Views on Jedi

[SilentScope001]

The Sith and the Jedi are lies.

 

That's right. They both are pretenders to the throne, of representing what is the will of The Force...when The Force just laugh at them, like a curel being.

 

I finally came to the conclusion when studying the Rakatan Empire. Were there Jedi? No. Were there Sith? No. But The Force was used, a lot. The Rakatans were happy, glad, using the Force for what they saw as right. They were destroyed...but they lived a long, long time. Kreia also mentioned that The Force existed before the Jedi and the Sith defined what was DS and LS...and questions, "What was good and evil then?"

 

So, what is The Force then? I heard speculation that it acts as a detached observer, basically modifiying the universe to what it wants to happen, doing so for reasons that is beyond us, to acheive a hidden mean. The Force created the Sith and the Jedi to help carry out its aims...and would destroy it when it wants to. Humans don't use The Force...The Force uses Humans.

 

Think of it as a God, though not as cruel or evil as Kreia describes it. I think The Force has our best interest at heart, and want us to be fine.

 

Prime, your idea of "balance" meaning "Kill off all Dark Side Users!111!", with the Dark Side Users perverting the Force...while I hate the idea, sees it to be more reasonable than having the LS and DS be in balance. Prehaps, The Force hates being used by the DS, and therefore, manlipuates so that the LS destroys the DS, so the Force is able to carry out its will, and continues to contorl the galaxy. And if so, this gives another view of Kreia...Kreia complains and worries that countless lives are wasted so that the Force can achieve "balance"...so, prehaps Kreia is really angry that the LS Force wants to prevent the Sith from contorlling the Force, and that it is this LS Force that causes the Sith to always lose. Kreia may, when fallen, decided that destruction of The Force on is the only way to prevent her teachings that has traces of Sith and DS ideas from being destroyed again.

 

(EDIT: Maybe "balance=no DS Users" isn't really that reasonable. Maybe the LS needs to be conteracted by the DS, otherwise both dies off. But...here lies the important thing I realize:

 

WE DON'T KNOW. We don't have scientific Force-Reading Tools that allow us to know what the Force actually is. A shame, isn't it? So, it all is down to what I feel is right and what is wrong.)

[Vaelastraz]

I don't know about everyone else, but I would draw the line between good and evil. Period, dot. Good=save people from towering building. Evil= Watch people and laugh. Grey= laugh and pull them away from harm. You see, the Dark Side of the Force is evil, but the powers aren't. It's how you use the power of the Force. For instance, let's say you use a "light side" power to heal a wounded Sith while another is about to kill a helpless baby and woman. Or, let's say you use a "dark side" power to shoot lighting out of your hand (though Luke can make his own kind of good lightning) and overload a power conuit, therefor making a door break but causing no harm to living sentients. See what I mean?

 

What exactly is the difference between a "good" ability that kills and a "bad" one?

 

I myself prefer to believe what Kyle says. He says that abilities are not good nor bad, it's how and for what you use them.

 

Sith and Jedi are both extremes... i would really like to see a force sensitive who uses the force as a gift, to accomplish his goals. Like someone would use the "gift" of intelligence. No force philosophy needed.

[shinyjedi]

The force is like water in that it flows where it is able. Like water, it can be bane or boon, and like water, it has no concious will of its own. Perhaps the great mystery of the force lies in the fact that something without conscious will defies the efforts of any and all who attempt to ascribe conscious will to it.

 

Perhaps the Jedi (to carry out the water example) build cisterns, wells, and firehoses, while the Sith build water balloons, and cause destructive floods. The water doesn't control who uses it, nor does it care. The good or evil in water use lies in the intent of the user.

 

One of the most misquoted biblical quotes is to the effect that "money is the root of all evil" More correctly, the passage states that "the lust for money is the root of all evil" The force might be thought of in the same way. The jedi use it as a tool, the Sith lust for it for its own sake and the power it brings them. In neither case is the force itself to blame.

[mivoci1]

The Jedi are nothing than dead to everyone around them and themselfs if Jedi really could feel the Sith's presence why did not began more actively search for the Sith ah what gives being Sith Lord is the best choice Anakin made Jedi always bumblling about "The Cohsen One" and Mace Windu was the first resposinble for the downfall of the Jedi

[Rabish Bini]

The Jedi is in havoc because the code is too strict. They don't let ppl xpress themselves. They are like robots, especially the council. If they had a code that allowed ppl to xpress themselves, than practically no-one will fall to the Dark Side. But no, the Jedi are too near sighted. Bunch of fools. BURN JEDI BURN!

[FerroKnight]

Everyone is talking about how they want to be a Jedi or a regular guy at the start of KOTOR 3. What I'm curious to know is what are people's view of the Jedi. The Disciple says the Jedi are a symbol and they are different. Jolee Bindo says something that people think the Jedi are perfect. What is your take?

 

I think the Jedi are not perfect. If they were, they'd never have civil wars. Plus, I blame the Jedi Council for their own destruction in Ep 3. They're very arrogant.

[Prime]

Prime, your idea of "balance" meaning "Kill off all Dark Side Users!111!", with the Dark Side Users perverting the Force...

Not my idea. Lucas's idea.

 

Don't get on my case if you don't like it.

[SilentScope001]

Not my idea. Lucas's idea.

 

Don't get on my case if you don't like it.

 

Er. Sorry Prime. Yeah, it does sound like George Lucas' idea. Which is why I believe it to be right and canon. I still hate it though.

[shinyjedi]

The Star Wars universe seems to have grown beyond its creator's original vision, as have the Jedi and Sith. They've taken on a life of their own. Note the continuing aliveness of Bobba Fett. Whether or not the Jedi/Sith as we know them today exist as GL originally saw them has lost some relavance.

 

On the other hand, the definition of the term "balance" bears further discussion, as there are many types of balance, You wouldn't want, for instance, to have to kill somebody everytime a child is born just to maintain balance.....

[Clone L68362]

Potentium is the way to go, fo sho.

[Xaris Vynn]

Overall the Jedi have been seen as Defenders of Justice and Peace in the galaxy for thousands of generations. They are a little stiff at time and are always concern with the TASK at hand.

 

The Jedi, The Sith, The Force, and the entire Star Wars Universe is continually evolving.

 

 

When in the beginning of The Star Wars Universe we are told that the Lords of the Sith were Dark Jedi that used the Force combined with the dark magic of the original race called the Sith, and For many millennia we are told there is a light and dark side of the force.

Then we see in the end of the NJO series when Vergere basically tells Jacen forget everything your Uncle has told you and that there is no light or dark side of the Force, it is how and why the being in question uses it. Right after he uses force lighting for the first time.

 

The time that most people seem to be focusing on is the time of the movies and the Jedi Code, which for the most part, gets thrown out the window when Luke has to rebuild the order.

 

They even state in the LotJ books series (the time between RotS and New Hope) that “attachments” will part of the Jedi of the future and that they will be deemed as good.

 

Which depending on how you feel throws out the whole “there is no emotion there is only peace”. No one can say that Luke attachments didn’t play some role concerning some of his decisions and actions, that he has made. Attachments such as his love for Mara Jade or for his other family members. We even see that he does this when he leaves Yoda and his training to save his friends in The Empire Strikes Back.

[sayoko]

well what did you expect from the son of anakin skywalker?

[Vaelastraz]

Well that concept of balance only works if you see the movies as Starwars, without anything before and after it...

Then it's ok if balance is brought to the force by the elimination the Sith lord Palpatine.

[Xaris Vynn]

well what did you expect from the son of anakin skywalker?

 

Was this question for me? if it was the answer would be that.

 

It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.

[Windu Chi]

 

It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.

It is called evolution and discovery.

The Jedi just change in thousand of years of their existance.

Also if I remember correctly from the NJO series, Luke Skywalker change the flaw beliefs in, my opinion.

He change the old beliefs of Jedi of the old republic.

He said, the use of emotions was ok, i.e. spouses or kids.

After he had founded the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV several years after the events of the Battle of Endor.

[Prime]

Potentium is the way to go, fo sho.

Definitely! Just ask Jacen Solo!

 

Oh wait...

[Totenkopf]

Seems to me that the Jedi of the KOTOR era are too detached from the population at large. Given that Jedi and Sith can both be killed by "mundanes", the necessity of the Jedi to preserving an orderly universe is questionable. All the more so due to the ease with which they often fall to the dark side. Bastila's big pic amounted more to the Jedi looking out for themselves than anyone else. Not exactly high minded. From what I can remember of the books post ROTJ storyline, the Jedi seem to have integrated themselves a little better into serving the Republic and not just themselves. But I could be wrong, it's been awhile since I've read them.

[Jediphile]

Was this question for me? if it was the answer would be that.

 

It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.

 

True, but the odd thing is that there is a lot of uncertainty about this even during the KotOR era. For example, Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter. Yes, this was before she became a jedi, but her husband, Andur, was a jedi with wife and daughter before he was killed, at which point Nomi went into apprenticeship while raising her daughter alone. We've never seen anyone question the relationship between Andur and Nomi, and indeed Nomi and Ulic had at least a romantic interest in each other while they were both jedi until he turned to the dark side.

 

And obviously Jolee became married, trained his wife against the wishes of the jedi order, then failed to kill her, when she tried to turn him to the dark side and attempted to murder him, when he refused. She went onto killing other jedi, before dying herself, yet in spite of all this, Jolee was still shown compassion and not punished by the order. He left because he couldn't forgive himself, not because the order threw him out.

 

And yet Bastila tells us in K1, that jedi children must be separated from their parents when still very young, and that they aren't allowed to know love. Not only that, but in K2 we learn from Kreia that Arren Kae was a master who was exiled from the order for having given birth to a child (Brianna).

 

Something doesn't quite add up there, if you ask me.

[Totenkopf]

Perhaps it just goes to show that not everyone in the order agreed with that policy. It's one thing to try to impose a set of rules, another to get ALL to follow. You could think of it, imperfectly of course, as analogous to the question of married priests w/in Catholicism. The ban on marriage is really only centuries old, while the religion itself is measured in millenia. It may again revert back if the number of vocations continues to decline. It's also somewhat muddled by the fact that married clergy from other sects of Christianity can still maintain their marriages and become priests (though unlikely to ever reach bishop or higher) w/in the Church. With people always come complications.

[Clone L68362]

Definitely! Just ask Jacen Solo!

 

Oh wait...

 

Hey, maybe he'll turn out just like Revan...Revan thought only a Sith Lord could save the Republic, but in the end he became even better...

 

Ok, yeah, I doubt Jacen will end up with amnesia and become an even stronger Jedi and kill his apprentice, but still...

[JediMaster12]

I am surprised this thread became ressurected. I have seen the opinions bounced back and forth about the Jedi and the Sith. I admit that the philosophies of both groups are extremes and they do have a flaw. Reading posts, it seems that people forget that the original intention of the Jedi Code was to promote the idea that rationality be the base of decisions. Like anything in longstanding traditions, the original meaning becomes lost and it becomes one of those 'it's the way it has always been done' things. This is seen time and time again throughout history so really the whole arrogance thing, it is reflective of human nature and the time.

 

Light or dark, I am neither. To be frank I can see the shades of grey even more so that I expanded knowledge into studying other cultures.

[Jediphile]

I am surprised this thread became ressurected. I have seen the opinions bounced back and forth about the Jedi and the Sith. I admit that the philosophies of both groups are extremes and they do have a flaw. Reading posts, it seems that people forget that the original intention of the Jedi Code was to promote the idea that rationality be the base of decisions. Like anything in longstanding traditions, the original meaning becomes lost and it becomes one of those 'it's the way it has always been done' things. This is seen time and time again throughout history so really the whole arrogance thing, it is reflective of human nature and the time.

 

Precisely.

 

Or as Obi-Wan would say, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That is exactly where the jedi masters of the KotOR era have gone wrong. Or to quote Trek's Captain Picard: "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute." Same thing.

[jonathan7]

Thing is even during the prequels Jedi were allowed attachments, Aki-Mundi (sp) had a wife and kids and was still a member of the Jedi High Council.

 

I personally don't think that the Jedi Orders teachings are flawed. Much like the Samurai have their code and you had the Chivalric codes in europe for knights. It was the failure of people to follow the code that led to problems over anything else. Personally I understand the no attachment rule, as in the end the reason Anakin had fallen was because of attachment. That said the council was never given the opportunity to allow Skywalker to be married as they were never given the opportunity. I don't think the code is as strict duting the movie era as you lot make out. As Aki-Mundi is an example of a Jedi being allowed to be married, so I think that individual Jedi would be treated as Individuals. As for there failure to spot the Sith Lord, at the end of Episode 2 Yoda says; 'The darkside clouds everything' and as Yoda said the sith are shadowy, in my opinion a problem with too many of the Jedi is their arrogance during the prequels the only exceptions in my opinion are Yoda and Obi-Wan. Yoda did detect that the Sith Lord was in Palpatines inner circle, but one of Plaptines special abilities is being able to disguise his true self. I certainly think Mace Windu was partly responsible fo Anakins fall - treating him harshly and then trying to kill Plapatine. I also think Windu did show a fair bit of arrogance (not that i dont like him, think hes a quality charachter). Finally I think anyone will have problems with any code, I'm a devout Christian but I would never claim that i follow the bible perfectly, form my point of view Jesus was the only person to follow it correctly. So the problems with any code arent the code itself but those following it.

 

Finally the Sith are Evil, and must be stopped; Balance means destroying them, not having an equal number of Force users.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

The thing with the Jedi is that the majority of them are arrogant: they think they're right and no one else is. I think that is the main factor that turns some people away from the Jedi. The Jedi Code is good and all, but the Jedi themselves are the problem. With the Jedi, I'm kinda like those people that have the bumper stickers that say "I have no problem with God. I just don't like his fan club." I have no problem with the Jedi Code, I just don't like the Jedi...well, the majority of the Jedi. Now I'm not sayin the Jedi are terrible and should die because they don't follow the Code to the letter, cuz I'm a Christian and I don't always follow the Bible perfectly. I'm just sayin that they should at least be able to see their mistakes and their arrogance.

[JediMaster12]

jonathan: Aki-Mundi was an exception because the popoulation of his world was very low. It had something to do with birth rates or something like that. I read that off of starwars.com I think.

 

The arrogance is reflective of human nature and the power of tradition. It is very hard to argue with tradition or to get it to change.