Are Arren Kae and Kreia the same person?

[igyman]

I see I've stirred up the hive with that one post. This will be my last saying on the matter, I simply feel the need to give one last clarification on my position.

First of all, I'm sorry if I angered anyone, I never wanted to do that, nor did I want to tell anyone what they can and can't do, I'm not a moderator and that's not something I have the right to do. The point of that post that annoyed you so much was this:

- This is a discussion on whether Kreia could or couldn't be Kae.

- Both those who think she could and those who think she couldn't have posted arguments for their opinion.

- Neither of those arguments have made anyone change their mind about the matter.

- The end goal of this (or any other) discussion is to sway the others to your side, to convince them that they are wrong and you are right. If current arguments haven't done this, new arguments should be found and presented. This is what I meant by ''repeating the existing arguments will lead nowhere''.

 

Like I said this is the last you'll hear from me on this matter, any further posts from me will be on topic - comments on the posted arguments.

[Phantom Joker]

At the risk of prodding rancors with a stun stick...

 

My own gut feeling is that this is a case where a character (well, characters, actually...) take on a life of their own quite outside the intention of the authors. But in the end, really, who knows other than the guys that wrote it? Has anyone heard their take on it?

[The Source]

I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

[Nema_Suneimi]

I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

 

Revan asked Kae to fight, and it was Yusannis who followed her.

[Jediphile]

- This is a discussion on whether Kreia could or couldn't be Kae.

- Both those who think she could and those who think she couldn't have posted arguments for their opinion.

- Neither of those arguments have made anyone change their mind about the matter.[/Quote]

 

Actually, I was very much against the idea early on, until I realised that this was because I didn't want Kreia to be Brianna's mother, not because it didn't make sense, but because the idea was disturbing somehow. And obviously that is never a good reason to dismiss a theory, so I changed my mind.

 

- The end goal of this (or any other) discussion is to sway the others to your side, to convince them that they are wrong and you are right. If current arguments haven't done this, new arguments should be found and presented. This is what I meant by ''repeating the existing arguments will lead nowhere''.

 

On principle I can't agree with that, since it seems to confrontational and black-and-white, as if one side must be entirely correct and the other entirely wrong. Things are rarely that clear cut, and although Kreia obviously either is or isn't Kae, I don't see that one side must lose completely for a compromise to be reached.

[Jediphile]

I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

 

Kae was exiled, presumably for having a child. She then joined to fight in the Mandalorian Wars along with Yusanis (Brianna's father). Kae is said to have died during the wars, though her body was never recovered (but her robes were - Brianna has them).

 

Yusanis survived the war, but was changed after it. He stopped being a general/soldier and entered politics instead. When Revan turned to the dark side, Yusanis stood against him, and Revan killed Yusanis.

[The Sith'ari]

Revanchow, you didn't need to bump this thread...

 

What do you mean by I "bumped" this thread? I was just adding a comment as to why they might be the same person.

[Clone L68362]

If you mean what does "bump" mean, it's posting in order to bring a topic to the top. It's actually a no-no here, so I guess I should say you didn't need to post in this thread. It's 4 months old, and neither side has enough evidence to continue the discussion.

[Jediphile]

If you mean what does "bump" mean, it's posting in order to bring a topic to the top. It's actually a no-no here, so I guess I should say you didn't need to post in this thread. It's 4 months old, and neither side has enough evidence to continue the discussion.

 

With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

[The Sith'ari]

With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

 

I'm new here and that was the first time I saw that thread and I had a thought and naturally I wanted to add it here. I didn't know there is such a rule... sorry for that. However, it's not like someone has to has some evidence to post a comment here, is it? And I think though many here have been playing kotor for long, some people might have just learnt of the game recently and many threads here are new to them, I just think they are also entitled the right to join the discussion.

 

And btw, I'm a she.

[igyman]

With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

 

There is a possibility, if you have new evidence that you want to share with us. Repeating old stuff won't do what you think it will. Clone L68362 and I have been here a little longer than you, so trust us on that one, OK?

 

I'm new here and that was the first time I saw that thread and I had a thought and naturally I wanted to add it here. I didn't know there is such a rule... sorry for that. However, it's not like someone has to has some evidence to post a comment here, is it? And I think though many here have been playing kotor for long, some people might have just learnt of the game recently and many threads here are new to them, I just think they are also entitled the right to join the discussion.

 

Actually it is, at least for this type of discussion. You are, of course, entitled to join a discussion, but you should have some argument to defend your position in it.

[Beast-Thrasher]

I think that Kreia might infact be Kae, for me, these are the hints a picked up on.

 

When you get Brianna and Kreia says not to mate with that one and seems to not like Brianna too much, perhaps after Kae(Kreia) got pregnant with her and gave birth and she was exiled and then went to the DS and as we learn near the end Kreia hates both the Jedi(Light) and the Sith(DS) so perhaps she disliked Brianna as she may of been a small part in Kae fall, that's one of the things I thought of.

 

 

Then the whole Kae was Revan's first Master and then you talk to Kreia and she says that she was his first Master and that both had him as a Padawan.

 

When you talk to Brianna and she says her mother was a famed Jedi Guardian(remember this) When the Exile goes into the caves and then the tomb, near the end you find Kreia and she says "you have revisited the dark momemts of your past." Well that made me think because Kreia holds a blue Lightsaber in that part, even if you give her a green lightsbar before Korrriban she still has blue. So perhaps it showed the dark moments of Kreia's past as well a blue Lightsaber is usually recognized by being a Guardian which was what Kae was.

 

So I do think Kae and Kreia are the same, the reason they did not adresse it in the game was maybe the developpers wanted just some skimpy information on the subject so we could talk about it, also remember they had to cut stuff out, perhaps the whole Kreia and Brianna thing was a big thing but didn't play in the main story so they cut it out, there's a million and one reasons why or whatever but I've said my bit.

[Melly]

Kae was exiled, presumably for having a child.

 

I've wondered of late if Kae was exiled, not because she had a child, but because of the affair that came along with it- I would imagine that that is not something the Order would smile upon- as Brianna says that her father was pledged to another that was not her mother.

[Jediphile]

Well, they do say that affair was a scandal, so maybe the order did exile her for that reason.

 

But to me it always seemed unlikely, since the order accepted Jolee's marriage. Jolee's "crime" was far greater than Kae's, yet he was forgiven for it. That always seemed like a double standard to me, which is why I don't think the reason for Kae's exile is the one Kreia tells us, and which then becomes another clue suggesting that Kreia just might be Kae herself...

[RobQel-Droma]

There is a possibility, if you have new evidence that you want to share with us. Repeating old stuff won't do what you think it will. Clone L68362 and I have been here a little longer than you, so trust us on that one, OK?

 

Well, I have been here much much longer than both of you, so trust me on this one, OK? There isn't anything wrong with discussing and pointing out clues in the story that might fit in with either side. I personally believe you are wrong when you say that we have exhausted every discussion point (as we have gone along, people have brought up quotes, etc.). And we have convinced some people - not totally, of course - like Jediphile, who said right out in the open that he has taken a bit different stance from not wanting to believe in it to leaning toward or mostly believing in it. Hai Wan seemed to disbelieve it also, but upon realizing that it had been said that Kae was Revan's master, took up an undecided stance, as far as I know.

 

Even if we aren't currently convincing anyone else, there are people who don't seem to get all of what we are saying and believe we are doing this on the basis of "they were both Revan's master, and their names sound alike...." at which they need to be told. You saw that with, *cough*, Shem, I think, earlier in this thread.

 

You are, of course, entitled to join a discussion, but you should have some argument to defend your position in it.

 

Revanchow has the right to join in the discussion. True, the thread was a bit old, but he simply wanted to voice his opinion. After all, I saw many other people who didn't have any argument either - but as I remembered, revanchow did have something to add.

 

BTW, the reason I got so annoyed earlier at you, was because the fact you sounded like you were a moderator... which you, of course, addressed in an earlier post.

 

IMO this is one of many debates where one can take five different positions.

 

1) Kreia and Arren Kae are not the same person.

2) Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.

3) Undecided if Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.

a) undecided but leaning towards (1)

b) undecided but leaning towards (2)

c) completely undecided

 

As for myself I'm 3b. I don't understand how anyone can be (1) or (2) if they're basing their position on the available data. All the evidence for Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person is circumstantial at best but such evidence does introduce the possibility that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However the question can't be definitively answered without further factual evidence provided by an authoritative source e.g. future KotOR game, LL authorized book, or comic series.

 

Unfortunately, Hai Wan, many people tend to not just take a "3b" point, but a "1b" point, which irritates me; several people, simply because they don't want to believe it, don't, while also disregarding anything against their point of view, and having nothing for it. It's very frustrating to people who are trying to have a reasonable debate about it, because people let their preferences of the way it "should" be interfere with facts. (By "facts", I'm not saying that Arren is Kreia, I'm just talking generally about an illogical stance people take; and not just in this thread, either, I've had to deal with it elsewhere).

 

For instance, Shem comes to mind; not to bash on him, but he was one of the main debaters that was on the extreme 1 side. In fact, he hasn't changed at all.

 

Also, to add to the original discussion: If I remember, someone said something about a quote of Mical in which he says "even the mantle of the dark side cannot hide you", or something to that effect. Granted, he could be talking about "Darth Traya", but why would that be something mysterious and secret? Kreia basically tells you herself that she once was Darth Traya, so for that, the quote wouldn't make any sense, would it? Why would a "mantle of the dark side" hide a known-to-be former

Sith Lord?

 

Someone also mentioned the quote by Kreia that tells the PC not to "mate" with Brianna. Unfortunately, I don't remember this - I do remember her telling me not to "mate/sleep" with Visas, because "children would be difficult" or something like that. However, I might be wrong... does someone have a pic or quote that can confirm that, just in case?

[jonathan7]

Rob, i agree with alot of what you are saying, but as someone who is completly undecided on if this matter is true or not, why does shem have to change his position, as someone who is undecided neither argument has disproved the other, or compelled me to believe either side is right or wrong.

 

ive also gotta say iggyman et al were a bit harsh on ravenchow, she has a right to post here, and if it offends you that much that this topic is back why not ignore the topic? finally - why would a noob bump?

[Char Ell]

Someone also mentioned the quote by Kreia that tells the PC not to "mate" with Brianna.

Here is what I found in kreia.dlg

KREIA: Before you continue questioning me, I hope your thoughts in the matter concerning this servant of Atris are clear.

Spend time with her if you must - but recognize where your true loyalties lie - to the galaxy and yourself.

 

EXILE: My feelings for her are none of your concern.

 

KREIA: Ah, so then perhaps I was mistaken in my judgment.

Never have you wondered what it would mean in the Echani rituals if the two of you sparred and fought - and you won, completely and utterly?

If perhaps she would give in, surrender herself to you?

Few are the thoughts that can hide in the shadows of your mind, exile... and such passions are not strength, but erosion.

That's about the extent of it. Not exactly a clear and forthright statement like her one to the Exile about the importance of the Exile not mating with Visas. I didn't see anything else in Kreia's dialogue that referred to a sexual relationship between the Exile and Brianna.

 

- posted by: The LF Member Formerly Known As Hai Wan

[*bAsTiLaJeEdAi*]

Whoa I never thought of that possibility.

I think it would be cool, cause it adds a whole new twist.But if the exile hooked up with the Handmaiden then he would have Kreia as a mother in law. Wonder if he thought of THAT!

[The Sith'ari]

@Rob and Jonathan Thanks for the support, I did feel a bit crushed as I really had something to add about Kreia and Brianna, though I know how trivial that might be.

 

But iggyman doesn't have to feel bad either, maybe you're just a nervous soul

[DarthScribble]

Ok, so I am new, so be gentle...

 

I came to this thread after playing through TSL 2xs, once light and once dark, both as a male PC. My point? I had a hunch there was something to the Kae=Kreia=Darth Traya thing long before I came here, and I just wanted to see what other people were thinking. I learned some new stuff, and got some things confirmed. I am still, however, not totally decided, as I feel we are all supposed to be (basically because game developers/writers aren't nearly as clever as we all like to think they are--knowing several and being one myself as my evidence).

 

I do have a couple questions, however...

1. Why would there be a Trayus Academy on Malachor V after the whole planet was destroyed?

b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?

c. Isn't it possible that (whoever she really is) Traya built/rebuilt this academy after the destruction of Malachor V? (thus placing the time line for Kreia/Kae more logically together?)

 

2. Doesn't Kreia only seem to remark/comment on things that she has experienced or familiar with (since the dark side is passion-driven, and even though she is supposed to be neutral, she is rather 'dark' in her attitude and comments)?

a. More specifically, I am thinking of the Echani 'mating ritual' of sparring. If she was Kae at one time, and hooked up with Yusanis (Echani, right?), that is likely how it all started--or more likely, the only way it could have--so she is speaking from experience, if not only to keep the Exile focussed on his mission and not the 'spoils of war'.

b. plus, IF this were the case, she may resent Brianna as a lightsider for various reasons. (possibly 'caused' her fall, represents a strong allegiance one way or the other for either Kreia/Traya or embodied in herself, and also could influence the Exile in the now)

 

3. Also, I have noted the cheeky movie references throughout TSL game (and, no unfortunately, I have not been able to play KotOR yet, so I may be out on some info), but let's face it. The SW cannonical series (movies I-VI) would seem to be poorly written in places, but upon scrutiny, are genious in their simplicity and logic within the bounds of a fantasy setting. My point? The similarities are amuck. Lines dropped and repeated, characters used, character architypes, etc. So what?

a. Aniken was thought deceased by Luke as stated by the people he trusted the most (Obi-wan and his Uncle Owen)

b. This was 'true'...from a certain point of view. (More Jedi half truths based on perception of the situation)

c. From a Jedi POV, Aniken did 'die' even as Darth Vader was born--but that point in between (actually, Jediphile's avatar gave me the idea--to see Aniken with both a blue and red saber would suggest he was teetering in the balance, trying to decide which side he would champion), when the decision had not been made yet, he really did not have a title. In fact, he would say at one point in the prequils that he deserved the title Master and was Obi-wan's (and most other Master's) better, but the Councel had broken their own rules (again!) to allow him to be on the councel (as a political move!) and remain the rank of Knight. (I'm getting there...)

d. So the question remains, in a time before solid 'rules' were in place (mostly), and the Councel seemed to be loosing control as well as redefining who and what the Jedi where, how difficult (easy) would it be for one jaded, powerful, and resourcefully manipulative woman to pull the strings of the government, and indeed the galaxy (Kreia did mention that she had held the galaxy by the throat at one time, yes?)?

 

I realize this doesn't 'solve' the issue, but it does, IMO add layers to Traya/Kreia and possibly Arren Kae. I'm mostly asking if I am skewed in my thinking, and well, let's face it, I love this stuff.

I was all over the Syfo-dias thing when it hit, and frankly, I still believe it was changed in mid-stream b/c people figured it out, but that's a creator's perogative I suppose. This topic may be a victim to the same series of rewrites and oversights that some other 'holes' in the SW Universe suffer from, but honestly, I think the unknown and mysterious stuff is what makes it tick.

Ok, have at me.

[Clone L68362]

@Rob and Jonathan Thanks for the support, I did feel a bit crushed as I really had something to add about Kreia and Brianna, though I know how trivial that might be.

 

But iggyman doesn't have to feel bad either, maybe you're just a nervous soul

 

So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean.

 

But don't worry it's not like I'm serious...I just thought there was nothing further to add to the thread. But if the discussion must go on...

 

I'm sure there's lots of dialogue we haven't uncovered yet, but one thing that might give us a clue is anything about Yusanis and Revan. Since Revan killed him, Kreia might harbor some...anger...towards him. But since I'm not sure Yusanis is mentioned anywhere but in a few lines with the Handmaiden, I doubt we'll be able to figure out anything from that.

[The Sith'ari]

So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean.

 

Oh no, I just forgot about you since you weren't mentioned in Rob's post. You shouldn't feel bad either- we're all supposed to have fun here discussing KotOR.

[RobQel-Droma]

Rob, i agree with alot of what you are saying, but as someone who is completly undecided on if this matter is true or not, why does shem have to change his position, as someone who is undecided neither argument has disproved the other, or compelled me to believe either side is right or wrong.

 

Sorry, I might have given you the wrong impression. Here is my quote:

 

For instance, Shem comes to mind; not to bash on him, but he was one of the main debaters that was on the extreme 1 side. In fact, he hasn't changed at all.

 

I did not mean that Shem had to change his position by what I said, you might have misunderstood me. I just mentioned him because he was dead set against it, a "1" person according to Hai Wa- I mean cutmeister. Argh, I hate that.

 

So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean.

 

He probably is. In fact, I'll make you feel bad for him.

 

 

How's that?

 

Anyways, I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad - just trying to point some things out, that's all.

 

b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?

 

Unkown, as far as I know. In fact, it might be the other way around; I'm pretty sure that Kreia found the Trayus Academy, as opposed to founding it.

[Jediphile]

Ok, so I am new, so be gentle...

1. Why would there be a Trayus Academy on Malachor V after the whole planet was destroyed?

b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?

c. Isn't it possible that (whoever she really is) Traya built/rebuilt this academy after the destruction of Malachor V? (thus placing the time line for Kreia/Kae more logically together?)

 

1a. Malachor V wasn't totally destroyed.

1b. Actually I think it's the other way around - she took her name from the academy and used the female form of "Trayus", which is then "Traya" (in latin).

1c. Nope, the academy was there long before that. Note that Revan studied the ancient Sith there. The Trayus Academy is where Revan learned of the threat of the true Sith. Kreia "took it over" after Revan had left.

 

See more here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Trayus_Academy

 

2. Doesn't Kreia only seem to remark/comment on things that she has experienced or familiar with (since the dark side is passion-driven, and even though she is supposed to be neutral, she is rather 'dark' in her attitude and comments)?

a. More specifically, I am thinking of the Echani 'mating ritual' of sparring. If she was Kae at one time, and hooked up with Yusanis (Echani, right?), that is likely how it all started--or more likely, the only way it could have--so she is speaking from experience, if not only to keep the Exile focussed on his mission and not the 'spoils of war'.

b. plus, IF this were the case, she may resent Brianna as a lightsider for various reasons. (possibly 'caused' her fall, represents a strong allegiance one way or the other for either Kreia/Traya or embodied in herself, and also could influence the Exile in the now)

 

That's a difficult one to answer, because we just don't know Kreia's motives here. If she is indeed Kae, then this may be the last remnants of motherly concern, especially given what she knows she will have to put the exile through for the sake of her own agenda, and which she doesn't want her daughter to be hurt by. I must say that that I never felt she hated Brianna, although she does seem to want to give that impression. She clearly doesn't like Visas or Mical, though. I also find it interesting how she bascially plants the idea of training Brianna as a jedi in the exile's head by telling him that he shouldn't do so. What, this was a slip-of-the-tongue? By Kriea ?!? Right, tell me another...

 

3. Also, I have noted the cheeky movie references throughout TSL game (and, no unfortunately, I have not been able to play KotOR yet, so I may be out on some info), but let's face it. The SW cannonical series (movies I-VI) would seem to be poorly written in places, but upon scrutiny, are genious in their simplicity and logic within the bounds of a fantasy setting. My point? The similarities are amuck. Lines dropped and repeated, characters used, character architypes, etc. So what?

a. Aniken was thought deceased by Luke as stated by the people he trusted the most (Obi-wan and his Uncle Owen)

b. This was 'true'...from a certain point of view. (More Jedi half truths based on perception of the situation)

c. From a Jedi POV, Aniken did 'die' even as Darth Vader was born--but that point in between (actually, Jediphile's avatar gave me the idea--to see Aniken with both a blue and red saber would suggest he was teetering in the balance, trying to decide which side he would champion), when the decision had not been made yet, he really did not have a title. In fact, he would say at one point in the prequils that he deserved the title Master and was Obi-wan's (and most other Master's) better, but the Councel had broken their own rules (again!) to allow him to be on the councel (as a political move!) and remain the rank of Knight. (I'm getting there...)

d. So the question remains, in a time before solid 'rules' were in place (mostly), and the Councel seemed to be loosing control as well as redefining who and what the Jedi where, how difficult (easy) would it be for one jaded, powerful, and resourcefully manipulative woman to pull the strings of the government, and indeed the galaxy (Kreia did mention that she had held the galaxy by the throat at one time, yes?)?

 

I realize this doesn't 'solve' the issue, but it does, IMO add layers to Traya/Kreia and possibly Arren Kae. I'm mostly asking if I am skewed in my thinking, and well, let's face it, I love this stuff.

I was all over the Syfo-dias thing when it hit, and frankly, I still believe it was changed in mid-stream b/c people figured it out, but that's a creator's perogative I suppose. This topic may be a victim to the same series of rewrites and oversights that some other 'holes' in the SW Universe suffer from, but honestly, I think the unknown and mysterious stuff is what makes it tick.

Ok, have at me.

 

Well, I can't really comment too much on this, because it's all speculation. Personally I see this rather a lot as you do. The really odd thing about Kreia is that she never quite lies to you, but neither does she tell the truth. Her lies are always 60% truth, and her truths are always 50% lies... She's very sly, cunning, and manipulating. In some ways, I like her rather a lot

 

And yes, I think she's Kae. It fits well with her secrecy and her fall from both the jedi order and the sith. Kae was exiled from the jedi. Traya from the sith. Now there is only K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia...

[DarthScribble]

You know, it's stuff like this that makes me appreciate the movies so much more. But unfortunately, in this media, unlike the movies, we can't just look at the cast listing and note that the same person played (or not) both characters as with Palpatine/Sidious.

That's probably one of the funniest quotables from the behind the scenes footage of the OT re-release set when Ian makes fun of the fact that people really should have known that Palpy was the Emporer all along the PT, but there was still a buzz about 'if' he was or not. He mentions that all one would have to do is check the casting. lol Too funny, and too bad we can't just do that with Kae as well. Grrrr.