Item Restrictions & negative props in modded items, What do you think about them?

[T7nowhere]

Please read this post in full before voteing

Comments are also appreciated.

 

Recently I have become aware by a few other modders that they don't like to place item restrictions or negative properties on their modded items and were adamant about not useing them at all. If you're unfamilar by what I mean by Item restrictions and Negative properties I'll give a few examples.

 

Item restrictions:

 

1) Restricting an item so that only a single npc or PC can use it or restricing the item by alignment. The reason for adding this could be as simple as an item that technically would only work properly if restriced to an npc or PC characters.

 

2) Another could be as in the case of Implants in TSL and that they can only be used if the character meets the Constitution Requirment. This type of restriction can be placed on any attribute. The Idea is so that If you want the Bonuses the items may give you must meet the conditions, the second part is to add balance to the game.

 

3) Other Item restrictions might Feat or skill related. If you don't meet the requiments you don't get the bonuses. Agian the purpose of sucha restriction is to help maintain game balance.

 

Negative Properties: The purpose of adding a negative prop would be to balance out a positive property.

 

Such a property could be adding a defense Penalty while giving an attack bonus or vise versa. There are several way of useing Negative props in order to balance out a positive bonus. But you may ask if your gonna reduce a stat bonus then why bother to give a bonus. To that I say, becuase Its fun

 

I feel these types of properties can add dimension to the gameplay and to help set the tone for certain types of story context.

 

Either way I would like your opinion on the use of such properties.

[dakota6789]

I feel that you are completely correct. What is the fun in playing if the game isn't fair and challenging.

[Drakonnen]

I think restrictions and negative properties are perfectly fine, and should be encouraged.

 

For instance, I'm working on my Jedi and Sith armor skins/items, and I plan to make them restricted by Lightside and Darkside, as well as restricted to force users. Without those restrictions it would almost destroy the uniqueness and purpose behind them I'd think.

 

Sure, there is nothing wrong with making items with stats above what are currently available in game, but if you go too far with it, whats the point of even playing if nothing is challenging any longer with all of your uber gear?

[Emperor Devon]

I agree as well. Powerful items need balancing out, or they're too powerful. Where is the fun in a game that is impossible to lose in?

[ChAiNz.2da]

I have mixed feelings (guilty as charged )

 

I can understand the necessity for balance and of course the negative modifiers are a good idea.... to a certain point.

 

If an item has a bonus or restriction, I think it's imperative there'a a reason for it.

ie - Sabers. I mean why can only my PC use the item.. is there a Force bond, a fingerprint coder, etc.? I hate to use the movies as examples, but Ani & Obi were swapping sabers like it was kewl...

Guns. Is it a clunky mother? is it too light for an effective steady hold?

 

I think the same applies to bonuses too though. Why do I have a better Dex? is it lighter? is it more balanced?

 

I think if we use such modifiers, it should be part of the item's (.uti) description. Of course I may just be picky, but it's what's on my brain at the moment heheh

 

I'm STILL trying to find out how an item has a Gender check (other than clothes), or why either LS or DS only can use something (alignment checks? wth)? I won't completely abandon the idea, but it'll take some convincing

 

Unfortunately, TSL and KotOR avoided such burdens with some their horrible item descriptions

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about balance, I just like to have reasons why if I throw a blaster at Atton, he has some problem with using it (snob) hehehe

[T7nowhere]

If an item has a bonus or restriction, I think it's imperative there'a a reason for it. ie - Sabers. I mean why can only my PC use the item.. is there a Force bond, a fingerprint coder, etc.?

 

Putting an Alignment restriction on an item is a way of forcing the player to make a philosophical choice. In the case of putting a npc or alignment restriction on an item like a saber would be to ensure that one a light side character can not use a saber that once belonged to some EVIL Sith (as from an RP point of view I doubt a jedi would use a saber that once belonged to a Sith. Unless they had no other choice) From a gameplay point of view I would put an alignment restriction on an item If I intended to give a extra bonus to that alignment.

[ChAiNz.2da]

Originally posted by T7nowhere

Putting an Alignment restriction on an item is a way of forcing the player to make a philosophical choice. In the case of putting a npc or alignment restriction on an item like a saber would be to ensure that one a light side character can not use a saber that once belonged to some EVIL Sith (as from an RP point of view I doubt a jedi would use a saber that once belonged to a Sith. Unless they had no other choice) From a gameplay point of view I would put an alignment restriction on an item If I intended to give a extra bonus to that alignment.

I can see your point. But say I put a LS only property on a sword. I know well enough a Sith wouldn't think twice about hacking me down with it... but he wouldn't be able to with the property. I guess I'm really saying is, if there's a bonus/penalty... tell us "Why?" whether if it's in your readme file, item description, etc.

 

Now I know I can make up a reason myself, but surely the modder had a reason in the first place? Let us know...is all I'm asking. We've got alot of talent here at Holowan and I hate to see items 'rushed out' just to release it before someone else might. Take your time and get involved in your mod and I trust fellow players will be all the more grateful

[Dollar_Bill]

I should preface my statement with the admission that I change every mod for KOTOR 1 and 2 to my liking.

I respect the talent and artistic flair of those who mod but in the end I almost always modify the mods themselves so it better suites my tastes. After All, who better to decide what is fair and what is not fair but myself? why should someone else tell me how to play a game I bought and then force thier notion of balance on me?

If it is the wish of any modder to include restrictions and negative properties, that is of course thier prerogative. Who am I to tell or demand someone to change thier vision or creation just to fit my tastes? I encourage any modder to do what they think is right and make thier creation in any way they see fit.

But in the end since I went out and bought the game, went through the effort of downloading and installing the mods, then I will change them in any way I see fit and play the game in a manner I wish. However, I can not stand the notion of some one forcing their ideals on me not matter how small or how well justified. But that might be just me.

[kasimmorathi]

My feelings on powerful items are usually based upon when I'm playing the game. The first time through, I usually would prefer to take it exactly as the game hands it out, just to preserve some of the challenge of the original. But like I began to feel in KOTOR;

 

 

I'm Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith, I want to be able to make these pitiful whelps kneel before me with ease.

 

 

After beating KOTOR countless times, I ended up just using T7's capeless Revan robes for a cinematic and role-playing feel rather than for how l33t stats they were. If they had a few negative stats added on, just to help balance it out and make it a bit more challenging.

 

I agree with Chainz though, if you're going to modify or create an item, add a bit more description to it. For instance;

 

 

Other than the simple reason that his arm is frelled up, and the designers didn't want to create another set of robe models, why can't Bao'Dur wear the Jedi robes when you turn him into a Guardian?

 

 

As for why certain weapons and items might be restricted to Dark or Light side.. well.. its mentioned several times throughout the game, movies and books, that items in the hands of certain people leave a mark upon it. A Dark Side taint or whatnot. Maybe that simply makes a Light Sider a bit nauseous and unable to attack properly, or even hold the weapon. Something along those lines. I tabletop Star Wars a lot, so I've heard all sorts of descriptions on weapons, armor and such that explain penalties, rather than just tell you that you have to deal with it. Stormtrooper armor, why do they have such -terrible- accuracy during the movies? Well, their helmet constricts their field of vision, is awfully dark and lowers their perception by a point or two. Armor protects them, but the joints are rigid and difficult to work in. Ever tried typing on a keyboard with winter gloves? You might have the protection it provides, but you've lost a point or two of dexterity.

 

It's nice to have a little backstory to your items, especially if they explained why you have penalties to your stats. It's also nice to have a little balance, so you don't feel too much like a god struttin' through the galaxy, but enough bonus to make you feel like you -are- its savior or its conquerer.

 

I'm always happy to help come up with descriptions or write them out entirely. I have absolutely no modding/modeling talent, but I can at least be somewhat descriptive about things and have a fair grasp of spelling and grammar.

[ChAiNz.2da]

Originally posted by kasimmorathi

As for why certain weapons and items might be restricted to Dark or Light side.. well.. its mentioned several times throughout the game, movies and books, that items in the hands of certain people leave a mark upon it. A Dark Side taint or whatnot. Maybe that simply makes a Light Sider a bit nauseous and unable to attack properly, or even hold the weapon. Something along those lines.

Now that's a description I can handle

Great job... you're convincing me for that property

[Mav]

I have no problems with negative properties or restricting properties, I just rarely make them because of the PM's I get to change them lol, but if I download a mod with restrictions etc. I just leave it as it is I don't really care about the properties, but I agree with ChAiNz, backround stories/explanations are sweet. However, the reason that I didn't put restrictions for my sabers in the recent prestige pack released, is because I knew some people would want to collect 'em all like pokemon... lol, but it is restricted by RedHawke's script, but they could still get them by cheating, but it just goes to say that there are other ways to "restrict" items without properties, i.e. scripts. I think that if you are making a mod, make it for yourself and then release it

[Achilles]

Originally posted by Dollar_Bill

I should preface my statement with the admission that I change every mod for KOTOR 1 and 2 to my liking.

I respect the talent and artistic flair of those who mod but in the end I almost always modify the mods themselves so it better suites my tastes. After All, who better to decide what is fair and what is not fair but myself? why should someone else tell me how to play a game I bought and then force thier notion of balance on me?

If it is the wish of any modder to include restrictions and negative properties, that is of course thier prerogative. Who am I to tell or demand someone to change thier vision or creation just to fit my tastes? I encourage any modder to do what they think is right and make thier creation in any way they see fit.

But in the end since I went out and bought the game, went through the effort of downloading and installing the mods, then I will change them in any way I see fit and play the game in a manner I wish. However, I can not stand the notion of some one forcing their ideals on me not matter how small or how well justified. But that might be just me.

No one forced you to download the mod either

 

I can't speak for everyone here, but when I create a mod, I usually put a lot of effort into game balance. If someone disagrees with my idea of what "balance" is...fine. But I'm not "forcing" my ideas on anyone. I make mods for me and often decide to share them with other. Download it...or don't. I don't really care. The idea that anyone is forcing anything on you is pretty ridiculous. Just my 2 cents.

[Darkkender]

I'm personally a big proponent of item restrictions and negative modifiers. I will admit that rarely do I put negative modifiers on a item. I do try to restrict the items in some way. If some have not yet figured out I favor Neutrality for my mods and there restrictions. Frequently my items get restricted to a neutral character. That and I have found that TSL various restrictions based on attribute minimums is also another great factor. Same with restricting it to specific characters. I however come from a heavy Role-Playing background so I favor game balance quite frequently.

[sketch42]

i have to agree with chainz to some extent... when im modding .. wheter it be making a robe or saber i make the descriptions as detailed as possible to explain why the bonuses are there and why the restrictions/penalties are there... even if im just making the item for myself... i feel the point of an rpg is to get ino the role... so if i have an item with Uber stats i wanna know why it does!!! believe it or not i wont download any mods from guys/gals who wont take the time to add a proper description for the item anymore... its just not fun...

and if a modder throws in a datapad for an even bigger description.. than they got my respect and ill download anything they throw at me.. the only point i disagree on with chainz.... and it seems like he may be changing his tone is the ls/ds restriction... as a LS'er if you find an item that has been tainted with the DS than that item would/should draw you to the DS the more you use it.. since DS energy is emenating from it no matter how strong your will may be your still sliding down the scale just for using it even.... dare i say it??... just having it in your inventory ... but maybe thats just me.. in any case im all for restrictions and bonuses(obviously) only and i mean only if they are used properly and with the proper descriptions

[RedHawke]

This is a subject that is ultimately all personal opinion... and is sadly a symptom of the flawed WotC D20 game system itself. D20 works well in a fantasy setting but it is ill suited for a sci-fi setting... it is too much like D&D to make reasonably well into Star Wars... by using the current system and having item attributes of any kind leads to the inevitable "Monty Haul" situation that is so prevalent in Fantasy RPG games.

 

This "Monty Haul" situation in various RPG systems, by their own design, leads to discussions just like this about Item or Game Balance. And imposing restrictions on items of any kind is a big sign of an imbalanced game system.

 

When you are restricted to these type of game systems the eternal question "What is too powerful?" is always going to net you a flurry of varying answers... and no 2 will be alike.

 

Personally, when forced to play in such a system, Item Restrictions make sense, to act as a balancing force for the ill concieved game system itself... And in TSL with the max level being 50, and the Prestiege Classes, Item Restrictions are very appropriate in TSL.

 

Now items that have Negative Properties, I would never use in any capacity... Hence I would never make such an item... (Example: In a Fantasy setting RPG negative properties imply a curse and who in their right mind wishes a curse upon themselves... I know you might... but I don't! So I say to the allmighty DM/GM you can keep your Magical Gauntlets of Titan Strength (STR:25) that reduce Dexterity -4, I'll stick with my lesser powered Gauntlets of Ogre Power (STR:18/00) because there is no down side to them.) So I, by default, feel this way in D20 Star Wars.

 

Besides, the stock game items seem to be powerful enough as-is. Some of these items have bonuses of +4 or more to specific attributes and a bonus of +10 to a skill, or multiple skill and attribute bonuses, let alone a certain Implant that gives +6 to all skills, or another one that gives +2 to all attributes, or yet another one that gives Immunity to everything, and another that gives quite a few feats... all these have no real downside.

 

I find it really hard to address a subject like this seriously when the game allready has "Monty Haul" items like this in circulation.

 

That being said I guess you could place me in the "Would Make Items With Restrictions" catagory, but also firmly in the "Would Not Make Items With Negative Properties" catagory.

 

As always this is only my 2 cents.

 

Clairification Edit: Monty Haul is an old PnP D&D and AD&D term referring to a particular campaign or a DM/GM that gives out too much "loot" to the PC party too fast, usually a flood of Gold Pieces and Magic Items so that the releatively low level PC's can mow over way higher level opponents. While they can be fun to play, and are great ways to introduce new younger or less patient players to a game, "Monty Haul" games are usually 2 dimensional and lack any real depth...

[The Source]

Item Retrictions!?!?!?!

 

I don't know. In my deep thought, I wouldn't put item restrictions on sabers or weapons. Maybe on clothing. Darkside clothes for dark siders... Etc... When I have a saber, and I am in a jam, I will toss the saber to another PC. If that saber cannot be used by others, then whats the use. I never use the "custom" crystal or sheild, for they get in the way of game progress. I try to keep my items universal, so I have a slight advantage in a high-level game.

 

Example to base my conclusion:

 

I was on GOTO's Yaught,

and as you know,

you are not part of the rescue party. Unfortunatly, the game only gave me one saber, and my main PC allready had it equiped, and I had the "custom" crystal in it's core. If I didn't equip it to her, or have a "custom" crystal in it, I could have hand it to Visas or Krea. I got my but handed to me in that level.

 

 

Edit tk102: No, I did not know that. I haven't played the game yet. Please use spoiler tags per forum rules.

[SuperSquall]

Personally I am a big fan of restrictions. Items restricted to certain characters make the individuals more distinct. One thing I didn't like about KotOR I was that it often didn't matter who was in my party. Everyone blurred into two real categories: Jedi, and Not. Character specific items help give the characters their individuality back. The handful of character specific feats in KotOR I and II just weren't enough.

 

As far as penalties are concerned I have mixed feelings about them. For obvious reasons I don't like having my stats lowered, however they do add more depth to the game mechanics. It moves the equipment philosophy from "Equip the stuff that is statistically and inarguably the best - there is no reason to not equip ____" to "If you equip this/use this upgrade item you will be able to do ____ better, but you better hope _____ doesn't happen.".

 

In my own mods I tend to lean towards restrictions on who can use what, but away from penalties, because I like to leave that aspect of customizability up to the upgrade system. They can have my item and then decide for themselves if they want to add a Biorestorative Underlay or an Environmental Mesh.

[General Kenobi]

Well for me in my case...

 

I like them "IF" and I stress IF they sorta match the model there for.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

I restricted Nomi Sunriders Custom Robes not Darkside or Lightside but to a female class. The reason I did this is in the robes description itself and explains why "males" cannot don her robes. The robes bonded with the noble Jedi Master over the years actually increasing her affinity with the force (my desc. for why i put force and vitality regeneration). They "bonded" with Nomi. I think it fits in that case so I"m a fan of that.

 

OR

 

If a evil sith were to pick up the ChAiNz uber saber (example) or something which was say lightside, a negative effect would be engaged due to them being a dark force user. If a Jedi picked up the saber he would get a bonus. That's a good example of a "logical" restriction.

 

BUT

 

A bad one would be say a Sith Sword that increased the Jedi who found it's force powers by many degrees. It wouldn't make sense cause if it were an actual darkside item it would not lend itself so readily to the Jedi's noble uses for it.

 

So I'm for restrictions as long as they "make sense" and are "logical" to the item.

 

But I agree "odd" restrictions like "you have to be neutral (neither light or dark) to use a gun or robe i'm not a fan of. To those that have played the games much we mod here its VERY HARD to stay neutral.

[Dollar_Bill]

Originally posted by Achilles

No one forced you to download the mod either

 

I can't speak for everyone here, but when I create a mod, I usually put a lot of effort into game balance. If someone disagrees with my idea of what "balance" is...fine. But I'm not "forcing" my ideas on anyone. I make mods for me and often decide to share them with other. Download it...or don't. I don't really care. The idea that anyone is forcing anything on you is pretty ridiculous. Just my 2 cents.

 

Well I guess you might have took my post a little to personally. I did say that I respected the effort and creativity of mods and modders themselves but for someone to tell me how to play the game by making some made up restriction without the effort of explaining it or justifying it is just lame. It is akin to the look but don't touch, touch but don't taste, taste but don't swallow mentality. That kind of mentality is ridiculous.

This was the kind of conversation I had hoped to avoid, where some modder takes sometihng a little too personally. I didn't accuse anyone personally of forcing thier inflated notions of balance on me, I just stated that I would rather decide what is fair or balanced myself rather then someone else.

As for my notion of balance, instead of bringing my character down to the level of everyone else, I would raise the level of everyone else as to fairly match my character. but to each thier own.

[General Kenobi]

QUESTION: ???

 

What about if the restrictions actually are logical when you put say a robe on and it explains all about the robe and includes the reason that it is restricted to (I dunno) someone like Visas (her lightsaber) and the like?

 

I can see how that restriction would make sense...

 

BUT

 

I'm sure all here have seen SWTCW Episode II... In the great Jedi battle on Genosis??? Well they swap lightsabers everywhere there. Both Anakin and Master Obi-Wan got tossed other lightsabers. You know they aren't their own because the arriving jedi would have no way of getting them other than Master Obi-Wan's. Anakin's was destroyed in the factory assy. area I think.

 

So if you follow that line of thinking Visa's lightsaber being restricted to her is not logical. It is a Jedi's most important posession but I didn't see any Jedi in the background going aah I touched a Master Czan saber.

 

I guess if you really think about it there is no good or evil force; the user deems how they use it. Master Yoda obviously had some knowledge of lightning attacks of Sith Lords cause he deflected that sucker like a "hot summer night's mosquito." That didn't make him evil though. From what I've seen from games & movies Jedi are taught how to deflect it with lightsabers (Obi-Wan did with Count Dukie) but Yoda actually reflected one with his hand right back and another he just absorbed it like nothing. I personally think that he obviously had vast knowledge of the sith storm power to be able to do that but NEVER would use it. Just how to nullify it. Knowledge is power I guess

 

MAN, this topic is just tough to pick a side...lol

 

I'd say FINAL OPINION That in-game thinking I kinda like em' save for the ones RedHawke touched on "the negative ones." If my strength is only 13 I sure don't want a -8 to strength. I'd be a bantha cud. Movie thinking both Sith and Jedi could use various items save prob. for the "really scarry ones" or "holy ones" depending on if your light or dark. Just my 2 cents in the pot...

[jblue789]

I agree with this. Though there are a few strange bits, but I like it overall. But, why would any modder actually restrict a lightsaber to ONE PC? Seriously, that's just stupid. I could understand limiting it to an alignment, but... yeah.

[Lord Odin]

Personally, for the few things I have created for myself thus far, I like having negative mods to balance the positive ones and such, but only if they fit the context of the item.

 

Essentially, while I agree throwing in restrictions helps for balancing issues, I think it should be done for RPG purposes. Each character has attributes that reflect their role. Droids have higher intelligence, due to their ability to process data quickly. A Consular would have higher charisma, resulting in a greater ability to persuade others and negotiate through situations. So I also believe that the items themselves should have attributes reflecting their role.

 

For instance, a "heavier than average" blaster rifle, which does more damage, would probably not be as easy to maneuver about and aim at opponents as a lighter one.

 

To reflect this in the game, you'd increase the base damage (greater firepower) while lowering the attack bonus (too heavy to properly wield) and possibly even a decent hit to attack bonus at that (because it's big and slow to maneuver, your opponent should essentially get a bonus to dodge modifiers). Of course to be completely balanced, it'd probably be best to add one's strength modifier to the To-Hit as well (a stronger person would wield a heavier blaster easier, it would seem), but I don't know if that could be changed.

 

Now, restrictions are a bit different. To say "Dark Side users can't use this" seems a bit too far, IMO. Sure, Mr. Sith Lord may choose not to use the "goody goody Jedi" weapon, but that's all it is; a choice. I can see gender restrictions on armor plates and stuff - I have my doubts that the Mandalorian armor is a "one size fits all" that fits male and female bodies the same. However, what's to really stop a Jedi Master from using any number of Sith relics? I think it might be better if it just added to your Dark Side points while it was equipped or something of the like. And instead of needing 16 Con to equip an implant, make it so that the implant grants bonuses based on your Constitution modifier. Like the lowest skills implant would add 1 * Con Modifier to each skill, but the highest might add 2 * Con Modifier + 2 to each skill.

 

That's my take on it...

[Achilles]

Originally posted by Dollar_Bill

Well I guess you might have took my post a little to personally. I did say that I respected the effort and creativity of mods and modders themselves but for someone to tell me how to play the game by making some made up restriction without the effort of explaining it or justifying it is just lame. It is akin to the look but don't touch, touch but don't taste, taste but don't swallow mentality. That kind of mentality is ridiculous.

This was the kind of conversation I had hoped to avoid, where some modder takes sometihng a little too personally. I didn't accuse anyone personally of forcing thier inflated notions of balance on me, I just stated that I would rather decide what is fair or balanced myself rather then someone else.

As for my notion of balance, instead of bringing my character down to the level of everyone else, I would raise the level of everyone else as to fairly match my character. but to each thier own.

I didn't take it personally at all. I'm still trying to figure out how you willingly downloading someone's mod equates to them forcing their views upon you. *Shrug*

 

Not a biggie.

 

Anyway, as for the discussion re: resticting items to individual characters or classes; both make sense. If the item is heavily modified by a character, then it would make sense that they would have modified to fit their personal use. As several paople have stated here, it would be nice if there were some sort of comment in the description that alluded to this, but not everyone is at skilled at creative writing as they are other things. Expecting everyone to be able effectively incorporate their ideas into the SW universe is setting yourself up for disappointment. Again, just my 2 cents.

[General Kenobi]

That is what I try to do on the meager 3 mods that I have made that are full blown items. The descriptions I try to use to give my robe or sword real viability. To make it make sense. I just like the idea of rambling on in the description....lol

[Dollar_Bill]

Originally posted by Achilles

I didn't take it personally at all. I'm still trying to figure out how you willingly downloading someone's mod equates to them forcing their views upon you. *Shrug*

Ah, there's the problem. Two my favourite quotes from big trouble at Holowan Labs might explain it for you.

 

"Friendship makes prosperity more brilliant, and lightens adversity by dividing and sharing it."-- Cicero (44 B.C.)

 

and

 

"Read the Forum rules" -- Darth333 (2005 A.D.)

 

Hope that helps.

 

Back on topic here...

 

Darth Melignous, Lord Odin, hit it right on the spot with their posts. If that is the kind of restrictions that would be placed on items with that kind of reasoning, then that would more then acceptable. However, I tend to favor the Redhawke's reasoning myself. Thats why I have nearly all of redhawkes mods installed for TSL and Kotor.

 

No flaming on the boards - Darth333

 

I think the need to edit my post made what I said seem like I said something harsh or heavily insulting, when it clearly was not, and what I said was not constructive nor did it advance the discussion, so I defer to the judgment of the admin. Achilles, what I said was in no way personally insulting to or an attack on your character. I just thought 2 quotes from Big Trouble in little china were more then apt in describing our situation in understanding each other. The meaning behind the quotes may have been misconstued by a overzealous admin without the proper context in describing said quotes.

 

Be that as it may, you would be wise to heed the benevolence of the moderator who edited your post. Others did not see it in the same way. -- tk102