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I'll get into the EU and kill Jaina myself...


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not just the NJO but Jaina (and Jacen to be fair) annoys the hell out of me, she seems to be a popular character with others but i can't see why, she (and Jacen) is arrogant as hell and as i can't stand brats the only scenes i can stand with her in is where bad stuff is happening to her (i knew there was another reason i liked Kyp) so far the end of Star By Star and most of Dark Journey have been the only times she's been tolerable because it was quite entertaining seeing her nearly go to the dark side but apparently shes got over that and is getting back to her old self now. Anakin also annoyed me to an extent but he became quite a decent character in the NJO and his death, although a great scene doesnt really make a great deal of sense to me because his character seemed to have a bigger destiny ahead of him.

 

as you can guess while i was away at christmas i had a lot of time on my hands to read some pre-NJO EU, my job allowed me to spend most of my time sitting down reading.

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another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

 

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.

 

all the NJO did was basically introduced some star trek type baddies and then proceeded to destroy these decent characters by either killing them off or making them so unlikeable that you wanted them to kill them off.

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i didnt say a word against the NJO, Jaina was never interesting for me except her near dark side turn which strangely enough was in the NJO. but throughout her presence in the EU she is always annoying. and as i said, same for Jacen and to a lesser extent Anakin

 

the Vong i originally thought of as Star Trek type aliens but theyre not really, i like trek and i cant think of a race they compare to. Species 8472 are the only race in trek with biotech and the two races are very different.

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Originally posted by Sivy

another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

 

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.

 

all the NJO did was basically introduced some star trek type baddies and then proceeded to destroy these decent characters by either killing them off or making them so unlikeable that you wanted them to kill them off.

 

pfft to you ! I get to use this again :p

EU whiner.jpg

 

 

bravo to Leper though, for not letting that cheeky bugger Siv do his old Yuuzhan Vong=species 8472 routine. If you said Vong are like Klingons or like the Predator, you are much closer to the mark, but 8472... :( As a Voyager fan, I will ensure you dont get to come on our next away mission to the Planet of Naked Green Women that Kirk Kissed :p

 

mtfbwya

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would the inhabitants of that planet be the same ones that a good slice of the population entered a tanning booth came out blue and emigrated en masse to the star wars universe calling themselves the Twi'leks in the process? :D

 

i cant see Klingon/Vong similarity myself since the Vong dedicate themselves in part to trickery and subterfuge, something the Klingons find distasteful. If i had to give a Vong/trek similarity id say they were like an amalgamation of the Klingons and Romulans but those races are so different you couldnt really say the Vong equate to one or the other. So therefore Vong = unique, Star Wars race

 

anyway to get back on topic, Jaina is particularly irritating in the book im reading at the moment (Rebel Dream) she just wallows and wallows and wallows and keeps thinking better not talk to anyone in case they miss me when im dead. I find it highly unlikely that she will die so i wish shed stop going on about it.

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Originally posted by Sivy

another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

 

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.

That is definitely one thing I was disappointed about with the NJO. I had come to think of the Jedi Knights of the Old Republic as noble and completely dedicated to the Jedi cause. Characters like Qui-Gon, Kenobi, and so one explified their ideals. I had a hard time accepting characters like Jaina and Ganner who were arrogant and whiny. A certain portion of the new Jedi just seemed like punks. Even Skywalker turned into a wishy-washy invalid, with a personality that contradicts how he is portrayed in the movies.
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The whole "Vong = Species 8472" thing isn't so far-fetched.

 

What other well-known alien race in Sci Fi before the Vong was "all biotech" ?

 

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.

 

It's clear where they stole the idea from, and Voyager mostly sucked, so... heh

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Originally posted by Kurgan

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.

 

The Vong may be but 8472 are not, 8472 got into a war with the Borg because the Borg tried attacking them and swifty realised theyd bitten off more than they could chew. 8472 also employed conventional technology to assemble an environment they could practice espionage in. Also, 8472 didnt wage war indiscriminately because it examined the Federation (humans basically for the non Trek inclined) and chose not to destroy it because they found it 1) had no plans against them and 2) were not really a threat to them.

 

By StarWarsPhreak

I rather like Jaina. *hugs Jaina avy/sig combo*

 

but why?

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Originally posted by Kain

EU = HURK!!!

 

:( Let me say it once and only once, Kain. Take a look above you. People who like and dislike things about the EU discussing and sharing points of view in a sane and civil manner.

 

There is simply no room here for crap like your comment above. Unless you want to contribute I suggest you take your shadowy form back to the swamp and tell someone off for not choosing the right vampire in RPG :D

 

mtfbwya

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Originally posted by Astrotoy7

:( Let me say it once and only once, Kain. Take a look above you. People who like and dislike things about the EU discussing and sharing points of view in a sane and civil manner.

 

There is simply no room here for crap like your comment above. Unless you want to contribute I suggest you take your shadowy form back to the swamp and tell someone off for not choosing the right vampire in RPG :D

 

mtfbwya

 

Oh I'm sorry. I thought posting opinions was allowed here in the forums. Silly me. Let me break it down in a 'more civil manner'.

 

NJO = HAHAHA!!! Worst concept ever. Snot nosed little brats learning control over the all powerful Force. Grand concept. A generation of Anakin Skywalkers.

 

Yuuzahn Vong - Hmm...lessee. A race of fanatically religious self-mutilating technology hating beings who 'grow' their weapons and interstellar vehicles. Well, it could be worse. Not sure how yet, but it could be worse.

 

Shadows of the Empire - The Adventures of Han Solo...um I mean Dash Rendar. I forgot their was a deference.

 

The Jedi Knight Series - S'alright.

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Originally posted by Leper Messiah

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

 

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.

 

 

 

The Vong may be but 8472 are not, 8472 got into a war with the Borg because the Borg tried attacking them and swifty realised theyd bitten off more than they could chew. 8472 also employed conventional technology to assemble an environment they could practice espionage in. Also, 8472 didnt wage war indiscriminately because it examined the Federation (humans basically for the non Trek inclined) and chose not to destroy it because they found it 1) had no plans against them and 2) were not really a threat to them.

 

Sorry, I momentary forgot about that 5th season VOY episode (last appearance of Species 8472 in canonical trek iirc) "In the Flesh" where that stuff is discussed.

 

IIRC though a simple cease fire was negotiated between Voyager and Species8472, "for now." Previously in the show 8472 telepathically communicated to Kes (in the "Scorpion" two-parter) that they did intend to try to conquer the Milky Way galaxy and "purge" it of "weak beings" as they had already done with their own galaxy (of "fluidic space"). Their beef thus wasn't just with the Borg, but everyone in the Trek galaxy that they deemed inferior. Note: if you want the relevant quotes from Scorpion 1 & 2 about Species 8472's intentions, just ask. I didn't want to clutter things up anymore than necessary!

 

And until Janeway's "negotiation" (in "In the Flesh") they hadn't really decided that the Federation or humanity was "no threat" or had no designs against them. The purpose of the simulation was to try to understand their enemy better, that was the whole point. I could watch the episode again to pick out quotes, but that was the impression I got the first time around.

 

Yes, the Borg did provoke them initially, but that doesn't change the character of the species at the time of their introduction.

 

Remeber that Voyager, completely out of character for past Federation behavior, actually AIDED their hated enemy, the Borg, AGAINST Species 8472. So while Species 8472 may have been a fascist species, they had every reason to assume the worst.

Like the Borg, they seem to have changed in the course of the show. And oddly enough, like the Vong, they are now shown doing spy work for their planned invasion. Now again I'm not saying the two are identical, but I think it's no stretch to see one inspiring the other. The NJO began in what, 2001? That was the final year of Voyager, incidentally. Now in the Star Wars EU, the plot of "super aliens from beyond known space threaten the galaxy" isn't exactly a new one, but c'mon, seriously...

 

Of all the villians in Star Wars, the Vong seem the most "different" from what we've seen previously. And of all the recurring villians in Star Trek, Species 8472 seem the most "alien." Is this the best that modern sci fi writers can come up with?

 

No offense to anyone who likes the NJO or Voyager of course. ; )

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well yes i forgot entirely about the whole "The weak will perish" thing with 8472, its a long time since i watched Voyager, but yes their attitude in "Scorpion" is a bit Vong-esque. However 8472 are not nearly as racist as the Vong, for one thing they were successfully negotiated with which is an enourmous difference, for another 8472 were much, much more powerful than the Vong (not to start any silly debates but The Borg Vs The Vong? The Borg would pwn them :D, actually that would be a good war, two utter opposites, imagine the Vong reaction to discovering assimilation, their priests would go absolutely incandescant :D) The Vong ships can be destroyed through conventional means, 8472 are nearly invincible bar those special torpedoes. It is also worth noting that 8472 were actually provoked into their war which is a substantial cultural difference, and they may well say they want to destroy all life in the galaxy but then again every ship they came into contact with attacked them, when they realise that this was not necessarily always be the case they stood down from that attitude and gave peace a chance. The Vong on the other hand attacked first, never really negotiated except to further their cause through lies and trickery and could never be persuaded to give peace a chance.

 

Also, despite these arguments i would also say that not enough is known about 8472 to really compare them to the Vong in depth as the Vong are a far more thoroughly explored culture

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OMG ! Kurgan and Leper are turning this into a Trek forum :(:p

 

Kain, thats better HAHAHHAA !!! A Ventrue !!!! AHAHAHAA!!!

 

 

*bangs head on all 19 NJO novels*

 

* * *

 

Seriously though, Kurgan, does it really matter that similarities can be drawn between The Yuuzhan Vong and other sci fi baddies. This is standard in *any* literature. The Vong not being able to use the force is an extremely major point, yet all ppl *who havent read the business end of the series* seem to like saying is

 

"OMG : Biotechnology = 8472'

"OMG :

CHEWIE

is dead : NJO SuXXorzz"

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the NJO. Its been a year now, and the things that stick out in my mind arent biotech, but the *CHARACTERS*

 

there are some wonderfully written characterisations in the NJO. I never was too fond of Jacen Solo...but after reading 'Traitor'...wow. Nom Anor was another great character, a literary standard 'complex villain', subversive and selfish to the last.

 

Absolutely epics events unfolding, not only in battles but for characters emotionally. The NJO took SW EU into uncharted territory by doing this, and it was a breath of fresh air.... I cant wait for the post NJO book :D

 

* * *

 

as for Jaina, Im hopin that Jag gets killed or somethin, coz he's hella boring :(

 

 

mtfbwya

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Originally posted by Astrotoy7

as for Jaina, Im hopin that Jag gets killed or somethin, coz he's hella boring :(

 

i was hoping he'd get bored and eye Tahiri up just cos it was cause trouble :D. But Jag does have "expendable character" written all over him. Im looking forward to reading Traitor and not looking forward to it in equal measure, because I do find Jacen quite irritating and Vegere is just.... wierd but just about everyone has come out in favor of that book so it must be worth reading. If nothing else I want to know where Jacens got to.

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Originally posted by Leper Messiah

However 8472 are not nearly as racist as the Vong, for one thing they were successfully negotiated with which is an enourmous difference, for another 8472 were much, much more powerful than the Vong (not to start any silly debates but The Borg Vs The Vong? The Borg would pwn them :D, actually that would be a good war, two utter opposites, imagine the Vong reaction to discovering assimilation, their priests would go absolutely incandescant :D)

 

Okay, just playing Devil's advocate here, but considering the Vong can stand up to Star Wars Tech, they must be immensely more powerful than Species 8472. Species 8472 could challenge the Borg, because the Borg are written as tactical idiots. Voyager can stand up to them because Species 8472 act like idiots.

 

Now from everything I know (as a layman anyway), "bio-tech" is a silly concept for sci fi, in terms of opposing good old fashioned technology. Bio weapons, a serious threat against advanced Starships? Heh, whatever.

 

Trek and Wars ships should be able to, quite literally, squash bioships like bugs. The engines of a bioship should rip it to pieces. Basically their "technology" works by magic. The whole "fluidic space" thing for Species 8472 was a kind of novel idea. Okay, so maybe somehow they are in this entirely different reality where stuff just works differently, okay fine. But they enter our space and their tech still works? Whatever.

 

The Vong shouldn't be a threat to SW tech either, since it uses biotech, which should be weak when it comes to space combat and galactic civilizations of that level. Unless you accept some kind of magic that makes it all work, then we just have to accept it, bad writing or not. But the kind of junk science that's supposed to allow the Vong to be all powerful is something I would expect to see in modern Trek more readily than Star Wars. To me it represents a new low in EU standards. Again, no offense to the lovers of the NJO series or Voyager.

 

ANYWAY, my point is that if the Vong can somehow match SW tech, then they are already more powerful than anything in Trek, including the Borg.

 

 

The Vong ships can be destroyed through conventional means, 8472 are nearly invincible bar those special torpedoes.

 

Species 8472 were also killed by the splash damage from explosions of some Borg cubes. That's pretty conventional for Trek. There's a limit to how powerful those explosions can be.

 

It is also worth noting that 8472 were actually provoked into their war which is a substantial cultural difference, and they may well say they want to destroy all life in the galaxy but then again every ship they came into contact with attacked them, when they realise that this was not necessarily always be the case they stood down from that attitude and gave peace a chance. The Vong on the other hand attacked first, never really negotiated except to further their cause through lies and trickery and could never be persuaded to give peace a chance.

 

But couldn't you argue that (again playing Devil's Advocate) that the Vong were dying, and they needed a new home, so they were desperate? But yeah, both species were "shoot first, ask questions later, don't trust these inferior races" type villians.

 

Also, despite these arguments i would also say that not enough is known about 8472 to really compare them to the Vong in depth as the Vong are a far more thoroughly explored culture

 

Granted, Species 8472 are known from precisely 3 canon episodes (with brief mentions in a couple of other episodes), and the Vong are explored in the what... 12 books of the NJO so far?

 

They aren't identical, but I see them using the same stupid gimmick as a villian race, and that's what bugs me. First the fact that it's a goofy idea, and second that it's so derivative. That's all, really.

 

 

As to the NJO, yes, all criticism can be deflected by its fans, hooray. Don't let me stop you from liking something you're going to like anyway. And it is possible to like something while pointing out its faults. In this case I just don't see anything really grabbing me to want to read the series. I've frankly given up on the EU, except for a few games.

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right then, on the first count

 

I have in my time come across some endless analysis of Star Trek and Star Wars tech pitted against each other, and some come down on the side of Star Wars and some come down on the side of Trek. The truth is theres no way to really compare them unless there were (and there, probably thankfully, isnt) a canon Star Trek Vs Star Wars type film. You cant look at it in scientific terms because its just a story and nobody has a clue how any of the tech would work in anything but the most basic terms. Factor in things like continuity errors and its all downright unreliable. Also such arguments annoy me because they too have continuity errors in them, a particular example springs to mind from a pro-Star Wars tech argument which dismissed a comment from Star Trek The Next Generation that Federation ships were capable of avoiding damage from Lasers and suchlike (obviously heavily employed in Star Wars among other sci fi) without even having to use their deflector sheilds by saying that Star Wars Laser tech was probably different to the Star Trek Laser tech, however later in the same argument the point was made that some Star Wars vessels were capable of tracking cloaked ships in response to the possible advantage Romulan and Klingon ships might have over Star Wars ships, leaving out the possibility that these technologies might also be different. So trying to compare the technology of the two universes is hideously inaccurate. The one and only indesputeable canon advantage one has over the other is hyperspace travel, everything else is pure speculation. And The Borg possess such travel (however they call it transwarp) although nobody can really say which is the faster. Species 8472 on the other hand go even better than that, they can appear wherever the hell they want to.

 

on the second count

 

Borg Cubes a pretty sizeable craft, i forget exactly how big im not sure if any canon measurement was ever given, but then again a Vong ship could be destroyed by splash damage from the explosion of a Star Destroyer so theres no advantage of one over the other there.

 

on the third count

 

"shoot first, ask questions later, don't trust these inferior races" is a very broad description and doesnt really fit either race, in 8472s case it was "Get shot at first, and kill everything in sight which looks like it might have had even slightly something to do with it, dont trust these inferior races....yet" because it was shown they could be talked to. In the Vong's case their attitude was "examine, invade, kill the infidels and their abominations"

 

now i grant you ive seen better villain races than either. at the time of their introduction, 8472 annoyed me immensely, because a lot of fans had been waiting for Voyager to run into The Borg (pretty simple connection for the fans, Voyager gets stranded in Delta Quadrant, its already been established in other Trek series that thats where the Borg hang their coat, so it was eagerly anticipated and there was even a teaser episode where they found a derelict Borg Cube) they finally did and whats happened? The Borg are getting their arses handed to them. Nobody wanted to see that. The Borg were supposed to be the baddest of the bad and nobody wanted to see some new race wiping the floor with them. The Borg got totally ruined from that point out, their finest hours were in The Next Generation and the movie First Contact.

As for the Vong, I think the EU needed a major war that didnt get settled in three books but I think that there was room enough with what was already in the Star Wars universe to accomodate that (heh, maybe Jag Fel could have shot Jaina out of the sky instead of becoming number one "im going to be killed to make Jaina angry in a future novel" character, to return to the threads original topic for a second :D). I agree that the Vong are not really Star Wars-style aliens but I dont think they are Star Trek style aliens either because Trek has never had a race that waged undiscriminating and unstoppable war against all races because they were "infidels" (with the argueable and somewhat ironic exception of The Borg :D, but i think youll agree that the Vong cant really be seen as based on the Borg in their philosophy or approach) The wierd thing about 8472 is theyre not Star Trek style aliens either. If I were you, I'd blame Babylon 5, theyve got a couple of choice races you could accuse NJO authors of taking a good, long look at :D

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Maybe we'll get lucky and the Yuuzahn Vong'll slaughter everyone of those little snot nosed prissy Jedi.

 

Of course, the only EU I'm worried about is that which I GM...in which most of the Jedi are already dead from a huge civil war within the ranks caused by Palpatine manipulating the Young Jedi Xavier and causing him to turn on his brother - Xane(hey, my friends aren't the most original guys in the world) and best friend Melchiah(of course, theres only like 6 Jedi in my universe). Xavier preaches that Luke has lost his mind(which he did) and that the Jedi should kill him.

 

Yea, Xavier's future = Teh Very Bleak

 

(because Melchiah is my guy:p)

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Originally posted by Kain

Maybe we'll get lucky and the Yuuzahn Vong'll slaughter everyone of those little snot nosed prissy Jedi.

 

Of course, the only EU I'm worried about is that which I GM...

 

(because Melchiah is my guy:p)

 

I never considered RPG EU, but whatever rocks you boat... :)

 

and the Yuuzhan Vong are no longer a serious threat to the galaxy... lemme guess you've read <1 NJO book, so the NJO sucks right :p

 

* * *

 

Kurgan, you are forbidden to mention 8472 in this thread again !

 

JK....

 

seriously man, the biotech is NOT what the NJO is all about... if it was, then there are far better sci fi authors that deal with technology issues, at the expense of storyline and characterisation :D

 

mtfbwya

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