Thou Shalt Not Kill?

[El Sitherino]

the clock is based soley on mathematics, it has no basis in history. And not everyone follows the christian calendar. If I could I'd follow the Chinese Calendar.

[Ray Jones]

and it wouldnt change much, since all calendars (err.. most of them..?) follow the same thing ^_^ .. err.. like the clock.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by ZDawg

Yes Ty, in a perfect world with perfect people, that would totally be the case.

 

I thought that the Bible had to be 100% accurate because it was God's holy word...I mean, he divinely gave Matthew Mark Luke John the exact words he wanted in the Bible, why wouldn't he do the same to the people translating?

 

Legal or not, murder is murder, defending your country, is not murder.

 

Define defending your country. Yes, I know it sounds silly, but right now it seems like pre-emptive invasions on other countries is "defending yourself"...

 

A comment like "I googled this or that" is completely irrelevant to the point I CLEARLY made.

 

The translations of Greek, Hebrew and Arabic text is not up to google or other website. The bible in many cases was translated by the old priests, who in many cases, edited or changed wording (dumbed it down) so that it wasnt quite so confusing... I know several Greek and Hebrew writers who have studied the bible in original context.

 

Same response as in the "Yes ty, in a perfect world" quote's response.

 

Wrong. If you believe the bible or not, historicly it is one of the most accurate books to date. MANY MANY things revolve around the bible... How about the clock in the right corner of your computer screen? the one based (A.D.) off the death of christ?

 

Wasn't Jesus born actually in 3 A.D?

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by ZDawg

I call bull. First off, as the old saying goes "With great power, comes great responsibility" America OWED it to the people of Iraq to take them out of the things saddam did to them... Gassing entire towns? Lets rape a mans wife, make him watch it, kill him, make his wife watch it, cut her legs off, save her for later... think im joking? Im sick of hearing this crap about Iraq NOT wanting us there... ask all the widows who had their families murdered in front of their faces, seen their daughters raped, and their sons tortured.

 

Fine, if we are in charge of policing the world and making sure that all the bad guys are nice, why are we not in Sudan? Why have all the OTHER dictators of the world been left unchecked, but only Saddam was bad enough to warrant a war, even though he was nothing compared to some of the other ruthless monsters in the world?

 

Ray Jones make an excellent point as he so often does By bringing up the pointlessness of war. I am not perfect by any means, and yet I am not plotting out ways to start or join wars. I hate the very idea of war, so why do we need to be perfect to figure that out?

[ckcsaber]

Originally posted by yaebginn

have you even read the Bible?

 

Yes. Both halfs.

 

What about when GOD killed the firstborn of the Egyptians for not letting the Hebrew slaves go? There are many timesin the Bible when God has helped people win in battle. If you doubt, I'll look and see if I can find some verses.

 

God has not spoken to me and told me to go join the war in Iraq. Personally, I don't believe that the war's purpose is to "defend my country". The war's you describe aren't comparable to the war in Iraq. Almost all the military history in the bible is related to the birth of Israel as a nation.

 

You yourself said that you wanted to join the armed forces for "free training and to pay for college". Both are noble and selfless reasons of course...

 

I follow Jesus' example Yaeg, plain and simple. It is arguable that all the wars that God helped his poeple fight were for the birth of the Messiah.

[toms]

good grief, did IQs just drop all of a sudden while i was away?????

 

I posted loads of QUOTES and LINKS in THIS VERY THREAD about the origins of the ten commandments, the different versions (like the first lot that moses didn't like so he smashed and got another) and the original translations....

the original hebrew said MURDER not KILL!!!!! We already debated this! We know this!!

So why did yaebginn have to start up the whole arguement again by trying to tell ME (who posted all the links/quotes) that killing isn't always murder.

 

*bangs head on keyboard*

 

*repeatedly*

 

Point 1 - Joining the army for training but not intending to fight seems like sponging to me, and also seems like something you can't control. But then i understand that the US army gets most of its recruits from trailerparks where it is the only way out...

 

Point 2 - The old testament god is totally different from the new testament god in terms of things like vengance, killing, rituals and intervention. Jesus is supposed to be the "last word" though, and he was definately against unnecessary killing.

 

Point 3 - IRAQ is a good example of how soldiers who may have just "joined the army for some training" don't get a lot of choice about who they are ordered to kill. Whether or not saddam had anything to do with terrorism, or whether or not he was an evil murderer, the vast majority of the iraqi army had nothing to do with it. Most probably just joined the army for "training" and then this foreign army invaded their country and they were ordered to fight. How can killing them be "necessary" or christian or holy?

 

Point 4 - The hijackers on those planes had probably equally managed to convince themselves that there were enough loopholes and ambiguities in the rules in the koran to make what they did allowable, or even holy. I'd say you were about as misguided as they are.

 

Point 5 - Can you see jesus joining the army?

 

Point 6 - (OT point) since you are now claiming that the currently accepted english translation of the bible is "wrong" and going back to the earlier translations, i assume you take back all your points in the thread about the bible where you claimed it was the word of god and hadn't been altered by all the edits and translations over the years?

 

Point 7 - (OT point) I also assume that as killing is no longer banned, just murder you would (as the jews who use the original translation) accept abortion?

 

Pint 8 - i need a pint.

[tFighterPilot]

I'd have to agree with the fact that it says murder and not kill. I have the original version of the bible. It says "Lo Tirtzach" and not "Lo Taharog"

 

But who are you to decide what's the difference between murder and kill? How is killing Iraqis different from killing a fellow countryman? Would this Iraqi invade the USA and kill your family if you didn't kill him?

 

Yaeb sent me a PM asking if I'm really from Israel, since I know so much about the USA.

[yaebginn]

Originally posted by Tyrion

Then why is it "Thou shalt not kill", not "Thou Shalt not Murder"?

 

Look at Jesus, he didn't fight the Romans who were unfairly prosecuting him, he gave in and let himself die. Should we also not let ourself die in the hands of our enemy and go to heaven?

 

My translation (NIV) says thall shall not murder

 

Jesus didnt fight back because he had to die to save us. Thats the whole point. He let himself die because by his blood, we were saved.

 

A little OT, but I just can't wait to hear how Popeye the sailor man here washes out of basics, because he can't complete one course without stopping to gasp for air. Better start poking some spinnach in that corncob pipe of yours, yae!

wrong thread, and howd u know I had a corncob?

 

Zdawg, I didnt even know about the greek translations and stuff, thats awesome.

 

Ray, how exactly do I teahc hatred? for wanting to defend my famliy? for wanting to eliminate terrorism so that innocents can be safe? Yep, I'm a Hater!

 

Tyrion- AD actually isnt after death. BC IS before christ though. AD is ano domino, meaning 'In the year of our Lord'

 

ET-

Ray Jones make an excellent point as he so often does By bringing up the pointlessness of war.

Thats not an awesome point. [Removed Flame]. If a perfect world, yes, there would be no war. For years upon years, people have thought of what if we all co-existed peacefully. But the problem is greed. There's always one bad apple, and that would ruin the whole thing. Its a good theory, but its just too much to happen realistically.

 

ckcsaber- those arent only reaosns for joining, they are some, and good reasons they are. but I've also said before 'to protect my country and my family' conveinient of you to leave out that, no? do you not forget sept 11? the US was attacked for no reason that day. We didnt do anything wrong. and maybe he didnt tell you, but he told Bush. (bush is a christian) Do you think that just becauseGod didnt tellyou specifically, (or maybe he idd and you just didnt listen) that its wrong to go into Iraq? Do you know that we freed all those people from a ruthless dictator who tortured and killed their families? We saved them.

 

toms- 1. I said one of the reasons for training. I never said I didnt intend to fight, stop putting words in my mouth, please. I do intened to fight, and kill, if neccessary to protect my fellows.

2. Uneccessary killing is murder. and yes, Jesus is against murder. Killing is neccessary now for life. There is always some whack job who doesnt care about life that would love to splityour head wide open. If you want to live, you have to defend yourself. Life isnt perfect.

3. It is christian. They are torturing innocents, raping them, gassing them. And you tihnk its wrng to go in and save them from that? btw, I never said only for training, but part of the learning experince would be killing. It takes alot to be able to kill another human being. I might make a career out of the service, I dont know.

4. [Removed Flame]. They think that when they die, they get 70 virgins. The math doesnt add up. 70 for every man. I mean ,there arent even that many. Cause thats 70 times like, the millions of men that have died. [Removed Flame] You neither know them nor me, and yet you cast judgement. That was a [Removed Flame], toms.

5. And he already is in the army. There is a war going on already. A war for our souls. hes fighting satan, read the bible, dude.

6. Who said that? not me. the NIV translation says murder, not kill. at least, mine does.

7. abortion is muder.

8. Good luck with that, I know a good pub on Causeway you can try out.

 

tfighterpilot- dont twist my words around please. I dont want to get off topic, but if anyone wants to know what I sent tfighter, just ask em and I'll be glad to. and killing an Iraqi is killing in this case, in battle. killing a fellow countryman, (assuming its not self defense) is murder. I would go into it more, but I gotta go right quick.

[tFighterPilot]

[Removed Flames]

[yaebginn]

um, I tihnk u meant to post that in the pipe thread, cause in this thread, all my points are valid.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by yaebginn

My translation (NIV) says thall shall not murder

 

And we all know, of course, that your version of the bible is right and everyone else's is wrong.

 

Jesus didnt fight back because he had to die to save us. Thats the whole point. He let himself die because by his blood, we were saved.

 

We were saved...in that we would go to Heaven instead of Hell. So then why shouldn't we let ourselves die in the hands of our enemy; we'll get to Heaven faster...

 

Tyrion- AD actually isnt after death. BC IS before christ though. AD is ano domino, meaning 'In the year of our Lord'

 

...? I knew that AD meant in the year of our lord. What I'm saying is that Jesus wasn't born until around 3. A.D. Does that mean those two years before we were in the year of the lord who wasn't born...? Edit- After doing another search on google(thus meaning that it might be false), it seems like Jesus Christ was actually born in 3 B.C.[/b[. Still doesn't hurt my argument, though.

 

um, I tihnk u meant to post that in the pipe thread, cause in this thread, all my points are valid.

 

[Removed Flame]

 

And my point is valid because I said so.

 

(Sarcasm alert, sarcasm alert)

[yaebginn]

1. The NIV is like, the most commonly used Bible.

2. Cause thats not our puprose. We have to save others, or try to. It'd be selfish just to commit suicide or whatever just to die faster when there are still lost souls out there.

3. where'd you get this that he was born in 3 ad? I'm curious cause I havent heard this b4.

4. But your point is based on opinion. [Removed Flame Response]

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by yaebginn 1. The NIV is like, the most commonly used Bible.

 

Oh, if we're going by the though of most commonly used means it's true, then Islam is surely the right religion because it's the most commonly practiced one...

 

2. Cause thats not our puprose. We have to save others, or try to. It'd be selfish just to commit suicide or whatever just to die faster when there are still lost souls out there.

 

So the purpose of life is to convert others? Erm, wouldn't it just be easier for God just to send us all to heaven while we're innocent children?

 

4. But your point is based on opinion. You say I am stoopid, but what do you base that on? And my points in this thread have yet to be proven wrong. I've just been compared to a monkey, and called stoopid.

 

....

 

I edited in the sarcasm alert, so I'll just assume you didn't see it. Anyway, I was trying to show you that just because you say your valid, doesn't mean it is. The same applies to us too, however we've also had points refuted, and we've refuted some(most) of your points.

[yaebginn]

1. You said 'and yours is right and everyone elses is wrong' I simply said that most everyone else uses the NIV Bible, so that'd mean most everyone's says murder and not kill.

 

2. The purpose of life differs for everyone.

 

3. You still didnt tell me about the 3ad thing.

 

4. You have yet to refute any of my points in this thread.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

1. The NIV is like, the most commonly used Bible.

2. Cause thats not our puprose. We have to save others, or try to. It'd be selfish just to commit suicide or whatever just to die faster when there are still lost souls out there.

3. where'd you get this that he was born in 3 ad? I'm curious cause I havent heard this b4.

4. But your point is based on opinion. You say I am stoopid, but what do you base that on? And my points in this thread have yet to be proven wrong. I've just been compared to a monkey, and called stoopid.

 

1. And since it's most common, it's obviously right. Just as back in the day owning slaves was the most common thing for white men to do.

 

2. We're not saying kill yourself. We're saying that if you REALLY want to live up to Jesus' example, you would love your enemy, not kill him, and if he chose to kill you so be it, you're going to heaven and he's going to hell apparently.

 

3. I dont know either, but could you please spell out the word before?

 

4. And YOUR points are based on opinion. How do you know God told Bush to go to war in Iraq? Because he said so? Well God told ME to punch Bush in the eye socket, so am I right in doing that? We CAN'T prove your points wrong to you, because you refuse to ever accept that you may be wrong about anything.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by yaebginn 1. You said 'and yours is right and everyone elses is wrong' I simply said that most everyone else uses the NIV Bible, so that'd mean most everyone's says murder and not kill.

 

Huh? My logic still works; just because the NIV bible is the most popular version of the bible, does not make it neccessarily right.

 

2. The purpose of life differs for everyone.

 

But you just said, it's a duty of everyone to convert everyone to Christianity...

 

Edit- Naturally, I despise ET, because his second point is excactly what I meant.

 

3. You still didnt tell me about the 3ad thing.

 

I edited my post in which I stated it, it turns out it's 3B.C., not 3.A.D.

 

4. You have yet to refute any of my points in this thread.

 

Alrighty then, then you haven't refuted any of my points in this thread either.

[tFighterPilot]

Originally posted by yaebginn

4. You have yet to refute any of my points in this thread.

Well, you refuse to accept the fact that the Iraqi people that gets killed defending their country had nothing to do with 9/11, and had no choice but to defend their home when the USA attacked for what turned out to be no reason whatsoever. If they just wanted Saddam, I'm sure the CIA was able to arange a silent kidnap. If the Israeli Mosad can find a nazi war criminal in Argentina, I'm sure that a famous organization such as the CIA can find Saddam in Iraq...

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by ZDawg

I call bull. First off, as the old saying goes "With great power, comes great responsibility" America OWED it to the people of Iraq to take them out of the things saddam did to them...

 

I think few people will attempt to justify the dasterdly deeds of the Iraqi government. But context is important when making that assumption (that "America OWED it..."). There are many more "evil" tyrants in the world -some that don't get media coverage in the United States. Many of these are on continents like Africa. Others are in S.E. Asian lands. Where do we draw the line? Do we not also, therefore, "owe it" to these people? Are they less deserving of our salvation?

 

The second thing is timing. We would have better used our resources and political and social capital in the world by pursuing the war on terror rather than engaging a contained despot.

 

Third, American intervention with the intent to create a democratic government has had far more failures than successes, making the endeavor an extremely risky one with all odds against it.

 

Originally posted by ZDawg

Legal or not, murder is murder, defending your country, is not murder.

 

Agreed. And having been one who has killed for his country, I'm inclined to believe that doing so at the order of one's government is also not murder. From my perspective, what the 10 commandments really say about taking the life of others is irrelevant: it's all mythology.

 

A comment like "I googled this or that" is completely irrelevant to the point I CLEARLY made.

 

Originally posted by ZDawg

The translations of Greek, Hebrew and Arabic text is not up to google or other website.

 

But the social understanding of religious doctrine is important. Truth is relevant to what people believe, religion has proved nothing if not that.

 

Originally posted by ZDawg

How about the clock in the right corner of your computer screen? the one based (A.D.) off the death of christ?

 

Actually, that, too, is culturally relevant. There are many, many cultures around the world that do not view the Latin phrase "Anno Domini," which means "in the year of our Lord," to refer to the current era. That the technological world is dominated by judeo-chrisitian cultures is the reason for the survival of this idiom. Many scholars, myself included, use BCE and CE: "before the current era" and the "current era" respectively.

[ckcsaber]

Originally posted by Tyrion

And we all know, of course, that your version of the bible is right and everyone else's is wrong.

 

Oh, if we're going by the though of most commonly used means it's true, then Islam is surely the right religion because it's the most commonly practiced one...

 

 

Huh? My logic still works; just because the NIV bible is the most popular version of the bible, does not make it neccessarily right.

 

Originally posted by ET Warrior

1. And since it's most common, it's obviously right. Just as back in the day owning slaves was the most common thing for white men to do.

 

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused about the bible debate. The NIV is basically the most widely used bible, the one most people refer to when quoting the bible. I'm not sure why this has become an issue, since the whole basis of his debate is based on Christian doctrine.

 

Arguing on whether or not living by the bible is right or wrong has nothing to do with the current discussion. Make another thread.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by ckcsaber

Arguing on whether or not living by the bible is right or wrong has nothing to do with the current discussion. Make another thread.

 

That's not the argument we're making atall, (at least, that's not the argument I am making. My point is that just because the NIV is the most commonly used translation hardly makes it the only one, and who is to say it's right simply because it's the majority? Like I said, Slavery was the majority back in the day, but we don't say IT was the right way to do things.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by ET Warrior

That's not the argument we're making atall, (at least, that's not the argument I am making. My point is that just because the NIV is the most commonly used translation hardly makes it the only one, and who is to say it's right simply because it's the majority? Like I said, Slavery was the majority back in the day, but we don't say IT was the right way to do things.

 

And that's the same argument I'm making.

[ckcsaber]

You act as if there is a huge difference between the different chrisitan translations of the bible. Most of the time the wording is slightly different, but with the same meaning.

 

Like I said, if you want to argue on whether or not "it's right simply because it's the majority", then make another thread. It's a different issue.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by yaebginn

5. And he already is in the army. There is a war going on already. A war for our souls. hes fighting satan, read the bible, dude.

 

I fail to see how superstition and mythology should have credibility in the right to commit heinous acts on others.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

5. And he already is in the army. There is a war going on already. A war for our souls. hes fighting satan, read the bible, dude.

 

I hate going off topic like this, but it's not like Jesus is DOING anything in this "war for our souls" I mean, you have said yourself it's all a personal choice. If we're good christians we go to heaven, if not we go to hell, he's not really battling Satan, they're just tossing insults around waiting for the people to decide for themselves where they'll go.

 

And I have read the bible, at least some of it. I did go to Sunday School all the way through 8th grade

 

Like I said, if you want to argue on whether or not "it's right simply because it's the majority", then make another thread. It's a different issue.

Not atall, this is a debate about the authenticy of the Commandment that thou shall not kill/murder, therefore it is entirely relevant which translation is to be believed.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by yaebginn

Ray, how exactly do I teahc hatred? for wanting to defend my famliy? for wanting to eliminate terrorism so that innocents can be safe?

you do represent so many stupid stereotypes and fallacies as there is possible for one single human being .. you want to defend your family? want to protect your family? dont want your family get killed by others? then the first thing you shouldnt do is kill other families or members of it, regardless if this is considered murder, killing or riding the pink bunny. also, just dont tell everybody "killing the enemy is right", since that is "teaching it" because others, especially kids, may take it as example and will do it after you. that is teaching hatred.

 

ET- Thats not an awesome point. Its just a fools hope. If a perfect world, yes, there would be no war. For years upon years, people have thought of what if we all co-existed peacefully. But the problem is greed. There's always one bad apple, and that would ruin the whole thing. Its a good theory, but its just too much to happen realistically.

fool, eyh? the problem is not greed. greed is just a result of the real problem. the real problem is what we are tought and what we are teaching. and i dont speak about standing in front of a class. and i dont meant"talking about it", talking about good deeds and love the sinner, hate the sin and whatnot.

i mean what we do every day. behavior against other people, especially younger ones. with every little thing we do and show to others we teach something.

and "we" teach bigger, brighter, faster, killinger and deeper. we say love each other while carrying a gun. we say size doesnt matter while wanting a big house. we say be helpful while using our elbows.

and that is why there is greed and violence and war. because we dont DO what we SAY. and how is the following generation supposed to do otherwise if it is teached exactly that because they doesnt see/learn something else??

 

there has to be a first step and that would be not to use violence.