Prime Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 For those who are interested, someone has posted a summary and review of the new post-NJO novel. Note that spoilers abound. You can read it all here. I am still hoping that I will like the post-NJO world, but this blurb has me worried: Views of the Force are different now, and it is no longer a sin to use anger as a means to an end, as long as that end is a good one. Kyp has always used anger as a means to an end, so it's not surprising for him to do so, but characters who have traditionally been calm and collected are now using their anger for power--characters such as Luke and Corran. I know that this is just som nobody's review, but WTF?? Are they just trying to go the exact opposite direction of the films? Are they all going to be usning Force Lightning and gripping people all in the name of Peace, Freedom, and Love? Someone who reads the book quickly will have to tell me if this is all true. Sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 That definately doesn't sound right. Using anger for the light side? Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Obviously anger is a path to the dark side. That novel is messed up, or the reviewer stinks at making reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Originally posted by Prime ... Are they just trying to go the exact opposite direction of the films? Sigh I havent read the Joiner King but I will definitely throw up if the book tries to 'recapture the films' The films are that exactly... Initial EU rehashed the films over amd over.... it was time to move on... Prime, seriously, avoid some disappointment in life and just avoid reading any SW lit from now on mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 I havent read the Joiner King but I will definitely throw up if the book tries to 'recapture the films' The films are that exactly... Initial EU rehashed the films over amd over.... it was time to move on... But why is using the film and pre-NJO model of the Force a rehash? That's like saying using movie characters is a rehash. Shouldn't the EU try to build on the films and earlier EU, and not try to contradict it? Why do new stories have to alter how the universe works to be fresh? Villians and heros can be changed to move to new story archs. Should hyperdrives, lightsabers, blasters, be traded in for warp drive, swords, and shotguns? Why aren't they rehashes of the films as well? Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Prime, seriously, avoid some disappointment in life and just avoid reading any SW lit from now on I really want to enjoy the post-NJO EU, and the I'm trying to give it a clean slate for these novels. I want to have stories about my childhood heroes. I plan on reading this book and giving it a fair chance. But if it does turn out as the summary claims and that Luke and Co. use anger to gain power in the Force and everything is fine, then yes, I will skip the the Dark Nest trilogy as well. I'm just not interested in books where the main plot points sirectly contradict the established canon of the saga. It just cheapens the films, IMO, and makes Anakin's fall make no sense. If everyone can use anger and the dark side powers (I know, there is no dark side), then why couldn't Anakin and Dooku do all the things they did and stay good guys, and in Anakin's case, save Padme? But you know where I stand on NJO philosophies. And I'm not trying to say the writing is bad or that people shouldn't enjoy them. I'm just hoping that the Force debates don't lead to the undoing of what has been an established part of the story for the past few decades. And for the record, I have enjoyed that vast majority of pre-NJO EU that I have read. So I will continue to read SW lit, since there is a lot more to it than just The NJO and post-NJO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Originally posted by Prime ...Anakin's fall make no sense. If everyone can use anger and the dark side powers (I know, there is no dark side), then why couldn't Anakin and Dooku do all the things they did and stay good guys, and in Anakin's case, save Padme? ... Anakins fall had less to do with the dark side than it did with his character flaws, you know that Everything Sidious told him about using the dark side was a carrot to lure him to become his apprentice. Its the bad traits in Anakin that the sith philosophy(anger, fear, agression) fits far more comfortably. At the end of the day, Luke, Leia and Solo twins just have their heads screwed on better than Anakin ever did... Remember ROTJ, Luke gets angry, charges at Vader, cuts him down... the emperor orders Luke to kill him.... Luke throws his saber away saying he'll never give in to the dark side... THIS exactly is the difference betweenanakin and his son.... so, in that instance, Luke used his anger to get the edge, was that wrong ?? Its already been done in EU before, in the Dark Empire series, Luke uses the dark side to ally himself with the clone emperor(to eventually destroy him)... even in JA, when you visit Vjun, Kyle Katarn doesnt mind using force lightning on the odd stormie/reborn So, dark side powers aint that bad, its how/why are used that counts.... Please also consider that the Jedi have fallen by the end of ROTS. Clinging to their stale old ways, they are confused about prophecies and cannot detect the sith right under their nose. You can hardly expect Luke to strive to recreate the old order. He doesnt, he moulds his teachings to fit *current* events and political alignments, all the while trying to stay committed to the force and what being a jedi is all about.... Also consider Prime, that things in any world CHANGE. Change is good, in fact its awesome. What sucks is stagnation. Institutions also change, eg. the catholic church no longer burns you at the stake for being interested in astronomy etc.... What is so special about the SW universe that its tenets are immutable to change ?? * * * Prime, what I am really looking forward to is your characteristic lamenting when the TV series comes out, "OMG itz TREK because the characters talk to each other rather than just shoot/fight/dodge/yell/kiss.." Dont throw your VCR away Prime, those old VHS tapes you have of the "original-original trilogy" may be your only link back to your true childhood heroes *cmon old fella, give us a hug* mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 22, 2005 Author Share Posted July 22, 2005 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Anakins fall had less to do with the dark side than it did with his character flaws, you know that Everything Sidious told him about using the dark side was a carrot to lure him to become his apprentice. Its the bad traits in Anakin that the sith philosophy(anger, fear, agression) fits far more comfortably. All Anakin wants is power, or so says Lucas (I know, Lucas doesn't know what he's talking about nor does it matter what he says ). He says on the ATOC DVD that the dark side of the force is in fact stronger than the light side, and that the key to Anakin's fall is that only the dark side can give him that power. But there is a price to pay. What you're saying is true about Palpatine luring Anakin to be his apprentice. But since Anakin has good intentions for the entire film (want's to save his wife, wants to protect his friend and mentor, wants to protect the Republic, wants to destroy the Jedi because he believes they are evil) he should have been the same person at the end of the film, and not evil. But I think you are saying there is no evil anyway. I mean, what are good intentions? It is all a matter of point of view, as Anakin says. Be he does in fact become evil in the end. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 At the end of the day, Luke, Leia and Solo twins just have their heads screwed on better than Anakin ever did... Remember ROTJ, Luke gets angry, charges at Vader, cuts him down... the emperor orders Luke to kill him.... Luke throws his saber away saying he'll never give in to the dark side... THIS exactly is the difference betweenanakin and his son.... so, in that instance, Luke used his anger to get the edge, was that wrong ?? According to the creator of the saga, yes. The two trilogies are done in a way that both father and son face many of the same choices. In the end Vader chose to go the dark side, and Luke turned away and went back to the light. If it really didn't matter whether he used anger or not while wielding the Force, Luke would have have just gone right on getting really pissed and force choked and chopped up his dad, then chopped up and choked the Emperor, and everything would have been fine. He'd be the same good guy at the end that he always was. And it wouldn't make any sense for the Emperor to try so hard to get Luke to strike him in anger. If doing so would have no affect on Luke, there would be no point in getting him to do so. Since killing the Emperor would be such a good deed, surely Luke would have been just in doing so. So why would the Emperor use that line of thinking to bring him under his sway? If there is no dark side, Luke is never in any real danger. If the Emperor just needed to convince Luke to become his new apprentice, using anger would never come up. He would have likely just trying to convince him to kill vader because he is evil and done all sorts of horrible things, and that the Empire is a just and secure society. But he doesn't. The entire time is spent trying to get Luke to use and feed off his anger. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 even in JA, when you visit Vjun, Kyle Katarn doesnt mind using force lightning on the odd stormie/reborn He doesn't us it in my game, that leads to the dark side! As a side note, Force Lightning is a Sith specific power according to Lucas. But that doesn't matter in the game sense for sure. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 So, dark side powers aint that bad, its how/why are used that counts.... Again, not according to the creator. But regardless, who decides what is a good way to use them? What does that mean exactly? A case can be made for the justice of just about any action. If I use the Force to destroy a planet that has Hitler on it, is that bad? What if it is just a town? Is there a line where destroying a certain number of innocents goes from acceptable to unacceptable? Who decides if a person is evil or not? Can they be killed with the Force if they are? If they are not? Who decides who is evil? Was Anakin being good when he destroyed the Jedi Order because they were evil? They were going to take over the Republic and assassinate the Emperor. Wasn't eliminating them a just cause? I'm just saying that just about everyone does things for reasons which they think are right. So that means that everyone should be able to do whatever they want with the Force and remain who they are. That included destroying planets and killing millions, if they feel the end justifies the means. That was one reason why I found Shatterpoint to be quite enjoyable. It went into the dark side and length and showed that because of the above the dark side is so tempting and it is easy to succomb to it. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Please also consider that the Jedi have fallen by the end of ROTS. Clinging to their stale old ways, they are confused about prophecies and cannot detect the sith right under their nose. You can hardly expect Luke to strive to recreate the old order. He doesnt, he moulds his teachings to fit *current* events and political alignments, all the while trying to stay committed to the force and what being a jedi is all about.... I have no problem with there being change and learning from past mistakes. The OR Jedi Order was flawed in many ways, including (like some would say of the Catholic church) focusing more on the dogma and rules than the meaning and purpose behind them. I have no problem with Luke establishing a new order that is much more liberal in regards to emotions and love and things of that nature. I'm fine with him taking older youngsters for training. I'm fine with teaching that anger itself is not evil and being mad sometimes will not cause you to fall to the dark side. I'm even fine with altering the views of the Force, as long as it does not contradict in the long run what has already been established, especially by the films. I am open to change and progression in the story. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Also consider Prime, that things in any world CHANGE. Change is good, in fact its awesome. What sucks is stagnation. Institutions also change, eg. the catholic church no longer burns you at the stake for being interested in astronomy etc.... What is so special about the SW universe that its tenets are immutable to change ?? The above example is a good one. The Catholic church no longer burning people at the stake for interest in science is a change in the rules governing how it operates. It does not change the basis of the beliefs on which the faith is based. I'm arguing that the new model of the Force is akin to the Catholic Church saying, "We used to believe in God governing what is good and Satan governing what is evil. Now we think that they are in fact the same guy and he doesn't care how the hell you act. Feel free to steal and murder if you think it is a good idea." I think you'll agree that a lot of Catholics would take issue with this sort of change in preaching. Again, I'm fine with change, if it makes sense in terms of the context and established rules of the universe. I'm fine with the majority of changes that Luke has implemented in the Jedi order, and I think most are a good progression story wise. Change is fine, but it still needs to fit into the universe. I just don't think that completely altering the Force and saying that all the theories and methods relating to it in the past, films and EU alike, are flat out wrong is required to keep the ongoing Star Wars EU fresh and entertaining. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Prime, what I am really looking forward to is your characteristic lamenting when the TV series comes out, "OMG itz TREK because the characters talk to each other rather than just shoot/fight/dodge/yell/kiss.." I have no problem with talking, thus my love for the KOTOR series and LOTR books and things like that. Hopefully the discussions in the new books will be entertaining as well. And I'm looking forward to your characteristic lamenting when the TV series comes out, "OMG itz using the old stale viewz of teh Force and doesn't line up with teh NJO! Don't those Jedi no they can all get pissed off and zap all dem stormies with teh just Force Lightning and freedom choke?" Originally posted by Astrotoy7 Dont throw your VCR away Prime, those old VHS tapes you have of the "original-original trilogy" may be your only link back to your true childhood heroes I'll enjoy my DVDs, including the changes in there, thanks. I've never had an issue with the prequels or updated films. In fact, I prefer them. But you knew that before. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 *cmon old fella, give us a hug* Come on man, we are friends. I'm not trying to insult you for your views. I'm only trying to show you why I have mine and disagree with some of the directions the new era EU is taking in regards to the Force. I think it is a good debate, and I like dabating with you. So please don't try and attack me personally. But I know you don't really mean to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 wow. cool post Primeski. In the EU forum there are never any flamewars, just considered debate, like we are exactly doing THIS, was hilarious tho : If I use the Force to destroy a planet that has Hitler on it, is that bad? It reminded me of that cool scene from Clerks, about the needless deaths of the contractors on the Death Star I am really looking forward to the TV series. It is just impossible to emulate 'movie style' pacing into what will be *100* hours of television(over 4 years). The *only* thing attempted in the SW universe that is remotely similar is the NJO, as 21 book story arc It also depends on the writers of course. They havent been announced and GLs role isnt entirely clear apart from being moreso involved at the start and then backing away. One thing that would be cool is if some of the more notable EU authors were involved in some of the storylines.. eg. Luceno, Stover, Stackpole, Anderson, Zahn etc who knows... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 wow. cool post Primeski. In the EU forum there are never any flamewars, just considered debate, like we are exactly doing That's why I come here. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 It reminded me of that cool scene from Clerks, about the needless deaths of the contractors on the Death Star Definitely. That is a great scene in a great film. I guess that is the same as my argument. Crap! Now I've lost the seriousness of my example! Originally posted by Astrotoy7 I am really looking forward to the TV series. It is just impossible to emulate 'movie style' pacing into what will be *100* hours of television(over 4 years). The *only* thing attempted in the SW universe that is remotely similar is the NJO, as 21 book story arc The thing I'll be interested in seeing is whether it will really be one long story arc like 24, much more episodic like Star Trek, or somewhere in between. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 It also depends on the writers of course. They havent been announced and GLs role isnt entirely clear apart from being moreso involved at the start and then backing away. One thing that would be cool is if some of the more notable EU authors were involved in some of the storylines.. eg. Luceno, Stover, Stackpole, Anderson, Zahn etc I'm not a fan of KJA, but the other ones would be good. But I suspect that they won't use any of the novel writers since it is a different medium and no doubt Lucas has his own "crew" in mind. But who knows. Does any of those guys have TV writing credits? Can you imagine the outcry if KJA is the head writer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Just a small querry that hit me seeing Andersons initial which I just have to get cleared up for my own sake: Didn't KJA ghostwrite ANH for GL? (the novel of course ) I seem to recall this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Originally posted by Jan Gaarni Just a small querry that hit me seeing Andersons initial which I just have to get cleared up for my own sake: Didn't KJA ghostwrite ANH for GL? (the novel of course ) I seem to recall this. sorry Jan, but after careful googling, this is not the case, but definitely a fanboy rumour that I too have heard. KJA actually had his first book published in 1988... here's a decent interview linkage When novels are ghostwritten they usually appear with a nom de plume or with the collaborative authors name. I have the 1978 ANH novel, which is simply called "Star Wars - From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" inside it says, "A Novel by George Lucas" The prologue is awesome, and gives a very broad summary of what we saw in the prequel trilogy(The rise of the empire) "Aided and abetted by restless, power hungry individuals, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the people and to restore the glory of the Republic....etc This prologue is quoted as an extract of the "Journal of the Whills" see pic below(excuse poor quality, I just took it on my phone 30secs ago ) mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Sorry for the double postage, but I had to put this up here for the people that doubted Prime's warning about the Dark Nest Trilogy being about use of dark side powers... The cover of the thrid book has recently been revealed, showing Luke in the act of some palpy style zappin IMO = awesome Im really looking forward to reading about how/why Luke makes his decision. In EU especially, he's *never* been one to make decisions lightly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 I'm still hoping that it will all come full circle and in the end there will be a balance of philosophies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil_dude Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 There should be nothing wrong with using anger and hate to get an edge in combat if you can controll it and keep from going to the dark side, look at Mace Windu, he used the dark side to fight with a lightsaber and he was amazing at it. Yet when it came down to it he was wise, kind and calm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Originally posted by lil_dude There should be nothing wrong with using anger and hate to get an edge in combat if you can controll it and keep from going to the dark side, look at Mace Windu, he used the dark side to fight with a lightsaber and he was amazing at it. Yet when it came down to it he was wise, kind and calm. He didn't use the Dark side, he just tapped into his anger, but was strong enough in the light side to resist the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Originally posted by lil_dude There should be nothing wrong with using anger and hate to get an edge in combat if you can controll it and keep from going to the dark side, look at Mace Windu, he used the dark side to fight with a lightsaber and he was amazing at it. Yet when it came down to it he was wise, kind and calm. I think the philosphy now is that there is no dark side or light side. But I'm starting to think that in the end those will return in some form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Originally posted by Prime I think the philosphy now is that there is no dark side or light side. But I'm starting to think that in the end those will return in some form. By the end of the NJO there wasnt really a consensus on that. It was definitey what Vergere had imparted to Jacen and Luke. Although Jacen seemed more in tune with the "unifying force" outlook, Luke was still at odds with it. I think the events of these upcoming books somewhat deals with Luke having to face this question. Which will be an interesting read mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 http://www.randomhouse.com/author/results.pperl?authorid=6868&view=fromauthor Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I have combined Prime's Joiner King Threads into one which will be reserved for discussion for any and all of the Dark Nest Novels. Stickied it for quick access and to prevent multiple threads about similar topic Enjoy ! *resists clicking link to Troy Denning interview* Prime, is it spoilerific ? Since its random houses site, I am guessing no... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 Only in the general sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Yeah, I just recently realized this was released. I've been reading other books... Dune, Ender's series, Bean's series, ect. I'm up to about chapter 10 or so, and it's different. I think it's kinda fast paced, but I may just be used to non-Star Wars style books. I also doubt NJO haters will like this book. We'll see what happens as I finish the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 ....I also doubt NJO haters will like this book.... I can concur... I have been saying for a *very long* time now that SW EU has evolved. The NJO wasnt all about the Yuuzhan Vong, it was about THE JEDI (thats why its called the "New Jedi Order" series!!) For those wanting movie formula characters and novels, those days have passed. Try the comics and prequel era novels for that type of fix As far as the jedi philosophy goes....like all philosophies, they are always in a state of examination and change... I personally like that. I like reading how other force practitioners(Fallanassi, Dathomiri) have also expressed a reluctance towards the new philosophy... it just makes the discussion feel a bit more 'real' (for want of a better term) mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I like the new Jacen, and Queen Mother Tenel Ka owns. I also wonder if I'd have taken to the book as fast as I did if I never read the Ender series (the Hive Queen). All the stuff with the Killiks... is strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 11, 2005 Author Share Posted October 11, 2005 I also doubt NJO haters will like this book.On the contrary, it appears from TJK and TUQ that they are starting to go back to the more traditional view of things, and starting to show the consequences that others have discovered about the old Potentium philosophies, as well as the Jedi's place in the galaxy. Most of us "NJO haters" have been pleased with the direction these books are heading. The new Jedi ways are starting to result in some less than desireable consequences. Personally, I think it would be great for future stories if they continue to turn Jacen into an evil character. I think ultimately they are just discovering for themselves what the ancient Jedi to millenia to learn, and can create their own rules based on that instead of just what the OJO said they should do. We'll have to see how it all turns out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 And I just finished Dark Nest 1, and just got back from the store with Dark nest 2. Had to keep reading. I kinda wanted to see more Jacen... but I believe he has a bigger part in book 2. The Chiss involvement is pretty cool as well. I'd give Joiner King 4/5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Ha! At long last, I return! And holy cow have things changed around here... very different look and feel these days. Dark Nest is probably my favorite thing to happen to the EU since the NJO ended. It's been a blast to get going, though I haven't had a chance to pick up TUQ yet - I'm looking forward to doing so immensely. Most particularly, I'm curious to see how the Jedi, most particularly Luke, continue to deal with the new view of the Force. It's a fascinating debate, and I honestly am of the opinion that there is going to be some reconciliation of the new view with the old. That Jacen is seemingly so close to the edge of the dark side (particularly from what I've heard of TUQ spoilers) is, IMO, further evidence of this - it's going to push Luke and the rest of the Jedi back in the right direction. More to come later, when I'm not so blasted busy! - Keralys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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