I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]

[Jae Onasi]

I think if they'd switched the bosses around a bit in TSL it might have worked better--instead of Nihilis/Sion/Traya, it might have been better as Sion/Traya/Nihilis--they build Nihilis up as the big bad guy so much through the game that when I got done fighting him, I actually expected the game to end fairly soon thereafter, instead of having an entire planet follow thereafter. If they'd built him up more and given him some characterization and made him a Real Tough Boss , I'd have been a little more satisfied.

 

I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough. The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"

 

@Darth333--I could deal with the 'feeding on force sensitives' but the 'wound/echoes in the force' was a little too esoteric for me, too.

[Emperor Devon]

I think I'm going to get stoned for this one, but I found Kreia to be a far better villain than Malak. Malak is a good villain, but he's a complete cliche. He laughs whenever he wins at something, for crying out loud. Although a villain like that is okay to have once, I imagine most people will be extremely disappointed if the main bad guy in KotOR III is like him, or if there'd been another Malak in place of Kreia.

 

Kreia, on the other hand, isn't a blind idiot who orders her troops to simply destroy everything. Unlike Malak, her character was full of depth, and you don't discover all of her motives until the end of the game. I found the scenes with her executing her plans or simply talking to her to be far more enjoyable than watching Malak order his lackeys about. Don't get me wrong, I consider Malak a fitting villian for KotOR I, but cunning bad guys are just plain better than big bullies.

 

The difficulty of the Sith Lords in TSL never bothered me, though. You can correct that problem with Kotor Tool in less than a few minutes, so I don't see why it's an issue.

[stoffe]

What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you

 

Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?

 

and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc.

 

Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game? Granted that Calo, Darth Brandon and Lord Malak's Displeasure Delegations tended to talk before fighting unlike Visas and the assassins, but most of KotOR you did go fairly unchallenged by your main opponent save for those handful of encounters, just like in TSL.

 

(And I am happy that there were no "Leviathan incident" in TSL. I hate it when you are forced into "You are captured no matter what, because we say so" situations in games. Breaks the immersion and takes control out of the hands of the player.)

 

None of these villains were ever really a threat to you. Nihilus was a threat to Jedi and people in general, but not specifically you.

 

As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)

 

From the start of the game the Sith in TSL seemed to have a more direct interest in you personally than they did in KotOR1, where you were just an obstacle on the way to capturing Bastila until the truth was revealed.

 

Malak was also a good villain because he had large personal ties to your character.

 

You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her.

 

I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough.

 

I agree. Darth Malak was a thug, more of a young Darth Vader than a Palpatine type. He was an enforcer and tool of someone who was making the plans and pulling the strings, like Vader was for Palpatine. But Malak's ambition made him betray his master and placed him in the top spot, even though he wasn't really suited for it.

 

Causing random havoc and destroying the republic without finesse to become the Master Of the Galaxy paints him more as a homocidal maniac thug than a scheming evil mastermind. And he continued to play his "enforcer" role, actively chasing after the player, even though nobody pulled his strings any more.

 

The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"

 

Since I mostly played the game for the story and not the fights the first time I found it rather refreshing with a bad guy who wasn't insanely more powerful than you and could breathe fire and shoot laser beams out of his eyes for no explained reason. With his primary strength, the force drain, out of the picture he felt more like an even opponent. Someone who the Exile might actually consider herself capable to challenge without comitting suicide.

 

Most of the strength of the Exile&friends in the game tends to come from the rather insanely overpowered eqipment you can find and build. With upgraded armor/robes and lightsabers there is very little that lasts long against you, while most enemies fight more or less naked by comparison. Remove everything except your lightsaber and Nihilus would probably offer more of a challenge.

 

But I can agree that on replays, when you already know most of the story, combat becomes a larger, more important part of the game experience. It also tends to become easier during replays since you've better mastered how the game works. For those situations tougher boss opponents may be enjoyable, but the way the Difficulty setting in the game works I find it entirely unsatisfying to set it higher than Normal. There are more fun ways to up the encounter difficulty in my opinion.

[Feagildin]

I personally liked Malak's look better than Sion's look, and I liked Malak's personality/backstory more than Nihilus' personality/backstory. However, if you take Nihilus' look and combine it with Sion's story and a little tlc/enrichment, you have a baddy that owns Malak like a Twi'lek dancer is owned by a Hutt with a cantina. As it is, however, I prefer Malak to the duo from TSL.

[lessthanjake2]

Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?

 

Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game. In KOTOR 1 you got captured by the Leviathan, you got stalked by Malaks apprentice, and you got stalked by Calo Nord who was working for Malak. That's all after Taris.

 

Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game?

 

When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash. And if he was there cause of you, it sure wasnt made all that clear.

 

And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.

 

As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)

 

But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me. I feel like you are even told that single Jedi dont attract him, that he can only sense many Jedi in the same place.

 

You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her.

 

It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.

[stoffe]

Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game.

 

In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest.

 

Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again".

 

When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash.

 

Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

 

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

 

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).

 

And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.

 

I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

 

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.

 

But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me.

 

You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons.

 

Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.

 

First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.

 

It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.

 

I'll agree that it was a nice thouch to have a more personal past relation with the main bad-guy than was at first apparent, it makes the last quarter of the story more interesting and the final battle more emotional.

 

But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

 

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim).

[Jabba da Butt]

Malak is too cliche. He is just a dumb bully who likes to blow up stuff. The villians in Kotor 2 were a vast improvement, although Nihilus could have used some more backstory. The Kotor 2 villians are more manipulative, smart, sneaky type villians who lay out traps and send assasins, or even hide with the PC and try to sway him to the dark side. I _HATED_ Kreia, because she got on my nerves, but she was an excelent bad guy, err, well, bad girl. Malak fit his role very nicely, but I don't like him much myself, because he is just an idiot. He blows up the galaxy just so he can rule it.

[lessthanjake2]

In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest.

 

Well yeah obviously thats technically true, but supposedly Malak had people after you at all times not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.

 

Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again".

 

Sions assassins on Korriban were sorta coincidence I thought.

The assassins at Dxun were not explained to be after you. They fought the Mandalorians too. Furthermore, its not like those guys sought you out vigorously. They were on Dxun itself at the Freedon Nadd tomb presumably. If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you. That goes a long way. Cause otherwise it just seems random.

 

Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

 

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

 

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).

 

Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem. I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door. How does that make anything clear?

 

I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

 

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.

 

Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.

 

You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons.

 

Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending

 

Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.

 

Thats not the point. The point is that once Nihilus sends his one goon after you (Visas) he is done with goons. ANd since he himself cant find you, hes not a threat.

 

First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.

 

It should be said directly though because while I realized that after playing it a while I am pretty sure I didnt get that the first time through. And most people dont play it more than once. In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. You dont really find out hes allied with the Sith until later anyways. So when that first happens you dont know whats going on.

 

But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

 

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim).

 

It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.

[Emperor Devon]

I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door.

 

A poor idea in a game that does not spoon-feed you the story. That is what her datapad said, but it seems like more than a coincidence that Sion kept a Jedi alive for an extended period of time, and that she just happened to die after you arrived on Korriban, no?

[stoffe]

not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.

 

Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat.

 

You never felt any pressing need to stay out of sight and keep a low profile whenever there were Sith troopers about.

 

You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for.

 

If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you.

(...snip...)

Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem.

(...snip...)

It should be said directly though because...

(...snip...)

In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. (oxymoron?)

 

This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions.

 

Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.

 

Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.

 

Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.

 

 

Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.

 

Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose.

 

Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices.

 

Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending

 

Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same.

 

It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.

 

He used to be Revan's faithful guard dog who did what his master told him to do and attacked what Revan told him to attack. A strong fearless warrior leading the charge into battle from the front, inspiring the troops, in accordance with Revan's strategy. Revan was the Brain and Malak was the Brawn. While Jedi he followed out of admiration and respect, while Sith because Revan was his master and teacher.

 

As the Dark Lord he was homocidal Brawn without brains unleashed upon the galaxy. If it wasn't for competent commanders like Saul working under him the Sith organization would likely have collapsed not long after Revan's fall. Malak is a good villain, just as much as Darth Vader is a good villain. But he is a good "antagonist's right hand" type of villain IMHO, not a good chief villain since he's not an evil mastermind. He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.

[RobQel-Droma]

A lot of people have said it... If you like the traditional villian, Malak is good. He was also very close to the old Star Wars villians like Darth Vader, etc. I think that the TSL Sith had their flaws, but they were very complex and interesting. It would have been better if you hadn't been able to kick their three butts across the modules (each of them had their strong points, but in a sense, they were all pretty easy for me to get rid of). It would have been nice if you had been able to understand more about them, but hey... I like the mystery part.

[lessthanjake2]

Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat.

 

They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.

 

You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for.

 

Haha I never heard Davik say that. Thats pretty funny actually.

 

This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions.

 

I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough. I doubt a majority of people who played TSL really understood it on the first playthrough. After playing through it a bunch more times, I for one will admit that I didnt really understand it my first run. The thing is that all the information IS there but many times you get only some of the information you need in a single playthrough. There are very important things that you only are told if you choose to do a certain thing. I also like having the "Aha!" moments, but when it happens on your 3rd or 4th playthrough of the game, theres a problem. It should happen on the first or at the very least the second time.

 

Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.

 

When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you. Besides being a rather weak reason to stalk someone, it also doesnt make him sound super committed to getting you.

 

Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.

 

He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you. In fact all in all I'd say the hints go the other way on that one, and show that hes NOT after you. And you can bring up all you want about how he sent assassins after you on Dxun and stuff, but as I will explain later, it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus. And as a result, WHILE you are playing the game you arent getting the feeling that Nihilus is after you.

 

Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection. Too much other stuff is going on at that point in the game. But thats just one example of the MANY things that the normal player wont get until after playing it a few times. And thats the problem. Most dont play the game more than once.

 

Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.

 

Her uses for you are NOT clear. She wants to use you to end the force? But how? Thats something I STILL dont know after playing it many times.

 

Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose.

 

It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.

 

Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices.

 

I was about to say that. Couldnt you kill Juhani in KOTOR 1? Cause I definately remember playing a dark side guy and picking the "Time to die" option every time with her and then being shocked when I actually killed her.

 

Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same.

 

In case you dont remember (and I am not saying that with an attitude, I didnt remember it either until playing KOTOR 1 again recently), you have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"

 

And as I said before, its not a question of not having notes attached, its a question of it being something that a normal person wont realize their first time playing the game. If you support Talia, you learn that Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were working together at the end of the game when Telos is attacked (if you even do put two and two together on that one). Thats far too late for a normal person to look back at a trivial thing like that and realize that its possible Tobin told them you were on Dxun.

 

He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.

 

Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.

 

And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.

[YertyL]

O_o Now that's a long post

[Master Urza]

Dance Malak, Dance!!

 

Malak was a great villian > . >

...as cliche as he was

 

I'd have to give him the award. However...had TSL been better...(Just plain better PERIOD) It wouldn't be Malak.

 

Its near impossible for anyone to fight for the other 3-4 as "good" baddies because they were so horribly displayed in the piece of crap TSL is.

 

I will say this...Sicon was BAD @$$$$$$

And Nihilus was SEXY

 

I hate Keria, and if you don't hate her, you should.

 

I'll bet my right genetal on the fact that if you had poll for best baddie Keria would be at the bottom.

[Ztalker]

Of the two games, I find Malak the coolest one.

His story is litteraly 'waved' into yours. He has connections with Bastilla, Carth, HK-47. This makes him more 'human' in some sort of way. More human then Sion, Traya or Nihilus can ever hope to be.

Plus the fact that Malak is strong, and uses a longsaber. This makes him more unique then any other enemy.

[stoffe]

They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.

 

Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

 

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

 

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.

 

 

I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough.

 

The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did. You'd essentially have to follow a walkthrough to be able to squeeze every bit of information out of the game in one playthrough, though I admit that certain things (such as the Kreia's fall FMV) certainly should have been less optional in their nature.

 

I can agree with you that plot-critical information shouldn't be conveyed via optional high-influence dialog options with characters who are hard to influence. Nor should it be conveyed via loadscreen hints, like it was during the somewhat less coherent last planet.

 

 

When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you.

 

I think that the short conversation before you fight on Korriban reveals that. The relevant parts:

Sion: "I have studied you, immersed myself in you. I know the paths you walked in exile. I know your teacher. I know the fires that raged upon the Dxun moon while the Republic died around you. You know war. You know battle. And I know of Malachor. You know what it means to be broken. The one who travels with you will destroy you, as she did me. I can end it before it begins."

 

Exile: "What do you want with Kreia?"

 

Sion: "I want her to die, and see all that she has built cast down. All that she holds dear, in shards at her feet. "

 

Exile: "I won't let you harm her"

 

Sion: "But you do not know her as I do. You have not survived her teachings, as I have. And you have not bested her in battle, as I have. You are nothing. Yet still she walks with you, is willing to sacrifice herself for you!"

 

And after you flee the battle:

 

Sion: {Sion watches the player flee, his face indecisive. The Sith assassins gather behind him, and as one moves forward, he cuts them down with a backslash.} "Do not harm her. I command it. {Slight respect} She... has earned this. She and I will meet again."

 

This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

 

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.

 

He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you.

 

He sends Visas to bring the Exile to him (or kill her if that's not possible), and in the end Visas does just that, though perhaps not in the way and with the intentions that was expected. Since Visas has this special "Seer" gift that Kreia mentions, she if anyone should be able to find this elusive ex-Jedi who has kept hidden so long.

 

And I think it would be wrong to assume that Nihilus doesn't care what happens to Visas. He's force bonded with her and uses her as some sort of force focus for his power. If she's killed Nihilus is severely weakened (as shown if you are evil enough to make Visas commit suicide during the battle). If she disrupts her connection with him he's somewhat weakened (as shown if you don't have Visas kill herself during the battle). Visas is not entirely unimportant to Nihilus.

 

Which is why you are forced to use the Exile, Visas and Mandalore when boarding the Ravager. Any other party composition (well, except perhaps the droids) would have been doomed to fail:

• Nihilus can't "feed" on the Exile due to her special condition.
  
• Nihilus won't "feed" on Visas since they are bonded and he has use for her.
  
• Nihilus won't "feed" on Mandalore since he's the only non-droid in your group who's not force sensitive and thus not worth the effort it would take.
  

 

Thus he's left weak, unable to use his greatest strength during the confrontation.

 

it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus.

 

Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough.

 

Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection.

 

In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)

 

 

It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.

 

Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

 

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. ) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.

 

You have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"

 

Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them.

 

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare.

 

The LMDDs act in a more theatrical but not very realistic way, like Malak does. I think you can draw a parallel to Dark Maul. Maul doesn't waste time introducing himself and outlining his intentions before he enters combat with his opponents. There was no "Lord Sidious was most displeased when he learned that you had escaped Tatooine alive..." speech in the Naboo hangar. Only megalomanics boast to their opponents of their plans "since I'm going to kill you anyway" and throw away the initiative and element of surprise in the process.

 

 

Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.

 

Not going to argue with you about that. Kreia was a good scheming mastermind type character for most of the game. It's a shame that mystery couldn't be maintained with a worthy and believable motive for the scheming at the end. Kreia was probably as inspired by Palpatine as Malak was inspired by Vader.

 

In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:

Exile: "You were manipulating me all along."

 

Kreia: "Yes, always. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I."

 

Exile: "So you used me to get revenge on Sion and the others."

 

Kreia: "I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked. I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris' corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began. I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed. And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic."

 

I'm not trying to say that the plot in TSL was in any way superior to the plot in K1, because I don't think so. I'm just saying I don't agree that it was, in general terms, that much of a difference between how K1 and TSL were laid out, and that TSL would be so much worse than K1 as you seem to think.

 

And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.

 

If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.

[lessthanjake2]

Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

 

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

 

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.

 

No, I realize WHY, just saying that it made them seem like less of a threat. You yourself basically just said they werent as strong as the Sith from KOTOR 1. I dont know. Maybe it is just me, but I really thought it was cool to be able to walk around cities where there were enemy soldiers there too.

 

The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did.

 

I meant to include that in my last post in response to you saying you like TSL. I like it a lot too and I was gonna say that if I were to replay KOTOR 1 or 2 again, i'd probably go with 2. It is a good game, I just dont get the same feeling of taking on an awesome enemy as I did in KOTOR 1.

 

This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

 

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.

 

See I feel like hes got a special interest in Kreia, and maybe by default is interested in you because of that.

 

Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough.

 

Yeah, by that time you dont know that at all. I did my first playthrough a long time ago, but I think I originally thought those were Sion's guys.

 

In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)

 

Uncovering the plot as you go along is cool, but not when something happens when you first go to Onderon and then the explanation for it is only hinted at during the end sequence of the game. It should at least be hinted at later on during your first Onderon visit.

 

Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

 

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. ) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.

 

Meh I never got the feeling she would betray me. I guess I thought about it but I doubted it cause she was doing all that "My life for yours" stuff.

 

Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them.

 

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare.

 

I am not concerned with how they attack, its just that you had to deal with attacks from the main adversaries more in KOTOR 1 than in TSL.

 

In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:

 

Yeah it wouldve been better. I also sorta wouldve liked it if it werent so obvious that she was manipulating you all along. I mean I knew it almost right away. It didnt have to be a "You are Revan" surprise, but it shouldve been a "Wow I totally didnt understand Kreia until now" moment.

 

If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.

 

THats because during the course of the game hes already totally on the dark side. But the interesting nature of his character comes in the fact that he used to be a hero of the Republic. IMO thats what made Revan so interesting too. He wasnt just a redeemed Dark Lord (assuming you go light side at the end). He was a savior, turned enemy, turned savior of the Republic.

[Niftyeye]

well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame

[stoffe]

well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame

 

I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

 

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

 

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy.

[lessthanjake2]

I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

 

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

 

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy.

 

Yeah you are right about that one. I really love the upgrade system of KOTOR 2. I think it adds a totally new aspect to the game that KOTOR 1 didnt have. It makes skills worth it. But at the same time, it is the upgrades that makes the game too easy.

[lukeiamyourdad]

One thing is sure, developers should have taken that into consideration and increase the difficulty.

You shouldn't have to fight with your hands tied to get a decent challenge.

[JoesGuy]

I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.

[Vegard Aune]

I prefer Malak, as he has a bigger role in the game than Sion or Nihilus. (I mean, seriously. You only see Nihilus ONCE in the game before you kill him, and Sion, two times before Malachor.) Traya was there for the entire game, but you didn't really know that. (Okay, the fact that she is a sith is ridiccolously obvious, but that's just guessing.) Malak on the other hand, you see him try to kill you in some way three times before you actually meet him, and then he kidnaps a team-member and reveals your identity, which emphasises his character. Then you get to the Star Forge assault, and the final battle with Malak, which seems hugely more climactic than the battle with Traya.

[Ambrose]

Malak vs. Sion/Traya/Nihilus basically represents the battle of KotOR vs. TSL. Malak is far more of a traditional villain character, much like Darth Vader in fact. KotOR is just a far more clean cut, straightforward storyline.

 

TSL, on the other hand, is a LOT different, and consequently so are the villains. The TSL storyline is far more complex and subtle, and so are the villains. It's far less Star Wars-ish than KotOR, in my opinion, but that's not to say its not as good. It boils down to personal taste.

 

Those who like traditional Star Wars-esque stories will like KotOR and Malak more. They represent more direct confrontations. There is a real and recognizeable war in KotOR, with two well-defined sides. Those who are big into subtle stories are going to like TSL more- the sides in the "conflict" are far less clear, and in fact you don't have any idea who or what you're ULTIMATELY fighting, if anything, for most of the storyline.

 

So pretty much it's different villains for different storytelling styles.

 

I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.

 

Remember here that in the end, everything is guided by Darth Traya. She is the main villain, really, and her goals revolve around the Exile. That's why the Exile is such a big deal. S/he is the final goal of the Sith who really pulls the strings.

[Gavroche]

Kreia said it, Malak is different of the Sith the Exile fought.

 

First, they haven't the same goal. Malak wanted to conquire the Republic, Sion and Nihilus wanted the death of the last Jedis, and Traya planed the death of the Force itself...

 

Malak's power was based on the Star Forge, which produced the fleet he needed to defeat the Republic and converted the energy of the Jedi into a Dark Side-power reserve. The others (except Sion maybe, because if he regenerated against the Exile, it was thanks to the DS energy of Korriban and Malachor) were strong enough in the Force to beat Malak without any artifice.

 

But we can't compare incomparable things. Malak was a conqueror, a warrior, who needed an innumerable fleet, the others were assassins who needed discretion, patience and cunning.

 

The own power of Malak is ridiculously inferior against the abilities of the three other Sith Lords.