Jedi Artifacts My Eye...

[lukeiamyourdad]

Obsideon used random loot, I call that corner cutting, not cut content.

 

Absolutely false. If they wanted they could have put some good items there like they did with the Royal Museum in the Palace on Onderon.

Your claim comes down to "random loot is lazy from the developpers, but certainly not what they meant to offer."

It frankly is a bold statement and absolutely false.

Random loot has more advantages then placed objects. It heavily increases replayability. In TSL, I always start the game with different weapons, armors, etc.

In K1, it was prototyper vibroblade + Echani Armor or Republic Mod Armor every single time.

[Achilles]

LIAYD is spot on here. The only flaw with the random loot generator is that it allows multiple instances of "unique" items. There are several items throughout the game that are statically assigned, so we know that OE recognized that there would be cases where this would be necessary. To say that random loot is lazy is just troll-like behavior.

[The Source]

Example: Castle A is rumored to be loaded with treasure, but when you fight all the monsters and get to the vault in Castle A nothing is there. So what is your reward for going into Castle A, well the expirience of course. Expirience is also a form of "treasure" in this instance, along with whatever the monsters have.

Here is where I disagree and agree. If I fight my way through a nest of monsters, I am going to want something more tangible. I don't know how many times I have played this game and said, "Why the hell did I not get anything after that battle?!". It would appear that this game does not have a reward system that is logical. When I defeate a 'boss' character, I want something that is unique and usefull. I have played Table-Top RPGs for more than ten years, and I have played game RPGs for 20 years. Everytime I defeate an important character, I get both Experience Points and usefull items. Out of all the hundreds of games I have played both Table-Top and PC, TSL is the worse in reward systems. After a player makes their way from beginning to the end of a level, there has to be something to obtain besides XP.

 

When I got to the exchange 'boss' on Telos, there is a locker sitting on a table. You know what is in side? Random Loot... I broke my but running around all of Telos to setup this meeting, and I got XP and random crap.

 

I made my way though the surface of Telos and the Military Base, and when I got to Atris, you know what I got... Nothing... Regardless about the random stuff you find in the Handmaiden rooms, I got nothing for my troubles. Except for a haggling, winning, psycho who has my lightsaber.. BS... I want a way to obtain that lightsaber... I worked my but off to get this far, and wasted valuable time... I better get that saber as a reward..

 

Random loot has more advantages then placed objects. It heavily increases replayability. In TSL, I always start the game with different weapons, armors, etc.

In K1, it was prototyper vibroblade + Echani Armor or Republic Mod Armor every single time.

I can't see why Random Loot would have more advantages than placed objects. I do agree that it adds to the replay value of the game. However, they used the Random Loot in important sections of the game, which I worked long and hard to get to, and found nothing of use.

 

On Telos, I spent time running around, so I can get a meeting with the Exchange Boss. I did tasks for - Luxa, Moza, Czerka, and Telos Security. After I got in to see the Exchange Boss, I decided to kick his but. After the battle, I walked over to the locker, and I got one healing artifact. I spent all that time for one healing artifact, and very little XP. Tell me!? Is that time worth spent... Hell No!... Having a placed reward would have given me a goal to fight for. Besides the fact you get a shuttle ride to the surface..

[BattleDog]

No one cares what Bioware would have done. They didn't make KotOR II, nor will we likely be seeing them for KotOR III. Obsidian makes the KotOR series now, and obsidian didn't have time to create unique items and placeables just to appease fan's lust for a host of artifacts that probably shouldn't be there to begin with, given the evidence against it.

 

LA rushed TSL, htey didn't rush KOTOR. I believe that is is because Bioware refused to rush, or rather they compromised and left out some stuff on XBox version. Obsideon couldn't afford to refuse LA so TSL got rushed, hence the botched random loot, which we all know has duff code that prevents you getty high level robes. That was my point.

 

 

Absolutely false. If they wanted they could have put some good items there like they did with the Royal Museum in the Palace on Onderon.

Your claim comes down to "random loot is lazy from the developpers, but certainly not what they meant to offer."

It frankly is a bold statement and absolutely false.

Random loot has more advantages then placed objects. It heavily increases replayability. In TSL, I always start the game with different weapons, armors, etc.

In K1, it was prototyper vibroblade + Echani Armor or Republic Mod Armor every single time.

 

I don't see how you can say my assertion is totally false, you have no proof it is false. As to replayability, well that might be true, if random loot was done properly. Don't get my wrong, I like random loot, in principle its the way it was done that was lazy.

 

Lets take your K1 situation and turn it on its head, what if after doing those puzzles and opening those containers instead of some reasonable armour you got two medpacs and a computer spike? I don't know about you but I'd feel cheated, thats how TSL made me feel.

 

Achilles: I think I've already covered what you said. There are other problems with random loot, namely that it's not context specific, you find weird stuff in weird places. Like a Jedi robe in a survival kit in the Telos Military Base.

 

MacLeodCorp: Yes, exactly, I agree totally.

[Darth InSidious]

The only thing cut from the sublevel was (and any member of Team Gizka around, CMIIW) a character called Kaevee, who was cut early on. You want evidence, BattleDog? Fine. D/L KotOR Tool and search the game files yourself. If you won't trust modders who have been through the files, you don't believe the dialogue quoted constitutes proof, perhaps you'd like us to see if we can get God to give us a written affidavit? Or will that only be proof if it proves you right? I am a critic of TSL, heck I really don't like the game, but even I acknowledge that you are talking A-grade gibberish.

 

Also, FYI, Telos is the backup for Dantooine. It's quite clearly stated in the dialogues several times, and it makes sense, since no-one would look for an academy on a dead world. Or did the Council Chamber in the Polar Academy seem not a tad out of place for a water recycling-whatever the place was?

[RedHawke]

Here is where I disagree and agree. If I fight my way through a nest of monsters, I am going to want something more tangible.

Sorry Mac, for that is the way of some RPG's...

 

Not every reward is gained at the end of the journey, sometimes the reward is the journey itself.

 

That is TSL's style compared to KotOR I wich was a far more transparent and spoon-fed storyline.

 

When I defeate a 'boss' character, I want something that is unique and usefull. I have played Table-Top RPGs for more than ten years, and I have played game RPGs for 20 years. Everytime I defeate an important character, I get both Experience Points and usefull items. Out of all the hundreds of games I have played both Table-Top and PC, TSL is the worse in reward systems. After a player makes their way from beginning to the end of a level, there has to be something to obtain besides XP.

I have over 20 years RPG expirience as well, including design. Your statements are the classic hallmark of the "Monty Haul" player type, you expect some glorious reward at the end of a fight or story point and I'm sorry but sometimes this just isn't so.

 

The classic D&D/AD&D RPG's use a random treasure system, D20 is based off these systems, so you very well could fight through the horde of the abyss and come away with a few coins, and some minor item rubbish, the XP from the fights being the only real reward, so OE did a fine job with what they had.

 

The problem isn't in the random loot script, the problem is in the players expectations.

 

Do I personally like to get shiny objects? Heck yeah! But I never expect them.

 

I can't see why Random Loot would have more advantages than placed objects. I do agree that it adds to the replay value of the game.

KotOR I and it's fixed item system ends up being go here to get X item, that part always made me lose enthusiasm... fast.

[90SK]

I made my way though the surface of Telos and the Military Base, and when I got to Atris, you know what I got... Nothing... Regardless about the random stuff you find in the Handmaiden rooms, I got nothing for my troubles. Except for a haggling, winning, psycho who has my lightsaber.. BS... I want a way to obtain that lightsaber... I worked my but off to get this far, and wasted valuable time... I better get that saber as a reward..

 

It seems you're disregarding the fact that the Polar Academy is a large part of the storyline. Once I got there, I had a very long and cinematic conversation with Atris, which was far more rewarding than some high level trinket. It wouldn't really even make sense: why would they leave powerful robes or armors lying around in unlocked footlockers?

 

The fact that the story is moving along is often a reward used in situations like the ones you listed. When I defeated Slusk, I was too caught up in being excited about getting to the surface to worry about the lack of armor, robes, or whatever. While it's nice to get special items from bosses, the other values they carry shouldn't be ignored.

[Emperor Devon]

LA rushed TSL, htey didn't rush KOTOR. I believe that is is because Bioware refused to rush, or rather they compromised and left out some stuff on XBox version. Obsideon couldn't afford to refuse LA so TSL got rushed, hence the botched random loot, which we all know has duff code that prevents you getty high level robes. That was my point.

 

The release date for KotOR was actually extended, but that's beside the point. The random loot system was implemented due to time constraints? I find that unlikely. If I wanted to, I could probably give assigned items to every placeable and NPC throughout the game in a few days, and Obsidian had a whole team of people working on TSL for many months. Surely they were not so hard pressed that they couldn't spare a day or two?

 

I don't see how you can say my assertion is totally false, you have no proof it is false.

 

You had no proof your previous statement was true. As for LIAYD's statement, I think it was rather obvious.

 

As to replayability, well that might be true, if random loot was done properly. Don't get my wrong, I like random loot, in principle its the way it was done that was lazy.

 

It is a very simple matter to implement placeables throughout the game... If the devs were too lazy to even do that, I'm surprised that they even got hired by LA.

 

you find weird stuff in weird places.

 

A bit of a side effect, but if you think about it, most of the items found throughout both KotOR games are in odd places. A computer spike used for hacking into systems is in a normal apartment? Merchants selling lethal weapons to people who don't even have permits?

 

I made my way though the surface of Telos and the Military Base, and when I got to Atris, you know what I got... Nothing... Regardless about the random stuff you find in the Handmaiden rooms, I got nothing for my troubles. Except for a haggling, winning, psycho who has my lightsaber.. BS... I want a way to obtain that lightsaber... I worked my but off to get this far, and wasted valuable time... I better get that saber as a reward..

 

I know exactly what you mean. Killing Malak was one of the worst experiences I've ever had in a video game. All I get is some stupid ending of Revan going off to conquer the galaxy, and not a single medpac or unlockable feature!

[Melly]

I made my way though the surface of Telos and the Military Base, and when I got to Atris, you know what I got... Nothing... Regardless about the random stuff you find in the Handmaiden rooms, I got nothing for my troubles. Except for a haggling, winning, psycho who has my lightsaber.. BS... I want a way to obtain that lightsaber... I worked my but off to get this far, and wasted valuable time... I better get that saber as a reward..

 

I wouldn't exactly call getting the Ebon Hawk back as "nothing".

[Darth InSidious]

What, you expect the Handmaidens and Atris to leave valuable stuff lying about? They may be isolated, but they're not daft! At least....not that daft...

[BattleDog]

Well I made apost last night but the forum ate it. So in brief:

 

1. Again, I'm not expect in great stuff, maybe just a couple of robes, an upgrade powercell and a couple of crystals. I just think that sealed Jedi Enclaves, and part of it was sealed, should have Jedi stuff in, not medpacs.

 

2. The idea that this stuff is "valuable" is a bit off, I mean level one upgrades for lighsabres are quite easy to make. I don't think Atris, Vrook or the Sith would bother picking up basic robes and stuff, it'd just be easier to make new ones.

 

3. Again, I've said this before but I LIKE random loot but they could have divided the system up and made it context specific. For example:

 

0 = General merchandise.

 

1 = Weapons.

 

2 = Jedi stuff.

 

Etc. Then you just assign a value to each container, it's not that hard to code really and it would mean that every time you opened a container in a workshop you got techie stuff, rather than medpacs.

 

As for as "The only thing cut from the sublevel..." My gripe isn't with the sublevel, it's with the loot system. The sublevel is just symptematic. We know the loot system is broken because you NEVER get high level robes.

 

As to time, well they didn't even script the final scene between GO-TO and the Remote. I'd say time was very tight.

[Achilles]

^^^^

Pretty sure that's almost exactly what they did, except they broke it out even more than that (high, med, low, rare, etc). At least that what I've observed by looking at the scripts and the containers in some of the various modules.

 

Also, IIRC they do have some Jedi item containers in that sealed room, however the loot (as per usual) is random (I usually get jedi belts and/or head gear and/or jedi armor). *shrugs*

 

EDIT: btw, since the robe system cuts off at 18 AND the Master robe happens to be the cutoff AND that 19 and 20 are statically placed , I think you'd be better off assuming that the jedi robe looting was modified intentionally by the devs rather than "broken".

 

AND...IIRC, they did script the final cutscene with G0-T0 but had to scrap it when they ditched the droid planet.

 

If I can make an observation: for someone so opinionated about this game, you sure don't seem to know a whole lot about it. Doesn't look good....

[BattleDog]

Well unfortunately I can't get KOTOR Tool to work, so I can't go into the guts of the game personally. You know I really think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick about this whole thing. I've just been trying to air my opinion this whole time and you all seem to think that I'm making some big unilateral statement.

[Achilles]

I certainly do hope that you are able to get KT working correctly. I am very much looking forward to your informed reply to the points that I made above

[StaffSaberist]

Do I wish there was cooler stuff in the sublevels? Yes! But the problem with that is that it would unbakance the game in your favor (as if that wasn't done already) and I'm sure it would be nice to loot the three Jedi-killed corpses, maybe get a nice gun, but that would make the leigreks too easy to kill. And if you can use powerful stuff to kill the leigreks, why couldn't the people who died use them to, you know, not die? Keep in mind they died for a reason. The most obvious of those reasons would be that they weren't heavily enough armed to survive down there.

 

Also, salvagers may have gotten what few good weapons that were down there, at least near the opening. Also, those collapsed roof places may have crushed artifacts, and finally... why would you keep nice stuff like that in your basement?

[Gray_Master]

Correct me if I'm wrong but a...I thought Atris took all the good stuff....I mean the Disciple tells you that some Jedi was collecting all the stuff down there...I guess many people think that to be Vrook but it was Atris who was after all the Jedi artifacts to keep them........you really can't say "the people gossiped about what was really down there" remember this is a video game they didn't gossip at all..they told the Exile what the devs made them say ~_^

 

Fact of the matter is the salvagers didn't loot the sub-lvls Atris did to "protect" the Jedi artifacts that we never find.

[DarthVandar205]

Another thing to consider is that its obvious some people have been into the sublevel before because many of the rooms, I think even some of the sealed ones have "open" containers which have already been looted so somebody probably already took the good stuff. Just because some rooms were sealed, it doesnt mean that Jedi couldnt have unlocked the rooms, gone in, took the loot and then locked them again.

[StaffSaberist]

Which would allow the leigreks to come back in force. In fact... HEY! You guys know that one hallway that swarms with about 6 leigreks at a time if you aren't careful? Well, the Jedi Vrook probably went through there, and the leigreks were pissed, so they came back in force, and just hung out there waiting for somebody. Makes sense to me.

[Gray_Master]

I'll set aside my feelings that they are there because the devs put them there and that the discusion of thoughtful action by these programs is even possible...if that were the case wouldn't they be around the door Jorron (sp?) is in as he is the most recent disturbance down there?

 

 

Don't get me wrong...it's fun to read behind the story, I do it all the time......like Vrook really was cought because he was out numbered not because he wanted to be. He just made up his story cause he was too proud to admit he was cought...... but in the end, all these are just programs doing what they were made to do...no thought or anticapation just the action the devs made for them.

[DarthVandar205]

Yeah Vrook never meant to get caught, he just saw an opportunity arise when he did and being the stubborn old jedi master he is just told the exile that was his plan all along so he wouldnt have to admit defeat. Im surprised Vrook wasnt smart enough to know that diplomacy wasnt gonna work against the scum that caught him. Only thing that works well against them is a really sharp vibroblade. Either way though he isnt happy with how you handle the situation. If you rescue him, he gets mad, if you leave him there, he eventually gets away and still gets mad. Theres just no pleasing him.

[StaffSaberist]

No, and another thing I dislike about Vrook is on the trial holo, he sounds like a robot! "Do-you-know-why-we-have-called-you-here" Wierd.

[DarthVandar205]

No, and another thing I dislike about Vrook is on the trial holo, he sounds like a robot! "Do-you-know-why-we-have-called-you-here" Wierd.

 

I think hes just trying to be serious and get the exile to realize the seriousness of the situation but yah he does sound alot like a robot.

[GuitarNProgress]

I'll have to agree with the Skye on this one. I don't see why people are whining over weapons whenever they should actually be focusing on the entire concern of roleplaying: player development. Leveling, staying true to a certain point of view (which can be dynamic given the circumstances), and progressing the story. People that want to hoard all the items are just that, item collectors.

 

Also, you *wouldn't* find anything based on the idea that everyone that had already been there before you. Sure, the Sith could make more robes. Isn't it much easier just to pick them up though? And even if they decided not to, they are wanting to rid the galaxy of Jedi, right? They'd collect it all and destroy it.

 

Finally, I find it funny that anyone could even consider any part of the sub-level "sealed." Ok, the exile at the lowest is maybe a third of his max. Yet, he still manages to get into the sealed portions. Now, Malak, Vrook, and everyone else being that much stronger or even of equivalency could've done the same exact thing. How'd you unseal it? You used your lightsabre or a basic puzzle? Oh me.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Another thing left out that could explain everything: Malak destroyed the temple, but I doubt he would leave a bunch of artifacts lying around. He almost certainly sent down Sith to take jedi for the SF, get some artifacts, and kill everyone nearby. He might've even gone down there himself and poked around. And maybe fragile things like holocrons and other artifacts got crushed by falling ceilings and big explosions. Or are Jedi buildings laser-bullet proof?

 

Since we're on speculaton, this is the closest I can agree with.

Obviously, Malak and the sith looted and pillaged after the bombardment.

He was looking for Bastila. At not finding her, he destroys the enclave, takes slaves, artifacts, whatever might be of use, then sets out after her again.

(Perhaps even using the death of the jedi as a force ripple to get her attention.)

[Darth InSidious]

According to the plot, what Atris/Vrook/the Sith didn't take, the salvagers nicked.

 

Oh, and BattleDog, you certainly seemed to be saying earlier that you thought a lot had been cut from the sublevel, based, primarily AFAIK, on your opinion, and had been denying what you were told by RedHawke, etc. I wasn't saying you had a problem with the sublevel, I was saying you seemed to think there was cut content where there wasn't