North Korea says nuclear test successful.

[Mace MacLeod]

Quoted from a letter to today's copy of the Irish Independant newspaper:

 

"America did nothing when Russia developed nuclear weapons. How could it? You can't bully a bully who has muscles as big and awesome as your own. And what about China? It has been a nuclear power for decades and its brutal, bloodthirsty, undemocratic regime and human rights records are not much better than those of North Korea.

 

But you won't hear talk from the corridors of power in the West of sanctions against the People's Republic. Why? Because China is strong enough militarily to tell the West to stuff its saber-rattling rhetoric. And it is considered a vital trading partner.

 

The mad, bad dictator Kim Jong-il is only doing what his American detractors, Chinese allies and former Russian allies have been getting away with for decades.

 

Kim Jong-il is just the bold boy who has learned some woefully bad habits from his elders if not betters."

 

John F.

Callan, Co. Kilkenny

[Jae Onasi]

Were nukes a sanctionable offense at the time all 3 powers developed them, however? I honestly don't know if it was or not.

Besides, sanctions against Russia and China would be about as effective as using a thimble to bail out a basement flood--they have too many resources for it to do any good.

 

edit: the irony of the export of luxury good things is hilarious.

[Mace MacLeod]

The ban on luxury goods is just something to piss off Kim directly. He's famous for living like a king; he's apparently the largest single consumer of Hennessy Cognac in the world.

[sockerbit89]

  Mace MacLeod said:

Quoted from a letter to today's copy of the Irish Independant newspaper:

 

"America did nothing when Russia developed nuclear weapons. How could it? You can't bully a bully who has muscles as big and awesome as your own. And what about China? It has been a nuclear power for decades and its brutal, bloodthirsty, undemocratic regime and human rights records are not much better than those of North Korea.

 

 

That's a bunch of total bull****. They can by no means compare the political situation in China with the ones in NK. In that case I could just as well compare the US politics and respect to human rights as equal to Russia's.

 

You know you'd think that super powers such as the US would have learned something from Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and the Gulf war etc. But no nothing. People are still ranting about forcing countries into democrazy in exactly the same way.

 

FREEEEDOOOM!!!! *booom bang bang booom*.... a ****... didn't work out this time either.

 

Give aid and knowledge to the NK people and maybe they wouldn't hate you guts so hard. What would millitary sanctions provide?

 

Kim's death? Yeah maybe but what would the people of NK feel about the US invading their country and slayng their semi-god? This is not a good way to bring democrazy to a country. This is how you create new terrorists.

[Q]

^^^

I disagree. The political situations of NK and China are very similar. Same utter disregard for human rights. Same cult-of-personality surrounding heads of state. The main differences are that NK is even more hard-line, and that China figured out how to make themselves more valuable to the outside world by flooding it with a bunch of cheap products of reasonable quality produced by near-slave labor and using the proceeds to feed their military build-up.

[Totenkopf]

  Mace MacLeod said:

The ban on luxury goods is just something to piss off Kim directly. He's famous for living like a king; he's apparently the largest single consumer of Hennessy Cognac in the world.

 

Unlikely, it will probably be imported across the Chinese border. They've already stated they aren't going to block the flow of good across the PRC-NK border. Another resounding success for the UN.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

  Quote

The mad, bad dictator Kim Jong-il is only doing what his American detractors, Chinese allies and former Russian allies have been getting away with for decades.

Nope, North Korea is far worse. China and Russia don't intentionally starve their own citizens. And, of course, there are things that China and Russia do that Kim doesn't do. China and Russia both occupy land illegally, North Korea doesn't (although it sure as Hell would like to).

 

Overall, though, I'd say North Korea is about a thousand times worse than China and Russia combined.

 

  Quote

You know you'd think that super powers such as the US would have learned something from Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and the Gulf war etc. But no nothing. People are still ranting about forcing countries into democrazy in exactly the same way.

On a small scale, too. Anyone hear about that law in Germany that forbade girls from wearing Muslim head-wear because it's considered "oppressive". Which it probably is to certain people, but Hell, you can't force them not to wear it. How free is that?

 

"You can't force people to be free."

[Jae Onasi]

  Dagobahn Eagle said:

On a small scale, too. Anyone hear about that law in Germany that forbade girls from wearing Muslim head-wear because it's considered "oppressive". Which it probably is to certain people, but Hell, you can't force them not to wear it. How free is that?

 

"You can't force people to be free."

 

I thought I heard they were contemplating something similar in the UK but I could be wrong.

That really bugs me, though, because it's an obvious violation of freedom of religion.

[Nancy Allen``]

I hate this, I really do, but I get nervous when I see Muslims at airports. You cannot help but think of September 11, which is probably part of the reason those Al Qaeda ****s did it in the first place, to make Muslims the target of suspecion.

[Ray Jones]

  Dagobahn Eagle said:

On a small scale, too. Anyone hear about that law in Germany that forbade girls from wearing Muslim head-wear because it's considered "oppressive". Which it probably is to certain people, but Hell, you can't force them not to wear it. How free is that?

Bullocks! That whole thing was originally about a muslimic teacher who wanted to wear a (muslimic) headscarf in school but was told not to do it and the discussion was about the question if teachers should be allowed to wear/propose religious "crap" in school or not.

It then went on to something like should headscarfs (by religious means) be "banned" from school? But as far as I know, there is no such law for girls, especially not outside of school. Besides, there was a discussion about getting rid of the cross in classrooms, too (err, but we usually don't have crosses in school anyway, but some schools have, especially in Bavaria, where this all came from).

 

So, talking about freedom? Yes, because school and religion -> no.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I meant in school. Should've been more specific:o.

[Ray Jones]

But you were *not*!

[sockerbit89]

  Qliveur said:

^^^

I disagree. The political situations of NK and China are very similar. Same utter disregard for human rights. Same cult-of-personality surrounding heads of state. The main differences are that NK is even more hard-line, and that China figured out how to make themselves more valuable to the outside world by flooding it with a bunch of cheap products of reasonable quality produced by near-slave labor and using the proceeds to feed their military build-up.

 

No.

 

It's true China has to work harder when it comes to human rights and a functioning democrazy. But to compare it with the worst dictatorship in the world is just plain wrong. Have you been to China in the last 30 years? Alot have happened since Mao you know. China is by no means whatsoever a communist state anylonger.

 

Also 1/4 of the entier world population is chinese of course their economy is racing why shouldn't it?

[Q]

  Quote

It's true China has to work harder when it comes to human rights and a functioning democrazy. But to compare it with the worst dictatorship in the world is just plain wrong. Have you been to China in the last 30 years? Alot have happened since Mao you know.

You're right. A lot HAS happened in the past 30 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

If this is this what you call working harder when it comes to human rights, then in that context I guess I would have to agree with you . A functioning democracy?

  Quote

China is by no means whatsoever a communist state anylonger.

You're right. It's a capitalist oligarchy.

  Quote

Also 1/4 of the entier world population is chinese of course their economy is racing why shouldn't it?

Because only a small minority benefits from the near-slavery of the vast majority of the population.

[Char Ell]

  sockerbit89 said:

Also 1/4 of the entier world population is chinese of course their economy is racing why shouldn't it?

According to the Population Reference Bureau the population of China is currently 1.3 billion while the population of the world is 6.5 billion. When I do the math I come up with 20% of the world's population living in China. So 1 in 5 people live in China, not 1 in 4.

[sockerbit89]

  cutmeister said:

According to the Population Reference Bureau the population of China is currently 1.3 billion while the population of the world is 6.5 billion. When I do the math I come up with 20% of the world's population living in China. So 1 in 5 people live in China, not 1 in 4.

 

Sorry I have extremly bad memory.

 

  Qilveur said:

You're right. It's a capitalist oligarchy.

 

Yes. My point: NK is totally diffrent.

 

 

  Qilveur said:

Because only a small minority benefits from the near-slavery of the vast majority of the population

 

Yes but atleast people don't have to eat eachother to survive. The social injustices in China isn't anything compared to what's happening in North Korea.

[Q]

OK, now I see your point: China has progressed where NK has remained stagnant. True.

 

If you read my previous posts, then you know that I believe that China will be instrumental in resolving this crisis peacefully.

[Mace MacLeod]

I knew it.

 

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20061020%2fkim_regret_061020&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

 

See? He's already backing down. You can all now stop breathing into paper bags.

Don't have to GOGOGO get 'em now.

[Windu Chi]

  Mace MacLeod said:

I knew it.

Yeah, whatever!

 

  MaceMacLeod said:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20061020%2fkim_regret_061020&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

 

See? He's already backing down. You can all now stop breathing into paper bags.

Don't have to GOGOGO get 'em now.

 

We will see: tick, tock, tick, tock, tick...

[Mace MacLeod]

  windu6 said:

Yeah, whatever!

Why do you think I wasn't the one demanding to invade North Korea, Mr. "The UN are cowards because they aren't blowing the place up right now"?

  Me said:

But even Kim, like the guy in Iran, must know that any attack on US allies or the US itself using nukes will result in the complete and utter annihilation of their own country and population. You really think they're that foolish?

And also windu6, I'm curious about which branch of the US military you're in. Are you in the army, navy, air force or marines?

[Nancy Allen``]

Also rank, unit, any field experience would be most interesting, and I'm not using a drop of sarcasm, I'd very much like to hear about it.

[Windu Chi]

  Mace MacLeod said:

And also windu6, I'm curious about which branch of the US military you're in. Are you in the army, navy, air force or marines?

If I was in the army I will probably be dead in Iraq as cannon fodder, the only navy I will join is a interstellar navy, I was going to join the air force when I was 18 yrs old but s**t happens.

[Mace MacLeod]

^^Well, you just seemed to be so eager for war that I figured you might actually want to be a part of it. Funny how all the actual soldiers and military personell I've met and known over the years aren't quite as gung-ho.