BioWare vs Obsidian

[THE MANDALORE]

I just got done playing through both KOTOR games and was wondering whether TSL would have been more interesting if BioWare had designed the game instead of Obsidian. Any thoughts or ideas?

[FiEND_138]

IMO, if Bio had the reins it would have been more of the simplicity of the 1st plot; A -> B -> C.

 

Personaly, I prefer TSL way of telling the story, where everything wasn't so clear. I really liked the whole figuring things out & not having it handed to you, like in K1. That may just be me though........

 

 

Welcome to the boards BTW.

[Boba Rhett]

I think a happy middle ground between the two story telling ways would be great. Leaning a little more torwards the Obsidian way though.

[Derc]

I'll have to prefer Bioware simply because of the greatness of KoTOR. Could TSL been better? Quite possibly, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the same way.

Too bad they traded in the Force for martial arts.

[nas77]

IMO Obsidian did a brilliant job, though I guess most of the groundwork had already been laid out by Bioware. Nevertheless considering what Obsidian produced under pressure I'd be very excited if they were given the responsibility of Kotor 3 plus some breathing space this time.

[ChAiNz.2da]

Originally posted by Boba Rhett

I think a happy middle ground between the two story telling ways would be great. Leaning a little more torwards the Obsidian way though.

Agreed.

 

Obsidian's storytelling I thought was way better, however, personally, I connected with my KotOR party better than I have with TSL's. I don't know... maybe because there's so much story with each NPC, and perhaps the loose ends left by TSL that it just didn't feel as complete as KotOR... I need closure damnit hehe...

 

A good mix between the both them would be a stellar game!

[montnoir]

TSL had no driving force up until after Atris. I mean there was no reason for the Exile to do what he did. You were just ushered on a preestablished path. Let me explain.

 

KOTOR1: Your ship is blown up in space. You crash on Taris. Your mission is to save Bastila for the Republic. You save Bastila. You need to take Bastila to the Jedi Enclave. You take her there. WOW, dude, you're strong in the force! You stay with us so we can train you. Your training requires you to investigate some ruins. WOW, Revan was there! Follow the clues!

 

You are given logical reasons for your player's actions.

 

KOTOR2 TSL on the other hand:

 

You wake up. You run around. A SITH LORD HUNTS YOU! You blow a planet up to escape. About here there is no reason for Exile to go to Telos. Kreia says it's the force that guides you to Telos. What? When? Where? Why should the Exile go to Telos? WHY? Why should he agree to go to Telos? What is his reason for going to Telos? He has spent the last 10 years keeping away from the galaxy and now when the SITH are hounding him he does what? Goes to Telos?! WHY?!?! Alright, he sees the Sith are on the rise. He wants to stop them. And how does he do that? By going to Telos? WTF?! He saw the hologam, he knew the Republic wanted to talk to him, he knew an entire capitol ship had been sent to find him and bring him in. And he avoids them? WHY? Being the great general that he is why doesn't he go back to the Republic? Why does he want to take on the Sith by himself? And most importantly, WHY DOES HE GO TO TELOS?!

 

Then he goes to Telos and loses his ship so he needs to go down to the surface to find a needle in a haystack. And he is ok with that plan... it doesn't matter, he ends up at Atris's academy. He has a fight with Atris and tells her "Give me back my ship and I'll be going" then he walks away?! Was all of this for a ship? Why does he walk away. Where does he walk away to? What is his plan? Just to fly away to stop the Sith? That is his plan? Things to do today: 1. Stop the Sith. Great plan!

 

Then on the ship the droid shows him the holo. The council exiles him then says "There's something strange with him". And the Exile goes: "CRAP, I need to find them to get some answers, otherwise I'll never stop the Sith!".

 

That is so weak. You are thrown from situation to situation and your only choices are some really strange ones that are only there to get you from point A to B. But the logic reasoning behind it is so weak and very videogame-ish.

 

And most of the time the one who tells where to go and you obey like a dog is Kreia and especially if you are LS she says only things like "Don't help the ones in need! Kill the ones that don't agree with you. Use your friends. Kill your friends if you have to. They are weak. You have to be strong by lying and using them for your own ends." And the Exile listens to her without questioning and lets her lead him wherever she wants. I explain this with Kreia using the Force to make the Exile stupid. It's the only explanation.

 

 

Therefore KOTOR1 has a more held together story. But on the other hand it is simplistic. VERY simplistic. TSL has depth and grandeur but is pulled down by illogical videogamish actions.

 

Bioware did much better job of presenting their simple story than Obsidian. But Obsidian on the other hand had a deeper, grander, stranger, cooler story, but lacked in presentation and fell flat on following up on plotlines they established, leaving 30% of plotlines hanging (and NO "they set up KOTOR 3" is NOT an excuse, a game is a game).

[Nevhision]

I liked Kotor 1's story better. Seemed to have more of that old star wars spirit in it. Romance was better in Kotor1.0 I like Kotor's 2 new mechanics but that doesn't really count since Bio was building and Obsidian was upgrading. For party members, for both there were ones I liked and didn't like. Kotor 1 wins hands-down for villans and boss fights.

 

So I'm for bioware, and if you check out Dragon Age, they have a lot of good stuff going on there right now. If Obsidian was given the chance to finish the last 4 hours of Kotor2, I might say they're even.

[nas77]

Originally posted by montnoir

KOTOR2 TSL on the other hand:

 

You wake up. You run around. A SITH LORD HUNTS YOU! You blow a planet up to escape. About here there is no reason for Exile to go to Telos. Kreia says it's the force that guides you to Telos. What? When? Where? Why should the Exile go to Telos? WHY? Why should he agree to go to Telos? What is his reason for going to Telos? He has spent the last 10 years keeping away from the galaxy and now when the SITH are hounding him he does what? Goes to Telos?! WHY?!?! Alright, he sees the Sith are on the rise. He wants to stop them. And how does he do that? By going to Telos? WTF?! He saw the hologam, he knew the Republic wanted to talk to him, he knew an entire capitol ship had been sent to find him and bring him in. And he avoids them? WHY? Being the great general that he is why doesn't he go back to the Republic? Why does he want to take on the Sith by himself? And most importantly, WHY DOES HE GO TO TELOS?!

 

Then he goes to Telos and loses his ship so he needs to go down to the surface to find a needle in a haystack. And he is ok with that plan... it doesn't matter, he ends up at Atris's academy. He has a fight with Atris and tells her "Give me back my ship and I'll be going" then he walks away?! Was all of this for a ship? Why does he walk away. Where does he walk away to? What is his plan? Just to fly away to stop the Sith? That is his plan? Things to do today: 1. Stop the Sith. Great plan!

 

Then on the ship the droid shows him the holo. The council exiles him then says "There's something strange with him". And the Exile goes: "CRAP, I need to find them to get some answers, otherwise I'll never stop the Sith!".

 

That is so weak. You are thrown from situation to situation and your only choices are some really strange ones that are only there to get you from point A to B. But the logic reasoning behind it is so weak and very videogame-ish.

 

And most of the time the one who tells where to go and you obey like a dog is Kreia and especially if you are LS she says only things like "Don't help the ones in need! Kill the ones that don't agree with you. Use your friends. Kill your friends if you have to. They are weak. You have to be strong by lying and using them for your own ends." And the Exile listens to her without questioning and lets her lead him wherever she wants. I explain this with Kreia using the Force to make the Exile stupid. It's the only explanation.

 

 

Therefore KOTOR1 has a more held together story. But on the other hand it is simplistic. VERY simplistic. TSL has depth and grandeur but is pulled down by illogical videogamish actions.

 

Bioware did much better job of presenting their simple story than Obsidian. But Obsidian on the other hand had a deeper, grander, stranger, cooler story, but lacked in presentation and fell flat on following up on plotlines they established, leaving 30% of plotlines hanging (and NO "they set up KOTOR 3" is NOT an excuse, a game is a game). [/b]

 

 

You're missing the point - Kreia is manipulating you through the whole game and the only way for the player to feel manipulated is if s/he feels a little confused with only Kreia being the driving force for the plotline. If everything was as certain as Kotor you wouldn't get the sense of being manipulated and Kreia would plummet from being a strong, mysterious character to a redundant one who adds nothing to the game. Similarly, TSL would no longer have a deeper, grander, stranger, cooler story, as you put it.

 

 

I also disagree with 'they set up Kotor 3' not being an excuse. Think of all the plotlines hanging at the end of ESB or Two Towers or any other middle part of a trilogy - as long as there is a third instalment that determines the story, inconclusiveness is not a bad thing. Furthermore a TSL ending that wraps everything up in a neat little bow might make it more difficult to script Kotor 3 because there wouldn't be as much space for Obsidian or whoever to manoeveur.

 

I'm not defending LA for rushing Obsidian, by the way, the bugs do piss me off but are we sure Obsidian didn't decide to cut the scripted endings out for Kotor 3's sake?

[Iluvguns]

Btw: you went to Telos because that was the only place the ship had on its maps.

[LukeKatarn]

Bio was better. They had much more bugs, but the plot was easier to understand. TSL is like so WHAT THE HECK AM I DOING HERE!? WHAT'S MY PURPOUSE!? Atleast in KotOR 1 it's like "Yeah ok, I'm a soilder and I've crashed." Also the transit to base option was taken out, it only works on like Peragus or sumthin, and even then... ALso there were abunch of annoying glitches in number 2.

On Nar Shaada when teh Thrands atack your ship, you have to kill teh leader. I was knocked out fighting teh leader, and didn't get up. And tehn Handmaiden killed teh leader. So when teh scene after loaded I had noone in my party, so since I was kncoked out, it was game over. And I had to starnt like teh WHOLE planet over cus of that.

[Venom750]

I like KOTOR 1 better because it has a much more finished feel to it because in KOTOR 2 at the end theres still stuff that needs to be explained like where the HK factory and so on..

[d_jedi]

The ending made KOTOR1 good. (

You're Revan! Holy @$()*!

).

The ending unmade KOTOR2 (relatively speaking.

[Drazin]

Sorry, but the "OMFG" plot twist of Kotor1 was in the middle, the ending of that game wasn't really that great. It was in fact "Typical" in respect that the Good guy's get medals and everyone is happy happy, while the Bad guy's rebuild their Uber army and everyones like "Woot! The Boss is Back Baby!"

 

I can't abide by those kinds of endings, not for this type of game. It's almost cliche really. And that just don't cut it in my book. So all ya'll that got hyper over the Kotor1 endings, play Mario Bro's.

 

Obsidian gave an ending that you actually had to *shudder* "Think" through for yourself. The entire game was a build up for the end. Every conversation, every action and every piece of information you gathered gave you all you needed to put together the "End" for you. They even had -youknowwho- spill the beans about everything at the end, just incase you were too hopped up on Mountain Dew and Gobstoppers to pay attention to anything you did throughout the game.

Yes they were Rushed, BioWare wasn't. Sure I'd have liked a nice movie at the end showing something more than it did, but I also know that this is just a build up for the next game.

 

Obsidian took what Bioware had and gave it depth and feel. They made the dialogue matter. They made you think about what you are doing, what you did and what you are about to do instead of hack and slash your way to the end to see some pretty movie clip of people cheering. The ONLY really great thing about Kotor1 was the Plot twist. Kotor2 didn't really have that kind of impact as far as the story goes, but the story itself was better.

 

Say what you will, you are entitled to your Opinions as am I. But most of those who think K2 sucked, don't have the attention span of a butterfly and couldnt possibly hope to grasp the story and concept anyway. Such is Evident in some of the "OMG HELP" questions that popped up here more than once, and were little more than "Dude, check the Box down the hall." answers to get you to the next big game stopper dilemna.

 

[/Rant]

 

Whew, I feel better now.

[montnoir]

Originally posted by Drazin

I can't abide by those kinds of endings, not for this type of game. It's almost cliche really. And that just don't cut it in my book. So all ya'll that got hyper over the Kotor1 endings, play Mario Bro's.

We are talking Star Wars here (and you are being unnecessarily antagonstic). Bioware set out to make a cinematic game and took inspiration from the Star Wars movies:

 

Episode 1: Ends with everyone getting a medal and standing in a row overlooking a plaza, getting huge cheers from crowds.

 

Episode 2: Anakin and Padme stand side by side overlooking a lake, with the droids by their side.

 

Episode 4: Everyone gets a medal (except Chewie) and stand in a row overlooking the great hall of Yavin IV, getting huge cheers from crowd.

 

Episode 5: Luke and Leia stand side by side in the window of a capitol ship overlooking the Rebel fleet, with the droids by their side.

 

Episode 6: The heroes stand side by side overlooking the Ewok Village plaza, getting huge cheers from dancing Ewoks.

 

KOTOR 1: (LS) Heroes get medals and stand side by side on some balcony overlooking the Unknown World getting huge cheers from crowd or (DS) Revan and Bastila stand side by side overlooking Korriban and getting huge cheers from the loyal Sith.

 

KOTOR 2:

A long chat

 

Overall, I think KOTOR1 captured the spirit of Star Wars better than KOTOR 2.

 

KOTOR 2 is a good game. KOTOR 2 has an interesting and good, thought-provoking story. But it is not as smoothly and logically delivered as KOTOR 1 and it doesn't evoke the same Star Wars feeling as KOTOR 1 does. And that has nothing to do with attention spans or intelligence.

[Ellderon]

KOTOR 2 has a interesting stroy, but it's full of plotholes and thing that could be defined as "bordering on ruining canon..or belivablity of both".

 

I like the way the stroy was told, the switching of charachters of KOTOR 2.

But KOTOR 1 seemd more SW-like.

 

With KOTOR 2 it's:

 

 

Getting utterly confused.

If the wound in the force is a product of great pain for a jedi (deaths of millions), why didn't hte destruction of Kataar or Alderaan cause other jedi to die/lose force connection? Kataar would surely be anuke comapred to Malacor V. A big planet full of force sensitives and jedi!

And the whole wound in the force..what a utter stupidity.. if the Force is hte "energy field sorrounding all living things" as Obi-wan puts it, how can you destroy it? You cannot destroy energy!

So how can you be the end of the Force?

 

Why do Kreia, Sion and Nihilus act so stupidly? Didn't the two kick teh old hag out of that temple? Why did they let her back?

 

- How did Ebon Hawk survve?

- Who the hell are the real Sith?

- Why do you have to go beyond the Rim to fight them?

- Why did Revan go there?

- Why must you go ALONE? "I'm going to wage was on an ancient and powerfull empire on my own...aren't I a bad boy?"

 

And hte list goes on and on and on... Like the Duracell rabbit.

 

 

[stingerhs]

^^^^

you do realize that all the questions you just asked that are apart of the ending of kotor II are supposed to be setting up the story for kotor III, right??

 

just look at it from the same perspective that George Lucas looked at the original trilogy: a dramatic perspective. all drama consists of three basic parts: the exposition, the middle, and the conclusion. the exposition is where you introduce the story. the middle is where a tension builds up to a point that the whole situation looks hopeless. And the conclusion usually contains the climax where the tension is resolved.

 

just step back and take a look at the series so far. its not too difficult to see how the story so far is lining up with the basic concept of drama.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The ending really wasn't that nice. ESB had a feeling of closure at the very least and you knew what was going to happen next(or at least, that something is going to happen).

 

Now you're just wondering if the game really just ended.

 

 

Closure could come in many form. Seeing your party members for example. Maybe just a little ending speech. That's what I think made it feel really incomplete. What happened to everyone?

 

[McPurplesaber]

Originally posted by montnoir

TSL had no driving force up until after Atris. I mean there was no reason for the Exile to do what he did. You were just ushered on a preestablished path. Let me explain.

 

KOTOR1: Your ship is blown up in space. You crash on Taris. Your mission is to save Bastila for the Republic. You save Bastila. You need to take Bastila to the Jedi Enclave. You take her there. WOW, dude, you're strong in the force! You stay with us so we can train you. Your training requires you to investigate some ruins. WOW, Revan was there! Follow the clues!

 

You are given logical reasons for your player's actions.

 

KOTOR2 TSL on the other hand:

 

You wake up. You run around. A SITH LORD HUNTS YOU! You blow a planet up to escape. About here there is no reason for Exile to go to Telos. Kreia says it's the force that guides you to Telos. What? When? Where? Why should the Exile go to Telos? WHY? Why should he agree to go to Telos? What is his reason for going to Telos? He has spent the last 10 years keeping away from the galaxy and now when the SITH are hounding him he does what? Goes to Telos?! WHY?!?! Alright, he sees the Sith are on the rise. He wants to stop them. And how does he do that? By going to Telos? WTF?! He saw the hologam, he knew the Republic wanted to talk to him, he knew an entire capitol ship had been sent to find him and bring him in. And he avoids them? WHY? Being the great general that he is why doesn't he go back to the Republic? Why does he want to take on the Sith by himself? And most importantly, WHY DOES HE GO TO TELOS?!

 

Then he goes to Telos and loses his ship so he needs to go down to the surface to find a needle in a haystack. And he is ok with that plan... it doesn't matter, he ends up at Atris's academy. He has a fight with Atris and tells her "Give me back my ship and I'll be going" then he walks away?! Was all of this for a ship? Why does he walk away. Where does he walk away to? What is his plan? Just to fly away to stop the Sith? That is his plan? Things to do today: 1. Stop the Sith. Great plan!

 

Then on the ship the droid shows him the holo. The council exiles him then says "There's something strange with him". And the Exile goes: "CRAP, I need to find them to get some answers, otherwise I'll never stop the Sith!".

 

That is so weak. You are thrown from situation to situation and your only choices are some really strange ones that are only there to get you from point A to B. But the logic reasoning behind it is so weak and very videogame-ish.

 

And most of the time the one who tells where to go and you obey like a dog is Kreia and especially if you are LS she says only things like "Don't help the ones in need! Kill the ones that don't agree with you. Use your friends. Kill your friends if you have to. They are weak. You have to be strong by lying and using them for your own ends." And the Exile listens to her without questioning and lets her lead him wherever she wants. I explain this with Kreia using the Force to make the Exile stupid. It's the only explanation.

 

 

Therefore KOTOR1 has a more held together story. But on the other hand it is simplistic. VERY simplistic. TSL has depth and grandeur but is pulled down by illogical videogamish actions.

 

Bioware did much better job of presenting their simple story than Obsidian. But Obsidian on the other hand had a deeper, grander, stranger, cooler story, but lacked in presentation and fell flat on following up on plotlines they established, leaving 30% of plotlines hanging (and NO "they set up KOTOR 3" is NOT an excuse, a game is a game).

 

You are flipping hysterical. I completely agree. I think the only reason you go to Telos is because you're hyperdrive is busted to hell and Telos is the closest planet you can get to without it. Oh, no, wait, I'm wrong. By that time, the hyperdrive is working.

So yeah, you're right.

[stingerhs]

^^^^

nope, you're still wrong.

the game specifically points out that the navicomputer was voice-locked, and the only destination in the navicomputer after you escape from Peragus is Telos. T3 later allows you to travel to the other planets by providing his own astrogation charts stored within his memory.

hope that helps out a bit.

[Antonius]

As far as the story goes. They are neck and neck to me. Bioware did a much better job with ending kotor then Obsidian did I think. As far as characters go Bioware did a btter job creating the NPC stories. Obsidian made a great game, but they also just used everything that Bioware made. All the armor was the same, swords, guns. It doesnt look like they made a lot of stuff on their own. The robes and planets.

[montnoir]

Originally posted by nas77

I also disagree with 'they set up Kotor 3' not being an excuse. Think of all the plotlines hanging at the end of ESB or Two Towers or any other middle part of a trilogy - as long as there is a third instalment that determines the story, inconclusiveness is not a bad thing. Furthermore a TSL ending that wraps everything up in a neat little bow might make it more difficult to script Kotor 3 because there wouldn't be as much space for Obsidian or whoever to manoeveur.

 

I'm not defending LA for rushing Obsidian, by the way, the bugs do piss me off but are we sure Obsidian didn't decide to cut the scripted endings out for Kotor 3's sake?

I do not want to continue playing KOTOR 2 characters in KOTOR 3. I do not want to have a direct continuation of the story from KOTOR 2. It is good if they mention (like they did with K1) and take into consideration some of the events from KOTOR 2, but no more. Not to continue with the Exile. And if they actually go through with it and make KOTOR 3 - The Sith Lords 2... then they have lost me as a customer. I want new characters and new powerful story.

 

Therefore it would suck even more, if they cut out the scripted endings because of KOTOR 3, because I don't want to continue play KOTOR 2 in KOTOR 3.

[90SK]

I think the main problem with the K2 storyline was that too much of it was in diolauge. I'm noticing a lot of questions and complaints that were all answered for me during the game. As for the entire "OE did a bad job on the story", that is not true. They might have just made it too complex for a video game. And as for the ending...well, it was pretty bad. But considering what they had to cut out, you have to give them some credit. Its mostly just that LA rushed the games release at the expense of some closure.

[montnoir]

I wrote this in another thread, but it fits here just as well.

 

They tried to do something more than they could handle with the story. And "interpret it yourselves. You have to think" is just a bad excuse for overambitious writing because they didn't present a story that was held together, the story kind o fell apart in certain stages of it's development in-game (I can't even imagine in how many ways it fell apart in the programming bit, ouch). I am sure it looks great in the original script who ended up being bigger and grander than the 2001, Solaris and Dune series-es put together, but what made it into the actual game was just a weak attempt at space-opera. Anyone who has read any of the series of books I mentioned know what I mean with "interpret it for yourselves" because those of any books leave you wondering what the hell you just read? Leaving you with confused thoughts for days afterwards until you puzzle it out, with some heavy thinking.

 

Star Wars is not a space-opera it is a really-light version of it. With the emphasis more on action-adventure than the grander motifs like - death of the known universe, or the likes, that are the drive in abovementioned operas. What KOTOR 2 wanted to do was to bring these two together. To have the grander motif of dark hopeless space-opera blended with the fun action-adventure lightness of Star Wars.

 

And that is an admirable goal that could have ended up being the most impressive game/game-storyline of all times but they couldn't pull through (maybe they would have with more time or maybe not) and ended up being just so-so.

 

Nevertheless it is a great game. It's just that it could have been so much more...

[nas77]

Originally posted by montnoir

I do not want to continue playing KOTOR 2 characters in KOTOR 3. I do not want to have a direct continuation of the story from KOTOR 2. It is good if they mention (like they did with K1) and take into consideration some of the events from KOTOR 2, but no more. Not to continue with the Exile. And if they actually go through with it and make KOTOR 3 - The Sith Lords 2... then they have lost me as a customer. I want new characters and new powerful story.

 

Therefore it would suck even more, if they cut out the scripted endings because of KOTOR 3, because I don't want to continue play KOTOR 2 in KOTOR 3.

There is no reason why a Kotor 3 with a new story cannot simultaneously provide a conclusion to Kotor 2. That doesn't mean you have exactly the same characters; yes I agree with you on that point it would suck. But it would also suck if some potentially brilliant piece of scripting for Kotor 3 couldn't have been implemented because Atton was dead or the Disciple was dead or whatever else the unearthed sound files seem to suggest. It also sucks to condemn a story for being unfinished when at this point in time it is yet to reach its conclusion.

 

I think all this moaning over Kotor 2's ending is tantamount to crying over spilt milk - there's nothing to be done about it (modding aside if you really need to see those scenes) and people should put this outrage to bed. Of course I hope that Obsidian or whoever will add to the story as well as complete it - so let's leave the story-bashing till we see the whole picture. If by then we are still saying wtf? then and only then can we damn it.