted by Kurgan TK8252MJL Call me TK. Originally posted by Kurgan In the "Criticis Corner" forum and on these forums Hex made comments that he was going to remove the abusive admin commands in the next version. Cool! That's some good news. Originally posted by Kurgan Trust me on this, he's come around, he's implementing MUCH BETTER SOLUTIONS that will allow you to enforce your made-up honor codes all you want, WITHOUT resorting to the stupid pointless abuse-prone commands like amslap/slay/punish. I never would think of using these commands on anyone but myself, my friends, or bots. Don't assume that all honor folks are 12 year old power tripping ass****s... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level... What? Standing around and chatting is taking the game to the next level? We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die. I've seen honor FFA. It consists of combat inclosed in a small area where many people who have no idea what they are doing swing their sabers around randomly, hoping to hit someone while randomly switching force powers on and off. Uh... If someone can't take the fact that they died, shouldn't they be 1) not playing the game at all or 2) in spec mode? I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players. I've seen those quotes said many times actually, all by honor players or friends of mine (and myself) making fun of honor players. Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me. Neither do I or most other people but when it says "begin" I damn well better be ready or my turn might as well be given up. Making people wait is rude. Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect. I don't give my respect out just like that. It doesn't seem to be based on respect, which is why I use the term "honor" very loosely. Bowing seems more like a ritual that most players seem to think is necessary or the game cannot go on, and it's implanted so deep in their heads that duels cannot start without bowing that they cannot start a duel without it. I base this off the fact that I've gotten a lot of honor players mad and cursing at me but whenever I'd duel them, they'd bow and after the fight continue cursing/calling me a "lamer." This is a multiplayer video game, not a movie. As the manual says: I think Kurgan was trying to point on that most honor players are deeply into StarWars and seem to think that not bowing would make this not StarWars-like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 you shouldn't saber challenge if you aren't ready. you shouldn't come out of the spectator mode if you aren't ready and willing to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in... Aren't you in the g// clan or something? we used to be. we didn't get in it by chatting that is for sure. and we had the most popular ffa/tffa server before we switched it over to JA and later shut it down. why? we didn't allow any references to laming, honor codes, or bowing. the server was packed 24/7. another reason why? there were only 7/8 servers out there that allowed this type of ffa/tffa types of play. if that many. real ctf servers never had a real problem with honor nubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Rumor wtf, i am waiting for the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor We challenged you months ago. You never responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level... What about the people who love the game so much they practice and get good at it, not just one small aspect of it (NF saber fighting) but the whole thing? Are their desires worthless or inferior? "Honor" in JA/JK2 is the equivalent of paring down the game of Football (American for you soccer fans) to "playing catch." Playing catch can be quite fun and relaxing, however it is intended as a training mechanism to improve your skills that are applicable in the real game. The same is true for saber challenge dueling. It's applicable as training your saber fighting skills for use in other game types. Granted though there is a gametype that features ONLY dueling, and that's... Duel. The trouble is the "Honor" folks are taking one bonus feature of FFA (the saber challenge) and eliminating all other aspects of the game in favor of this feature, then heaping derision on the rest fo the community who isn't so (for lack of a better term) "narrow minded." It's not taking it to the next level, it's taking it DOWN several notches. The people who "take it to the next level" would be the tournament winners, the CPL pros and that sort of thing. I suppose in a different way the RPG players might be taking it to a new level, but one that the developers of the game never intended.... We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die. Hey, that's cool. At least you admit there are other legitimate ways to play rather than the "honor or nothing" attitude exhibited by far too many "h0n0r d00dz." I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players. Good, because the large number that do say these things give the general impression that "h0n0r d00dz" are a bunch of self-righteous sore-losers who want to force their beliefs on everyone else. ; p That's why many of us cringe when we hear somebody mention "honor" and "JA" or "JK2" in the same sentence. Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me. When the gun goes off the race has begun. Nobody cares if you're not ready... YOU LOSE! The other guys are racing. The flag goes down and everybody sets off. If you just stand there like an idiot, well, you just screwed up, better luck next time. In a friendly pickup game, it's just rude and annoying not to be ready at the start like everyone else. As a participant in a competition (yes, a Duel is a competition, by definition!), it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO BE READY when the game tells you to start. Besides, there is a delay of what.. 2 seconds between the time the other person accepts and you can actually start fighting? That's adequate time to get "ready." What do you need to do that's so important before the duel? If your controls aren't set, don't challenge the person until that part is completed, don't be rude wasting their time. Or just suck it up and fight, and when you die, fix it then. If bowing is simply tapping the crouch key, that takes what.. 1/5 a second? It's not like you need to elaborately waste time then wait for them to do it. Just fight already... It's bad enough having to wait in line for Duels, but when you have to spend time with all these elaborate rituals it just gets even more silly (doesn't matter if you're the only people on the server of course). Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect. Yeah, but the "h0n0r d00dz" always want you to bow first and they assume if you don't bow that you're a "lamer" and try to get you kicked or gang up on you. ; p If he wants to bow to me fine, but why do I have to bow to him? Maybe I don't care about respect in a video game. He can show me respect by beating me, not by aiming his mouse downward or tapping the crouch key. I never would think of using these commands on anyone but myself, my friends, or bots. Don't assume that all honor folks are 12 year old power tripping ass****s... No, but the ones that abuse these commands tend to conjure up that image in our minds. They may not really all be bratty 12 year old's, but they have the same maturity level. ; p The commands are too much of a temptation for people, that's why they should be taken out or reserved for a "cheats mode" (like devmap). The fact is too many admins can't handle them in a responsible manner. And since we have no way to screen out the bad admins (there's no age restriction, background checks, etc for people wanting to host servers or give out subadmin positions)... it's much easier just not to give them these powers in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 actually the whole concept of the challenge is for when a leading player wants to see if he is better than another. its not meant to be used constantly. think of it as a "score settler" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL ...never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players. I respectfully could not disagree more strongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 bowing is still gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed bowing is still gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 actually the whole concept of the challenge is for when a leading player wants to see if he is better than another. its not meant to be used constantly. think of it as a "score settler" Conceded. I should have said "duels in general" (ie: the dueling gametype). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Granted though there is a gametype that features ONLY dueling, and that's... Duel. Great thing about FFA mode... you can have MULTIPLE people dueling, and you are able to move freely around the map and engage in a real FFA, RPing, or private chats. Originally posted by Kurgan I suppose in a different way the RPG players might be taking it to a new level, but one that the developers of the game never intended.... RPers have imagination. Anything wrong with that? They can think outside of the game. Originally posted by Kurgan When the gun goes off the race has begun. Nobody cares if you're not ready... YOU LOSE! The other guys are racing. This is a video game... not a professional sporting event. Originally posted by Kurgan The flag goes down and everybody sets off. If you just stand there like an idiot, well, you just screwed up, better luck next time. Not if everyone else just stands there "like an idiot". Originally posted by Kurgan In a friendly pickup game, it's just rude and annoying not to be ready at the start like everyone else. Bowing is rude? Originally posted by Kurgan It's bad enough having to wait in line for Duels, but when you have to spend time with all these elaborate rituals it just gets even more silly (doesn't matter if you're the only people on the server of course). This is one of the things the admin mods are for! Multiple duels at once! And waiting in line to duel in the duel gamemode is another reason why the "honor style" servers set up an FFA, not duel mode. Originally posted by Kurgan Yeah, but the "h0n0r d00dz" always want you to bow first and they assume if you don't bow that you're a "lamer" and try to get you kicked or gang up on you. ; p Not where I play... Originally posted by Kurgan If he wants to bow to me fine, but why do I have to bow to him? You don't have to (where I play, at least). Originally posted by Kurgan They may not really all be bratty 12 year old's, but they have the same maturity level. ; p I know that AmosMagee, M. Chrono, and ShroomDuck don't act like 12 year old brats, that's for sure. Originally posted by Kurgan The fact is too many admins can't handle them in a responsible manner. True. And it's pretty sad, really. Originally posted by Kurgan it's much easier just not to give them these powers in the first place. Well if no one comes to their server due to abuse, maybe they'll get the idea. Boycotts have worked before, and they'll work now! Originally posted by FK | unnamed bowing is still gay. You have a right to your opinion, but why must it be expressed with vulgar language? It just shows that you cannot find proper adjectives to describe your feelings towards something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 key phrase: outside of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by TK8252MJL Great thing about FFA mode... you can have MULTIPLE people dueling, and you are able to move freely around the map and engage in a real FFA, RPing, or private chats. That's perfectly valid, however, it's chaos if everybody is doing something differnet. That's why the game is normally setup so that the majority of people are actually playing (FFA), with maybe one or two people spectating (to chat) and one pair of people "dueling" (saber challenge). Server's that try to be a RPG-room, chatroom, dueling room AND FFA all at once follow the age-old saying... "jack of all trades.. master of none." Can you say "lag"? I knew you could. Besides, it's inevitable that those RPGers, chatters, duelists and FFAers are going to get in each other's way and then you'll have whining, cussing and call-vote kicking. ; p Better to have a specialized server that supports one type of gameplay. RPers have imagination. Anything wrong with that? They can think outside of the game. LARPING in a first person shooter is a bad idea. Why? Because the game is not setup or intended for that kind of use. Take it to a place suited to role playing, such as an RPG newgroup, chatroom or actual LARP. Or maybe even an RPG online game (there are dozens out there, even ones that are... gasp! free!). There's even Star Wars role playing games! And are you saying that non-RPG players lack imagination? Frankly, imagination or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. It's that the game was made for people to FIGHT and BATTLE in, and that's what the majority of people seek to do and want to do. The few RPGers and "h0n0r d00dz" just get in the way. If they want to do it on their own private specialized servers, fine, but they have this attitude that the worlds owes them and they need to convert the world to their style of "play." This is a video game... not a professional sporting event. This is a first person shooter, not a LARP. This is a video game, not IRC. This is about defeating your enemies to score points, not show who is more "honorable." And with things like CPL and large organized tournaments, you can make it a "professional sporting event." Or are you going to assert that only RPG players and "h0n0r d00dz" are in it to have fun? For most online gamers competition = fun! Bowing is rude? In a manner of speaking, yes, yes it is. When you're waiting in line for a duel, you expect the people ahead of you to play, and get their battle over with so you can have your turn. It's common courtesy. If they waste time chatting, bowing and doing elaborate rituals (ie: anything other than fighting) their wasting YOUR TIME. You may like to wait while they do all this extra stuff that has no effect on the battle whatsoever, but most people don't. You have to wait long enough as it is, without all this gabbing and crouch button tapping or people whining that they're "not ready" and that they were "lamed" and therefore deserve another chance (again while everyone else waits). This is one of the things the admin mods are for! Multiple duels at once! And waiting in line to duel in the duel gamemode is another reason why the "honor style" servers set up an FFA, not duel mode. The trouble is people (mis)use FFA as a dueling server, and they wait in line for saber challenges. It's just like a Dueling server only laggier (since you have to render all those bodies with their sabers off and the glowy shaders around the duelists, plus the fact that FFA maps are much bigger and more complex than Duel maps, which are just arenas meant for 2-3 people to fight in). The "multi duel allowed in FFA" option is fine. I can see how that would save waiting in line, however the majority of "honor" servers don't seem to take advantage of this. Instead they make rules that you have to "wait in line" to fight. Also, multi-duels may be a fun feature, but that doesn't mean you also need amLaming or even an "honor code" does it? I do saber challenges all the time on my server, and I don't acknowledge any "honor codes" nor do I employ any admin mods. Somehow I don't need those crutches and artificial rules to enjoy this bonus feature. Strange that some people insist they need them...? In fact, multiple duels don't even require an admin mod. You could just make a mod with multi duels as a feature all by itself. You act as if Amlaming, honor codes and Multiduels are an essential part of Admin Mods. They aren't and don't have to be. I know that AmosMagee, M. Chrono, and ShroomDuck don't act like 12 year old brats, that's for sure. And yet, with few exceptions, the experiences of people on these forums have been overwhelmingly negative on Admin Mods that employ amlaming commands both in JK2 and JA. Maybe some people are masochists and like this sort of thing? My thing is that if a "good admin" doesn't employ Amlaming, then what's the point of having those commands in the first place? And I know of admins who shun both honor codes and amlaming, so what's the point? The point is that Admin Mods and AmLaming are ADDICTIVE. Thus, like other addictive substances with potentially harmful effects, their use by children should be regulated. Thus it's the responsibility of the community members to let Admin Mod authors know that these sorts of things (amlaming) have no place in the community, they simply aren't welcome. And it's the Admin Mod authors's reponsibility to make sure they don't put in easily abusable commands and they keep their source code private to prevent ignorant people from ripping off their code, putting in abusive commands and then releasing them for 12 year old maturity-level admins to abuse. Well if no one comes to their server due to abuse, maybe they'll get the idea. Boycotts have worked before, and they'll work now! Sure, but the root of the problem is that Admin Mod Authors don't realize the harm their mods cause. Rather than letting them proliferate unchecked and then try to shame a few admins into not using them, it makes more sense to convince Mod Authors that amlaming and other abuse is unacceptable. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's silly to give machineguns to kids and then assume that they'll all be good if we just scold them enough. Better not to give them the machineguns in the first place. Admin Mod Authors won't stop the problem of "honor," but they can help put a stop to the problem of amlaming and other blatant Admin Abuse. They say the best way to fight ignorance is with knowledge. So help spread the word of the destructive influence of "honor" and "amlaming" and help keep this FPS gaming community an FPS gaming community, and not an abusive bully community where only "h0n0r d00dz" and "RPGers" are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor We challenged you months ago. You never responded. /QUOTE] When was this damit. If it was in the game i must have not read it cause i never eject a challenge. If you challenged me through this forum, i dont check it often so it most likely i never respond. Stop saying i challenged u i challenged u and challenge me now. Now that i am actually reading this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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