Physical punishment of children

[TK-8252]

Nice comparison. It's an oh-so accurate depiction of what jimbo had in mind.

 

My intention was not to make a direct comparison.

 

That was however the first thing that popped into my head when I hear "I think slapping my child is fine because I love my child when I do it."

 

It certainly is ironic.

[CapNColostomy]

"I beat my wife because I love her."

 

Just doesn't make any sense, man...

 

Congratulations! You just may have typed out the stupidest thing on the internet of all time. Beatings and spankings aren't the same, for the SECOND time. One is a means of punishment and discipline. The other is ruthless to the point of being potentially lethal. Smacking the hand of a child (that doesn't yet have the capacity to understand danger or commands like "NO!") that's reaching for a kitchen knife, and thumping on a woman because your dinner is cold are OBVIOUSLY worlds apart. Please, stop being ignorant, or at least pretending to be so ignorant that you can justify saying stupid things to try winning an argument on the internet.

 

Physical force is simply a simple and lazy way to discpline a child, and like all lazy methods of doing things, has bad consequences in the long term.

 

Such as? I want proof. Not bull****, Dr. Phil theories. What are these bad consequences? I can hear it now. "Well, my todler had a golf ball in her hand, and I could've reached out and smacked it away, then gave her a quick swat on the butt to reinforce that her behavior was wrong. Or used some form of restraint, uncomfortable to the child, to take the ball, but I read that would break the trusting bond my child and I have.Also, I heard it was lazy to do so, and has bad consequences in the long term. So I said 'HEY! I'm taking away your toys, and you're going to the corner, but if you don't swallow the ball, I'll give you a new toy to choke on in the future.' Funny thing is, since my kid doesn't know not to poke golf balls in her mouth, it stands to reason that she also doesn't quite have a grasp on the language. By the time I wasted my breath saying that horse-****, my kid was turning blue."

[St. Jimmy]

Once again, It's taken CapNColostomy, jimbo and Jae to make some sense.

Smacking? I'm all for it. Beating? hell no. They ARE different things. Smacking teaches discipline.

However, Smacking can't be done in anger. I've seen it done and it's not good for anyone involved. THAT's what shows 'that violence isn't cool but I'll smack you to punish you.' But when you sit down with the kid, talk to them about why they're going to/just been smacked and then do it calmly, It shows that you're doing it because you love the child and you want what's best for them. Also, sometimes people forget when they're sending a child to their room, they're sending their child to a room full of toys. I could go on but the aforementioned posters have pretty much said all I can.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

OK, you asked for a survey, and I give you a survey. Scroll down to "Supplementary Information".

 

Reply to the rest of your posts is pending. I need to actually read them first.

 

The reason I discipline my children is because I love them.

It baffles me how people keep bringing this Strawman fallacy up (namely the "No spanking=No discipline whatsoever"-fallacy).

 

There are options other than

1. Spanking a child and not
2. Not disciplining the child at all.

It reminds me of neo-conservatives supporting the Guantanamo torture and going "we need to interrogate them to save the US!". Yup, but there are other methods of interrogation than illegal, barbaric torture.

 

That went out the window rather quickly once my kids reached the toddler stage--there are just some times where they absolutely must obey you without question because it's a safety or life-and-death situation (like not running into the street when you see a car coming but they don't, not jumping into a pond, not sticking their fingers in the unprotected electric sockets or drinking the Drano at Aunt Martha's house, etc.). Toddlers can't reason like older kids. Time-outs don't always stop disobedience. So, for those specific situations where disobedience could have health or life-threatening consequences (like running away in a parking lot), I did resort to spanking, 1 time on the bottom. Usually once was all it took.

Again, there are other effective methods. Norway has a fairly low number of toddlers running around on highways, even though physical punishment has been banned here for probably more than a decade.

 

"I beat my wife because I love her."

Kudos, TK.

 

Beatings and spankings aren't the same, for the SECOND time.

"Spanking" is a stupid euphemism used by advocates of physical punishment. Talk to a person who beats their child with a belt and they'll call it spanking and whatever's worse than the belt "beating".

 

"Well, my todler had a golf ball in her hand, and I could've reached out and smacked it away, then gave her a quick swat on the butt to reinforce that her behavior was wrong. Or used some form of restraint, uncomfortable to the child, to take the ball, but I read that would break the trusting bond my child and I have.Also, I heard it was lazy to do so, and has bad consequences in the long term. So I said 'HEY! I'm taking away your toys, and you're going to the corner, but if you don't swallow the ball, I'll give you a new toy to choke on in the future.' Funny thing is, since my kid doesn't know not to poke golf balls in her mouth, it stands to reason that she also doesn't quite have a grasp on the language. By the time I wasted my breath saying that horse-****, my kid was turning blue."

I hope that was intended to be funny or something, 'cause as an argument it holds absolutely no water (see my black-and-white paragraph above).

 

Once again, It's taken CapNColostomy, jimbo and Jae to make some sense.

Damn, I should've arrived earlier, then. All I see now is a bunch of posts advocating physical punishment.

 

Congratulations! You just may have typed out the stupidest thing on the internet of all time.

Internet, not internet. Spell your flames right:p.

[Emperor Devon]

Such as? I want proof. Not bull****, Dr. Phil theories.

 

Can you show me any? I doubt it. All we can offer each other are theories and very basic logic.

 

but I read

 

Anyone who didn't realize that causing a child physical pain would degrade the child's trust is obviously not prepared to have children.

 

but if you don't swallow the ball, I'll give you a new toy to choke on in the future.'

 

That strikes me as spoiling the child.

 

Funny thing is, since my kid doesn't know not to poke golf balls in her mouth,

 

If the child doesn't know any better, punishment is a poor choice. If it happens a second time, then it is.

 

it stands to reason that she also doesn't quite have a grasp on the language. By the time I wasted my breath saying that horse-****, my kid was turning blue."

 

I'm surprised that a child so young would be allowed near an item like that.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Can you show me any? I doubt it. All we can offer each other are theories and very basic logic.

Ahem (scroll to "Supplementary Information").

 

To be honest, while I knew there was scientific evidence "spanking" was bad for you, I didn't know of any specific ones. So when I was asked to provide my evidence in this thread, I had this momentary panic until I came across what I linked to above:). Oh well, everything worked out in the end.

[Emperor Devon]

Ahem (scroll to "Supplementary Information").

 

Sorry, didn't notice that. I'm glad there's some proof for what I'm arguing.

[Halo_92]

Once again, It's taken CapNColostomy, jimbo and Jae to make some sense.

Smacking? I'm all for it. Beating? hell no. They ARE different things. Smacking teaches discipline.

However, Smacking can't be done in anger. I've seen it done and it's not good for anyone involved. THAT's what shows 'that violence isn't cool but I'll smack you to punish you.' But when you sit down with the kid, talk to them about why they're going to/just been smacked and then do it calmly, It shows that you're doing it because you love the child and you want what's best for them. Also, sometimes people forget when they're sending a child to their room, they're sending their child to a room full of toys. I could go on but the aforementioned posters have pretty much said all I can.

 

I'm with you guys on this one.

How many of you hate your parents be cuase they spanked you?

[TK-8252]

Congratulations! You just may have typed out the stupidest thing on the internet of all time. Beatings and spankings aren't the same, for the SECOND time. One is a means of punishment and discipline. The other is ruthless to the point of being potentially lethal. Smacking the hand of a child (that doesn't yet have the capacity to understand danger or commands like "NO!") that's reaching for a kitchen knife, and thumping on a woman because your dinner is cold are OBVIOUSLY worlds apart. Please, stop being ignorant, or at least pretending to be so ignorant that you can justify saying stupid things to try winning an argument on the internet.

 

I love you too, CapN.

 

But read the post I made AFTER that post. I did not say that the two were the same. All I'm pointing out is the irony.

 

I'm with you guys on this one.

How many of you hate your parents be cuase they spanked you?

 

I was only spanked one or two times, but my mom has officially apologized for doing so, because now she knows it was wrong. I don't think that very many children "hate" their parents simply because they used corporal punishment. I think "fear" is a better word. A fearful relationship is NOT a trustful one.

[swphreak]

This is usually the point where I tell myself to not to bother debating anymore, we're going to keep spanking our kids when we need to, and you're going to keep not spanking.

 

I know that when I have kids, odds are, I won't spank them, but if I do, it will surely be for something big. If it's something like the kid not doing homework, well, he gets to do nothing but homework for awhile.

 

I reiterate, different people, different ways to raise children. No one is changing their ways.

[Halo_92]

Yes, to each his own.

[Davinq]

Why is it that I always miss the heat of the debate?

 

Ah well. I'll make a statement regardless. If spanking works for you, go for it. If not, I've always found incentive for reward always felt much more right than corporal punishment. Such harshness is sure to help nurse deep grudges and a distrustful instinct in the future. Do you really think God wants that?

 

DQK out

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I reiterate, different people, different ways to raise children. No one is chasing their ways.

People have been chaning (I assume you mean that and not "chasing"?) their ways since the dawn of Man. The ban on physical punishment in Norway is only about thirty years old. It's not always been there - it arrived when people changed their morals sufficiently to want that law.

 

How about this (to all spanking advocates): I posted a link to research that I believe proved "spanking" is not good for the children. Why not address that, or post something that shows "spanking" is not bad for your kids?

[Nancy Allen``]

I'm against it for the most part, however I do advocate physically restraining a child, forcibly if need be, if they are being violent or are putting themselves or others at risk. It's much the same as spanking I know but it doesn't have the humiliation aspect that some people are against and you are preventing that child from harming themselves (at least anymore than a police armbar used to restrain suspects would) or others.

[Jae Onasi]

@DE--just because corporal discipline of children is outlawed in Norway and other countries does not mean it's not happening.

 

I'm quoting out of this AAP article, which for the most part I agree with. The AAP's definition of spanking is: "Spanking, as discussed here, refers to striking a child with an open hand on the buttocks or extremities with the intention of modifying behavior without causing physical injury."

 

This is the only form we use. The other forms border on or definitively are child abuse, and should not be utilized. I don't condone abuse. If fact, I'm required by law to report abuse, and I've had to do so more than once because the kids' situations were horrendous.

 

Number 8 in the supplemental states: "Although spanking has been shown to be effective as a back-up to enforce a time-out location, it was not more effective than use of a barrier as an alternative.32"

 

While other methods may be equally effective, spanking (in the sense the AAP defines) has apparently been shown to be an effective back-up in specific situations according to this statement.

 

We've always chosen spanking as a last resort method anyway, but we have used spanking far less often as our kids have grown older. I can't remember the last time I spanked my oldest, it's been that long. It's more effective as they get older to let them experience the consequences of their misbehavior (again, within a safe environment) or take away privileges like the playstation. In fact, when my daughter's being Miss Drama Queen, spanking is less effective than sending her to her room to sit on her bed (toys aren't allowed in time out even if they're in the same room). It's hard to be a Drama Queen when you have no audience.

 

There are specific times where we need to use corporal punishment. While we work hard to set up our house to be a safe environment, there's no way you can get rid of every single hazard, like the stove. We can't protect them 100% from hazards outside the home, either. We can't keep our kids in little balls of bubble wrap to protect them from the world around them. If my kid is reaching for the stove, I'm not going to allow her to burn her hand because I'm opposed to the use of corporal punishment (in this case, slapping away her hand before she burns herself). A slap on the hand is a lot better than 2nd or 3rd degree burns. I think spanking should be done infrequently, and certainly not in the teen years. During the school age years, I think it should be used even less than the pre-school/toddler years, and I've found other non-corporal methods more effective once my kids get in/past kindergarten.

 

Sure, other things should be tried before corporal punishment. That's why we use it so rarely. However, there are very specific times where that may be a better option than other forms of discipline, and we'll use it very carefully in that case. We've already determined that we don't want to discipline in anger (in any form, not just corporal). Our kids don't fear us or hate us.

 

We try hard to remember to use positive reinforcement for _good_ behavior, since it's the good behavior we want to encourage, after all. We spend a lot of time with our kids--working on homework, reading books to them (Howliday House is my son's current fav), playing with them on the computer, going to baseball games and taekwondo with them, and many other activities.

 

Are we going to make parenting mistakes? Absolutely, because we're human and not perfect. We can and have, unfortunately. We all have crappy days. I've apologized more than once to my kids. If you think I enjoy disciplining my kids, however, you'd be mistaken. I don't. However, if I don't, they'll turn into spoiled, self-centered brats and grow into spoiled, self-serving adults who have no respect for others.

I am also not advocating frequent use of spanking, and I certainly don't advocate physical (or any other kind of) abuse. If other non-corporal forms work, great. Use those first, with spanking as a last resort.

 

I have to say' date=' your story was very odd to picture with your Lumiya avatar...[/quote']

 

Believe me, it was an odd event, storming out of the store carrying a 3 year old sideways across my hip like a sack of potatoes as she's kicking and shredding my eardrums shrieking at a pitch that Mariah Carey would have trouble reaching. I'm sure I was the entertainment of the day for security. I got a couple of nasty looks from some people, but mostly sympathetic ones, especially the grandmas and parents. If someone had stopped me to say something, I probably would have had some kind of Dark side response, however. I'm just glad that I hadn't put anything in the cart at that point. Some poor soul would have had to put all my stuff back.

 

Edit: I'll try to find some research, but I have a report to write for my volunteer group due in a couple days, so it may be a bit.

[Emperor Devon]

Believe me' date=' it was an odd event, storming out of the store carrying a 3 year old sideways across my hip like a sack of potatoes as she's kicking and shredding my eardrums shrieking at a pitch that Mariah Carey would have trouble reaching. I'm sure I was the entertainment of the day for security. [/quote']

 

Good gawd, I'm surprised security didn't stop you. I'd have thought there was some form of child abuse going on. How long was the walk from the store to your car?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Good gawd, I'm surprised security didn't stop you. I'd have thought there was some form of child abuse going on. How long was the walk from the store to your car?

To paraphrase Louis C.K (just because I can't remember the quote), most people look at a kid crying and think "what did that ****ty parent do to that poor kid?" Whereas parents see a crying kid and think "what did that ****ty kid do to that poor woman?"

[The Source]

I have been on the recieving end of some harsh punishments. Truthfully, I can understand punishing a kid, but I think there needs to be some restraint on the physical side. During my parent's divorce, my father was brought up on physical abuse charges. He didn't know when to stop, and alcohol didn't help matters. He really needed theropy, but he never received any help. Too bad. I haven't talked to my dad for over eleven years now, so you can imagine the type of chaos physical punishment could conflict on everyone involved. It sucks to live through it, and it sucks to see what it can do to a family.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I have been on the recieving end of some harsh punishments. Truthfully, I can understand punishing a kid, but I think there needs to be some restraint on the physical side. During my parent's divorce, my father was brought up on physical abuse charges. He didn't know when to stop, and alcohol didn't help matters. He really needed theropy, but he never received any help. Too bad. I haven't talked to my dad for over eleven years now, so you can imagine the type of chaos physical punishment could conflict on everyone involved. It sucks to live through it, and it sucks to see what it can do to a family.

I'd say everyone in this thread is against that sort of thing though. To me, that clearly crosses the line between punishment and abuse.

[The Source]

I'd say everyone in this thread is against that sort of thing though. To me, that clearly crosses the line between punishment and abuse.

One year before I graduated from high school, my family went through a massive divorce. (Other personal reasons). I will allways remember what I have been through, and it will help me approach the future. I am blessed to have other family members and friends to help out. Now, I am 30 years old, and everything in my life has changed. For several years after my families divorce, I would wake up with nightmares. Even though I had a sence of resolve, I still felt shaken up about what I went through.

 

For those who think physical punishment is necessary:

 

One night I came home late from seeing a movie. I was about an hour late, and I didn't call to let anyone know. As I got into the door, my father grounded me for two months. After he handed out his sentence, he knocked me on the floor, stood over me, looked down, and delivered closed fists across my head. He repeated this until I stopped moving. I tried to get up so many times, but his body weight was overwhelming. Keep in mind I came from a middle-class family at the time, so this could happen to anyone in any class level.

 

His version of justice was that there isn't enough pain. Either I would have to bruse, or I would have to yell in pain. Even though I did yell, he still kept going at times.

 

Wow. That was a long ago. Thank God I had help. 18 years of that garbage was bad enough. That piece of shnite.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

One year before I graduated from high school, my family went through a massive divorce. (Other personal reasons). I will allways remember what I have been through, and it will help me approach the future. I am blessed to have other family members and friends to help out. Now, I am 30 years old, and everything in my life has changed. For several years after my families divorce, I would wake up with nightmares. Even though I had a sence of resolve, I still felt shaken up about what I went through.

 

For those who think physical punishment is necessary:

 

One night I came home late from seeing a movie. I was about an hour late, and I didn't call to let anyone know. As I got into the door, my father grounded me for two months. After he handed out his sentence, he knocked me on the floor, stood over me, looked down, and delivered closed fists across my head. He repeated this until I stopped moving. I tried to get up so many times, but his body weight was overwhelming. Keep in mind I came from a middle-class family at the time, so this could happen to anyone in any class level.

 

His version of justice was that there isn't enough pain. Either I would have to bruse, or I would have to yell in pain. Even though I did yell, he still kept going at times.

 

Wow. That was a long ago. Thank God I had help. 18 years of that garbage was bad enough. That piece of shnite.

Once again, that clearly falls in the category of abuse and not punishment.

[The Source]

Once again, that clearly falls in the category of abuse and not punishment.

From where I stand, there is a very fine line between physical punishment and abuse.

[Nancy Allen``]

A thirty year old, 210 pound man striking a seven year old 40 pound girl is not discipline. It's assault, you can ask any police officer and they'll tell you that.

[The Source]

A thirty year old, 210 pound man striking a seven year old 40 pound girl is not discipline. It's assault, you can ask any police officer and they'll tell you that.

Yep. I agree. I have been in her shoes. I hope justice will be swift, and that piece of shnite pays daily. I hope the girl comes out of this without serious mental scarring.

[Emperor Devon]

Good God, Mac, my life seems so sheltered in comparison to your story. You have my sympathies for what you've been through.

 

Although I am (obviously) against spanking, I think that there is a large difference between it and abuse. Both are a very poor form of parenting, but they are quite different.