Maybe KOTOR III should NOT happen...

[Jediphile]

KotOR3 needs to be a conclusion to the trilogy - a lot of plots are left hanging at the end of KotOR2, and we need closure to them. Not least who the true Sith are, and what happened to Revan and the Exile, when they went to fight them. Without addressing that, it won't be KotOR3.

[Sadam]

Whatever choices may have been made during KOTOR and TSL, there doesn't need to be some kind of canonical timeline in place for the series to continue. The games centre around one individual, and their ability to change the course of galactic events through their actions (much in the same way as Anakin and Luke in the movies). The trouble is, with so much choice available, catering to everyone is not going to work - unless something is introduced at the beginning of KOTOR3 to establish everything.

 

I don't see why the idea of a "History Test" before playing KOTOR3 would be such a problem - for players of previous instalments it gives them the continuity they require, or even allow them to create their own new continuity. First time player/can't be bothered - put in a random "History Generator" that simply decides arbitrarily whether Revan and the Exile are LS/DS and Male/Female.

 

I would love for the game to be a continuation of Revan's story (although I haven't even played KOTOR yet!), reading about him (her) on here and WikiPedia just makes me want to play the character, whatever happens with the other NPCs from the game.

 

As someone said, there's 4,000-odd years to explore, and the Jedi are unnaturally long-lived. Bring back Revan and let's see what (s)he has been up to for all that time......

[mado did dude]

hey havent you guys notice that the movies revolve around the skywalkers

the new jedi order is the solo's and kotor is revan dark lord of the sith who turned good i mean i wouldnt play kotor 3 if it didnt have revan i mean he kicks butt and it wouldnt be kotor to me if there was no bastila shan or carth onasi or darth revan (i called him dana lane) and all games revolve around a character and his allies so yeah sure maybe exile died but hey i wont do notin with kotor 3 without the guy who i played as in kotor 1, i was angry with kotor 2 because there was no revan but hey i got to fight him and played as one of his friends so as i said people kotor revovles around Darth Revan dark lord of the sith. the movies are skywalker and kotor is revan

 

ps i wonder what happend the last thing i heard was that revan was on board the ebon hawk so wtf happend to him

[Mosier]

Canonizing is flawed. Since there would have been no point in customizing Revan or the Exile in the first place if they were going to be given an official appereance in the end.

 

Just wanted to point out Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II

 

Much like KOTOR you had a different ending based on whether you went LS or DS Jedi. The DS ending implied you used the power from the Valley of the Jedi to conquer the galaxy. But in the expansion pack and again in JKII, the game assumed a LS ending for JK:DFII. So LucasArts has done it before...

[90SK]

You can't customize Kyle Katarn. He is an existing character with a backstory, appearance, and all that. The only thing is there is an optional dark side ending which is totally unbelievable (since Katarn conquers the entire galaxy, killing everyone and ruling supreme). There is no comparison between that, and the open-endedness of the KotOR series.

[Mosier]

You can't customize Kyle Katarn. He is an existing character with a backstory, appearance, and all that. The only thing is there is an optional dark side ending which is totally unbelievable (since Katarn conquers the entire galaxy, killing everyone and ruling supreme). There is no comparison between that, and the open-endedness of the KotOR series.

 

As unbelievable as a senator from the pacifist planet Naboo conquering the entire galaxy, killing everyone and ruling supreme?

 

Frankly, I think that is the single most important thing to be able to customize. Wether or not to slaughter billions or which color pants do I want to wear?

 

Besides, customizing wasn't my point. Every story is open ended until the next story comes along and sets a particular new course. But no story can really have an open-beginning. See, KOTOR works because every single player begins at Point A and their choices determine to some extent where they end up. KOTOR 2 worked almost as well by starting everyone at Point B , deciding where point A might have been (but it ultimately is irrelevant as the game does not change at all based on what that A was. Story changes slightly, but gameplay does not)

 

Only by sidestepping the player's choices in KOTOR 1 was KOTOR 2 able to function as a game. So for KOTOR 3 to have the same pseudo-openess it would have to sidestep again the first two games or finally settle some things and proceed. They don't have enough time and money to develop a game that is that variable. At some point they have to re-weave loose story threads or discard them. DF2: JK chose to discard one outcome in favor of another because JKII couldn't proceed with BOTH story outcomes equally possible. That was my point.

[Manny C]

Moiser has a very good point, one that I assumed would be pretty obvious. You cannot tell a story that does not have a set beginning. the past must be decided in order to resolve the story of revan in a cohesive, structured plot, otherwise the game would essentially need to be so variable that no publisher in their right minds would fund it.

This is why it is a nobrainer: either, A: make a decision as to what happened and continue the story of revan

or B: leave it open, forcing the relevance of the entire of the previous 2 games to be very small, and therefore making the game largely unrelated to the last two games.

 

Bear in mind, if everyone is so whiny about canonization, option B could b a good idea. A completely fresh storyline with new characters, but with a similar time period, same atmosphere, style and alot of supporting background (eg, weapons, history, setting) could end up being awesome.

 

Although personally i have nothing against cannonization and i would like to see a continuation of Revan's tale (not to mention the supporting cast we all know and love)

[Journey_Vao]

I've been thinking pretty hard about the problem of the Kotor Story in relation to the canon issue.

 

What I would like to see is a storyline that gives us more information about the nature of the Force and shows a large time span and the things that happen within it. As such I'd like to see them span from early sagas like the exar kun saga or even earlier, all the way up to the skywalker saga (or perhaps a few hundred years before) and show how things are affected. As such here is my idea

 

Your character is found floating forzen in space (or carbonite, or whatever you want) and is revived in a hospital or ship's infirmary. After awaking you find out that your char. was frozen for 200-5000 years! this takes care of the whole "memory loss" thing, since you wouldn't remember much from the past millenia. Frozen for so long of course, your powers would be out of use, therefore you'd have to redevelop. Next you would find that you could communicate with yourself across time. and that you could speak to yourself in the past and in the future. You'd receive a goal from the future and have to achieve that goal working in three different time periods, say just before freezing in the past, the your present, then a few hundred-thousand years in the future.

 

Indeed, it's a pipedream and not likely to come to fruition, but it is one way of looking at it...

[Prime]

Your character is found floating forzen in space (or carbonite, or whatever you want)

Please, no. That is so sci-fi cliche.

[Jediphile]

Only by sidestepping the player's choices in KOTOR 1 was KOTOR 2 able to function as a game. So for KOTOR 3 to have the same pseudo-openess it would have to sidestep again the first two games or finally settle some things and proceed. They don't have enough time and money to develop a game that is that variable. At some point they have to re-weave loose story threads or discard them. DF2: JK chose to discard one outcome in favor of another because JKII couldn't proceed with BOTH story outcomes equally possible. That was my point.

 

I don't agree it must sidestep previous events, though I do agree that it will be a challenge. Besides, KotOR2 did not so much sidestep events of KotOR1 as think of an explanation why events became closer to the middle than either of extreme of the first game. I mean, LS Revan saves the galaxy, destroys the Sith and so forth, while DS Revan takes control of the StarForge, rules Korriban, andb builds an invincible armada that leaves you with the impression that he will conquer the galaxy as a matter of course.

 

However, we don't actually see DS Revan conquer anything, and KotOR2 builds its story on that, then throws in the idea that Revan was unwilling to use the StarForge, because he knew he would be controlled by it, and nobody else had the strength to control the StarForge.

 

But Revan is very extremely either LS or DS at the end of KotOR1, so he or she has to be out of KotOR2, since the plot has to work overall for either extreme. So how do you solve that?

 

Well, you add an enemy that is a threat to Revan's goals whether Revan is LS or DS, and then you let Revan walk out of the limelight to fight that enemy in the background. The point of the next game then becomes for the new protagonist to discover this and eventually join Revan's efforts. However, since the new threat is a danger to both the shattered jedi order and the remnants of Revan's Sith forces, that enemy will be a threat to both Revan and Exile, even if one is LS and the other DS. Then you close KotOR2 with that idea, leaving Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith in the unknown regions, regardless of their alignments. To me KotOR2 was always staged to suit that purpose, and quite frankly for the purpose of setting the stage for the final struggle against the true Sith in the subsequent KotOR3.

 

So does that mean the alignment choice of either game is now void? No, not necessarily, because that depends on how KotOR3 turns out, and there are ways to settle this.

 

For example, how has LS Revan been fighting the true Sith on their home ground for four years (Revan leaving a year after KotOR1) by the time KotOR2 beings? I mean, wouldn't the true Sith be able to agree to slaughter a single goody-goody jedi in their space, no matter how powerful that one jedi might be? Probably yes, but then that's where I see Kreia's take on Revan comes into the picture. To Kreia, Revan never fall and rather sacrificed himself to the cause. I could see LS Revan do that again and become DS just to become one of the true Sith and fight them from within, claiming the throne of the dark lord in their empire. DS Revan would do this for the power (and later invasion of the Republic), and LS Revan would do it to save the Republic from an invasion by the true Sith while the Republic is still in shambles.

 

Now, this would mean that both Revan and Exile are DS in KotOR3. However, this does not mean that their alignment choices are void. I would like to be able to redeem either or both of them, assuming they were LS in the previous games. If they were DS, then they are the enemy that must be destroyed. And it seems to me that all the clues in KotOR2 points to these possibilities or at least do not contradict them, so plotwise it may have been planned all along. It could make for a really interesting end to KotOR3.

[Scars Unseen]

I mean, wouldn't the true Sith be able to agree to slaughter a single goody-goody jedi in their space, no matter how powerful that one jedi might be?

 

Not necesarily... How long did a Luke, Han & Co avoid being "slaughtered" in the OT? And none of them were anywhere near as powerful as Revan(at the time).

[Jediphile]

Powerful jedi tend to turn up on the radar (that's why Nihilus sends Visas after the Exile, and why Kreia warns the Exile that he cannot stay hidden any longer). Luke was not very powerful at first and went from being a non-force user to a full jedi knight in four years, and yet the entire empire was hunting for him during that time. Han & co. didn't matter, since they were not force users (Leia may have been force-sensitive, but had no control).

[Manny C]

Han and co. "didnt matter"? If I recall, Luke actually didnt do anything to destroy the death star. It was han's landing crew who destroyed the shield generator and lando and wedge who blew up the death star, luke had nothing to do with it.

 

But that's not the argument, firstly I don't think Revan's alignment was "more in the middle" at all, it was ambiguous, which is one of the fatal flaws in the game's continuity. People claim that the game's story still works if Revan were evil, but then what happened to the Star Forge? In the evil ending, the republic fleet is destroyed, and the Star Forge remains, and if that's the case, then the republic is screwed, even if revan "dissappears into unknown space", as bastila is still around to assume control.

 

Leaving it ambiguous DOESNT WORK, why can't people see it?

[Prime]

If I recall, Luke actually didnt do anything to destroy the death star.

Actually, what Luke accomplished was perhaps the most important thing of all.

[Emperor Devon]

Prime's article is correct. It's stated in the Thrawn trilogy that the Emperor was practicing Battle Meditation.

[Journey_Vao]

Please, no. That is so sci-fi cliche.

 

Yeah, Prime, since space ships, time travel and pulse weapons in sci-fi are so original...in fact I'm surprised you chose the freezing thing to single out as cliche when time travel and alternate time lines are far more cliche.

 

And hey, at least I didn't suggest a Star Wars/SG1 crossover.

 

Anyway, I think the important thing in this discussion is that you cannot have a very original or re-playable storyline if Revan or the exile or both are involved, simply because it's not an available thing...the biggest problem of course is that if you don't include them somehow you're going to end up with a lot of confusing explanations about their mysterious disappearances.

 

There is a lot of talk in TSL about the fall of the republic and the death of the force, as such I realized that it's possible that a third installment would somehow invovle this fall, and perhaps the forming of a new republic. That's why I suggested the whole time travel thing, since Palpatine says in Attack of the Clone I think it was that the Republic was two thousand years old?

[lessthanjake2]

Heres the problem. It is not so much how you implement choosing how the Exile and Revan turned out, it is what that does to the game and the story itself. If you can choose what happened in the first two games, that means that to the overall storyline of KOTOR III the endings of the first two games have to not really have much of an affect. Think about it. They arent gonna make significant changes in the story of KOTOR III depending on what you say happened in the first two games. This means that KOTOR III will have a mostly isolated story from the first two. Thats all well and good but there are obvious problems with that. One is obviously that we WANT to have a story that is closely related what KOTOR I and IIs story. A story set after the first two that isnt very closely related to those two stories is already at a disadvantage. The second problem is that the actual story arc itself has to end. We wanna have the loose ends from KOTOR II answered. But it is so hard to answer them correctly when you gotta tip toe around what happened at the end of the game.

 

Personally I say, set it in stone, Revan was LSM, the Exile was LSF. That way you can have a seemlessly continuing story that doesnt have some bull where the story cant REALLY delve into the history of the previous games cause things may have happened differently depending on how you played. If you want to have your old Revan or Exile back then tough luck. My first Revan (and therefore the one that sticks in my mind the most) was DSM and my Exile was LSM. So it wouldnt fit exactly what I did either. But I would rather have a story immersed completely in what happened previously, than a story vaguely related that tries to finish the story arc of a storyline it cant get very deep into.

[Prime]

Yeah, Prime, since space ships, time travel and pulse weapons in sci-fi are so original...in fact I'm surprised you chose the freezing thing to single out as cliche when time travel and alternate time lines are far more cliche.

I'm not sure where time travel comes up in Star Wars, but the difference is that space ships and pulse weapons and simply tools and background in SW and other sci-fi, where as freezing to teleport a character into the future is a plot device.

 

And a cliched one at that.

[Jediphile]

Heres the problem. It is not so much how you implement choosing how the Exile and Revan turned out, it is what that does to the game and the story itself. If you can choose what happened in the first two games, that means that to the overall storyline of KOTOR III the endings of the first two games have to not really have much of an affect. Think about it. They arent gonna make significant changes in the story of KOTOR III depending on what you say happened in the first two games.

 

I don't see why that would be so. For example, I could see both Revan and Exile being DS in K3, yet you could still set their alignments and genders, and if they are set to LS, then you can redeem them toward the end of the game. If DS, however, they would be too consumed by the dark side, and you would have no choice but to see them dead, either because they are terrible Sith that must be destroyed to save the republic (LS) or because they are too dangerous competitors to your own ambitions (if you're DS).

 

Personally I say, set it in stone, Revan was LSM, the Exile was LSF. That way you can have a seemlessly continuing story that doesnt have some bull where the story cant REALLY delve into the history of the previous games cause things may have happened differently depending on how you played. If you want to have your old Revan or Exile back then tough luck. My first Revan (and therefore the one that sticks in my mind the most) was DSM and my Exile was LSM. So it wouldnt fit exactly what I did either. But I would rather have a story immersed completely in what happened previously, than a story vaguely related that tries to finish the story arc of a storyline it cant get very deep into.

 

No. In the games, these characters had whatever alignment and gender I preferred them to have. That must remain consistent. And given how fixed the KotOR plots tend to be, I see no reason to tie their genders and alignments down. It was no problem making Bastila DS or killing Carth for a DS Revan in K2, so I don't see why it would be in K3.

[lessthanjake2]

The only reason they could do it in K2 was because either way they said Revan went off into unknown space. But to me that was a cheap cop out. It didnt even matter what happened in K1. I didnt like that and I also didnt like how the plot was so detached from what happened in K1 as a result of having to have Revan just disappear.

[Prime]

The thing is, now that we have reached the third game there are so many things to consider that it ties the hands of the developers. It isn't simply a matter of what the alignments of Revan and the Exile were, but all the potential outcomes and side quests that are a result of them. If you have to take everything into consideration, then the potential storylines are limited.

 

I'd much rather a new storyline that is free to go where creativity takes it, and not have to spend all its time tying up lose ends.

[lessthanjake2]

Think about it this way. They cant make anything that may not have happened have actually happened. The only problem is that the ends of these games were designed so that almost everything couldve changed depending on what you did at the end. That means that the developers of K3 have to somehow make the endings of the previous two games irrelevant. It wont matter what you did at the end of the last two games. It can't matter, because they cant make radical game changes depending on all the different variables that might have changed.

[Scars Unseen]

Well they could, but you'd have 2 planets, 3 characters(the pc, hk and t3) and 18 half finished endings by the time you took everything into acount...

 

I say come to a canon conclusion and move on.

 

This is like trying to write a sequel to a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book.

[The Architect]

What the hell! Forcing a fixed 'canon' Revan and 'canon' Exile on us would suck! I'd rather them not make KOTOR III, or not base the focus of the plot on the 'True Sith' instead of playing a game of that forced a fixed 'canon' Revan and 'canon' Exile on us. First of all, what happened to the player's freedom, the roleplaying? What was the point of even making KOTOR and KOTOR II, only to see the characters that you created be destroyed by this 'canon' crap, huh?

 

If some of you people think that it's impossible to cater for the sixteen gender/alignment combo's of Revan and the Exile and put it into one plot, then your wrong. Yes, it would be difficult, but I could do it, Jediphile has done it (with his awesome IMO storyline proposal) and khawk could do it too and it looks like T.Nova can too (suggestion: continue your storyline T.Nova) as can other creative talented people I'm sure, and it would not be impossible for game developers to do in terms of size, costing and time either.

 

Whatever Revan and the Exile might have been by this stupid 'canon' crap is irrelevant. I'd consider it as a secondary priority when it comes to the actual games. Sure, Revan and the Exile may be LS according to the EU, but what they are in the actual game is entirely up to the individual player, and by forcing a fixed 'canon' Revan and 'canon' Exile on us, well put it this way, it is far worse than killing them off or leaving them out of the game completely without even mentioning them, it is the biggest NO NO of them all!!!

 

We simply must be able to select the genders/alignments of Revan and the Exile in KOTOR III (if there is one), that is a priority IMO. So I could not disagree with those people who want Revan and the Exile 'canonized' more, I want to be able to select the genders/alignments of Revan and the Exile, not have them forced on me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that does.

 

Not being able to select the genders/alignments of Revan and the Exile in a potential KOTOR III would be absolutely ****in **** house! When I've finished writing my KOTOR III storyline (which could be a long time away unfortunately, because over the next 8-10 weeks, I'll be very busy) PM me and anyone can read it, I'll show you how it's done. If people like me, khawk and Jediphile, (who are not professional game developers) can do it, then surely professional writers can, if not, then they should be fired, and I should be working for a game developing company and writing stories/characters for video games.

 

But anyway, I hope Obsidian makes KOTOR III, because Chris Avellone is a superb writer, and I'm confident, he could pull off this massive problem, the Obsidian team are very talented, and it really pisses me off when people come out and trash KOTOR II because those type of people wouldn't know what a good story/characters are if it hit them right in the face, and it's not their fault that the game was missing so much important content. Besides, I honestly think KOTOR II was set up to overcome all these obstacles/problems that a potential KOTOR III game that focuses on the 'True Sith' plot would face.

 

I'd bet alot of people wouldn't be too happy with Revan if he/she ended up being some annoying smart-ass joke character, or someone who didn't have the same personality, character, the virtues and traits (that define a living person) that there Revan and Exile have. Revan and the Exile are YOUR characters when it comes to the video games.

 

The main reason why everyone loves Revan (and the Exile, but the Exile isn't as popular) so much is because they love themselves (it sounds awkward, but it's true, except for friggin emo's and goth's, etc)...

 

Each indivdual that has played KOTOR and KOTOR II has defined who Revan and the Exile was themselves, otherwise you wouldn't be role-playing would you?

 

The main point being is that alot of people don't realize how bad of an idea 'canonizing' Revan is. But look, in terms of size, time and cost, yes, if it is indeed that big of a problem, then Obsidian should of just based the events of KOTOR II in a completely different timeline, such a timeline, that the devs would not have had to deal with or worry about any potential problems concerning a previous PC from a prequel KOTOR game. That would be better than 'forcing' everything on you and destroying the whole point of KOTOR...roleplaying!

 

I know where people who beleive that basing the game off a fixed Revan and a fixed Exile are coming from, yes, it would be difficult to implement the sixteen gender/alignment combo's of Revan and the Exile into one plot, but I personally think it's not impossible in terms of sizing, costing and timing to do, and I set out to develop a 'solution' KOTOR III plot. One day, people will be able to assess it for themselves, and come to their own conclusion if it would be possible for game developers to accomplish/make.

 

If it does turn out that in terms of size, time and costing that it is indeed impossible to acknowledge all gender/alignment combos/variables from the previous KOTOR's, then the devs should base the storyline off in a completely new timeline, instead of forcing a fixed canon Revan and canon Exile on us.

 

Wouldn't that be better than forcing a fixed Revan and fixed Exile on us just to make KOTOR III work? It's not fair to do that, and as gamers (it's not our fault) LucasArts dug themselves into this unresolved mess, which is what the KOTOR series is, at this stage.

 

You are destroying the whole point of KOTOR and KOTOR II by basing the events of KOTOR III off a fixed Revan and a fixed Exile, it is unfair. By the way, why does KOTOR III have to go in depth into the history of the previous KOTOR's in order for the game to work? IMO, KOTOR II worked fine (apart from the important missing content, the bugs/glitches, incomplete status).

[Scars Unseen]

First of all, as has been said before, if you don't base KOTOR III's storyline on what has come before then it is not KOTOR III anymore than Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance is Baldur's Gate. It just becomes a giant cow-milking session. Cashing in on a well known series(not that this has never been done with Star Wars before).

 

Second, it may not be impossible to take 16 different character combinations, it is completely implausible to spend the time scripting and programming for what amounts to very little actual content. This is assuming of course that we want a finished game this time. Not to mention that in addition to the time taken to accomplish this, you have in fact made an exchange: shallow variety for depth. Given the option for 16 meaningless possible histories or 1 detailed one that gives more meaning to the choices you make from there, I'll take the one.

 

Variety should never branch inward, and you are talking about 16 possible beginnings and(likely) 2 endings. I am willing to accept that 2 characters that I am not even playing turned out differently than they were when I was playing them. I am not willing to accept a game that has no depth, glosses over the fact that the events of the last 2 games even occurred and is imcomplete because they tiptoed around too much at the beginning to be able to really get into the fine tuning of all the quests and storylines of the latter part of the game.