razorace Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Originally posted by sora do me a favor, contact mars marshall and ask him to post on the forums. lets hear what he says and not a read me. his views might have changed. Why do you try? You're the one suggesting that his opinion has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Originally posted by sora do me a favor, contact mars marshall and ask him to post on the forums. lets hear what he says and not a read me. Are you suggesting someone other than Mars wrote the readme? Originally posted by acdcfanbill mods and TC's are for the community. If developers dont want ppl using them, they shouldnt release them. What point would that serve? Modders release their work so that the community can benefit from it. Why then, if they so desire, should the community not respect the author's right to exercise control over their creation? It is their work, and if they don't want it being modified, I think the community should respect that. It seems like a slap in the face to modders, who are not compensated for the time they spend creating new content for the community to enjoy, if their rights are not respected. If LEC/Raven didnt want modders to mod, they wouldnt have released the mod tools. Do you work as a defense attorney? Don't shift the blame to LEC/Raven - it's got nothing to do with what they want or don't want. The fact that they've given out the tools doesn't change the fact that some people violate a modder's rights. I think that AOTC should just keep all their files if they dont want people tinkering with them. It's attitudes like yours that would make them do just that. "Hey, if you didn't want me screwing up your hard work, you wouldn't have released it." Take responsibility for your own actions, here. He did give credit which is more that i can say for a few ppl during the [modname]++ mods of JK2. True - and the file wouldn't have been disabled because he did, and would still be enabled if AotCTC had not requested otherwise. He didnt blatently rip off work, he tried to improve upon something someone else made. ATOC isnt claiming tomake their own game, they are improving on what Raven released. And that would be perfectly fine if what he was "improving" was part of the public domain. It is not. If you are confused on the matter, I urge you to consult books on copyright law, as I have suggested to a few other people in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I think that AOTC should just keep all their files if they dont want people tinkering with them. Yeah but then we get winging gits like you asking us to release things, or please let me beta for you. Its called making the fans happy. If you dont like whats happened to you GO MAKE YOUR OWN MODEL. And getting hold of Mars, you got more chance of flying to the moon on a milk float. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sora Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 no i belive the readme is true. i checked myself just to make sure. iam just saying maybe his views have changed on modifying his work. thats all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manoman81 Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 you got more chance of flying to the moon on a milk float. Anakin, that was great!! I have never heard that before. Anyways, i think this discussion is over. It said in the readme that This Model is to be not to be modified in anyway.This model is an exclusive to the attack of the clones total conversion for JkII and Jedi Academy. That's it. Done deal. No more. [shrek]Bye-bye. See you later [/shreck] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Originally posted by sora Mod or modified means to make something better. Yikes. If that is the case then %80 of the mods out there are not mods, because they don't make anything better Originally posted by sora if aaron smith didnt whant his mod changed he wouldnt have released it. Or perhaps he released his mod so people could use it, not mod it. Because isn't allowing people to play with mods the biggest reason why people create mods in the first place? Originally posted by sora majinrevan only made it better than i dont see an issue as long as he gave credit. The issue has been discussed here at length. It doesn't matter if you or I see an issue or not, the fact of the matter is that AOTCTC has a right to do what they did. Originally posted by sora so AOTC should sit down and be quiet cause theres nothing they can do. Huh? They did do what they can do (get the download disabled) because they had the right to do so. PCGAMEMODS recognized this and complied. Ultimately AOTCTC released the mod so players could use (i.e. play with) it. They did not have to do this. The did this explicitely expressing that others should not modify it and release it (which still allows anyone can modify it and use it themselves). The person in question failed to respect AOTCTC's request. Thus they "spoiled it for everyone" as now no one can get the mod form PCGAMEMODS, even just to play with it. I don't see why people are upset that AOTCTC are backing up their initial request. Did people expect that they didn't really mean it or something? Most a pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PR-0927 Posted April 14, 2004 Author Share Posted April 14, 2004 Hey, I have been reading throughout this thread. I agree with my "opposers." Mars may have made it for AotCTC. But, Anakin still didn't read my request and nothing has been done about Sokar's "Sith Starfighter." Why my stuff then? Please let me modify or "remake" your vehicles. I will give full credit to the AotCTC and Mars Marshall and Aaron Smith. This is, I have to agree, rightfully the AotCTC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Originally posted by majinrevan Please let me modify or "remake" your vehicles. I will give full credit to the AotCTC and Mars Marshall and Aaron Smith. Maybe you need to read the readme one more time. This Model is to be not to be modified in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 And round and round we go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Originally posted by majinrevan Please let me modify or "remake" your vehicles. I will give full credit to the AotCTC and Mars Marshall and Aaron Smith. This is, I have to agree, rightfully the AotCTC's. And so long as you don't distribute your modification of their stuff, which, as TK-8252 has pointed out many times now, is not to be modified, you don't have a problem. Modify anything you want for your own personal use. It's when you want to give that mod to others that the problem arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kengo Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I think calling this "childish" or "whinging" is pretty inacurate, its both good and slightly surreal to see people on both sides of an argument being respectful and articulate. Eldritch has things absolutely spot on for me, and he's backed up his views with detailed facts. I do think this throw some interesting light on total conversion teams in general though - the issues of copyright and ownership and such. I am not suggesting for a moment that this will happen, but I wonder what we'd do if Mars came back and said he wanted all modifications/reskins and such of his work to be allowed? Would the AotC TC then allow them, or would it be in a position to refuse his request because he signed over the 'creative rights' or whatever to them? I personally feel that good quality modifications like majinrevan's work, credited properly, will only benefit the AotC, but its their perogative to decide otherwise and we have to honour that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Whynot bring Lec/Raven into this? they could have you shut down in much the same way you proposed to have majins materials removed, but they havent yet. apparntly they think it might be worth something for up and coming modders to start out somewhere. not on their own full blown game but maybe a TC first. or say, not a full blown model/skin maybe just a re-skin. i've never asked u to release anything, or begged to be a beta tester althought i only assume that that sort of thing goes w/ the terratory when you are making a highly anticipated mod/TC such as this. and if you want to start delving into copyright law, what about the fair use portions of it? he was certianly doing it for education, and in a non-profit setting maybe this is just me anyway, but i dont know how alienating some of your fans, who take the time to try and replicate what your doing, is going to help. sounds kind of like metallica and napster, but hey, thats just me (note: i dont like metallica anymore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Originally posted by Kengo but I wonder what we'd do if Mars came back and said he wanted all modifications/reskins and such of his work to be allowed? Would the AotC TC then allow them, or would it be in a position to refuse his request because he signed over the 'creative rights' or whatever to them? I believe that AOTCTC would be in a position to refuse anyway since they own the copyright. But whether they would be willing to respect Mars' request is another matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 This (I'll say again) childish arguement isn't getting anyone anywhere. Solution : Don't read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Originally posted by Kengo I do think this throw some interesting light on total conversion teams in general though - the issues of copyright and ownership and such. I am not suggesting for a moment that this will happen, but I wonder what we'd do if Mars came back and said he wanted all modifications/reskins and such of his work to be allowed? Would the AotC TC then allow them, or would it be in a position to refuse his request because he signed over the 'creative rights' or whatever to them? Well, we considered this issue at OJP as part of our legal considerations. It looks like you can't legally sign over copyright to your work without some sort of fancy contract and even that wouldn't nessarily work unless you provide some sort of compensation for the copyright transfer. Since that's not allowed by the ethical issues or the EULA, you're stuck with informal methods. What I've been doing is getting in writing (email) that the OJP submitters understand that we aren't making a claim on their work BUT we require that submitted material be allowed to stay in the project AND be modified by others for the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Originally posted by acdcfanbill Whynot bring Lec/Raven into this? they could have you shut down in much the same way you proposed to have majins materials removed, but they havent yet. apparntly they think it might be worth something for up and coming modders to start out somewhere. not on their own full blown game but maybe a TC first. or say, not a full blown model/skin maybe just a re-skin. They could, but considering that it's one of their games being used to represent one of their movies, I doubt they'd do anything. And yes, it's possible that they think it's "worth it," to let up and coming modders practice by reworking someone's else's work (though how that learns you anything new is anyone's guess), but it's more likely that they don't know or don't care. and if you want to start delving into copyright law, what about the fair use portions of it? he was certianly doing it for education, and in a non-profit setting There is another set of rules that governs the fair use clause, but his work wouldn't fall under fair use for education, since you have to be working for or in a certified educational institution. And on the non-profit front, it runs into another problem because of the distribution and defacing issues it raises. Perhaps AotCTC doesn't like the changes that were made to it, and they feel it devalues their original product? If that were the case, it'd throw out any fair use argument. maybe this is just me anyway, but i dont know how alienating some of your fans, who take the time to try and replicate what your doing, is going to help. sounds kind of like metallica and napster, but hey, thats just me (note: i dont like metallica anymore) Replicating would be making everything from scratch once again. What majin did was "improve," it - something you can't do unless it's part of the public domain (which it is not). If you really think that standing up for their rights and not allowing every person with access to their files to alter them in some way is alienating their fan base, then I think you've got a slightly distorted view on things. They have a copyright, same as LEC. If LEC decided that instead of granting the community permission to freely mod their game(s), they wanted to outlaw it... they could shut down every file site that distributes mods including PCGM, Jk2/3 files, massassi, etc. The difference is that LEC is a big company and everyone knows who made the game, whereas AotCTC is a group of people spending their time without compensation to bring new mods to the community. The fact that they want to keep their work looking like their work is a right I choose to respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Wha that the Oh come on you lot still going on about this, this happens every three months in every TC. Give up its a dead issue, if our mods dont work with other mods boo-frickety-hoo go make your own that will work and dont half-inch ours and blame us that is doesnt work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sora Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 majinrevan why dont you start your own web site so if people whant your downloads they can have them. is it just me or is anikin getting agitated about all of this? and anikin should care more about his fans. without them hed be nothin. (quote from anikin)if our mods dont work with other mods boo-frickety-hoo go make your own that will work and dont half-inch ours and blame us that is doesnt work.(quote) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercenary Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 If not for legal reasons do it out of respect and don't modify their stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Originally posted by Mercenary If not for legal reasons do it out of respect and don't modify their stuff. Well said. It's not about copywrite or legal reasons, this is simply out of respect for AOTC:TC's wishes. Show some respect for their requests and simply don't release your mods of their stuff! They made the model, and they expect that for their hard work that you simply honor their request that you don't mod their stuff and release it for the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Originally posted by sora is it just me or is anikin getting agitated about all of this? and anikin should care more about his fans. without them hed be nothin. Then perhaps you should start acting more like fans and less like psychotic stalkers. No member of AotCTC, Anakin included, owes this community anything. They are not paid, this is something they're spending their free time on - you can either like, appreciate and respect what they're doing (creating something to entertain YOU for no compensation) or just ignore it and forget about it. The number of fans the mod has doesn't effect anything - I imagine most of them would still work towards this even if it was just for personal use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Originally posted by Eldritch Then perhaps you should start acting more like fans and less like psychotic stalkers. No member of AotCTC, Anakin included, owes this community anything. They are not paid, this is something they're spending their free time on - you can either like, appreciate and respect what they're doing (creating something to entertain YOU for no compensation) or just ignore it and forget about it. The number of fans the mod has doesn't effect anything - I imagine most of them would still work towards this even if it was just for personal use. Yeah this is really getting to me and is bugging me time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 u 2 r bro btw mister you got a Harry potter Avatar, and it came to my attention that....you can guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Originally posted by Side u 2 r bro Nope. btw mister you got a Harry potter Avatar, and it came to my attention that....you can guess No, I can't - why don't you clarify it for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 This is a most interesting circular debate, people. I'd appreciate it if Side broke his own fingers so he couldn't reply to his half-assed flame. Play nicely, children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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