Xmod 2.7.0 :: Released today

[Kurgan]

So Hex, you're saying we can play on your server, and Amidala's server? Oh wow, a whole two servers (maybe three if Amidala has her other server up)! Why not avoid the problem in the first place and remove the commands? Then we can use *gasp* ALL Xmod2 servers!

 

It was nice to not have to worry about that BS, knowing that Xmod2 didn't stand for admin laming. Those days are now over...

 

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Heh.

 

I'll support Hex (as I have in the past) as long as what he's doing is actually GOOD (for the community) and MAKES SENSE.

 

The old "well I've got so many other features and bug fixes you have to love my mod despite the abuse it inspires" is the same tired argument that Slider used, and none of us bought it then, why should we buy it now from Hex? Sorry man, doesn't fly.

 

He'll earn my respect back again when he removes these stupid commands.

[razorace]

I agree with Kurgan on this. You can't give a kid a loaded pistol and then not be responsible when he shots himself in the face.

 

The "oh well only bad people will abuse it" is foolish logic, because they are only able to abuse those features if they are available in the first place.

 

In addition, that's the exact same logic that Slider used when he did it in his mod. You've sunk to his level.

[=X=Master HeX]

welcome to america

 

You are free to shoot people and deal with the consequences. I believe in the freedoms to own such weapons and I will support them.

 

If you join a server and the admin is abusive go play on another server. It's that simple. As it was there were only about 5 xmod servers before I put the commands back in. It appears that the people who don't want the commands are just more vocal then the people who want them.

 

It's a game and it's a mod.. I never caught this kinda fire in jk2 for including the command. And you know why? Because when that kinda stuff happened people flamed the retards abusing the commands and not the mod author who created them. Hell we got in a few clan wars because of that stuff and it was all great times.

 

Don't like it? It's your choice to not use my mod and I am in no way forcing you to use it. If I don't include the commands what stops people from just going with JA+ mod? nothing.

 

FYI the length of your post doesn't decide how right you are.

[=X=Master HeX]

And just to set the record straight guys... I'm not in this for the respect or anything related to it. I have all the respect I need. I am attempting to make bug fixes and game changes and see that the mod is on the most servers I can get it on. If that means giving people the option to slap/kill/trip you then I gotta get dirty somewhere.

 

The commands are intended to deal with players who an admin would like to deal with. I would rather give an admin a loaded gun rather then the nerf bat that you want me to give them.

[Ace-_Ventura]

Originally posted by Kurgan

So Hex, you're saying we can play on your server, and Amidala's server? Oh wow, a whole two servers (maybe three if Amidala has her other server up)! Why not avoid the problem in the first place and remove the commands? Then we can use *gasp* ALL Xmod2 servers!

 

It was nice to not have to worry about that BS, knowing that Xmod2 didn't stand for admin laming. Those days are now over...

 

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snip "Force Long Post"

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Heh.

 

I'll support Hex (as I have in the past) as long as what he's doing is actually GOOD (for the community) and MAKES SENSE.

 

The old "well I've got so many other features and bug fixes you have to love my mod despite the abuse it inspires" is the same tired argument that Slider used, and none of us bought it then, why should we buy it now from Hex? Sorry man, doesn't fly.

 

He'll earn my respect back again when he removes these stupid commands.

i know what are u saying. but now put urself as a guy who made a mod. would u like to work as hex works and then only 2 servers get the mod? people don't like xmod, not only because it doesn't have admin abusive commands but because that ja+ mod is the well know mod for jka. so if i was doing a mod i would do the same since making a mod for only 2 servers it's to bad.

[Nylith]

So Kurgan, are you saying that you used to play on lots of Xmod2 servers and now fear that you won't be able to due to these features? Or did you never play on them before?

 

If you don't trust the admin of your server enough to have these powers, why would you play on that server to begin with? Beware of the 10 lines of code that CORRUPT THE ADMINS SOUL!!

 

Kurgan, your bus is here:

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by =X=Master HeX

And just to set the record straight guys... I'm not in this for the respect or anything related to it. I have all the respect I need.

 

But you do admit to doing this in the hopes that it will be popular, as you admit below. At least you're honest!

 

 

 

I am attempting to make bug fixes and game changes and see that the mod is on the most servers I can get it on. If that means giving people the option to slap/kill/trip you then I gotta get dirty somewhere.

 

Right, you hope that your mod will become popular by adding these commands. Since the commands aren't needed (your 'honor' system worked fine as we all know), you're just doing it because you think it will make your mod more popular.

 

The commands are intended to deal with players who an admin would like to deal with.

 

Such as people who are beating the admin, people who the admin wishes to pick on, people who aren't the admins friends, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.

 

These are great tools for admins who wish to bully their guests, which is why they are harmful.

 

 

I would rather give an admin a loaded gun rather then the nerf bat that you want me to give them. [/b]

 

I'm glad you believe in gun rights, but let's point out some differences between the gun control debate and the admin abuse debate.

 

1) Firearms usually require money to be purchased. Admin mods are free.

 

While it takes cash (often quite a bit) to buy a gun in reality, who would say that handing out guns to kids is a good idea? I mean you would be giving them away, you'd have less ability to regulate them and make sure you aren't giving them to would-be criminals. Besides, guns are dangerous. Giving them to children is irresponsible. Even at Boyscout camp when we took rifle shooting, we didn't get to take the guns home with us. We had adult supervision the entire time, and safety equipment on a closed range. Every precaution was taken. It wasn't like we were just walking down the street and some guy comes up with a wheel barrel full of guns and says "here kid, have fun." But the second analogy is like the admin mod situation. Any fool can get an admin mod.

 

 

2) Firearms are usually regulated in some part by law. This means that a 12 year old can't walk into a store and buy a shotgun. Maybe he could buy a bb gun, but there is an obvious difference between them in their overall power. Though IIRC, even BB guns require at least your parent's permission or you have to be 18.

Admin mods aren't regulated in any way, shape or form. Anybody with an internet connection can download them.

 

3) Many firearm's laws are in place to ensure responsible use. Liscenses, safety locks, training courses, waiting periods, background checks, carrying/concealed laws, etc.

 

Admin mods have no such laws. Anyone can get them, and anyone can use them for any purpose they see fit, with zero consequences.

 

4) Firearms can be purchased by anyone, but they are also possessed by the police force and military.

While the outlaw can get a firearm to commit a crime, the citizen can buy a firearm for defense against the criminal. Likewise the Military and Police possess firearms to keep order, thus preventing outlaws from taking over the country. Likewise (the logic goes) firearms in the hands of citizens prevent a corrupt government from threatening citizens without due process (though one would also acknowledge that the military has far more powerful assets than mere hand guns and rifles).

 

Admin mods are soley in the hands of admins. That means that joining players (your "citizens") have no "weapons" to counter the corrupt actions of their admins. This would be akin to a police state where firearm possession was outlawed for everyone but the police and military. So I guess if you are in favor of banning firearms, this would be a good analogy for the admin community.

 

5) Firearm ownership is protected by US Constitutional Amendment in order to ensure "the security of a free state."

 

Ampunish commands are used to torment players based on the Admin Mod users's whims. Again, it's akin to the government having the only weapons, to use as they see fit, for good or for oppression.

 

6) Firearms are deemed necessary because of the incomplete nature of government protection.

 

That is to say that the police can't be everywhere at once. They can't always get to your home in time to save you from the criminal that may threaten your life. So carrying firearms can allow for self defense in times where law enforcement is inadequate. Likewise it can deter some would-be criminals because of the threaten of retaliation.

 

There is no such policy with regard to admin mods that have these commands, because the player has NO POWER. He can't carry his own admin mod and use it to defeat the Admin who's trying to slap/sleep him. He has no recourse. There is no outside authority to stop "criminal" admins from attacking unarmed players.

 

Perhaps "corrupt police state" is not as good an analogy as "regional warlord" style government. Each regional warlord (admin's) whim is law. He may be benevolent or oppressive. And if that regional warlord has weapons of mass destruction (ampunish commands) his oppression will be all the more threatening.

 

7) Firearm actions have consequences.

Let's say I own a gun. Let's say I shoot someone. I claim it was self defense. But unless I go into hiding, I will have to answer for my actions. I will have to testify in court that it was in self defense. Sure, I am innocent until proven guilty, but I could be sued for wrongful death by the family of the person shot. Or if they were only injured, sued by them. Was I using excessive force? Was my life really in danger? Or maybe I'm lying and committed murder? Etc.

 

Unfortunately, there is no "court" to investigate those who use ampunish commands. They may say it was "to stop that lamer from ruining my game" but there's no way to prove that, and even if you could, no one to issue any kind of punishment for the admin if he overstepped his bounds.

 

So, even if you are staunchly pro-gun, the same logic doesn't apply to ampunish commands so prevelant in Admin Mods (ie: JA+ Mod and now Xmod2).

 

 

Freedom comes with responsibility. One can't simply yell "fire" in a crowded theater. And one can't give aide and comfort to the enemies of one's country in time of war. Sure one might argue that you should be able to do these things, but by law, you aren't allowed to. So again, there are limits to freedom, whether we like it or not.

 

Granted, Gun Control is a far more serious issue, because of the consequences. People can be injured, crippled or die. Governments can oppress people. Criminals can have their way with helpless citizens. People can kill themselves, etc.

 

With games, the worst that can happen is a person gets mad, wastes their time, doesn't have any fun and loses money (from buying a game that is worthless and hosting a server for nothing). The stakes are lower, but it's still something that should be addressed.

 

Hex, why are you suddenly so inflexible about this? Did Slider make that much of an impression on you? I don't mean that as an insult, but your recent behavior sounds just like what he did.

 

Long posting doesn't make one right, BUT, without wording our arguments carefuly there is potential for misunderstanding. And rather than flash out slogans and one sentence statements, this helps to clarify exactly what we mean. So sorry for being long winded, this is just how I express myself.

[zERoCooL2479]

Don't sweat it Hex...No matter what you decide to do, you will not please these people. All they do is find something to complain about and spam it. Seriously, how long has this "admin abuse" conversations been going on? Since the days of jk2. My advice to those people:

 

Get over it and stop talking about it. Nothing you say here will change anything, EVER!!! You should notice that by now.

 

Sorry guys, but its the honest truth. Take it from someone that has been down that road.

 

c1 out!!!

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Nylith

So Kurgan, are you saying that you used to play on lots of Xmod2 servers and now fear that you won't be able to due to these features? Or did you never play on them before?

 

Don't act so surprised, thinking I'm just this weirdo with some whacked out idea attacking Hex for no reason.

 

I'm not the only one who feels this way about ampunish commands.

 

Already people have started complaining about being "lamed" by admins who use Xmod2! Considering what a short time this new version has been out, I think that says something.

 

Give the abusive admins the tools and they will use them. If the good admins won't use them then you're essentially admitting that they are necessary even if only used for abuse. That's the kind of thinking that continues to kill this community.

 

I've played on Xmod2 servers before (in the 2.2.x period and after), and plenty of other admin mod servers. When I play on servers that don't use admin abusive mods, I know that I won't fall victim to those abusive commands. It's only logical.

 

If the mod they are using can't put me to sleep, then I need not worry about being put to sleep.

 

After having to put up with ampunish crap on enough servers I started avoiding them. I didn't need to avoid Xmod2 servers because I knew they didn't have the commands. In the last three months I have not played very much on public servers, because I've been hosting my own. So I can say with honesty that I haven't played on any Xmod2 or JA+ Mod servers LATELY.

 

Does that make me a hypocrite? No. Because human nature being what it is, and because I knew for a fact that JA+ always had the commands and yet Xmod2 didn't, I didn't need to worry about it.

 

If you don't trust the admin of your server enough to have these powers, why would you play on that server to begin with? Beware of the 10 lines of code that CORRUPT THE ADMINS SOUL!!

 

Have you ever played on a server where an admin abused his power by sleeping people who were beating him? Have you ever had a person just randomly slap/slay people on the map? No?

 

Well then maybe you need to, so you can see what it's like. The loudest defenders always scream "WITHOUT THESE POWERS THE LAMERS WILL TAKE OVER!" ie: "honor" rears its ugly head.

 

Do you grovel and bow before every duel? Do you only use the "proper" saber moves that the admin condones? Do you always avoid hitting people with saber down or who have chat bubbles up? 'Cause if you make one mistake you'll fall victim to these commands, even if the rules are not stated, and often when you don't break any rule at all.

 

But the fact remains, that even if you obey every rule an admin makes up, he can still punish you to his heart's desire with no recourse. Since Ampunish are not needed to "keep order" then they are useless commands that have only a potential for abuse.

 

BEFORE Hex created his masterful auto honor enforcement (which stops all saber down and chat kills on a sabers only server) perhaps the commands might have made sense (though I'd argue that Rcon was enough, put that aside for a moment). But now that he's got an evolved system, the commands are even more out of place than before.

 

It's akin to having cars that can only go 20 miles an hour, but equiping traffic cops with bazookas to kill people who break the 20 mph speed limit. Sure the bazookas made some sense (assuming you think death for breaking the speed limit is just) when they made cars that could go 60 mph, but now that they can only go 20, there's even less reason, and you will just have to deal with the consequences of the crazy cops blowing up stuff.

 

Of course in the gaming world, like on the internet, hurting people is anonymous and virtually consequence free. Would you talk up to a total stranger and yell every obscenity you could think of in their face? No? Why not?

 

More than likely you'd get a response from the person that you wouldn't like (perhaps a fist to the jaw). But on the internet you can do it and get away with it. So the "crazy cops" can do what they like online with far fewer consequences that would deter such behavior than in the real world.

 

Kurgan, your bus is here:

[/b]

 

You do realize that ad hominem is a logical fallacy, don't you?

 

I point out the flaws in the arguments in favor of ampunish commands. I'd like to see the answer to the arguments.

[=X=Master HeX]

I read about every other line of that one.. Alright, don't think it's related to gun control?

 

How about we relate it to any linux box.

 

Being admin since the begining of time means you have all power over the processes running on your box. JA is a process that is a bit more involved then say your friendly http server. I am simply including commands that admins can use on their guests. Note I said keyword: guests. If they are willing to supply the box and bandwidth then they should have the right to slap their guests around. It's their box, their money, their service. Don't like their service? Go elsewhere.

 

Personally I don't mind the slap, trip, kill commands used upon me because it makes your victory all the more sweeter when the admin has a cow over your skills.

 

Now where is the slap command for these forums?

[=X=Master HeX]

FYI this is my last post related to this argument. It wouldn't matter if I took my argument and put it in our constitution to make it right... you would still fight it.

 

Soooo, get over it and go see a movie.. I hear spiderman2 is good.

[zERoCooL2479]

Originally posted by =X=Master HeX

I read about every other line of that one.. Alright, don't think it's related to gun control?

 

How about we relate it to any linux box.

 

Being admin since the begining of time means you have all power over the processes running on your box. JA is a process that is a bit more involved then say your friendly http server. I am simply including commands that admins can use on their guests. Note I said keyword: guests. If they are willing to supply the box and bandwidth then they should have the right to slap their guests around. It's their box, their money, their service. Don't like their service? Go elsewhere.

 

Personally I don't mind the slap, trip, kill commands used upon me because it makes your victory all the more sweeter when the admin has a cow over your skills.

 

Now where is the slap command for these forums?

 

lol...be careful, I heard any backtalk on these forums gets you banned

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by zERoCooL2479

Don't sweat it Hex...No matter what you decide to do, you will not please these people. All they do is find something to complain about and spam it. Seriously, how long has this "admin abuse" conversations been going on? Since the days of jk2. My advice to those people:

 

How little you know. I CAN be pleased. I was pleased when Hex removed the amabuse commands from Xmod2 2.2.x. I told him so, several times and told others.

 

I was NOT PLEASED when he told me that 2.7.0 has them back again. And I told him so, you guessed it.. several times! ; )

 

I would be pleased again if one simple thing was done, remove the abusive commands from Xmod2 2.7.1 (or whatever). I would be happy again and respect him again.

 

Sure, Hex's goal may not be to please me (alone), but surely he has some stake in whether or not people like and use his mod, or else the following incident of his behavior would make little sense...

 

Let me explain further, since you don't seem to understand why I'm complaining at all:

 

It may surprise you to know that Hex put up a poll awhile back (prior to version 2.2.x), asking people if they thought ampunish commands should be in Xmod2. Clearly he (at one time) cared what people thought and was willing to listen.

 

He could have simply been like Slider and kept them in regardless of how many complaints he got. Now suddenly he's flip flopped on the issue for reasons of his own. I'd like to take issue with his action, which directly affects the community, including myself.

 

Hex was even kind enough to talk to me in private, even though I had just got done criticizing his mod on his forum. He let me help him test a version of his mod that had the honor enforcement. I was impressed enough to endorse him and recommend his mod to others. So it's not like I suddenly decided to have a vendetta against the guy or scream just to have something to do.

 

The "admin abuse" conversations have been going on HERE at least since JA. Back in JK2 people didn't realize just how bad things were getting until they were already too far gone I guess. Check ASE and you'll see the majority of people are FFAing with sabers and few force powers. I'd imagine many of those FFA servers are rather "stand around chatting waiting for saber challenge" type deals since they use admin mods with multiple duels enabled.

 

The "admin abuse" thing is tied to the "Honor" thing. And we've argued about THAT for years, since JK2 came out and some guys made it up.

 

What the admin mods were designed to do originally was to make it so that the "honor" code could be enforced (the idea being that rcon couldn't do it, or that people wouldn't want to learn rcon so they had to have a different system). This idea may have been well intentioned (though flawed in its execution) but once Hex came up with honor enforcement that was a passive system (and thus unbiased), he had come up with a better solution, one that BRIDGED the gap between "honor" players and competative gamers.

 

By regressing into the old, obsolete realm where ampunish commands were believed to be useful, he basically undid the good he'd done with the honor enforcement system.

 

Admin Abuse isn't something that's a problem with (basejka) JA is it? Because if that's true, then it would be a problem with ALL ONLINE GAMES. Because all online games allow an admin to kick players from their server and most allow them to block IP's.

 

So at worst an admin can ban you from his server for life. Wow.

 

But he can't make it so your player can't move, can't type, and dies over and over, while he teleports around the map invincible with all force powers and weapons at the touch of a button... not unless he uses a mod designed by someone like Slider or Hex. People like Hex and Slider don't get paid by LucasArts or Raven. And they don't have to meet any kind of standards of quality, balance, or any other kind other than what they set for themselves, basically. So they are "on the honor system" as far as making mods goes.

 

But when you do something as public as they do, you have a responsibility. Like yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Sure you COULD do it, but should you? Aren't you responsible for your own actions? Likewise if you own a gun, shouldn't you use it responsibly? Like legal hunting, self defense, or target shooting? As opposed to randomly blasting at cars or firing off rounds in a post office? It's the same idea, with lower stakes.

 

Admin Mods like the ones in the JK2 and JA communities seem atypical. How many FPS games do you know of that allow the admin (and his "sub admins") to kill a player at the touch of a button for any reason. Or that let him become invincible and give him superior weaponry with the touch of a button or make it so that another player cannot move or defend himself or even type anything? And all of this WITHOUT cheats on and things that only a few on the server can do? Such a thing destroys all possibility of competition, unless admins hold back and refuse to use them.

 

The whole idea was that "in order to make it so we can have honor" these commands "have to be used."

 

Meaning that Admins feel they are powerless to stop people from "laming" so they have to humiliate them to get revenge so the people either obey or leave.

 

I've had abusive people join my server before (hiding with capturable items in Siege and deliberate repeated team killing), but a simple IP range ban dealt with them and they never came back. No admin mods were needed.

 

Get over it and stop talking about it. Nothing you say here will change anything, EVER!!! You should notice that by now.

 

Wrong. Hex opened up the topic himself and he got people talking, and he made a decision based on the ideas presented to him. If he could do it once, who's to say he can't do it again? And that was on HIS forum, so it's not like anyone forced him to discuss it. He could have silenced everyone on the board who wanted to talk about it, if he had chosen to.

 

Just because Slider won't listen to criticism (constructive or not) doesn't mean that Hex is as unreasonable.

 

Hex has free will. He can choose to modify his mod to help the community rather than hurt it if he wishes to. Perhaps if he is made aware of the harm his mod can do (like Slider's) with these features, he'll change his mind.

 

Sorry guys, but its the honest truth. Take it from someone that has been down that road.

 

Ditto here man. Nothing will ever change if you just bend over and like it. Sure, there's a chance the person won't ever listen, no matter how much evidence is there that he's in the wrong (ie: Slider), but without taking that chance you'll never know whether anything can change, period.

 

And that is the honest truth. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by =X=Master HeX

FYI this is my last post related to this argument. It wouldn't matter if I took my argument and put it in our constitution to make it right... you would still fight it.

 

Soooo, get over it and go see a movie.. I hear spiderman2 is good.

 

Again, I'm afraid you're wrong.

 

All you have to do is remove the amabuse commands (slap, sleep, trip, kill, etc) as you did ONCE BEFORE and I won't complain again.

 

I will be happy. I was happy before. I never once bashed your mod once you removed the commands. All this time I've been happy and promoting it every chance I got.

 

So you're just being petty by accusing me of "never being satisfied" and then threatening to leave the argument because you will hear no more.

 

If you wish not to listen to the people, fine, but at least you heard this much. Me, I think it's important to hear criticism, especially constructive criticism, rather than hide from it, if you're honest about improving your work.

 

Because you're clearly making this mod for others to use, rather than just for yourself. I remember when Xmod2 was touted as the "savior" of the JA community, because it was going to give Jk2 players back the gameplay features they loved. I don't think they meant amslap, do you?

 

Then when you change your mod based on feedback, that too says you do care what others think. I'm sorry you feel so defensive about this, but honestly, what did you expect our reaction to be?

[Kurgan]

Hex, having "all control" over your server is something you already get with rcon.

 

About the only thing that admin mods do to reasonably improve upon this is to up the limit on the number of IP ranges that can be banned at one time.

 

Admin Mods like this are basically cheat devices that only work for one person.

 

Would you try to have a competative game with someone, knowing they had the power to use cheats for their benefit at any moment? Not unless you're a glutton for punishment.

 

Sure, it would be great to beat an admin even though he has cheats, but if he can stop you from even moving, before you even do anything, who's to say you'll ever get the chance?

 

Originally posted by zERoCooL2479

lol...be careful, I heard any backtalk on these forums gets you banned

 

There's no rule against debating, so I wouldn't worry.

 

Now there's a good analogy to admin mods. On this forum (as on Hex's forum and all other forums I know of) we have the ability to ban you from posting.

 

But let's say we also had the ability to make it so that obscene pictures appeared on your screen, or to make your computer crash, or to fill your inbox with spam.

 

Would that be "justifiable" in order to enforce our whims? I hope not. But I think you hit on a good bit of logic there.

 

Or were you just trying to be cute by insinuating that debating me will result in you being banned? I hope you don't feel that way. Besides, I'm not the only admin here, so if I banned somebody for no reason I'd have to answer to the other admins. So maybe this doesn't fit the admin mod debate, since I actually have to show responsibility!

[Master William]

It's basically like choosing between death and torture... Sleep or Kick, Slap x999 or Ban, etc.

 

Every command can be abused. He can't just put Kick and Ban in. Freeze is annoying when an admin uses it on you just because you beat him/her in a duel.

 

I don't see much to argue about, there's always ways to grief people. This whole discussion is exaggerated, I'm pretty sure Xmod had the enough strength to be used as an abusing tool, in my clanserver an ex member kept using all sorts of commands on us... Everybody found it annoying. Just kicking someone over and over is enough abusing, and it can be done without an admin mod.

 

Sorry, but I fail to see what the big difference really is...

[Alegis]

In my opinion a server should only have kick and ban, which are included in the game. Slap is nothing more than "to amuse the admins". Want to teach them a listen? Kick them. Reconnecting will do them more than getting back up from a slap.

 

I believe Hex has done hours of work on it, and as he said only 5 xmod servers orso were running it, thats a sorta dissapointment out of him. With this he hopes to get some of the JA+ users out there. I think its good to see them replaced because xmod is way better.

 

Jedi Academy almost never was competitive, which is sad. Not all admins are "anti lamer guys", find those servers you like, bookmark em. I know it's a pain in the ass cause in other competitive games you can just hop on any you like. If theres this 1 server you really like, put it in your signature orso so ppl like me can see em and play on em and enjoy JA.

 

I know, it's only a few..but, you only play on 1 server at the same time, no?

 

And still, if there are "anti lamer" admins who host THEIR server, they will go for japlus . Xmod is more for those that want very good features, but just slap for the few a-holes. Not to randomly slap the chatkillers

 

Point of what i was trying to say; anti lamer admins cant be fixed. And the true anti lamer admins will still stick to japlus. This xmod version has some nice fixes im interested in

[Kurgan]

Death & Torture? Well, that's like saying that amlaming is preferable to banning. If the admin hates me that much, I'd rather go to a different server than sit around while he gloats over my sleeped/slapped body.

 

And it's true even in real life, many torture victims would RATHER die than continue being tortured. Murder is a horrible thing, but torture requires a special kind of cruelty that can go beyond even the desire to take away someone's life.

 

The mind of the torturer is that he has POWER OVER somebody. The victim is helpless in his hands, making him feel powerful and superior. By giving the torturer more tools to inflict pain, he's being encouraged to let his passions run wild.

 

This is different than government or law enforcement, where there are limits to what they can do and they are answerable to others (other governments, investigations, legal action, lobbying, councils, courts, etc).

 

Admin Mods basically "change the laws" allowing the admin to torture people at a whim. Even though the idea was to have him only torture "the bad people" its freely abused to torture anyone for any reason. By "changing the laws" back to forbidding the torture, it limits the abuses that can be performed.

 

Sure, I suppose a person could be kicked from every server everywhere and never get to play, but at least he'd still have his dignity. There's far more frustration involved in the ampunish game. And it was DESIGNED that way. Ampunish commands are meant to instill anger and frustration in the victim. This was justified because the victims were supposed to be "lamers."

 

But since the system relies on a HUMAN to enforce it, with no safeguards, checks, balances, or rules of any sort, he can use it any way he chooses. Many choose to use it on innocent players or to ensure cheap victory for themselves.

 

The thing about having only a few servers to play on is this. I pay my $50 for this game and guess what? All the developers time and money was wasted, because there IS NO GAME. Rather, there's a chatroom where a god-like being sits on his throne and torments people for his pleasure until they either disconnect or he shoots them with his bangun.

 

And if those "few" servers ever go down, guess what? I can't play the game I paid for anymore.

 

Sure, one might argue, "those guys paid for their games and servers too, they should be able to do what they want." But the thing is, if every server is useless, then the game is useless as as multiplayer contest.

 

Not everyone afford to host a proffessional server. It takes time and money to run one. Thus most players are RELIANT on public servers to play multiplayer.

 

Bots are simply no substitute, especially considering the buggy nature of the bots included in basejka.

 

And since the Admin Mod makers are directly responsible for the use or abuse of their mods (if you don't include a feature, it can't be abused, can it), they have a responsibility to ensure it isn't something that ruins the game for everyone.

 

Since ampunish abuse IS widespread, and since it's contrary to the principles upon which the game was designed, I don't think there's any good reason to encourage it, period. Even if a few admins have "fun" using the commands on unsuspecting players.

 

-------------------------

 

Sorry for the rabid posting, I honestly have to go do something for awhile, so I wanted to get my thoughts out early on.

 

I also apologize if any of my more "aggressive" comments were taken in an insulting fashion. I do not wish to insult anyone. I was trying to direct my criticism at the mod itself and express my frustration as to why Hex was seemingly sabotaging the good work he'd previously done.

 

Xmod2 IS a good mod. And it IS good for competition.

 

Many of us (myself excluded) were upset that JA changed various aspects of gameplay we'd grown accustomed to. We liked how the old moves worked and we liked flip kicks (so did I, though I'm not upset they were removed, I can live with it).

 

What Xmod2 did was to "save" that aspect of gameplay by giving us the option to put those things back in.

 

slap, sleep, etc. were never part of JK2, they were MODS created by well intentioned, but ultimately misguided souls who wished to enforce an "honor code" that was made up by some players after the game was out for awhile.

 

The competative spirit that Xmod2 encouraged by including the JK2 style "competative" settings is now being compromised by the "ampunish" type commands. So I agree with you Alegis, this recent development is actually counter to Xmod2's mission!

 

 

Can the author of a work of "art" be "wrong"?

 

Many people criticize George Lucas for "messing up" his own movies with the Special Editions, or for "screwing up the mythology" with the Prequels. It's an opinion.

 

Many are upset because Lucas refuses to release the original versions of his films on DVD, but only the modified versions. Is he right? That's another debate, but another example.

 

Here Hex was faced with a problem (anti-honor "lamers") and he came up with a solution, a solution that WORKED pretty dang well, better than any solution previously proposed.

 

But, now he took an old, ineffective and flawed solution with more drawbacks than positives and slapped it on top of his superior solution. Hence the confusion as to why he did such a thing...

 

 

 

PS: There's a thread over at =X= forums about this issue, dating back to the first time abusive commands were removed. If you wish to learn more about the debate, feel free to read it. The poll may even be still active I don't know. Hex said he doesn't want to argue anymore, but maybe if he hears what you have to say he'll listen, rather than thinking that it's just one person yelling.

 

http://x.fragism.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4627#4627

 

If Xmod2 was so good without the ampunish commands, and putting them back in is like putting an old manure stained shag patch on a beautiful persian rug. They tarnish the image of the mod in general.

 

Since Xmod2 was the only non-abusive admin mod that was superior to JA+, it was a shame to see it plunge down to its level by becoming abusive itself. Now those who wish to be free from the abusive nonesense have even fewer servers to join.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Kurgan

But let's say we also had the ability to make it so that obscene pictures appeared on your screen, or to make your computer crash, or to fill your inbox with spam.

 

LOL!

 

Well, I'll just say this:

 

I've lost all interest in xMod now. IMO, Hex is being worse than Slider because Hex has gone back on his word that he would discontinue the abuse his mod brought. After many people supported and promoted his mod, and the competitive community had a great deal of respect for him, he's let everyone down. I've been pushing xMod for my clan's server for quite a while now, but, that can be forgotten.

 

But I'll just be fair here. I'm losing interest in Jedi Academy altogether now. It's just one short summer vacation until Star Wars Battlefront comes out. Let's hope these coders keep their rotten admin abuse commands out of Battlefront!

[Tyrion]

Kurgan, pull yourself back to reality a bit with your analogies. By Hex giving the Admins the Kick, Freeze, ect. commands he isn't giving a kid a gun to shoot himself with, neither is he letting the admins flood your screen with pornographic pictures. The worst the abusive admins can do is freeze or slap your character, all you need to do to get away is just leave the server. That's it, you won't be shot by the admin, or have Goatse popping up all over your screen.

 

As well, find some servers that both use this mod and also have admins that don't abuse the commands. Surely not all the admins in the x-mod servers abuse thier powers.

[razorace]

The commands are intended to deal with players who an admin would like to deal with. I would rather give an admin a loaded gun rather then the nerf bat that you want me to give them.

 

Warn/Boot/Ban is not a nerf bat. Beyond torturing the players or giving the admin an unfair advantage, these /am commands do nothing.

 

The fact remains that these commands are often used to hurt the gaming experience of other players. And that's not cool.

[Darth Kaan]

If the added features in xmod 2.7.0 concern your fragile ego, play the 2.6.0 servers, In Q-tracker, over 30 servers are up and running 2.6.0 right now...

 

I counted 16 running 2.7.0 earlier and played in 5 of them. None of those five had abusive admins.

 

99% of the Server admins that are abusive run "Honorz" servers and if you think any gamplay actually exhists in those type servers in the first place and you go into them, then you deserved to be abused.

 

Play where the real games are and stop bitching about someone who has fixed the things that matter and given this community a mod that those of us that play MP a lot truly enjoy.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by zERoCooL2479

Don't sweat it Hex...No matter what you decide to do, you will not please these people. All they do is find something to complain about and spam it. Seriously, how long has this "admin abuse" conversations been going on? Since the days of jk2. My advice to those people:

 

Get over it and stop talking about it. Nothing you say here will change anything, EVER!!! You should notice that by now.

 

Sorry guys, but its the honest truth. Take it from someone that has been down that road.

 

c1 out!!!

 

its been going on since quake and its not going to change. the difference is the number of people who will shut up and play.

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

*clears throat* May I say something?

 

I think we have to look at the state of the game as it is in July 2004, not September 2003. It is too late to prevent abuse of admin mod powers and the resultant driving of players from the game. That has already happened. The community has been divided into two parts: the majority "honor" "anti-laming" disabled guns, disabled force "FFA dueling" and chatting servers, and the small CTF\Siege community.

 

The majority "honor" servers\players are overwhelmingly JA Plus Modded with the abuse-prone commands. They became the majority by driving "traditional" FFA players out of the game and into friendlier games like COD and UT2004 (I know because that's where my regulars went. Even with my servers to play on, they got tired of playing the same people on the same server over and over again, and since they knew what would happen to them if they went to an "honor" server and tried to play, they just left when they got bored enough since their freedom to choose abuse-free servers was so limited). Once JA Plus mod with the abuse commands became available, the fate of the game was sealed. xmod could not change that, the lure of the Dark Side is just too strong for those who like to enforce "honor" rules.

 

If Hex were to take the 3 or 4 "abuse-prone" commands out, and even if slider took all of the abusive commands out of future (weekly) versions of JA Plus mod, nothing would change.

The honor servers would just use the current or older versions of JA Plus Mod to continue doing what they enjoy doing. You just have to face reality. Yelling at Hex isn't going to change the situation.

 

There are people who are unhappy with JA Plus mod for various reasons, but they won't even consider trying a different mod that doesn't have certain commands like sleep, slap, etc. Hex put a lot of work into his mod, he knows it is superior to slider's, and he just wants people to consider using it, realizing that what's done is done, and having those 3 or 4 commands in or out is not going to "save" or "kill" the community either way, but it may cause people to use his mod who otherwise wouldn't consider it.

 

Nothing is going to change the fact that certain servers\admins are going to be abusive, whether they are running JA Plus, xmod2, or JA Reloaded 1.4 (which is also very good BTW). And there are servers that players are just not going to be abused on, no matter what mod is running.

 

During the past few months I have run JA Plus, JA Reloaded, and xmod2 on my servers for various reasons. And no matter what mod was used, no one was abused on my servers. And I assume the same is true for other CTF servers and most Siege servers. To say that players going to xmod servers must now be afraid of being abused may be theoretically true, but practically it isn't a real concern, because most of the servers running xmod2 are not places where people will be abused. If a few "honor" servers switch to xmod2 and abuse players, well, they would have abused them with JA Plus anyway. In either case, you or I wouldn't go there anyway.

 

Kurgan, to say you are not going to consider using xmod2 because it has those 3 or 4 commands just doesn't make sense. Your not using it is not going to change the community as a whole, it is too late for that. But you would be denying your server of all the great gameplay enhancements that xmod2 has. So what if it has some commands that neither you nor I would ever use? Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[TK-8252]

It's just the principle, Ami... by putting the abuse commands in xMod it's promoting admin abuse. I had a great deal of respect for xMod because it was one of the mods that was against abuse. But... I guess that's just too much to ask.

 

Let's hope that this doesn't turn into a "who can make the most abusive admin commands" competition.