USA Successor

[yaebginn]

I never said 'God is good' in this post. He is, but that doesnt have anything to do with what I'm saying. and if you dont restate them in shorter sentences, I wont respond, your choice. I dont honestly care either way.

[Gabez]

You're obviously thicker than I thought. >:

 

I know you never said "God is good", but if you read my post, then you'll have realised I was using that as an example of what Christians can say. And no, I will NOT repost in "shorter sentences" so your tiny brain can comprehend what I'm saying. It's not my fault you're stupid. >:

[yaebginn]

Not stupid, just value conveinience. You posted those things most likely so I will answer them, I will not answer them or even read them, if they are all jumbled up.

[Ray Jones]

holla. i would call that ignorant.

 

also "psycological pain" is not pain. it is more a mental thing, made up by our brains (-> part of our rotten body??). there are ways to get over that..

[yaebginn]

its still pain, just not physical. and if you dojnt turn from your ways, you can see what kind of pain is in hell. its up to you.

[tFighterPilot]

Good thing I believe in reincarnation

[Ray Jones]

see.. emotional pain "exists" in or mind which is "in" our brain which again is "controlled" through chemical and physical processes. if there is such thing like hell i will be there without my body, without my brain, without those chemical and physical processes. there cannot be such thing as pain as we know it. so stop talking as if you know what will be. none of us two knows what is really will go on. and noone of us can prove their "theories".

 

and again, i dont believe in your hell. if you think i will go there it will change nothing for me. and i am a much better than many chistians or mulims or whatever are. so it is totally irrelevant for me if someone thinks i will go to hell (whatever that means). also "believing" would not change my life in any way because i dont have to be sorry for anything i did in my life. maybe because i tend to think before i do things.

[Gabez]

You anger me NO END, yaebginn. I wasn't calling your views stupid, I was commenting on the fact that you can't read "long sentences". My points are NOT jumbled up. If you look at them then they are in bullet-point format (I didn't actually do a bullet point but I will now to please your limited mental capacity). >:

 

• If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
  
• If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
  
• If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
  
• If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
  
• If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
  
• Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
  
• If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.

 

For more, see my previous posts. >:

 

 

Also, Rayjones... great point, but there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level. I don't full understand it, and it's at very early stages of research, but it's worth keeping your ear to the ground for, and more importantly gives a viable alterntaive from which to argue from.

[Mort-Hog]

As a Christian, you accept that God came to Abraham, and you accept as God came to Jesus Christ (in some way or rather), but why do you refuse Muhammed?

It doesn't make any sense. The arguments you use against Muhammed (oh he made it all up) can be used just as well against Jesus Christ and/or Abraham.

 

The main argument here is over the divinity of Christ. Islam states that Jesus Christ is the prophet of God, and that Christians turned away from God because they worshipped Jesus Christ as a false idol.

Judging by what a lot of you here have said, that criticism seems fair. You are all ignoring God, because you worship Jesus Christ.

God was not pleased with this and so he came to Muhammed to set things straight.

 

Now if Jesus Christ was the son of God, you'd think he'd know about it from birth. And so you'd think he'd start helping people from the start.

No, the guy did bugger all for 30 years. All his miracle-doing happened when he was middle aged, and lasted about two years or so.

Makes a lot more sense to think that God came to Jesus and told him to do stuff.

 

 

 

If you are to believe in God there is no reason in the world why you should be a Christian. You should be a Muslim.

 

I am not a Muslim because I do not believe in God.

 

I think Gabez is taking the God lesson, that's a totally different debate, and one that is much harder, but if you do believe in God, you should be a Muslim. That debate is much easier.

 

 

Hahaha "American media is liberal"..

 

The reason that the media doesn't post anything good about the Iraq invasion... is because there isn't anything good about it. Even your conservative media can't downright lie. Not blatantly, anyway.

American media is conservative or slightly less conservative. Fox News is a joke. We got it after the WTC attacks and it made the event quite amusing.

The reason that American media is conservative is because Americans are conservative and will only buy conservative newspapers or tune in to conservative newstations, and so the media is trying to 'sell the product' so to speak. This in turn makes the Americans even more conservative. It's a viscous circle and it is inevitable with privatised news stations. Only an organisation that has no intention of making a profit will be anything remotely close to objective. And this is why government-funded newspapers are potentially the best way to go.

 

If you ever watch the BBC or European media, you'd see how conservative your media is.

 

As for 'everyone knows our president'.

 

Firstly, no they don't. Yes, Europeans and those in the Middle-East probably do, but there are plenty of people who have no reason to know who he is.

 

Secondly, they know who he is because they hate him. "Everyone" knows who Hitler is. That doesn't make it a 'good' thing.

 

 

As for "America is the youngest country in the world"... uh... what are you talking about.

 

East Timor is the youngest country in the world. It was founded in 2002.

 

Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Israel, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania.... all of these countries, and many more, have been founded long after America. They are all 'younger'.

 

 

North Korea has the largest military in the world, not America.

 

America probably has the most nuclear weapons, and chemical and biological weapons. Say, who exactly are we to fear for having weapons of mass destruction?

But as the World Trade Centre attacks showed, all of that is meaningless. America is totally powerless in the "war on terror" and America is doomed to fail, mostly because of people like you. The whole operation cost around $2000, most of which was in renting appartments and vehicles.

 

All it took was a dozen soldiers willing to give their lives and they took down the American symbol of capitalism. As those towers fell, they changed the world.

 

And you're kidding yourself if you think it's not going to happen again. Until America drastically changes its foreign policy, it is a sitting duck for attacks. There will be suicide bombings on the streets of Washington before long.

 

Americans are being slaughtered every day by these same suicide soldiers. All those nukes aren't helping now.

 

That network of individuals, giving their lives to attack their oppressors, it is they who have the power. For every soldier the Americans kill a dozen more rise up. The struggle will only build up as this generation is raised in hatred; the soldiers fighting now are Cold War veterans, but the soldiers of the future will be a new generation of martyrs. They will be even more deadly as their cause is directed squarely at America, and their tactics are radically different to the outdated warfare of Americans.

 

Terrorism? It hasn't even started yet.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Gabez

• If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?

 

oh, what a neat question. i would say god cant, but multidimensional chaos maths can..

 

.. there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level.

 

interesting, indeed. i've heard about that too. maybe it could kinda end up in some kind of "reincarnation" theory.

[Mort-Hog]

There was some American scientist in the 20th century that weighed people before and after they died and calculated the weight of the soul.

He concluded that it weights 21 grams.

(It is interesting, but he uses very dubious methods and his findings really have no scientific value)

[Ray Jones]

yes, i'm not even sure if it would have a mass. as a form of energy it mustn't necessarily have one..

[yaebginn]

I said one of the youngest, which it is. Only a bit over 200 years old. Thats young. The media is very liberal. If you say it's not, you are either ignorant or stupid. A bunch of gays were holding a rally and banging on people's cars and stuff, where was it no the news? Nowhere, because they want you to support gays. If hetro did that, it'd be all over the news. God and Jesus are one in three. They are united into one. Jesus is God on earth, God is God in heaven, and Holy Spirit is God in us. Australia knows our president. Most countries with a source to the outside world has knowledge of our president.

 

1. I dont know

2. Time is not necessary for thought and act. And he can experience time, it just has no effect on him.

3. It's just like if you were a very predictable person. People can know what you're going to do, but you dont, so that means its still new to you. And if you were a compulsive liar, you can still lie, but the person knows you are lying.

4. He loves and is so loving, that he is willing to let us make our own decisions. We are corrupt, so we make wrong decisions.

5. A square circle doesnt exist, they are two seperate things that are only what they are because they are unlike the other. The question itself is invalid. It's like asking if I can make a blue red.

6. For some event in the future? To fulfill some prophecy? To fulfill his plan? I cant read God's mind. God was just there. Something had to be first, why not God. I dont completely understand it, but I will in Heaven.

[Gabez]

Time is neccesary for thought and act. The move you CAN make, however, is that God doesn't need time - but then you have to think whether that's logically impossbile or not, and if it is, then see your answer to 5.

 

You've also misunderstood 3). If God is all-knowing, then he KNOWS what you will do in the future. He doesn't predict it, he KNOWS. Therefore there is no free will, therefore you cannot say that evil is caused by our free will. (I'm not saying this is actually true, but I'm saying it like it's a fact so that you can mull it over).\

 

Otherwise, excellent answers. I would urge you to read what else I said, though, please.

[yaebginn]

Yes, he knows. He knows exactly what we're going to do. But we dont. It's new to us. He's just watching from above. Like watching a re-run of a tv show.

 

EDIT- Hell is described a bit in the Bible, tahst how I know vaguely what its like. I cant go back in an edit to look what eklse was said, so I'll post another post in another post. oh, and time isnt necessary, if I was trapped on an island with no source of time, in a cave lit by never ending torches, I could still live and think and exist. God is oblivious to time, he created it, he has power over it.

[Mort-Hog]

Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

 

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

[yaebginn]

Originally posted by Gabez

Okay, I updated my post with more stuff in the time it took you to reply. Go read it again.

 

The devil is a poor reason for evil. If you must know, then the only philisophically satisfying answer that I know of to the problem of evil is that God wants us to be perfect, and we can only become perfect through free will, therefore God can't intervene with our affairs, therefore evil is allowed, but eventaully everyone will be made perfect and the end will justify the means.

 

Problems with this: even if we're all perfect in the end, it still doesn't justufy a naked boy of six being ripped apart by hounds whilst his mother watches. There's no reason for that. Problem #2 is that if God is all powerful, surely He can intervine without ruining our free will (debatable, but I won't go into that). Ditto for the Holocaust - that does not sound like the act of an all-loving God, and seriously contradicts itself.

 

Doomgiver: I see the Bible as a description of ethics rather than an explanation to life the universe and everything (to nick a book title).

 

God doesnt want us to be perfect, well, he does, but he doesnt expect it. He knows we sin and we have a sin nature. And we will only be perfect in Heaven, not on earth. God didnt create the holocaust and I dont know why he allowed it, maybe for some plan in the future? I'm not God, only he knows.

[yaebginn]

Originally posted by Mort-Hog

Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

 

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

 

It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.

[Mort-Hog]

Most people in the US consider anything that seems to the the left of their ideas to be Liberal. There are actually five categories of ideology, not two or three. Listed from left to right, they are:

 

* Radical

* Liberal

* Moderate

* Republican

* Reactionary

 

Most Americans label themselves as liberal to conservative. Very few label themselves as radical, while virtually none of them label themselves as reactionary. Many that call themselves conservative actually seem far more reactionary. For example, anybody who seriously agrees with the platforms of either the Libertarian or Reform parties are thoroughly reactionary. Most of the fiery "conservative" show hosts such as O'Rielly or Limbaugh are also more reactionary than conservative. In fact, there really is no major real major news network in the USA that's more liberal than conservative, aside from the BBC, which has only medium liberal leanings. CNN has a mildly conservative stance, while ABC, NBC, and CBS are fully conservative. Of course, ABC is owned by Disney (easily a strongly conservative company), while NBC is owned by General Electric (conservative as well).

Fox, on the other hand, is insanely right-wing. Supporting any administration through all its mistakes is not patriotic; it's favoring dictatorship.

 

 

You try reading European newspapers before you claim American media to be "liberal".

[yaebginn]

why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.

[Gabez]

Okay, so you say God knows exactly what we are going to do. Say, He knows that tomorow you will wear a blue jumper.

 

So tomorow comes and you bring out of your closet at random two jumpers. One is blue, one is red. You ponder for a while which one to wear, before finally deciding on the blue one - out of your own free will. Or is it? If God already knew, then surely the decision is already made - and thus you had no choice but to choose the blue jumper, thus you had no choice at all.

 

You have also misunderstood by what I mean by time. You say that if you were trapped on an island "with no source of time" - I pressume you mean a way of telling the time, like a clock. This isn't what I mean at all. Clocks are not time, they simply measure time.

 

Imagine seeing the world from 2 dimensions instead of 3. To see an object move would look like:

 

--

----

------

----

--

 

etc. etc. It is passing through time, and needs time in order to move. Time is simply progress of things. Without time nothing can function. I hope this makes it clearer.

 

God wants us to love and worship him, and become "like his image" (BADLY misquoted - I'm sorry but I don't have a Bible near me), and the only way to do that is through free will, as perfection can not come ready made. We will be perfect in heaven, yes, but in order for that to be so, we need to have the chance to sin against God in earth - if that makes any sense.

 

I don't think it's good enough to say "Dunno about the Hollocaust" - I suggest you visit Auswitches (sp) and then think about it.

 

Also, I have a personal question, just out of interest: do you believe in the Bible word for word? I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm just curious.

 

On the subject of America: don't forget that the country has had a lot of advantages other "crappy" (meaning inferior) countries have not had. Lots of fresh land, lots of immigrants bringing skills, democracy (because said immigrants wanted more freedom), the combination of many states etc. etc. I could go on. You could easily see America as Britain's lovechild, or something. Anyway, the point is that we are all global citizens of this earth. Think of it like a playground. A group of kids who used to be in Britain, France, spain etc.'s gang have joined their own gang and done very well. Egypt is the old caretaker who is being made fun of by the child gangs. The European powers are the older boys, but they don't have the strenght of youth anymore, but they're becoming more united. etc. etc.

[Mort-Hog]

Originally posted by yaebginn

It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.

 

 

It's terribly amusing that a Christian makes that claim. They do totally reject Jesus Christ, you know.

Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "got so far".

Economically, Japan and China probably have much greater economic growth rates than America has ever had.

But it isn't like America has managed anything on its own. Exploitation of other countries is the prime mover of American foreign policy, and were it not for the illegal labour of Asian sweatshops, the American economy would implode. China and Japan have managed their economic achievements on their own.

 

Socially, America is awfully backwards. America desperately clings on to way outdated values and traditions. I think I've covered this point in depth.

 

And yes, an awful lot of people would take offense to being called "crappy" countries, and rightly so. I think it is a perfect example of how Americans percieve the rest of the world, and a perfect example of why the world hates America.

I have travelled to many of the former Soviet states, and to various Middle-Eastern countries, and I very much enjoyed my stay there. They were lovely countries, and I would certainly enjoy living there, if I could get used to the climate.

 

Western culture is terribly individualistic, you look out for number one, it's a dog eat dog world, every man is out for himself, etc. Middle-Eastern culture is very community-based, a very social culture. I once took a camel ride through a small village in Egypt, and I found that on the corner of every other street, there was a barrel. This barrel had water in it, and a metal cup next to it. Anyone could come and drink from it and no-one paid anything. Some bloke would have to fill up this barrel every morning, but he wouldn't get any money for it.

In the west, this would seem ridiculous, getting something for free, without a catch, but in Egypt this was normal, because everyone looks after everyone else.

 

I liked that.

[tFighterPilot]

Originally posted by yaebginn

It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.

Stupid american, I guess you don't know anything outside your own country. This statement does not mean all americans are stupid, only the likes of you.

 

Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.

The f*ck are you talking about? It was very legally! There was a UN vote and all.

[Mort-Hog]

Originally posted by yaebginn

why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.

 

 

Read my post.

 

The reason you'd read European newspapers is so you'd actually get an idea of what's going on in the world.

 

Just because they say the media is liberal doesn't make it so.

The reason Americans would say the media is liberal is because they're stupid. It isn't liberal at all.

 

It's only because you're so used to crazy super right-wing conservatism that anything slightly less conservative is instantly branded 'liberal'.

 

Read my post.

[yaebginn]

And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. back up what you say, tfighter. Dont call someone stupid, then not explain why. And Israel may be mostly jewish, not believing in Jesus, but Israel is largely popular in the Bible and Jesus lived there. Ever hear of free samples? But some of the Mid. East is good, but alot is bad. Just like everywhere. And you get onto me for looking down on other countries! You are just the same way, Mort. But with America.