-Capital Ships-

[Darth Windu]

But realism is very important, especially in games like this. After all, if every faction had ISD's, Mon Cal Cruisers and if Luke was a 10ft giant with lightsabres for arms, it wouldn't be a good Star Wars game now would it?

 

As I pointed out with the Axis & Allies example, you don't have to give evry side the same sort of unit in order for the game to be balanced. I personally would rather see the Consortium have cheaper, smaller ships rather than an ISD killer.

 

Perhaps rather than having a battleship, the Consortium could have had a 'ramship' that is unarmed and small, but flies straight into an enemy battleship, damaging it.

[Valter]

balance > realism

 

Darth Windu, your first example is ridiculously exaggerated so I won't address it.

 

If the Consortium had cheaper, smaller ships they wouldn't stand a chance against either side. The philosophy of the Consortium is to use units that can deal out the punishment but can't take the punishment. Tyber is the type of character who is willing to deal out cash for quality units and weapons. Sort of the "you pay crap and you get crap, you pay gold and you get gold" kind of person. Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.

 

A 'ramship' is no more Star Wars like than a ten foot Luke with lightsaber arms. A 'ramship' would cause balance problems anyway, like taking out a space station or a star destroyer with one attack.

[wedge2211]

Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.

Imperial. Star. Destroyer. Ahem.

 

Actually, I'd like to see a 'ramship' for the Consortium. They've already sort of got that, with the self-destruct ability on the Vengeance frigates. But the Zann consortium definitely seems like the kind of guys who'd take a clunky, broken-down old frieghter, load it with a transponder that would get it in past the first line of enemy fleet defense, and pack the cargo bay full of explosives. Tyber Zann would certainly appreciate getting a lot of "bang" for his buck! I bet Petrogylph will surprise us in this department...

[darthfergie]

I ditto Darth Windu. I did actually expect the largest ship in the pirate fleet to be a hack job of a star destroyer or a tricked out bulk cruiser or some dreadnaughts. Have lots of small fast ships and several ships with very crazy weaponry. So far we're seeing bits and pieces of the of the crazy tactics, but at the same time we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane. ISDs should be in a land all their own in terms of might. Mon Cals are converted cruise liners, ISDs could toss them in the waste bin toe to toe. Oh well, such is XML.

I figured that the pirates would have lots of units, not zillions, more like, exotic units rather than massive hunks of metal eclipsing the sun.

Although I would love to see Pirates have the ability to capture enemy ships. That would make me very happy. Taking over an SSD and using it at reduced efficiency would be a very happy thing indeed. Can you say Warlord?

 

I just don't think you can continue to make up huge ships that somehow never made it into any books, but they are out there and are bigger than ISDs (when you consider how notable Booster's Errant Venture is, it doesn't make a whole bunch of sense).

[darthcarth]

i agree balance is important valter but the thing is it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd, also ram ships arent uncan what do u do with a ship that has its weapons disabled sned it into the enemys ships or make it explode.

[Darth Windu]

Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.

[Valter]

Well, I'm fine with the Consortium units that Petroglyph has created. If you don't like the units or how powerful they are then just use mods or tweak the XML.

[Rust_Lord]

>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

 

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

 

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).

 

The ram ships could work and they wouldnt be overpowering either; an ISD for instance would be able to tractor beam one before it got pounded by another. A Mon Cal could absorb one detonation with a timely use of its shield boost ability but would be vulnerable to another attack when this ability was over. I could see how it would work nicely. It depends on how powerful the blast was made...and the downside could be hypering in it too close to the enemy where it would be destroyed quickly or escorting it to the enemy and risk a premature detonation from enemy fire that frags your own ships. It could be great fun.

 

I guess cloaking is effectively what I would have liked to have seen the ZC ships get and that is like a 'civilian mode' where their ships could cruise around and not appear as enemy craft until they rolled out their guns like merchant raiders in WW2. The ZC ships could break off and if they got out of visual range they could activate civilian mode again. But cloaking basically does this so...

 

And Windu is right...the GLA are totally unique compared to the other factions in Generals and they are very balanced.

[Darth Ablett]

>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

 

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

 

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).

 

I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

 

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.

 

As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.

 

Also, I think corvettes in general are too good, but that's another story.

[wedge2211]

Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.

The same goes for StarCraft, which had the classic combination of "really expensive, powerful unit faction," "really cheap, weak unit faction," and "middle-of-the-road faction." And, in fact, one of the most effective units in the game were the Zerg Scourge, diabolically cheap anti-air suicide units. Exactly the sort of ends-justify-the-means, sneak-attack sort of thing I'd expect from a guy like Tyber Zann.

 

Actually, a neat ability for the Consortium might be to designate one of their ships per battle as a bomb carrier, and have that ship launch a suicide attack against an enemy capital ship. Then there would be an element of surprise--you don't know whether it's that squad of blastboats, that troop transport, or that Vengeance frigate that's suddenly going to ram your capital ships.

[Rust_Lord]

>>The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour.

 

Funny you should say that because, I think its in the game contants folder, but the ISD does have better armour than the MC; so this makes the disparity between the two ships even more alarming. By way or armour, I mean the MC will take full damage from a ISD hit whereas an ISD takes 75% damage (its multiplier is .75).

 

I cant believe i forgot about Star Craft too...good call...damn that was a great game. The format was as you said Wedge but it had balance issues as well...I remember a 4v4 between 4 humans and 4 hard computers and when the computer had a couple of protoss players it would combine forces and march about 2 dozen zealots to one persons base! We all used to pray we werent the closest to them...which reminds me, prolly a bit off topic but anyone noticed the Bothan Frenzy space map AI if you play against rebels. I had a 2v2 with all computers and they spammed over a dozen corvettes and gunships. Even using VSDs and ISDs they were just too strong, since they would hunt in packs of at least 6. Really nasty. Depended on how much of a jump they got with resources early though...

[Boba Fett 1991]

I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.

[darthcarth]

Umm then basicly your post was spam, i use mods most of the time to make up for this but realy eaw should have more canonness to it i cant even stand one skimish because of the lack of balance.

[Darth Windu]

I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.

As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

 

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

 

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

 

Thoughts?

[ImpElite]

Sounds cool to me, it would just get tiring to have to switch your weapons at the end of every battle if you wanted explosives on him now or weapons on him, 'Course I COULD just make half the ones I make explosive and the other half have weapons..... Not a bad idea at all DarthWindu!

[wedge2211]

That was kind of what I was trying to say. The Consortium should be able to pick a ship at will and set it to ram/explode near enemy targets.

[Valter]

As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

 

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

 

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

An 'explosive ship' is actually a pretty good idea, much better than the 'ramship'. In a way, the Vegeance Frigates and the Aggressors already have this ability though.

[darthcarth]

Yes but if their was a ship just dedicated to explosions it owuld be more powerful.

[wedge2211]

Having the ability to disguise the kamikaze ship as any other vessel would give the Consortium a new level of sneakiness, though. And why not ram and explode at the same time? (Anybody see what happened to the Battlestar Pegasus last night? HO-LY crap!)

 

Here's an idea for implementation: What about a specialized transport ship designed to load other vessels with explosives? To the other factions, this ship would look just like a normal troop transport--totally innocuous and useless in a battle. It would have the special ability, however, of pulling up next to a non-hero Consortium vessel, docking, and loading it up with high-yeild explosives while the original ship's crew transfers to the transport for a quick getaway. The loaded ship now has one and only one purpose: to drive straight at an enemy formation and explode. All other attacks and abilities of that ship would be nullified.

 

This ability, I think, has the perfect blend of advantages and disadvantages. The Consortium could sneak any vessel it wants into an enemy formation and cause massive disruption and damage, perhaps elimenating key targets in the process, and the enemy would not be able to predict when, where, or how this would happen. On the other hand, the Consortium not only has to sacrifice a combat vessel to do this, but they have to load it up and send it on its one-way trip, giving the enemy a chance to intercept the bombship before it's fully loaded or take it down on its drive into their combat line.

[Darth Windu]

As Wedge noted, being able to make any ship into a suicide ship makes the Consortium even more sneaky, and keeps the enemy guessing.

 

However I would look more at the conversion to a suicide ship as being on a strategic level rather than the tactical level. After all, the modifications would be significant.

 

Oh yeah Wedge - could you please not mention Battlestar Galactica? Over here in Australia we've only just started Season 2, so I'd rather not know whats going to happen next, if thats cool. Thanks.

[darthcarth]

I agree as long as it has limited manuvarability (so it would be instant death to naything some ships would have enough time to get out of the way)

[TearsOfIsha]

I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

 

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.

 

Actually, it's not that simple. The design of the Mon Cal cruiser was vastly superior to the ISD - mainly due to the fact that the Mon Cals are simply better designers and ship-builders than humans when it comes to cap ships. The ISD *never* 'completely eclipsed' the mon cal - even the imperials admitted to that. In actual fact, the mon cal was substantially tougher than the ISD due to it's design (redundant shields, compartments etc), and they were much more manueverable - partially due to their smaller size and better engines, but also due to the fact that Mon Calamari are just plain better cap ship pilots). The only thing which the ISD had over the mon cal ships was sheer firepower - it had more guns. Hence, I think the ISD in EaW should get more guns.

 

But at the end of the day, 'Warship vs converted liner' is inaccurate. 'Warship of inferior design vs converted liner of vastly superior design' is much more accurate.

 

As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.

 

Yeah, I've hd enough of seeing two Mon Cals or, as I've just seen Thrawn and a vanilla ISD 0wned by those WTFPWNING-class battleships or whatever they're called...

[Rust_Lord]

@ TearsofIsha's post: DooD I strongly disagree. A converted liner, even a great one will be inferior to a dedicated warship. The design of a Mon Cal was clearly inferior to the ISD as a warship not just because the Empire has unrestricted access to technology, whereas the Rebellion had to make their own/steal it/copy designs since the very best the Empire had was illegal in any one else hands. The design of the ISD was superior because of its shape. The wedge shape of the ISD meant that the forward facing weapons and weapons on its flanks had wide fire arcs and could focus more of its weapons forward. While sacrificing firepower to its rear they had great firepower in every other direction. The Mon Cal however had its weapons evenly distributed over its flanks and had a very narrow frontal firearc. Its widest arc is its flanks which meant it would have to use broadsides and expose its entire length to the enemy, whereas the ISD, unless outnumbered could always keep its most dangerous side pointed at the enemy.

 

In EVERY publication or game (except EaW) the ISD has always had better armour with the same shielding as an MC and with greater firepower. In a LucasArts guide to ships, written from an Imperial perspective it stated a fight between the two would result in an ISD victory but two Mon Cals would defeat an ISD.

 

Mon Cals were more maneuverable, no argument there, and had many redundant systems but it needed them to stay in the fight.

 

The Mon Cals themselves werent not much better if it all when it came to combat. They still only operated in 2 dimensions like battles on water, as evidenced by the design of their ships. It was written somewhere that if any species had the ability to fight three dimensionally as you can do in space then they would have an advantage.

[darthcarth]

I agree, even in home world 2 a isd while it would tkae some hull damge because of weak sheilds would kill a mon cal cruiser through sheer fire power.

[Naso]

The ISD has always been very very powerful going back to the days of X-Wing. The ISD's weakness was never weak shields, it was the generators being able to be destroyed, which was why they had so many fighters. In a cap-ship match they should win hands-down, and as it is, their one hardpoint is far too easy to get with bombers and anything else with mass-drivers and torpedoes. It at least needs two hardpoints.