Revan....Male or Female??

[Emperor Devon]

Basically, choosing Revan as dark side (Either gender) in KotOR 2, makes the story completeley illogical.

 

In my time playing as a dark isde Revan, I've come to a few conclusions about the matter. It seems entirely possible to me that the True Sith are powerful enough that Bastila's battle meditation is far less useful. The ancient Sith did have their own techniques to manipulate people's morale in ways I think are very effective, such as Sith illusions and their own twisted varient of battle meditation. It's entirely possible some of the more powerful Sith Lords could use those techniques.

 

It's also fairly obvious why Revan stopped using the Star Forge. It corrupted the builders and turned them against each other, so Revan would have no reason to place himself at risk when regular means of producing ships would do. And with that logic, you'd wonder why a light side Revan didn't stay behind and rebuild the Republic fleet.

 

I belive he wanted to prove that Revan is canonically Light side male. That, he accomplished.

 

After I said it had no bearing? Seems like an odd thing to do.

[Melly]

I belive he wanted to prove that Revan is canonically Light side male. That, he accomplished.

 

Um, no he didn't. He gave us a link to Wikipedia, which can be edited by anyone, and is NOT an official source (i.e. it's not LucasArts). And like Emperor Devon has said twice now, it has no bearing on whether you prefer female or male Revan and what you play each time you load up the game.

 

Yoshi, I'm not going to argue with you about which is better, but suffice to say I don't like the Force Bond's possibility of interfering with the natural progression of the romance between Bastila and Revan (which is something I also don't like with "the General" and his/her followers either) , I also don't like the fact that you spend so little time with Bastila (compared to Carth) and I also don't like the whole "she turned from the DS because of Revan's love" statements. Bastila should turn from the DS not just because she loves Revan but because, more importantly, she knows it's the right thing to do. But that also goes for female Revan on the Temple summit.

[stoffe]

And with that logic, you'd wonder why a light side Revan didn't stay behind and rebuild the Republic fleet.

 

I doubt a Lightside Revan could have stayed behind with the Republic for long at any rate. The Jedi may be quick to forgive, but the millions or even billions of people who've had their worlds razed, lives destroyed and loved ones killed during the war started by Darth Revan may be much less forgiving. Even if Revan's true identity was kept secret the truth would leak out sooner or later since high-ranking individuals in the Republic and Sith remnant would know, as do the Exchange and Genoharadan.

 

A Revan staying behind in the Republic would quickly become a liability for both the Senate and the Jedi Order as the masses or people hurt by the war would demand revenge/justice on the one ultimately responsible. It was probably best for everyone that she left for the unknown regions (well, perhaps not Carth/Bastila, but everyone else ).

[Jediphile]

Bastila should turn from the DS not just because she loves Revan but because, more importantly, she knows it's the right thing to do. But that also goes for female Revan on the Temple summit.

 

You do not change your perspective based on some philosophical mumbo-jumbo. You're far more likely to do it for the things that matter to you, and love can be a rather powerful motive.

 

Which is one reason why I prefer the Revan-Bastila romance, particularly in the light of Jolee's comments: "Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love.Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you... not condemn you." - that's exactly what it did for Bastila if Revan is LS male.

[Melly]

that's exactly what it did for Bastila if Revan is LS male.

 

And the same thing could be said for LS F!Revan in regards to Carth, when Bastila makes her offer on the Temple Summit.

 

Also, I never said that love shouldn't play a part, I said it shouldn't be the only reason.

[Emperor Devon]

The Jedi may be quick to forgive, but the millions or even billions of people who've had their worlds razed, lives destroyed and loved ones killed during the war started by Darth Revan may be much less forgiving.

 

True, a lot of people would blame him, though he could've done a lot of good by staying behind and mopping up the remnants of the Sith, rebuilding the 100-member Jedi Order, stabilizing the Republic, etc.

 

But this is all moot for my DSM Revan.

[Jediphile]

And the same thing could be said for LS F!Revan in regards to Carth, when Bastila makes her offer on the Temple Summit.

 

Also, I never said that love shouldn't play a part, I said it shouldn't be the only reason.

 

Seems more relevant in the male story to me, since it's directly between the two people involved in the discussion, whereas Carth is not involved in Revan's choice in the temple. Besides, Revan was not "saved" by love, since it was instead of a seduction - did Revan want the power or not? And when the choice is made, love does not seem to be factor. It very clearly is when LSM Revan tries to redeem Bastila.

[Lantzen]

I usaly play DSF, so i guess i go with that. But i really dont care, if Revan play a role in K3, i hope it will be the same system as in K2 that decide what gender Revan is

[Jediphile]

I usaly play DSF, so i guess i go with that. But i really dont care, if Revan play a role in K3, i hope it will be the same system as in K2 that decide what gender Revan is

 

In that we agree. Although LA may have decided in their wisdom to make the canonical incarnation of Revan a lightsided individual of the male gender - which is the option I would most assuredly choose - for the sake of reference to the character in other media, it nevertheless seems fairly certain to say that with the player-decided optioin of said gender and alignment in TSL, the KotOR games themselves do not follow the canonical tradition of following a strictly imposed chain of events upon a character that may have previously been decided upon by the player. So while I would most certainly choose the aforementioned set of circumstances that canon seeks to dictate, it nonetheless is clear that I would do so solely out of a personal preference for the character, and clearly not because the power that be see fit to say that this is so. And in the same manner, I shall insist on an Exile that is also a lightsided male, regardless of whatever verdict the powers that be might decide to canonically impose upon the character in a like manner.

 

Short version: Fingers off Revan and Exile. I (meaning the player) decide what their genders and alignments are. Period!

[KPH2293]

 

After I said it had no bearing? Seems like an odd thing to do.

 

I was just giving an idea.

 

Um, no he didn't. He gave us a link to Wikipedia, which can be edited by anyone, and is NOT an official source (i.e. it's not LucasArts). And like Emperor Devon has said twice now, it has no bearing on whether you prefer female or male Revan and what you play each time you load up the game.

 

Leland Chee also said that Revan's canonically an LSM. And he's an official source for continuity. And I don't recall saying that you can't play Revan as female, or darkside. I only said that LSM is what canonically happened in the star wars universe. Nobody has to agree with it, or follow it, like I do.

 

Yoshi, I'm not going to argue with you about which is better

 

Let me say this right now, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm merely going to state my opinions on what you said.

 

but suffice to say I don't like the Force Bond's possibility of interfering with the natural progression of the romance between Bastila and Revan

 

The force bond is a plot element, it didn't cause them to fall in love. Bastila only said this because she doesn't want it to complicate the mission, Therefore, she's looking for a way to deny her true feelings for Revan. (Though I like how she doesn't care later) Wildcat's post on the 5th page, also addresses this.

 

(which is something I also don't like with "the General" and his/her followers either).

 

2 questions:

 

1. Who are you talking about?

2. What?

 

, I also don't like the fact that you spend so little time with Bastila (compared to Carth)

 

True, you spend more time with Carth. But you spend about 4 and a half planets with Bastila. I think that's long enough for a romance to form.

 

and I also don't like the whole "she turned from the DS because of Revan's love" statements. Bastila should turn from the DS not just because she loves Revan but because, more importantly, she knows it's the right thing to do. But that also goes for female Revan on the Temple summit.

 

I like that the LSM Revan is more affected with Bastila's fall to the dark side. (I like story's with tragedies in them) He's basically heartbroken over it, though all this pain goes away, when he redeems her. The LSF Revan however, is different.

 

Rather than be greatly hurt, the LSF Revan is basically angry at Bastila, for turning on them. Though this goes away immediately, when Carth tell's the LSF Revan he love's her. I don't like that the tragedy (If you could really call it that, if Revan's an LSF) goes away that fast. I like if it sticks around for a while, and than goes away. (LSM story is an example of this) To me, LSM seems like it's much better, at this part, and pretty much every other part as well. (Please people, don't snap at me for saying that last statement. As I said, it's only my opinion.)

 

Also, here are some reasons why I don't like the Carth romance

 

1.Carth already has a son, who's an adult.

 

2.Carth has been married before.

 

3.I don't understand Carth. His personality is basically saying "Saul killed my wife, therefore I should flirt with you, but I shouldn't trust you" What the hell?! If you don't trust someone, then why would you flirt with them? Could someone please explain this to me? (Of course, this is only if you're PC's female. His reasons seem more clear to me, for not trusting you, if you're PC's male)

[Melly]

2 questions:

 

1.Who are you talking about?

2.What?

The Exile and his/her followers, (for the sake of convience I'm going to call the Exile "she') She develops Force Bonds with other that make them follower her against their will. That doesn't sound like the basis for good relationships. The only possible exceptions could be Bao-Dur and Disciple since they knew the Exile before she hit wound status. But even then she still influence people. Vrook rants about this to Vandar in the holo-record the droid on Dantooine.

 

I like that the LSM Revan is more affected with Bastila's fall to the dark side. (I like story's with tragidies in them) He's basically heartbroken over it, though all this pain goes away, when he redeem's her. The LSF Revan however, is different. Rather than be greatly hurt, the LSF Revan is basically angry at Bastila, for turning on them. Though this goes away immediatly, when Carth tell's the LSF Revan he love's her. I don't like that the tragedy (If you could really call it that, if Revan's an LSF) goes away that fast. I like if it sticks around for a while, and than goes away. (LSM story is an example of this) To me, LSM seems like it's much better, at this part, and pretty much every other part as well. (Please people, don't snap at me for saying that last statement. As I said, it's only my opinion.)

It wasn't for me. When I saw her on the temple top for the first time with my LS female character my first thought was "oh, no". And I tried everything in my power to redeem her, even after Carth's love speech. I was not angry at Bastila, neither was my PC, she was just disappointed and angry at Malak. Also when Malak first took Bastila, I envisioned Carth dragging my F!Revan off the Leviathan by force because she didn't want to leave Bastila in Malak's hands.

 

Also I want to add one thing that perhaps Bastila's fall is more powerful if you play LSM, however, finding out your Revan is tens times as powerful if your romancing Carth than it is romancing Bastila. Bastila already knows you're Revan, Carth doesn't, which is a major kick in the gut. And the fact that the information was given to him by Saul Karath is another twist of the knife. There's a bug that prevents to the following conversation from firing, however, it can be restored with cjt2020's Carth romance fix mod, this is the dialog that is supposed to take place after you escaped the Leviathan if your PC if female. Shayla is my PC:

 

Shayla: We have to go back for Bastila!

Carth: Not so fast. I need to know if Malak said about you is true of not, first. You aren’t... you can’t be, can you?

Shayla: It looks that way. I’m… Darth Revan.

Mission: Revan? What? What are you talking about? Is this some kind of joke?

Carth: No it’s no joke. The Jedi Council captured Revan and erased the Dark Lord’s mind, programming it with a new identity. Saul Karath told me on the Leviathan and Bastila confirmed it!

Mission: You’re Darth Revan? This is… this is big. Do you… do you remember anything about being the Dark Lord?

Shayla: Small bits. A few strange dreams and visions. That’s all.

Mission: Just a few flashes? That’s it? Nothing more? Then I don’t think there’s a problem.

Mission: It seems to me that if you don’t really remember anything about being Revan then it doesn’t really matter anymore. You are who you are now, right?

Carth: Of course it still matters! How do we know more memories won’t come flooding back? How do we know Revan won’t suddenly turn on us?

Carth: I have been such a fool! I… I swore to protect you! And here you were the enemy all this time!

Shayla: I’m not your enemy Carth, I swear!

Carth: But… you’re the one responsible for the death of my wife, the destruction of my home world! You destroyed my life!

Carth: How could I have been such a fool! How could I have not known?! How could you betray me like this!

Shayla: Please Carth don’t do this to me!

Carth: You should have known. I…**sigh** I should have figured it out. I just can’t… was, was everything a lie then? Everything we talked about?

Shayla: Everything that was important was real, Carth.

Carth: Are you sure? I’m not sure what to believe anymore whose to say that your old life won’t come back… all of it?

Carth: Was the woman we knew Revan or someone else? Will you change into Revan? How… how can any of use trust you?

Mission: Well I trust you! I know you.. and you’re not Revan anymore. Whatever you used to be, you’re one of use now!

Zaalbar: I agree with Mission. I swore a life-debt to the person you are, not the person you were.

Mission: Big Z and I will stick by you. We owe you our lives: we won’t desert you now!

Carth: I don’t know if I can get over it that easily, Mission. I mean… after all Revan did… how could any of us forgive her?

Canderous: Everyone knows it was Malak who gave the order to attack your people, Carth. You can’t blame Revan for that.

Carth: I… I suppose you’ve proven yourself to be a friend of the Republic by your actions so far…Revan. But can I trust you? Can any of us?

***insert other companion talks here***

Shayla: Well, Carth… what are you going to do?

Carth: I don’t know. Maybe I just need time to. Uh… to think about it.

Carth: The others seem to trust you… and we need you to stop the Sith. And I suppose Malak is the real enemy here. But I don’t have much choice but to go along with this for now, do I?

Shayla: I won’t let you down, Carth. I promise.

Carth: I want to believe you. You’ve proven yourself time and time again during our mission, but this is a little much for me to wrap my mind around.

Shayla: How do you think I feel?

Carth: This must be even more of a shock to you… I don’t know how you even keep going. I guess we both just have to find a way to push forward.

Carth: Don’t worry about me- I’m a soldier. I can put aside my misgivings for now. We can, uh… we can talk later, you and I. Just give me time.

Carth: So I guess that’s it then… we keep going. We’ve still got one more Star Map to uncover if we’re going to find that Star Forge and save Bastila. So let’s do it before it’s too late.

 

The first time I saw this in-game it had me, literally, in tears. Raphael Sbarge is an excellent voice actor.

 

And the Quest log for Carth:

Carth is devastated after finding out who you truly are. Give him some time. Perhaps once the Star Maps have been found and the mission is nearer to its conclusion, you might want to try talking to him again.

 

Also, here are some reasons why I don't like the Carth romance

1.Carth already has a son, who's an adult.

Um, so? Revan's not exactly young, at least not mine. I mean she's old enough to be Dustil's mother. So....

 

2.Carth has been married before.

Just means he's more experienced, something I like in a man.

 

3.I don't understand Carth, his personallity is basically saying "Saul killed my wife, therefore I should flirt with you, but I shouldn't trust you"

What the hell?! If you don't trust someone, then why would you flirt with them? Could someone please explain this to me?

He flirts with the female PC to distract her from the questions she wants to ask and he doesn't want to answer.

 

Yoshi, I have to ask. Have you ever played the female romance with Carth?

[Jediphile]

The Exile and his/her followers, (for the sake of convience I'm going to call the Exile "she') She develops Force Bonds with other that make them follower her against their will. That doesn't sound like the basis for good relationships. The only possible exceptions could be Bao-Dur and Disciple since they knew the Exile before she hit wound status. But even then she still influence people. Vrook rants about this to Vandar in the holo-record the droid on Dantooine.

 

Yes, but that's mostly in battle and so. Note how especially Atton and Handmaiden can jump into action in ways they did not intend consciously. It's not as if they don't have an opinion of their own that you don't get to hear if you want to. Indeed, it is entirely possible to lose influence with them, and how does that add up if they have no sense of self and are slaves to the Exile's will?

 

It wasn't for me. When I saw her on the temple top for the first time with my LS female character my first thought was "oh, no". And I tried everything in my power to redeem her, even after Carth's love speech. I was not angry at Bastila, neither was my PC, she was just disappointed and angry at Malak. Also when Malak first took Bastila, I envisioned Carth dragging my F!Revan off the Leviathan by force because she didn't want to leave Bastila in Malak's hands.

 

Well, how do you think LSM Revan felt at that point? That was the woman he loved, who just sacrificed herself. If the game would have let me, Carth would have been sliced to pieces for even daring to suggest I couldn't go back for her! There was simply more at stake for LSM Revan, whereas a LSF Revan can basically just shrug and say that Bastila got what she deserved for her part in the jedi conspiracy and good riddance. For me LSM Revan's feelings were far more conflicting. On the one hand, he is mad at Bastila for using him like this while keeping the truth from him - truth about himself - even in spite of her claims of love for him. But on the other hand, my Revan is still in love with her and doesn't want her to die or be tortured by Malak...

 

Also I want to add one thing that perhaps Bastila's fall is more powerful if you play LSM, however, finding out your Revan is tens times as powerful if your romancing Carth than it is romancing Bastila. Bastila already knows you're Revan, Carth doesn't, which is a major kick in the gut. And the fact that the information was given to him by Saul Karath is another twist of the knife. There's a bug that prevents to the following conversation from firing, however, it can be restored with cjt2020's Carth romance fix mod, this is the dialog that is supposed to take place after you escaped the Leviathan if your PC if female.

 

Actually, I'm glad it's cut, because it seems pretty weak to me. Carth basically goes from being dismayed at you to being sort-of okay with it in one conversation. That's not very compelling. Carth should have been incenced. He should have pulled out his gun and threatened to kill you out of sheer revenge, anguish, and sense of betrayal. If you've already helped him save Dustil, then it makes a little more sense, because there is a basis for trusting you by restoring a part of his past that he thought was lost. But even so, Carth still abandons his entire belief system in just one conversation and is even on the verge of forgiving Revan. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me, especially if Revan is female and he has feelings for her, in which case he should feel more betrayed by Revan than he was by Saul Karath. It should have pushed him over the edge.

 

Um, so? Revan's not exactly young, at least not mine. I mean she's old enough to be Dustil's mother. So....

 

Revan was a young jedi when s/he joined the Mandalorian Wars a mere seven years before the events of KotOR1. By my calculations, that would make Revan around 30 at the most, which is scarcely enough to be Dustil's mother.

[Vaelastraz]

Revan's age cannot be said. However, If you assume Revan entered the war when he was 20, he is 25 in Kotor I. That makes sense, after all his face looks like that age, and people call him a "young person" in Kotor.

Of course people might say Revan was way older. But how come he is called a young person then. Do you call a 35-40 year old a young person?

 

 

carth on the Other hand:

1.) Looks older

2.) Has a grown up son who i estimate to be around 18

3.) HAs way more experience

 

Carth could be around 40-50. Carth is at least 15 years older than Revan.

 

 

I think this debate is useless, it is up to personal preference which romance is better. You can't "argue" Revan-Carth is better because you like it more.

 

For me, Revan-Bastila is better, as Bastila plays a far more important role in Kotor than Carth. And Carth's character is annoying for me. He whines a lot, and doesn't have the charisma compareable Characters (Addon *cough*) have.

 

But my opinion is as biased as everyone else's.

This debate is rather useless

[Jediphile]

Well, Wookieepedia's timeline - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline - places the Battle of Taris, which is the beginning of KotOR, in 3956 BBY. It also places the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars in 3965 BBY (nine years before). But note that the Republic is not involved in the early years, and that Revan's and Malak's defiance of the jedi council is not said to occur until 3963 BBY, which is seven years before the Battle of Taris.

[Melly]

I think this debate is useless, it is up to personal preference which romance is better. You can't "argue" Revan-Carth is better because you like it more.

 

True, but you can't argue Bastila/Revan is better for the same reason. I prefer Carth and I know that others don't. I was simply giving my reasons why I prefer the Carth/Revan romance over the Bastila/Revan romance.

 

And Carth is 38, says so in his bio on the Star Wars databank. I see Revan as being in his/her 30's so Carth's age, to me, is irrelevent when speaking of the Carth/Revan romance.

 

I also have a reason for like F!Revan better, because I cannot in any way, shape, or form, see Juhani opening up to a man, considering her past.

[Totenkopf]

Ran into a funny little anamoly, I suppose, while playing with LitRidl's warp and cheat band. After setting influence with Mandalore to 100, had a conversation concerning Revan. At one point he refers to Revan as a man, than in the next exchange refers to Revan as female. I suppose this could have something to do with the mod, though I set Revan as LSM for this game. So, if Mandalore's confused........... ;^)

[Anglu]

Revan's a lady in my universe. I can't bring myself to play KotOR with a male Revan because I played female first and I found the game so utterly immersive that I became Revan. And being female myself, that put the game much closer to me than any other RPG I've played.

 

Dito. When I started our Fanfic, I created Revan/Diotima after me - without recognising it - and my brother continued this way - but he recongnised.

Erm, and who's the Exile, by the way?

 

 

I like the Carth/Revan romance a lot better than the Bastila/Revan romance, too.

 

Exactly, that's it! The Romance between Carth and Revan reminds me a bit of Leia and Han *gg*. I just love it!

[Beery]

Is Revan male or female. Vote and discuss why u think he/she sholud be male or female.

 

I only played Revan as female. The surprise works best if she's female.

[Diego Varen]

Erm, and who's the Exile, by the way?

 

You haven't played TSL (KOTOR II), if you don't know who the Exile is.

 

And Beery, welcome to the Forums, but don't double Post. It's against the rules.

[Beery]

And Beery, welcome to the Forums, but don't double Post. It's against the rules.

 

Thanks, but I don't know how to quote two different people without doing it in two separate posts, and it's hard to know which thread you're posting in if you arrived at the message by using the search feature.

 

Anyway, surely 'double posting' is posting the exact same thing twice. I posted consecutively, but with different content.

 

By the way, where are the rules?

[ChAiNz.2da]

By the way, where are the rules?

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169078

 

The big Forum on the main index that says rules

 

To quote multiple people, just use the quote tags:

 

 [quote] post you're quoting [/quote] 

[Beery]

Okay, I've read all of that stuff. I still don't see where it says that posting consecutively is outlawed. Double posting (spamming) is a separate issue, and I can see why that would be disallowed. I've tried to be nice about this issue, but this is looking like a bullying attack on a member who is 'intruding on your little clique'. I don't know where this nonsense is coming from, but it's nonsense. Personally, I think we're doing more damage to the thread by discussing this irrelevance than I did by posting two consecutive messages. I think we ought to stay on topic (which my posts did).

 

Those who thought my consecutive posts - this supposed 'violation of the posting rules' were an issue of burning import could surely have taken their concerns to PM rather than posting their off-topic concerns in a thread where such warnings shouldn't belong. Next time, it might be a good idea to get a moderator to police the forums rather than a forum member taking it upon himself. I'll take the amateur forum police's warnings under advisement, and I'll continue to post based on a rational interpretation of the ACTUAL rules until told otherwise by a real moderator.

 

Also, a 'Super Moderator' might be well advised to treat members with some respect. When I ask where the rules can be found, a simple direction is better than a put-down. I'm shocked to see that sort of abuse come from someone who's supposed to be looking after the forums. I haven't posted on here in some time, and I didn't get here through the main forum page. If the sort of rudeness displayed in the last post is the norm here I can see why I stopped using these forums.

 

Anyway, just to fix this nonsensical 'problem' (which seems to me to be a mere matter of timing ) I've deleted my second post and in the spirit of on-topic-ness I've reposted it here, so that some other peoples' posts come between this one and the earlier one, as if that makes all the difference . Hopefully this repost will satisfy everyone:

 

------------------

 

Well in the KOTOR 2 FAQ Revan will be either female or male depending on the answers you give of what happened in KOTOR 1.

 

Yeah, supposedly, but it doesn't work.

[Vaelastraz]

I only played Revan as female. The surprise works best if she's female.

 

Elabrate on that please.

Just how does the surprise (I assume you talk about the PC finding out he's/she's Revan) work better when the PC is female?

 

I'm really curious.

 

 

Also, I don't know what kind of forum language you are used to, but for me this is definitly the most polite and disciplined forum...and I post in a lot of forums.

[Beery]

Elabrate on that please.

Just how does the surprise

(I assume you talk about the PC finding out he's/she's Revan) work better when the PC is female?

 

You may want to mark that as a spoiler in your post too, just in case there are people who are gonna be reading this who haven't played the game. This is, after all, THE big revelation of the game.

 

 

The tendency in fiction and especially in Star Wars is to have male villains (Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Vader - all the dark lords of the Sith in the movies are male), so the revelation comes as more of a surprise when the 'villain' is female. This comes out of a general misogynism (or at least a dismissal of the possibility of a strong female villain) in modern culture, but although it's based in prejudice it still has an effect. A male Darth Revan would have been more 'usual' and would not have been so shocking.

 

[Anglu]

Well, that's very well explained, Beery