El Sitherino Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I have started this thread because many ask me why I don't believe in god. While I don't devote myself to the unwavering belief of a deity's existence, I acknowledge the possibility. Many people ask, well why can't you make up your mind? are you confused? No, I just live my life by a bit of scientific standard. Since we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a deity, I cannot throw the idea completely out. I was recently asked in another thread if I don't believe in god, then why are we here? Well, that I do not know, and I'm not sure anyone knows. If one buys into the faith of god and his existence. Are we merely his constructs from boredom? Or perhaps just his afternoon play toys. Perhaps he is a scientist in another plane of reality, and we're an experiment in life and it's creation. Those that have seperated from devotion of this faith, or those that outright deny it as possiblity. Maybe we just happend. Evolution maybe? I'm not sure anyone can answer this. Everyone is different do to their beliefs, their own views and interpretations of reality and the world. We can see lots of people interpret the bible differently. I often question, if the bible is supposed to be the word of god, how could he allow it to be tainted, and corrupted? Shouldn't he be able to use some kind of power to make the message absolutely clear, so there is only one way to read it? I personally like to avoid conflict so if there are any questions or statements anyone would like to make, to better get this point across, please state them. I am always open to hearing other peoples reasons for their beliefs, infact I find them very interesting. and I leave you with a little message from me. To all religious people, get over your petty differences in mythology, wake up to the real world, if there is a god I doubt he wants people spending all their life killing eachother in his name. This isn't who daddy loves more, this is be nice or go to your ****ing room. Quit your stupid ignorance of others beliefs and be nice to eachother. I say this only because too many times have I seen people of different faiths arguing about who is right, who is wrong. This is not telling you to no longer follow your faith, but rather to not argue it. Do not approach someone of a different faith and tell them your faith is right, you may believe that, but not everyone is the same, that's what makes us so magnificent, that's what according to religions, makes us the marvel of gods creations. Too long have I heard of holy wars being declared, too long have I seen people act in violence in gods name. If god truely is a father to us all, he wants us all to be happy, not kill eachother. your friend, the agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie™ Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I pretty much agree on your views, with only one signifigant difference... I do not consider a "god" an option at all.. My philosophy is that you're welcome to believe what you believe, as long as you don't try to affect others with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Indeed. I see too much emphasis on what people believe. "do you believe in god?" "if so, christian, muslim, or the multiple gods of the hindu religion?" does it really matter that much what they believe? can you not love them for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I applaud. And I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothiX Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 We have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckcsaber Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Life of Pi - Yann Martel I’ll be honest about it. It is not atheists who get struck in my craw, but agnostics. Doubt is useful for a while. We must all pass through the garden of Gethsemane. If Christ played with doubt, so must we. If Christ spent an anguished night in prayer, if He burst out from the cross, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” then surely we are also permitted doubt. But we must move on. To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation. This is my general take on agnosticism. To all religious people, get over your petty differences in mythology, wake up to the real world, if there is a god I doubt he wants people spending all their life killing eachother in his name. This isn't who daddy loves more, this is be nice or go to your ****ing room. Quit your stupid ignorance of others beliefs and be nice to eachother. Regarding this quote, I think you are generalizing the word religion. I am a Christian. I follow the word of Christ. I am NOT religious. Religions are hijacked by others all the time. I only concern my faith with myself. I mean, I still tell others about my beliefs when the time is appropriate, and try to get other's become aware of Christ. I don't go knocking on people's doors trying to convert as many people as I can, but I do try and do little things here and there. Other people's beliefs don't anger me, and certainly don't make me want to go out and start a holy war. All I do is follow Christ's example the best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Originally posted by ckcsaber Other people's beliefs don't anger me, and certainly don't make me want to go out and start a holy war. All I do is follow Christ's example the best I can. and I applaud you for such. agnosticism isn't about doubt, agnosticism is about knowing there is uncertainty, but trying to find certainty. Trying to see both sides of the issue if you will. We are the middle man that tries to find compensation in beliefs. That said I respect your beliefs and applaud you for how you live your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Agreed with Insanesith, agniosticism isn't about doubt or being uncertain. Agnosticism is separate from theism and atheism, because both theists and atheists "believe" in something - theists believe that there exists a god or another spiritual force, atheists believe that no such things can exist. Agonsticism is the knowledge that neither theism nor atheism can be proven, and it's thus pointless to believe in anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I whole-heartedly agree with you, InsaneSith. Originally Posted by Breton Agonsticism is the knowledge that neither theism nor atheism can be proven, and it's thus pointless to believe in anything. That's exactly what I feel agnosticism is, and that's what I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 this is kinda scary, a lot of people agreeing with me. I feel my ego has gone up 2 points, now I can purchase my boots of escaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I'm quite unsure about my faith in God as of now... And I don't fall into agnostic or atheist and whatnot... damn my non-conformity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Well, you could say I'm agnostic, but more inclined towards atheism. All my life I have seen the proof of Science and Technology, and the marvels they can achieve, yet little miracles said to be caused by gods. Many accuse me of my little faith in their gods. Here's usually how it goes: "You have no faith at all whatsoever in the existence of Jesus/(put_your_god_here), he's going to condemn you to hell." "Where is your proof that he exists?" "The Bible/(put_your_holy_book_here). It was written/dictated to man, a book of rules to follow." "How do you know the book wasn't actually written by man, to achieve his own insidious means?" This usually shuts them up. Once again, I say that I'm an agnostic, inclined towards atheism, because none of the people who question me provided me with a complete answer. In an argument, what I quest for is logic, and IMO an argument with flaws in its logic structure is generally invalid. If you have the answer, reply to this thread, and if it fits logic, I might change my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by Druid Bremen "You have no faith at all whatsoever in the existence of Jesus/(put_your_god_here), he's going to condemn you to hell." "Where is your proof that he exists?" Ummm...That's what faith is. Believing something and not needing proof. If someone says you have no faith, and you reply with "prove to me why I should", it's redundant. They were correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by CapNColostomy Ummm...That's what faith is. Believing something and not needing proof. If someone says you have no faith, and you reply with "prove to me why I should", it's redundant. They were correct. I doubt faith, precisely because it lacks proof. I follow logic, because it provides reason (the proof) to believe, rather than one without reason. Perhaps, their reason is individual miracles, or more often the Bible, or similar, but I reject it, because there is no proof it wasn't luck, or indeed caused by their god. Their reason comes from the fact that they need something to believe in, so I don't grudge that. But if they come and force their religion upon me, then, no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBuzzard Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 (I'm not trying to start anything stupid and don't want any flame wars, just bringing this home) I doubt faith, precisely because it lacks proof. I follow logic, because it provides reason (the proof) to believe, rather than one without reason. Perhaps, their reason is individual miracles, or more often the Bible, or similar, but I reject it, because there is no proof it wasn't luck, or indeed caused by their god. Their reason comes from the fact that they need something to believe in, so I don't grudge that. But if they come and force their religion upon me, then, no way. Then you *technically* don't believe in God. Faith is about believing what cannot be proven, then recieving your eternal reward. CapnColostomy said it already Also, if you believed in logic, you would know that scientists have nearly confirmed life after death. They are 'killing' people (nearly) so they 'die' and move on. They describe it as like falling through a portal (I think). People have talked with dead relatives and some say to have seen others long dead in their eternal reward. When the scientists brought them back to 'life', the dead relatives would say, 'it's time for you to return' and then they could tell everyone what happened. Almost creepy, and although un-christian, it shows that Christian beliefs are not some hocus-pocus practiced by crazed individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by DarthBuzzard (I'm not trying to start anything stupid and don't want any flame wars, just bringing this home) Then you *technically* don't believe in God. Faith is about believing what cannot be proven, then recieving your eternal reward. CapnColostomy said it already Also, if you believed in logic, you would know that scientists have nearly confirmed life after death. They are 'killing' people (nearly) so they 'die' and move on. They describe it as like falling through a portal (I think). People have talked with dead relatives and some say to have seen others long dead in their eternal reward. When the scientists brought them back to 'life', the dead relatives would say, 'it's time for you to return' and then they could tell everyone what happened. Almost creepy, and although un-christian, it shows that Christian beliefs are not some hocus-pocus practiced by crazed individuals. I have to agree with your first paragraph. It is correct. It is only at the second paragraph that I began to go crazy. Your statement begs the following questions: 1. Where did this information come from? 2. Is it from a reliable source? Name the source. Assuming that the answer to previous queston is yes: (a) Who are the scientists who performed the test? (b)What are the methods used to 'kill' the people? (i)Wasn't there be an public uproar over ethics if these methods, even if painless, really brought people very near death, if so many opposed cloning and the like? ©How many people were tested? (d)What can you do to prove the truth of the statements of these people? If you can answer the questions, especially the last one satisfactorily, then I might incline towards theism more than I do so now. I feel much doubt about your statements. Oh and, I never said Christianism was "some hocus-pocus practiced by crazed individuals." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBuzzard Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 1. Over one hundred patients who were tested; all had similar stories. 2. NBC and a National magazine (Readers Digest) - I would call National news pretty reliable, wouldn't you? a. A group of officials who have studied this their entire lives and who were able to get themselves into two national sources. I don't have either source in front of me, so I can't answer this spot on (I don't remember every NBC and the Readers Digest was at the barbers ) b. They were only technically killed, if you can even call it that. I dont know everything about science and how these things work, but they shut off most organs however the patient was hooked up to life support which kept their organs functioning at lowest level possible - even after you die, your organs still work, which is why some people who die in car crashes can still donate organs. Thats it in a nutshell, the exact science is a mystery. i. Those in the experiment did it voluntarily. Perhaps they viewed it as humane, as well as everyone else? No idea, only I know that this isn't exactly a widespread common issue...maybe most didn't know about it? Once again, neither source is in front of me. c. Over one hundred if my memory serves me right. d. All you have here are 100 + peoples stories; do you believe them, or do you believe God who promises you eternal life without the need for proof...or do you believe neither? It's up to you. Reliable, true? Up to you to take this into consideration. I can keep searching to find something else; no doubt this has been published somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by DarthBuzzard 1. Over one hundred patients who were tested; all had similar stories. 2. NBC and a National magazine (Readers Digest) - I would call National news pretty reliable, wouldn't you? a. A group of officials who have studied this their entire lives and who were able to get themselves into two national sources. I don't have either source in front of me, so I can't answer this spot on (I don't remember every NBC and the Readers Digest was at the barbers ) b. They were only technically killed, if you can even call it that. I dont know everything about science and how these things work, but they shut off most organs however the patient was hooked up to life support which kept their organs functioning at lowest level possible - even after you die, your organs still work, which is why some people who die in car crashes can still donate organs. Thats it in a nutshell, the exact science is a mystery. i. Those in the experiment did it voluntarily. Perhaps they viewed it as humane, as well as everyone else? No idea, only I know that this isn't exactly a widespread common issue...maybe most didn't know about it? Once again, neither source is in front of me. c. Over one hundred if my memory serves me right. d. All you have here are 100 + peoples stories; do you believe them, or do you believe God who promises you eternal life without the need for proof...or do you believe neither? It's up to you. Reliable, true? Up to you to take this into consideration. I can keep searching to find something else; no doubt this has been published somewhere. Sounds pretty convincing, but know that media sources could contain bias. I'm torn in half over the issue. I don't know why, but I'm trying to convince myself it was hallucinations for all of them. One for you, Buzzard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBuzzard Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Bear in mind that this is from memory and even a good memory can screw things up... now, this isn't exactly what i was referring to, but it gives you some framework and ideas to work with... http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research10.html note that here they partially explain whats needed to pass beyond and see the afterlife. - also be sure to look at whether pets have souls too speculation, its a bit interesting. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers21.html - this woman had one triggered by an orgasm - WARNING: NOT FOR KIDS, EVEN THOUGH I AM 12! OH THE IRONY...you have been sufficently warned. keep exploring the links, all kinds of cool stuff - woman sees childs future etc ill edit more if i find them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by DarthBuzzard Bear in mind that this is from memory and even a good memory can screw things up... now, this isn't exactly what i was referring to, but it gives you some framework and ideas to work with... http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research10.html note that here they partially explain whats needed to pass beyond and see the afterlife. - also be sure to look at whether pets have souls too speculation, its a bit interesting. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers21.html - this woman had one triggered by an orgasm - WARNING: NOT FOR KIDS, EVEN THOUGH I AM 12! OH THE IRONY...you have been sufficently warned. keep exploring the links, all kinds of cool stuff - woman sees childs future etc ill edit more if i find them This is interesting, especially the one about atheism not being a one-way ticket to hell.. Nice one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by DarthBuzzard Then you *technically* don't believe in God. Faith is about believing what cannot be proven, then recieving your eternal reward. You see, that is where I have the problem. It is all very well saying "the reason it is called faith is that it can't be proved". That is all well and good. But there has to be SOME reason to believe!! Otherwise you are being rewarded for: (a) not questioning what you are told, and/or (b) being born and brought up in the right culture, and/or © taking a completely blind gamble. It is a bit like saying "pick a number from 1 to 10... and if you get the right one you will have a reward". Sure, it works i guess... but if you are right then it is entirely by luck. Unless you believe that there was a divine hand that guided you into the religion you are in... but then in that case you can hardly blame those who weren't guided for not believing the same as you. Obviously god can't just come out and say "here i am, do you believe in me?" but equally I would argue a blind believe based on NOTHING is just as invalid. Anf furthermore, if god is actually up there, i'm not at all clear why he would be so obsessed with us worshiping him and whether we blindly believe in him or not? It would make him pretty human and insecure if he was worried about that. Why wouldn't he be happier for us just to live our lives as we see fit? ----------- Personally, agnostic probably fits me best. But it isn't that i purposefully "believe in nothing". It is that i analyse any beliefs i might get to see if they are logical, and if some evidence turns up to counteract my belief i am not averse to admitting i was wrong. I believe that a lot of what was taught in the bible was "right" and "good", but subsequent interference and corruption by generations of humans has made it impossible to tell if it is the "truth" or not. So up until god makes his presence felt to me I will keep an open mind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBuzzard Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by toms ...Otherwise you are being rewarded for: (a) not questioning what you are told, and/or (b) being born and brought up in the right culture, and/or © taking a completely blind gamble. It is a bit like saying "pick a number from 1 to 10... and if you get the right one you will have a reward". Removed Over-Quoted Material Very good point. However, the point IS that you need to take that gamble to recieve your reward, you have to have enough faith that you chose right and that you dont need to know you did. Whether or not you take the gamble is up to you .Edit: Please keep quotes shorter than your own post, particularly if its the post above your own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Writer Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Anybody ever heard of Josh McDowell? He didn't grow up believing in any religion (or relationship). In fact, it wasn't until college that he became a Christian. This occurred only after he spent a lot of time researching the beliefs. His goal was to disprove Christianity and he ended up believing it! Faith without facts? I don't think so. I've been a Christian since I was 5 years old and believed everything I was taught without any doubts. Now, I can't do that any more. I still believe, but I want to know why the faith I chose in my young years is one I can truly believe without a doubt that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 wow, some great insights here. Personally, I've found the rituals of my religion (I was raised as a Roman Catholic) to be kind of useless. But I still find that faith in good, both in myself and in the universe at large, still has a big place in my life. I just don't like it when people try to fit that good inside a rigid set of rules and myths. Let everyone decide for themselves, what's right and what to believe in, and it all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Before I try to address anything InsaneSith said, I realize a lot of people consider me bias and closed minded, when in fact that isn’t the case... if you met me on a street, I would probably be one of the most open minded understanding Christians you will meet. With that being said, this is simply what I have come to believe, I am NOT a person who bases my life of myth and chance, I need evidence for something before I believe it, my beliefs are based off of fact that I have encountered over the coarse of my life and by PERSON experience. Originally posted by InsaneSith Well, that I do not know, and I'm not sure anyone knows. If one buys into the faith of god and his existence. Are we merely his constructs from boredom? Or perhaps just his afternoon play toys. Perhaps he is a scientist in another plane of reality, and we're an experiment in life and it's creation. If we were in fact an experiment of life, than life would not be what we think it is... in order for life to be made, it must first be given, unless their IS a almighty God, God being God because he IS the final for everything, the begging of time, the end of time, the beginning of life, and the end of it, that is what would make him God. Those that have seperated from devotion of this faith, or those that outright deny it as possiblity. Maybe we just happend. Evolution maybe? Yes, maybe evolution, maybe we came from nothing, maybe we were a cosmic accident that happened out of nothing, but in order of that to happen, time would have to exist, and space, which is caused by a lack of something, the chances of that happening, and the faith required to believe that something did in fact form from nothing, nearly the same if not more to believe that we are all a creation of a God with a master plan, a God who CREATED time, CREATED life... Yea, I cannot explain how God always was, without saying that he exists outside of time, but I also cant explain how something (I.E a cell or a protein) can come from nothing. Bottom line on that is, BOTH require faith, even if you claim to have none. I often question, if the bible is supposed to be the word of god, how could he allow it to be tainted, and corrupted? Shouldn't he be able to use some kind of power to make the message absolutely clear, so there is only one way to read it?Yes, God can infact make an unchangeable word that can never be altered, he can also make us believe in him, IF he wanted to remove your freedom of choice, your freewill. Yes, God allows things to happen, because he gave us freewill, we do what we may with the freedom given to us. I say this only because too many times have I seen people of different faiths arguing about who is right, who is wrong. This is not telling you to no longer follow your faith, but rather to not argue it. Do not approach someone of a different faith and tell them your faith is right, you may believe that, but not everyone is the same, that's what makes us so magnificent, that's what according to religions, makes us the marvel of gods creations. Too long have I heard of holy wars being declared, too long have I seen people act in violence in gods name. If god truely is a father to us all, he wants us all to be happy, not kill eachother. I whole heartedly agree that people should not press their beliefs on people, because everyone should be given freewill, everyone should be able to make a choice for themselves, and to push your belief on someone simply because you think your right, is, even in a Christian standpoint, removing peoples freewill that was given to them by GOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.