Raise your hand if you hate spy-ware and popups!

[lukeiamyourdad]

You can't ban spyware. This isn't a local problem. If they ban it in the US a server in China could still contain spyware. Makes no difference. The net is without frontiers.

[Loopster]

Who is that in your avatar lukeiamyourdad?

[toms]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

Kind of like the law in consideration to make DVD/CD burners, Tape Recorders, and such illegal?

 

Not really, more like the can-spam law.

(which ok, was a load of rubbish, and actually had the effect of legalising some forms of spam... so i don't have high hopes. I thought i'd mention it though. the problem is the legislators don't understand the subjects...)

 

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

It's pretty easy to define. Anything that monitors what you do or adds unwanted programs to your computer that do unwanted things. It's only complicated, because someone is making it so.

Many helpful programs monitor what you do (such as antivirus, firewalls, search bars etc..) and many programs add additional programs that help them to do their job. Some of those might be "unwanted" if you don't need the particular feature they provide, but that wouldn't make them spyware.

Even defining "unwanted" is very hard in legal terms, as if it provides a service transparently in the background then how do i know if it is wanted or not?

 

EG: ATI media centre - when you install this it is actually about 8 programmes, plus about 20 other background programmes and drivers (schedulers, audio/video devices, codecs, updaters) most of which the average user wouldn't know were running at startup or in the background. Most the average user wouldn't even know what they do. Would that be unwanted? Some stuff they do want wouldn't work without it. But some of it provides features i never use. I suppose it could ask you about installing every bit, but that would make installation long and confusing for most users, and lead to a lot of installations that don't work.

 

I'm not saying it isn't do-able, just that it isn't easy.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Loopster

Who is that in your avatar lukeiamyourdad?

 

PMs do exist.

[Loopster]

I don't suppose you could just tell me?

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by toms

Everything you typed here.

Your reasoning sounds more like excuses then reasons. If you want to continue to philosophize on why it is hard (to make spyware and malicious programs illegal) then that is fine with me, but leaves little to discus. Leaves you sounding like the spokesperson for the Spyware guys.

 

This is what I got from your post.

"If you don't know it's there and don't know what it does how do you know you don't want it?"

 

"Most people are too dumb to understand what most of the programs they install or download unknowingly do. So why tell them and have them know they are doing it?"

 

"Anti Virus software is the same as Virus software, because they both monitor what you do. So they are the same and very hard to distinguish between."

 

That is basically what your statements conveyed to me.

 

This is new on CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/08/tech.spyware.reut/index.html

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/10/07/internet.spyware.ap/index.html

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by toms

Many helpful programs monitor what you do (such as antivirus, firewalls, search bars etc..) and many programs add additional programs that help them to do their job. Some of those might be "unwanted" if you don't need the particular feature they provide, but that wouldn't make them spyware.

Even defining "unwanted" is very hard in legal terms, as if it provides a service transparently in the background then how do i know if it is wanted or not?[/Quote]

 

an anti virus software should not monitor what I DO it should only monitor the files which are opened, written whatever.

a firewall should monitor accesses from and to my pc/network.

 

i also cannot see any reason why any software i start should automatically try to connect to the internet (yup, i control my firewall not vice versa ;D), except I want it so.

it's surely not spyware but it's where it begins. a program should do (automatically or not) what i say, not what i don't say or don't deny, because that doesnt means "yes, do it" it's UNWANTED because i don't want something to 'control' my pc.

 

a function i dont use? ok. a scheduler service? no problem with that. but why is it active although i never "scheduled" anything??

 

EG: ATI media centre - when you install this it is actually about 8 programmes, plus about 20 other background programmes and drivers (schedulers, audio/video devices, codecs, updaters) most of which the average user wouldn't know were running at startup or in the background. Most the average user wouldn't even know what they do. Would that be unwanted?

the "average user" wants a 'painting software' and 'not something that runs in the background', gets a media centre and something that runs in the background. there are two typical average users: the one who always clicks "ok" and the one who clicks "cancel". the average user is the reason for "my files"-folders and the "if you want to uninstall software, use the software item in the control panel"-messages.

 

Some stuff they do want wouldn't work without it. But some of it provides features i never use. I suppose it could ask you about installing every bit, but that would make installation long and confusing for most users, and lead to a lot of installations that don't work.

on the other hand you have 20 programs started during startup, and instead of ONE 'longer' process of installing you now have every boot slow as a snail.

also, again, it very depends to how the setup is programmed or designed.

and it's "use your system" not "be used by it". if you dont take the time to deal with a "customized" setup, you have to deal with the standard one for the "average user".

[toms]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

Leaves you sounding like the spokesperson for the Spyware guys.

 

What ? How? WHy? do you understant the words that are coming out of my mouth?

 

What i am saying is that you need somthing more than "its illegal to have software that does bad things" as a law. And that is seems to me to be very hard to define what "bad things" would be.

 

I guess you could define it as "something that is installed without asking", but most spyware DOES ask or inform, it just does in hidden deep in a legal jargon filled EULA somewhere where most people don't notice it.

 

Any law would NEED to help those who know NOTHING about computers, as anyone techie enough to know ABOUT spyware doesn't need to be protected anywhere near as much as those who know about it.

 

Almost every program i have tried to access the internet to check for updates, it sure makes things easier, but needs a way to be turned off if needed, but it doesn't mean they are "bad programs".

 

You would think spam would have been easy to define and legislate against, but the can-spam act doesn't seem to have helped much, and has made matters worse in some cases... i wouldn expect much better from this law if it happens.

 

I don't see why you think i am defending spyware, i'm just saying it isn't as easy to define and legislate against as you'd think. I bet most of those that I would define as spyware would deny it completely. How would i prove that I was right and they were wrong?

[jon_hill987]

Yes I hate spyware, Gator and Gain are two of the worst and they seem to go together. Its when they start putting desktop icons to pay per min porn that you have to wory. I used to have a big problem but with zone alarm, AVG and firefox as my browser I don't seem to have any problems. yet.

 

Spyware should be treated as seriously as viruses as there is a fine line between some of them, these as*****s people should be caught and strung up by their B you know whats.

[Nairb Notneb]

I agree with Lukeiamyourdad.

 

Spy ware is here to stay unless you can create software to fight or manage it when it comes in. The problem is inherent in the cookies and the way they work and the basic way the web works in its international, instant and ever-changing format.

[ronbrothers]

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[kipperthefrog]

So what do we DO about it?

 

Do we protest? Is there anything else we can do?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Nope. Except for Ad-aware, SpyBot S&D an other anti-spyware programs there's not much you can do. Laws won't change anything unless there is one in every country in the world. It also needs to be enforced seriously.

[TK-8252]

I recently had to reformat because of spyware that wouldn't die.

 

We really need some kind of internet police who find spyware and shut down the host, or whatever...

 

Seriously, what is the satisfaction of installing useless crap on people's computers, and slowing it down with other garbage?

[Druid Bremen]

Originally posted by TK-8252

Seriously, what is the satisfaction of installing useless crap on people's computers, and slowing it down with other garbage?

 

Not the satisfaction you speak of. Their purpose is not to slow your computer down to a crawl; it is to steal information about you, your surfing habits, your account information, and make use of them to fill their pockets.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Druid Bremen

Not the satisfaction you speak of. Their purpose is not to slow your computer down to a crawl; it is to steal information about you, your surfing habits, your account information, and make use of them to fill their pockets.

 

But what comes from the self-installing toolbars and stuff? How does that benefit the spies?

[Nairb Notneb]

Originally posted by TK-8252

I recently had to reformat because of spyware that wouldn't die.

 

We really need some kind of internet police who find spyware and shut down the host, or whatever...

 

Seriously, what is the satisfaction of installing useless crap on people's computers, and slowing it down with other garbage?

Internet police are a very bad idea. They rank up there with the "thought police" in my book. Yes, spy ware is a problem, but it I don't seem to have a big problem with it. People don't believe me when I tell them that, so I simply tell them that they are doing something wrong. I will share you my secrets. Here goes.

 

I have two e-mail addresses, one I pass out to people that I know and actually like and don't mind it if they send e-mails to me. I ask them not to pass it out. When I send out e-mails I always blind cc e-mails as a curtesy. I expect the same. I delete e-mails that have a fw: in the subject line, I ignore chain letters (especially the ones that promise money if you send it right away or the ones that say "this really works"). My second e-mail address is a garbage address like a hot mail account. I check it regularly and use it to sign up for things on the net. It gets all of my garbage mail and mass mail. In fact I check it daily. It has a great filter on it and I can get to it anywhere on the net.

 

I also use an antivirus software and I use Adaware regularly. I have a firewall set up too. If you say that you do all of this then you must be doing something wrong. Also, if you set one of those "fun" icon bars on your e-mail/browser, they are used as spyware. Get rid of them. News groups, news letters, etc., will pass your e-mail out. Signing up your e-mail for free stuff contests is a bad idea too.

 

If you have DSL or a cable hook up where your Internet connection is on all of the time, make sure you have a good firewall set up.

[lukeiamyourdad]

It's not much of a secret. I myself only use a single address but I'm careful about it. I almost never have spam. That and I kinda yelled at some friends calling them stupid because they sent me chain letters.

 

I could have been nice but I was pissed at their lack of logic.

 

Do all what Nairb said and for god's sake, STOP USING IE.

[Nairb Notneb]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

Do all what Nairb said and for god's sake, STOP USING IE.

Yes, stop using IE, I forgot that one too, thanks Lukeiamyourdad. I use Netscape, its better anyway, IMO.

[ronbrothers]

Something has to be done. It's got to stop somewhere. I do not want to see any kind of internet police. I like the unrestricted access to (available) information. But the popups, the spyware, spam. I just don't know what the solution would be given the world wide reach of the world wide web.

[Nairb Notneb]

I agree, that there is no simple solution to the problem. Nobody wants an internet police to be created. The problem is that with Spam, popups and spy ware is that these things make money for people. Therefore the real way to stop them is stop their ability to make money. Once these entities no longer make money they are no longer valid. That is how you stop it. Now, the question is, how do you do that? One way is to make them illegal and charge ridiculously high fines, but that is next to impossible to do because of freedom of speech issues and the fact that it is nearly impossible to find out how is doing it. Plus it is very costly to police this. If this could be done then there would be no drug problem.

[ronbrothers]

That would work if the offender were here in the United States. But how would you hold a company accountable to those fines if the server was located say in Russia or some third world type country?

[Nairb Notneb]

You can't its impossible to hold an entity responsible for crimes outside of your jurisdiction. Thus the problem. This is also why fines will not solve the issue.

[SkinWalker]

I believe it needs to be treated like a social issue. People need to be educated on the hows and whys of Spam/Pop-ups/Spyware, etc. Then they need to be offered methods of protection.

 

Spam & Spyware are like STDs... by practicing safe hex, you can avoid them

 

I do, however, think this educational process is happening... otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it here.

[Nairb Notneb]

You are probably right. The ignorance of people is what makes these things work the best. They find the people that are unaware and then exploit them. It is the nature of this ugly beast.