Jesus Camp - Religion or Brainwashing?

[jon_hill987]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

 

I hate seeing people who have been so warped they think it is right to kill people because of what someone wrote in a book 2000+ years ago.

 

How can words that were meant to inspire and help people lead better lives be twisted into such hate for your fellow man. I am far more scared of the Christan extremists in America than I am of Muslim extremists in the middle east.

 

If something isn't sorted out soon I believe there will come a second dark age where science and technology is heresy, reading and writing could even be banned. And I have heard that there are Christian extremists that actually want to start a world wide nuclear war because they believe all the unbelievers will go to hell and that they will be "reborn into Gods bosom" or some such rubbish, worryingly I hear some of them have George W's ear.

 

I'm not a Christian but I don't believe that this is what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Did you get this from Gamingforums, by any chance? The Pub there has an almost identical thread.

 

Spooky. Plain and simple. Children are too gullible to be indoctrinated this way. Heck, many adults are too gullible for this kind of thing. Sigh. They're training the kids to be fanatics, not to be questioning, sceptical people. It goes against everything democracy stands for.

[TK-8252]

All organized religion is essentially brainwashing. This is just much more militant.

[jon_hill987]

Did you get this from Gamingforums, by any chance? The Pub there has an almost identical thread.

 

No, I didn't.

 

 

 

All organized religion is essentially brainwashing

A good point but this somehow seems much worse than the usual.

 

 

Here is another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wgZGM9B

 

this comment by PirateEire sums it up for me

 

This is bats*** insane... These kids are being brainwashed like hell. Run while you can, Holly. Run!

[Windu Chi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

 

I hate seeing people who have been so warped they think it is right to kill people because of what someone wrote in a book 2000+ years ago.

 

How can words that were meant to inspire and help people lead better lives be twisted into such hate for your fellow man. I am far more scared of the Christan extremists in America than I am of Muslim extremists in the middle east.

 

If something isn't sorted out soon I believe there will come a second dark age where science and technology is heresy, reading and writing could even be banned. And I have heard that there are Christian extremists that actually want to start a world wide nuclear war because they believe all the unbelievers will go to hell and that they will be "reborn into Gods bosom" or some such rubbish, worryingly I hear some of them have George W's ear.

 

I'm not a Christian but I don't believe that this is what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.

Well, I am going to have to say Brainwashing, because those kids look like they was in a trance state.

I hate religion but I feel so bad for those kids future.

[Jae Onasi]

Don't know what this is--a 3 minute newscast, which undoubtedly was filled with whatever the editors thought would be the most eye-catching and/or sensational in order to attract viewers, isn't enough information for me to determine what the whole movement is all about. On the surface they look kind of flaky, but I'll reserve judgment til I can see something more in depth.

 

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?

[Emperor Devon]

Hmm, from what I've seen, I am very skeptical about this. But it's most likely because I disagree with everything they're preaching. The statement that they were being trained to become "warriors" had me unsure whether to raise an eyebrow or laugh. Certainly passionate for such young kids...

 

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?

 

I think it depends. If one of your kids said "Mama, I wanna be a Hindu. Can I stop going to church?" would you tell him/her to forget about those silly ideas, or say it's okay?

[Windu Chi]

 

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic?

 

I think he possibly is inferring that, Jae.

 

 

Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?

I will have to agree that it is a basic human right.

Even though I don't like religion.

Because I am trying to be fair.

[Jae Onasi]

I think it depends. If one of your kids said "Mama, I wanna be a Hindu. Can I stop going to church?" would you tell him/her to forget about those silly ideas, or say it's okay?

 

Not to dodge, but my kids haven't developed enough cognitively to have that kind of discussion. We raise them Christian, but we also recognize that when they're old enough, they may decide on another religion or no religion at all. In the meantime, we choose to give them a Christian base to build on.

We don't raise them in a cultural vacuum, however. Every now and then we'll talk about different countries and peoples, and since they're back in school I try to coordinate with what's going on there--they had a 'Day of the Dead' thing for Halloween, for instance, and it was my plan to do some Mexican stuff this weekend til the kitchen ceiling nearly fell on my head....

We have Lithuanian ancestors so we've checked out that country, and whenever Jimbo goes to another country for his annual 2 week training duty, he takes lots of pictures and gets some souvenirs that the kids can learn from, which is fun.

We've learned some Korean in Taekwondo and so we checked Korean culture out--minus the kimchee--fermented food--blech. At some point they'll learn that Buddhism is a significant religion in Korea and Islam is a big part of the culture in the Middle East. While I raise my kids Christian, I don't want them to be intolerant snots, so we'll learn about different groups and societies, including religion when the time is appropriate.

[Nancy Allen``]

Jesus Camp is wrong for one very simple reason: praying before Bush. It's classed as idol worship, I checked.

 

Whether the idea of Jesus Camp in itself is wrong, there are many other camps like this that preach being in a religious war, but seeing Jesus Camp the people who run it clearly take this notion to new levels. If we criticise Muslim teachings for being militant then certainly Jesus Camp is wrong in so far as it's the same thing except for Christianity. To be fair I don't believe that the people who run the camp are really calling for a Christian Jihad, but it's very easy for the impresionable including the children who attend these camps to take the messages out of context. We see this is militant Islam where terrorist based Jihad is forced in Middle Eastern countries. The camp organisers have a duty to put their message in the proper context, do they do this? If not then the camps are most definetly wrong.

[Windu Chi]

Jesus Camp is wrong for one very simple reason: praying before Bush. It's classed as idol worship, I checked.

 

Whether the idea of Jesus Camp in itself is wrong, there are many other camps like this that preach being in a religious war, but seeing Jesus Camp the people who run it clearly take this notion to new levels. If we criticise Muslim teachings for being militant then certainly Jesus Camp is wrong in so far as it's the same thing except for Christianity. To be fair I don't believe that the people who run the camp are really calling for a Christian Jihad, but it's very easy for the impresionable including the children who attend these camps to take the messages out of context. We see this is militant Islam where terrorist based Jihad is forced in Middle Eastern countries. The camp organisers have a duty to put their message in the proper context, do they do this? If not then the camps are most definetly wrong.

:lol: You probably maybe right, Nancy.

That camp probably was a training camp to support that sith Bush.

And those kids probably was being trained as discipline soldiers for that so called, "Army of God" I have heard so much of.

[Emperor Devon]

Not to dodge, but my kids haven't developed enough cognitively to have that kind of discussion. We raise them Christian, but we also recognize that when they're old enough, they may decide on another religion or no religion at all. In the meantime, we choose to give them a Christian base to build on.

 

Ah, now that's entering a bit of a gray area. Not to say that I disagree with how 9 or 6-year olds are a bit young to decide on their faith, though what age do you consider appropriate? 13? 15? 17? 29?

 

Or what if they get very serious about the matter, to the point of reading the Vedas and other Shastra?

 

Pretty gray, IMO. I started to have some doubts about God around that age, though it didn't develop into atheism until later.

 

We don't raise them in a cultural vacuum, however. Every now and then we'll talk about different countries and peoples, and since they're back in school I try to coordinate with what's going on there--they had a 'Day of the Dead' thing for Halloween, for instance, and it was my plan to do some Mexican stuff this weekend til the kitchen ceiling nearly fell on my head.... {snip}

 

Sounds like they're getting a good education on the outside world. Public schools don't do the best job at that IMO.

 

While I raise my kids Christian, I don't want them to be intolerant snots, so we'll learn about different groups and societies, including religion when the time is appropriate.

 

Since you said "we'll" are you saying that they've yet to learn about other groups and societies? You seemed to be implying the opposite earlier, or I'm just misinterpreting you.

[Nancy Allen``]

:lol: You probably maybe right, Nancy.

That camp probably was a training camp to support that sith Bush.

And those kids probably was being trained as discipline soldiers for that so called, "Army of God" I have heard so much of.

 

That might be the opinion of those who watch too much prequal Star Wars and V for Vendetta. The idea of Jesus Camp being some Bush orchastrated religious indoctranation, in all seriousness, is possible, but highly unlikely. If Bush were to run for another term (really he cannot, but if somehow he was able to) then you can make all the Palpatine and Sutler comparisons you wish and be dead on the money with stuff like Jesus Camp about.

[edlib]

On the one hand: Pretty scary stuff.

 

On the other hand: I think most of these kids will grow up, hit puberty, figure out that the world has a bit more to offer than the limited viewpoint being pushed by their parents and camp leaders, and moderate out their positions... if not leave the fold altogether.

 

In ten years most of these kids will probably be nothing more than slightly-more-religious-than-average teens,.. who have already experimented with sex, drugs, Rock & Roll, and other schools of thought... and come to far less extreme conclusions about life.

 

Oh... and as long as we're all doing clips:

"The best way to fight evil Islamic fanaticism, is with good Christian fanaticism." -Stephen Colbert (about the film: 'Jesus Camp')

[Rogue15]

heh the name for it 'kids on fire' kinda made me laugh. other than that, nothing unusual about it from my experience in christian school (2nd-6th grade)...i don't really see what the big deal is though, it's not like those kids won't grow up and discover how fubar the world really is...

 

and they're praying for bush, not to him.

[Jae Onasi]

Ah, now that's entering a bit of a gray area. Not to say that I disagree with how 9 or 6-year olds are a bit young to decide on their faith, though what age do you consider appropriate? 13? 15? 17? 29?

When they reach the point of cognitive development where they can handle critical thinking. That may be a different age for each kid, so I honestly don't know when that will be.

Or what if they get very serious about the matter, to the point of reading the Vedas and other Shastra?

Why not? Being Christian hasn't stopped me from reading a bit of the Koran, nor should it. There are not going to be too many limits on what they can read except for say, porn or extreme violence.

Pretty gray, IMO. I started to have some doubts about God around that age, though it didn't develop into atheism until later.l

What age? I figured you haven't reached 29 yet.

 

 

Sounds like they're getting a good education on the outside world. Public schools don't do the best job at that IMO.

 

Since you said "we'll" are you saying that they've yet to learn about other groups and societies? You seemed to be implying the opposite earlier, or I'm just misinterpreting you.

 

No, no misinterpreting, I wrote it badly. The joys of writing when I'm really tired. We do simple culture stuff now, like the foods (homemade hummus and shawarmas, tamales, pierogies, all are fabulous), the flags, holidays, the simple stuff. So like on Cinco de Mayo, we'll do Mexican food and pull out our little Mexican flag (because I did have a semi-uber adventure in Mexico, too), and look at vacation pictures of the Mayan site we visited. Last Christmas, we researched some Lithuanian customs and did a couple things on Christmas Eve from that. I just want to make the learning fun right now instead of making it work.

Later on we can handle the more complex issues like politics and religious issues.

[Mace MacLeod]

...

 

"Kids on Fire". Wow...my nutball-o-meter just went off the scale.

 

"Jesus loves me

He loves me a whole bunch

That's why he puts Skippy

In my lunch."

[jon_hill987]

it's not like those kids won't grow up and discover how fubar the world really is...

 

I don't agree, that brainwashing could last for life (assuming they are not deprogrammed), they will not be able to form their own opinions when they are older.

 

One kid in that video was saying "no more, no more" on abortion, an issue she looked too young to understand let alone have an opinion on. It looked more like a conditioned response, just like you could get with hypnotism. And I think it would stick.

 

On a side note; anyone got a link to the full documentary? I couldn't find it online anywhere, but I'm sure it is by now..

[Mace MacLeod]

Also think about an old slogan of the Jesuits:

 

"Give us a child for six years, and they'll be ours forever."

[Dagobahn Eagle]

According to Richard Dawkins, it's "give me the child for his first seven years, and I will give you the man". Just to nit-pick.

 

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?

So's freedom of speech, but you'd think it'd be slightly strange to teach a six-year old about Bush, wouldn't you?

[Dagobahn Eagle]

According to Richard Dawkins, it's "give me the child for his first seven years, and I will give you the man". Just to nit-pick.

 

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?

So's freedom of speech, but you'd think it'd be slightly strange to teach a six-year old about Bush, wouldn't you?

[Emperor Devon]

When they reach the point of cognitive development where they can handle critical thinking. That may be a different age for each kid, so I honestly don't know when that will be.

 

It would fit the definition of democratic, then, if you wouldn't try to impose any Christian beliefs (going to church, praying, no meat on Sundays) on them if they decided to follow another (or no) religion when they reached that age.

 

Why not? Being Christian hasn't stopped me from reading a bit of the Koran, nor should it. There are not going to be too many limits on what they can read except for say, porn or extreme violence.

 

There's how most people outside of a religion don't read the holy book it has. I've read some but not all of the Bible for instance.

 

What age? I figured you haven't reached 29 yet.

 

9. I've not reached the age that comes 20 years later, thankfully.

 

{snip} Later on we can handle the more complex issues like politics and religious issues.

 

Ah, I see.

[Emperor Devon]

When they reach the point of cognitive development where they can handle critical thinking. That may be a different age for each kid, so I honestly don't know when that will be.

 

It would fit the definition of democratic, then, if you wouldn't try to impose any Christian beliefs (going to church, praying, no meat on Sundays) on them if they decided to follow another (or no) religion when they reached that age.

 

Why not? Being Christian hasn't stopped me from reading a bit of the Koran, nor should it. There are not going to be too many limits on what they can read except for say, porn or extreme violence.

 

There's how most people outside of a religion don't read the holy book it has. I've read some but not all of the Bible for instance.

 

What age? I figured you haven't reached 29 yet.

 

9. I've not reached the age that comes 20 years later, thankfully.

 

{snip} Later on we can handle the more complex issues like politics and religious issues.

 

Ah, I see.

[Rogue15]

I don't agree, that brainwashing could last for life (assuming they are not deprogrammed), they will not be able to form their own opinions when they are older.

 

One kid in that video was saying "no more, no more" on abortion, an issue she looked too young to understand let alone have an opinion on. It looked more like a conditioned response, just like you could get with hypnotism. And I think it would stick.

 

 

I somewhat agree there, as there are people out there that think if you don't go to church, that you're living in sin/ going to hell.

 

I don't go to church, I used to go on and off, but since i moved to a different area it's been about 5 years, and I HATE when people are all religous about going, like what's the freaking point of it, it doesn't make you a better person for going, it ends up being more of a social club. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

As for the children, maybe it is better promoting life over death? But yeah to go to the extreme saying 'YOU ARE GOING TO HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!111111 IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE!!!!!! sure that gets their attention, but when they grow up, it will be like saying 'there's monsters out in the woods' or 'santa clause brought you something' which is completely wrong, instead they should be living a 'love thy neighbor as thyself' and 'love god with all your heart' as those 2 commandments is all you need the rest falls into place.

[Rogue15]

I don't agree, that brainwashing could last for life (assuming they are not deprogrammed), they will not be able to form their own opinions when they are older.

 

One kid in that video was saying "no more, no more" on abortion, an issue she looked too young to understand let alone have an opinion on. It looked more like a conditioned response, just like you could get with hypnotism. And I think it would stick.

 

 

I somewhat agree there, as there are people out there that think if you don't go to church, that you're living in sin/ going to hell.

 

I don't go to church, I used to go on and off, but since i moved to a different area it's been about 5 years, and I HATE when people are all religous about going, like what's the freaking point of it, it doesn't make you a better person for going, it ends up being more of a social club. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

As for the children, maybe it is better promoting life over death? But yeah to go to the extreme saying 'YOU ARE GOING TO HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!111111 IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE!!!!!! sure that gets their attention, but when they grow up, it will be like saying 'there's monsters out in the woods' or 'santa clause brought you something' which is completely wrong, instead they should be living a 'love thy neighbor as thyself' and 'love god with all your heart' as those 2 commandments is all you need the rest falls into place.