Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win

[S_W_LeGenD]

Wow! now you suddenly claim to know everything. "Very smart"!

 

First, I have never claimed the One was an idiot, so stop putting words in my mouth. I realized ships crashed there and he took weapons and studied about them, but as I have said in the past, he had never seen the Force in action. And you're wrong about Force Lightning. It hits several enemies at a time, but only in a limited arc in front of you. The only difference between Force Storm and Force Lightning is that Force Sotrm hits all enemies around the attacker and not just in front of him. And btw, I have all my information in my head, it's just that you refuse to listen.

And? Revan actually demonstrated Force Storm because his power hit several Rakatan warriors from above, as The One said that "your power came down from the Sky and slaughtered many of my warriors". He was actually telling that Revan's Force attack hit several of his warriors from above their heads and this explains something. Normal Force Lightning does not hits it's target from above as it goes straight towards the target.

 

Thus my point stands.

 

Wake up call- not everything on Wikipedia is canon material. People can go post whatever they want on there.

It's an unofficial Star Wars source, which mostly relies on Canon material and you can't just openly Edit information in it, as owners of that Source watch these kinds of changes very clearly and they take actions accordingly. It is not like wikipedia actually.

 

And owners of that source certainly know a lot more about Star Wars then you do.

 

My claims do have a base, and that's logical thinking.

So do mine as well (as they are backed by some sources at-least) but you fail to understand my points or logic used behind them.

 

Mind Domination...Pretty much the same thing as Dominate Mind. Obi-Wan had it, as we see in Episode 4. Just because someone is an influential person does not mean they have a highly advanced form of Dominate Mind. Do you think Malak had this Mind Domination. He recruited plenty of Jedi to fight in the Mandalorian War.

He learns this power actually. And in KOTOR, "Dominate Mind" is only reserved for our main character actually. And their is a logical reason behind this, which only Bioware developers can explain.

 

Fair enough. Since I don't know much about Thought Bombs I don't really have much to say about that, but I certainly know that Revan was not the one who discovered this power.

But Revan learned it as well.

 

Yes I know what telekinesis means. You don't have to treat me like a 5 year old.

Know you don't or otherwise you don't have to argue on this part.

 

Uh...that is certainly not unique to Revan. I'm positive that Nihilus knew that too, so no advantage for Revan there.

Of-course, both of them have this ability.

 

My eyes are plenty open. Perhaps you should cut down on the little immature jabs.

No they are not actually and thats why you keep on arguing on pitty matters as well.

 

Where exactly does it say that he has drain knowledge. From your list of powers that Revan supposedly has, it seems that you're just assuming that he has it. Don't jump to conclusions without some hard evidence to back it up.

"Logic" and "Reasoning" certainly lacks in you. This power was commonly used by many Sith in KOTOR era, as even normal Dark Jedi demonstrated this power. So stop acting like someone, who always needs spoon-feeding.

 

Ah...another little immature jab. Read it again and you'll see that my point was that not all people who learn a lot from somewhere suddenly have Drain Knowledge. I know only Sith use it, but that doesn't mean that some might have the capability but they just don't use it. And also, Drain Knowledge would really have no impact on a 1 on 1 fight with Nihilus.

I am not discussing fight with Nihilus now and check your high-lighted line here. Some people know it but they don't use it most often. Revan became a Sith after landing on Malachor and he would learn this power as well as it was a common practise among Sith of his age.

 

I'll say it again, Darth Bane's opinion is not canonical material. Now if the author of that book stated that what Bane learned surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Lorriban, then I would believe it. But, it says, "in his opinion" (referring to Bane), Revan's teachings surpassed the Korriban Academy. Until there is some big announcement that says Darth Bane knows everything, then I won't believe that what he thinks is canon.

Wow! some of you can trust Kreia's opinions but some of you cannot trust Darth Bane's opinion. What kind of Bias is this?

 

Every bit of detail in POD Novel is canon including personal opinions of Bane. The writer tried to tell you this information in a realistic manner and thus he made it sound like that it was not just writer's opinion but also the opinion of the main character in his Novel. Get this now?

 

When I get around to it, I'll play it again.

Good enough!

[Titanius Anglesmith]

And? Revan demonstrated Force Storm because his power hits Rakatan warriors from above, as The One said that "your power came down from the Sky". he was actually telling that Revan's attack hit his warriors from above.

 

Thus my point stands.

 

You just made my point. I know how Force Storm works. My point was that Revan had regular Force Storm just like any other powerful Sith.

 

And owners of that source certainly know a lot more about Star Wars then you do.

 

I never claimed to more about Star Wars than the owners of that source. All I'm saying is that not everything on Wikipedia or Wookieepedia is canon.

 

He learns this power actually. And in KOTOR, "Dominate Mind" is only reserved for our main character actually. And their is a logical reason behind this, which only Bioware developers can explain.[.quote]

 

If you look a little closer at the article you provided, you will see that it says Revan moved on to gain Dominate Mind. It says nothing about a special Mind Dominance power.

 

Know you don't or otherwise you don't have to argue on this part.

 

No they are not actually and thats why you keep on arguing on pitty matters as well.

 

Uh...you can quit denying it. I know what it means. If you think my eyes aren't open because I do not share the same opinions as you do, you're dead wrong. My eyes are open, I just see things a little differently.

 

"Logic" and "Reasoning" certainly lacks in you. This power was commonly used by many Sith in KOTOR era, even normal Dark Jedi demonstrated this power. So stop acting like someone, who always needs spoon-feeding.

 

Ok...so what? The topic of this discussion is Revan vs. Nihilus. We're supposed to be giving reasons as to why we think one or the other would win. It seems that you have been straying away from that. You keep providing me with this handful of powers, some of which were common among Jedi/Sith of that age, that Revan has, which would not give him an advantage over Nihilus.

 

I am not discussing fight with Nihilus now and your high-lighted line is what I am trying to say. Some people know it but they don't use it most often. Revan became a Sith after landing on Malachor and he would learn this power as well as it was common practise among Sith.

 

Well maybe you should start: give me some reasons why you think Revan would win: not whether you think he has a lot of good Force powers.

 

You can trust Kreia's opinion but you cannot trust Darth Bane's opinion. What kind of Bias is this?

 

Yes actually that's right. I believe more of what Kreia said than I do Bane. That is not bias, that is opinion. I have the right to believe that just as much as you have the right to believe what Bane says and not what Kreia says (that is, if you do).

[S_W_LeGenD]

You just made my point. I know how Force Storm works. My point was that Revan had regular Force Storm just like any other powerful Sith.

Ok! finally we settle on something, which is good.

 

And very few Sith have canonically demonstrated this power actually, as most has demonstrated regular Force Lightning. Sidious and Bane knew this power though. And Revan's demonstration of this power is part of the (Story) of KOTOR, so it is canon.

 

I never claimed to more about Star Wars than the owners of that source. All I'm saying is that not everything on Wikipedia or Wookieepedia is canon.

Wikipedia is sometimes objectionable in its information but now it has started improving a lot. But Wookieepedia is fully reliable as the sources it's owners use for the information are mostly canon. You can note this in Wookieepedia's "sources" section.

 

If you look a little closer at the article you provided, you will see that it says Revan moved on to gain Dominate Mind. It says nothing about a special Mind Dominance power.

Ok! may be my explanation was little confusing.

 

Uh...you can quit denying it. I know what it means. If you think my eyes aren't open because I do not share the same opinions as you do, you're dead wrong. My eyes are open, I just see things a little differently.

Well since you understand things from a little different perspective then I can understand that some of my explanations took time for you to grab.

 

Ok...so what? The topic of this discussion is Revan vs. Nihilus. We're supposed to be giving reasons as to why we think one or the other would win. It seems that you have been straying away from that. You keep providing me with this handful of powers, some of which were common among Jedi/Sith of that age, that Revan has, which would not give him an advantage over Nihilus.

Both of these Sith Lords are very powerful indeed.

 

But my point is that if Revan makes the first move with his force abilities, then he wins. But if Nihilus launches his attack first then Nihilus wins.

 

Well maybe you should start: give me some reasons why you think Revan would win: not whether you think he has a lot of good Force powers.

I have mentioned my final view above. Revan can hit Nihilus from many yards back with his Force Storm capability and over-power Nihilus. And in this case, Revan will get the upper-hand.

 

Yes actually that's right. I believe more of what Kreia said than I do Bane. That is not bias, that is opinion. I have the right to believe that just as much as you have the right to believe what Bane says and not what Kreia says (that is, if you do).

Your choice but that does not makes my point wrong either.

 

And no hard feelings for you! so Chill!

[Titanius Anglesmith]

But my point is that if Revan makes the first move with his force abilities, then he wins. But if Nihilus launches his attack first then Nihilus wins.

 

Well yea, whoever strikes first would win. They are both powerful enough to kill each other quickly, it's just that I'm almost positive that Nihilus would strike first, since his power covers a much greater distance than Revan's.

 

I have mentioned my final view above. Revan can hit Nihilus from many yards back with his Force Storm capability and over-power Nihilus. And in this case, Revan will get the upper-hand.

 

True, Revan can strike from a few yards away, but Nihilus can launch his power from his orbiting ship to encompass an entire planet, so that's a bit bigger range.

 

Your choice but that does not makes my point wrong either.

 

And no hard feelings for you! so Chill!

 

Neither one of us is wrong on this point, we each have our own opinions.

 

And I'm very chilled. I've remained calm throughout this whole thing, it's just that when someone comes across as a Revan fan-boy, I get a little frustrated. Nothing against you, I just like a little healthy debate occasionally.

[JawaJoey]

S_W_LegenD... Have you ever played KOTOR? Did you ever get Force storm? I can't believe some of the things you're claiming. Revan had it, just like any powerful Sith would. The Exile could have it, Kreia could have it, Juhani could have it for crying out loud. And the One's description of Revan's power fits exactly with what it should be. Force storm strikes multiple enemies, simultaneously, from above, and does a lot of damage.

 

Nihilus certainly would be able to use Force Storm himself, and there isn't really any evidence that either one would be significantly better at it than the other. If Revan was in range to do it on Nihilus, Nihilus would be in range to do it on Revan. And if they were in range, then Nihilus' drain power would be in range as well, assuming it worked like that. And that's the question.

 

Assuming that Nihilus' drain power does not work as a direct attack in close combat, Force Storm doesn't provide any advantage one way or the other. Revan would probably win, because he is the superior swordsman and is smarter.

Assuming Nihilus' drain power DOES work in close combat, the force storm point it moot because Nihilus would be able to use it on Revan right away anyways.

[S_W_LeGenD]

S_W_LegenD... Have you ever played KOTOR? Did you ever get Force storm? I can't believe some of the things you're claiming. Revan had it, just like any powerful Sith would. The Exile could have it, Kreia could have it, Juhani could have it for crying out loud. And the One's description of Revan's power fits exactly with what it should be. Force storm strikes multiple enemies, simultaneously, from above, and does a lot of damage.

Yes! I have played KOTOR many times. And Revan's demonstration of Force Storm power is mentioned in a narration by an individual (The One), which is part of the KOTOR Story and thus becomes canon and is also mentioned in some sources. And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.

 

And most of the Sith Lords have demonstrated regular Force Lightning and some even have demonstrated "Chain Lightning". But this does not means that they were weak or something. And people often confuse "Chain Lightning" with "Force Storm".

 

A brief on "Chain Lightning":

 

Chain Lightning was a variation of the Force Lightning ability, with the difference being that the lightning was able to strike one person and then move to another or several others. As it was more powerful than the standard lightning, it required a greater amount of discipline and concentration to project and sustain the stream of lightning. Notable users include the lightning-trained Sith Cultist.

 

As an example: Malak actually demonstrated "Chain Lightning" but still his power was devastating.

 

Other then this, we do not have any narrations or proper indications regarding Exile, Kreia or any other character in KOTOR games having this power. In gameplay, you can learn any power but it has nothing to do with canon until a power is specially reserved for your character and Force Storm is not specially reserved for anyone.

 

Also, remember that gameplay is not canon. You can learn anything in it.

 

Nihilus certainly would be able to use Force Storm himself, and there isn't really any evidence that either one would be significantly better at it than the other. If Revan was in range to do it on Nihilus, Nihilus would be in range to do it on Revan. And if they were in range, then Nihilus' drain power would be in range as well, assuming it worked like that. And that's the question.

It's just an assumption from you that Nihilus would know Force Storm as their are no narrations or sources that confirm this.

 

Canonically he knows:

 

- Super Force Drain

- Stasis Power

- Telekinetic Abilities

- Force Push

- Bond knowledge

- Telepathic Communication

 

Assuming that Nihilus' drain power does not work as a direct attack in close combat, Force Storm doesn't provide any advantage one way or the other. Revan would probably win, because he is the superior swordsman and is smarter.

Force Storm canonically does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. So, do not under-estimate its effectiveness.

 

And I agree that Revan is a superior swordsman and smarter.

 

Assuming Nihilus' drain power DOES work in close combat, the force storm point it moot because Nihilus would be able to use it on Revan right away anyways.

Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.

[Emperor Devon]

And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.

 

I recall The One mentioning that, though the timing is excluded. For all we know, Revan could have been electrocuting the Rakata for hours.

 

Given how this is only one vague statement given by someone was in total awe of the Force, I would doubt the credibility.

 

Notable users include the lightning-trained Sith Cultist.[/i][/b]

 

In JA, the Sith Cultists trained in that used the same, standard high-level lightning that Palpatine and Desann used.

 

Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.

 

I have the feeling Nihilus would be the quicker of the two. Unless you can explain how he was able to kill at least several Jedi Masters at once.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I recall The One mentioning that, though the timing is excluded. For all we know, Revan could have been electrocuting the Rakata for hours.

 

Given how this is only one vague statement given by someone was in total awe of the Force, I would doubt the credibility.

No! The One indicated that his warriors were killed in a single attack by Revan and several sources also back this. And after this attack happened, The One thought that Revan would be a useful guy and he asked for Revan's help in his fight against the Elders (regarding getting the secrets to enter the Temple). But this assistance never came.

 

And when you meet him again, The One remembers you, explains you about your past encounter with his forces and your promise and then again asks you to assist him in his fight against the Elders. So he was sure and clear about all things.

 

In JA, the Sith Cultists trained in that used the same, standard high-level lightning that Palpatine and Desann used.

That brief is about "Chain Lightning". And people often confuse this power with the "Force Storm".

 

Canonically; Revan and Bane have demonstrated Force Storm. Their would be some others as well but I have not explored so much.

[Emperor Devon]

No! The One indicated that his warriors were killed in a single attack by Revan and several sources also back this.

 

"They tried to take you prisoner, but you unleashed your magic - what you called the Force - upon them. Seeing your power they bowed before you and brought you here to me."

 

"You came to us after defeating our scouts who confronted you, much as you have again this time. The One saw your power... and your desire for the knowledge inside the Temple."

 

That's about as specific as it gets.

 

Canonically; Revan and Bane have demonstrated Force Storm. Their would be some others as well but I have not explored so much.

 

It's all just Force lightning, really. Some Sith have just mastered it to a higher degree than others (such as the small single arc beams in Legacy compared to Palpatine).

 

You appear to have agreed that Nihilus would be quicker, by the way.

[jonathan7]

Read my above points before making baseless conclusions. Because my points are backed by some sources.

 

ROFL I have read the entire thread (I might have forgotten some stuff as its a very long thread), Basically m8, half of what you say is based on Wiki, which is hardly the best of places to source. If i sourced any of my lab reports or essays for uni on that I would get a fail. Then the other half on The One, who was a dude who ate people; yes he may have been inteligent, but hes nothing short of primitive because of that. He had also never seen the force, so Force Storm, is just the lightning power in TSL which means you can hit multiple enemies, abit like force wave.

 

Also generally when an awful lot of people argue against you, your wrong. If your trying to claim Revan was more powerful than Yoda, Anakin or Luke or Sidious your having a complete giraffe, I could perhaps understand an argument against Mace and Obi-Wan, but even then I think those two are stronger than Revan.

 

Anyway in conclusion you love Revan, and are blinded by your emotion. I personally believe the Exile would have Revan in a one on one fight, as I have stated before. But I presume there is no way you could possibly accept this. Revan would loose to Nihilus end of. I personally dont think any normal force powers would work against Nihilus because like the exile he was caused at Malachor VI.

[JawaJoey]

Yes! I have played KOTOR many times. And Revan's demonstration of Force Storm power is mentioned in a narration by an individual (The One), which is part of the KOTOR Story and thus becomes canon and is also mentioned in some sources. And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.

----

And most of the Sith Lords have demonstrated regular Force Lightning and some even have demonstrated "Chain Lightning". But this does not means that they were weak or something. And people often confuse "Chain Lightning" with "Force Storm".

-----

It's just an assumption from you that Nihilus would know Force Storm as their are no narrations or sources that confirm this.

----

Force Storm canonically does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. So, do not under-estimate its effectiveness.

----

Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.

 

Yes, Revan has force storm as the One described, ie plain old Force Storm. That's what I said.

----

Where did weakness come from? Who called Sith Lords weak for having lightning?

Out of curiosity, where is the canon material that mentions chain lightning. It seems to be just a natural extension of Force Lightning, one that can hit multiple people, in one way or another. The only "Chain Lightning" I know of is in WoW.

----

Yeah, Nihilus could have it, and one would assume that any proper Sith does, but there is indeed no canonical evidence. It doesn't really matter though. It is undoubtedly a matter of Nihilus just not wanting to do it, since its a relatively common and basic Sith ability, particularly for Sith lords. Whether he can or does isn't important to the fight, because if he needed to, he probably could, and would be capable enough to defend against it at least somewhat regardless.

----

1. Where are you getting that canonical information? Not from KOTOR, I hope, because its not there. Also, Sidious torturing Luke is different from Revan exterminating primitives.

2. I'm not underestimating its effectiveness. Force Storm is awesome. I'm saying it would not be a terribly huge factor in the Nihilus fight. Without force drain, it would be one of many factors, and one of the lesser ones, that would mean Revan wins. With force drain, it most likely wouldn't help.

----

Yes. Also, if Nihilus and Revan launch their attacks at the same time, Nihilus wins. If Revan attacks first, but doesn't kill Nihilus before Nihilus attacks back, then Nihilus wins.

Assuming that Nihilus' power works suddenly in close combat, of course.

If Revan can't one shot Nihilus before Nihilus can do his move, (which I highly doubt Revan could do with Force Storm), then Nihilus wins.

 

 

 

By the way, jonathan7- Having a giraffe? What the HELL does that mean? Is that a foreign expression, or some sort of crazy freudian slip?

[jonathan7]

By the way, jonathan7- Having a giraffe? What the HELL does that mean? Is that a foreign expression, or some sort of crazy freudian slip?

 

Hehe, it means having a laugh, but in a bad way... its abit of slang from the area of England I'm from

[The Sith'ari]

This is a very long thread with loads of arguments. And obviously it's not coming to any conclusion, because

 

1) People's perceptions on Revan's power differ widely, based on what they like to believe. How do you compare Obiwan, Yoda, Vader... etc with a jedi who lived 4000 years ago? They exist in different contexts, and any comparison would have to be mostly arbitrary. We can only be sure that Revan is very powerful in HIS time while Palpy is the ultimate sith lord in HIS time. There's really no point in arguing anymore.

 

2) We do not know how Nihilus initiate his force-sucking power. How fast is it? Does it work only when Nihilus is undistracted? We do not know. All we know is that the jedi masters in Katarr did NOT see Nihilus when attacked (see my previous post). Any speculation thereafter is up to you.

 

We all have our very valid reasons to believe in what we believe. Case closed.

 

BTW, CSI:Nihilus, your sig made me laugh.

[jonathan7]

But we can keep trying to persuade each other ;-)

 

Don't get me wrong I think Revan was a much better Sith Lord than Nihilus, Revan was a better leader, a better lightsaber fighter and a great tactition. But I think that Nihilus power was such that anyone other than the Exile going up against him would be futile, hence the whole point of TSL game, as if anyone else could of done it then you would have no need for the Exile. Just like in K1 where Revan was the only Jedi/Sith capable of defeating Malak and the Star Forge defences.

 

I still believe Revan to be the better over all leader, and supreme commander, but the exile the better fighter, but thats my personally opinion. On this however I think Nihilus would win, as I don't think conventional force powers would work against him, and i don't think his power would take long against a foe. But there ya go

[Vaelastraz]

I have the feeling Nihilus would be the quicker of the two. Unless you can explain how he was able to kill at least several Jedi Masters at once.

 

Now that would not require any quickness at all. I'd say he just brought his ship in orbit around that planet, then he consumed the world killing everything. I'm sure there was no fight between the masters and Nihilus.

 

You all seem to think, Revan would not be capable of killing the Jedi Masters...

But Kreia is? She killed 3 Jedi Master Council members instantly at once, one of them being a popular and definitly highly skilled Master. Does that make her more powerful than Revan? Or perhaps Revan learned that skill as well.. after all he was at the Trayus academy, and that's where I think Kreia learned that ability...

[Jediphile]

Then blame Obsidian for that and not me. Because we already have got various indications that Malachor V corrupts those who dare walk on its surface.

 

We already have indications that Malachor V can corrupt any individual. So if Obsidian have shown otherwise then it is their fault for such contradictions.

 

I have not blamed you for anything. I've just suggested that your conclusion of what happened to Revan on Malachor V might be somewhat exaggerated based on what else we know of Malachor V. Besides, to suggest contradiction on Obsidian's part seems a bit unreasonable to me consideirng that TSL is the only source to ever explore the planet. Granted, it was introduced in K1, but only as the name of the place where the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars took place - other than that, we learned nothing about it in K1. Even Wookieepedia mentions its use on in the games and in the TSL chronicles (which is also KotOR2) and in the "New Essential Chronology", where it would be mentioned. This means that TSL is the only source that really explores Malachor V, and so that the writers of the game are the only ones to delve into its mysteries. I don't think that leaves much room for contradictions, and given the choice between your assumptions about what happened to Revan and their facts about the place, I'd be more inclined to go with the latter. Sorry.

 

I did not made that information by myself and being sensitive does not translates in to word "weak" because he was not weak. And being cast out of Jedi Order does not makes any individual Evil by default. He was fighting to save The Republic from its doom, so it was a noble act.

 

It's a matter of opinion, then. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that Revan served a higher and benevolent goal at the time, and I also agree that he was justified in going to war. As Kreia says, "The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war." But note in which context she says that:

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

 

The Mandalorians were a great threat to the Republic, and Revan was determined not to let the Republic fall. But in being so determined, I also think that Revan, even before he fell to the dark side on Malachor V, made some compromises. He would go to any length to save the Republic. He was willing to make sacrifices, a trait that Canderous would later praise him for.

 

In short, Revan accepted a "the ends justifies the means"-approach, and however justified he may have been in that regard for the sake of whatever noble and greater purpose, that choice alone will put him at odds with the grander principles of the light side, I think. Revan put his own choices and goals above anything else, and even though those goals may have been benevolent in a greater perspective, it still means that he puts his own desires, plans, and opinions above that of anyone else.

 

And that is Kreia's point - it doesn't matter what mask Revan wears or what others think of him, because it's still Revan in the end. But with that observation, it naturally follows, that Revan then does not follow or even aspire to the greater goals of the jedi order or even the light side itself - to follow your own motivations above all else is not the way of the light side.

 

So Revan compromised. As understandable as that might be under the circumstances, it does not make him a great servant of the light, because Revan was trying to save the Republic, not adhere to the greater will of the light side of the Force. If he had to compromise with his own adherence to the light side, then so be it.

 

That the masters themselves are arrogant and fearful at the same time is immaterial, because Revan is not swayed by their arguments. And just because they may not be true followers of the light themselves, that does not mean that Revan is either.

 

Sacred ground to them how? Did they worshipped the ancients?

 

Actually, I shouldn't have said that, because it gives the wrong impression. My apologies. But Malachor V was forbidden to the Mandalorians. Part IX of the TSL Chronicles mentions the following:

 

"Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on."

 

It seems the Mandalorians were forbidden to go there, because they simply realised something dangerous lurked there. Either way, it was forbidden for them to set foot on the planet. This part of the chronicles is more extensive, but I'll get to it later, since it speaks to Revan's corruption on Malachor V.

 

It depends that how sensitive an individual is to such an exposure. Details in games can often contradict with details provided by other sources. And if that information is from a higher canon source then it is more accurate.

 

And what "higher canon source" would that be? TSL is the only source EVER explore Malachor V in detail. That could change, but since the planet canonically ceases to exist at the end of TSL, I doubt it, unless it is explored in pre-KotOR2 material.

 

He would be more sensitive to such an exposure and I also mentioned the line "due to unknown reasons". And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V, so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force. And why don't you read those lines properly and explain to me that what it actually mean't?

 

Reasons are unknown but he survived by giving in to the Dark Side and feeding on those DS energies.

 

Me? Forgive me, but I'm not the one to infer that Revan's corruption on Malachor V says a lot about how powerful he must have been.

 

And you really leave me no option but to question your train of thought. I mean, I can agree with you, when you say,

 

And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V,

 

But when you then say:

 

so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force.

 

then I can't follow you. While I agree with the first statement, I fail to see how it can lead you to reach the conclusion you reach in the second statement. Sorry, but I just don't see it. I see no basis for concluding that Revan feeding on dark side energies on Malachor V is proof that he has great power in the Force.

 

I suppose the most canonic source on this that we have are the TSL chronicles. The following is from Part IX: Darth Revan Rising:

 

"It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

 

Now, there are several problems here that actually allow us to discard the entire text. For one, it calls Revan a jedi master, and we know that Revan was never a jedi master - he was still a young jedi, when he fell to the dark side. It also says that a stronghold is "immediately constructed" on Malachor V. Since it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that this place is the Trayus Academy, that's not entirely true, given that the academy has been there for centuries if not millennia. After all, the ancient lore of the Sith is what drew Revan's attention in the first place. So it would probably be more accurate to say that the academy was rebuilt and strengthened into a stronghold.

 

Anyway, I'll grant you that Revan's will saved him from death, because that's basically what it says. I don't see that it says something highly unusual about Revan's powers, though. It just says that he was a very strong-willed person, which I have never disagreed with. In fact, I don't recall anyone here saying otherwise. Will and determination are close concepts, and both are defining traits for Revan. They are not, however, related to the Force as such. The Mandalorians were also strong-willed and determined. Probably less so than Revan, but even so. So you don't need to be force-sensitive at all for that to be true.

 

And surviving by will, to me, is just a test for Revan - the dark side won't tolerate weakness. It won't abide Revan's light sided ideals, either, so the only way Revan will be allowed to live is to abandon the light side and demonstrate true potential. Both requires strength of will, and in that sense, it is true that Revan survives by will alone - will to survive by willfully sacrificing his own benevolence.

 

To me, the scene is very much like the scene in "Tales of the Jedi: The Dark Lords of the Sith" (issue 3), when Exar Kun finally abandons the light and embraces the dark side. Nadd's spirit tricks Exar Kun into a valley or gorge, where Nadd unleashes an avalance upon Kun, shattering his body completely. Exar Kun is doomed. The only way he can save his life is to abandon the light and turn to the dark side to save himself. But doing so will cost him his very soul. Both Nadd and Kun know this. Kun even tries to reach out to Master Ood. But it is to no avail. Kun must accept the darkness and reject the light, and it is not a simple choice. Merely saying that he accepts does not do the trick. He must accept it in his heart, and that takes will.

 

To me it was the same for Revan - he could not survive by accepting the dark side while holding onto some of the light. It took will to abandon the light completely, and Revan demonstrated that. Revan is not entirely consumed, however, because he manages to hold onto his own goals. He won't abandon his goal of saving the Republic from the Mandalorians, but then that is not a goal at odds with the dark side as such, and so Revan can hold onto that without being being killed by the dark side.

 

As we see, the goal does become twisted, however, since now Revan wants to conquer and rule the Republic himself, rather than merely save it from the Mandalorians. Ok, true, Revan also discovers the existence of the "true Sith" and so may have rationalized that it was necessary to prepare the Republic for that war too, which meant conquering the Republic itself first. But to me that is still the dark side twisting Revan's goals. If Revan's goal was to protect the Republic by destroying the Mandalorians and then the "true Sith", then why didn't he use the Star Forge to create a fleet that he then used to attack the "true Sith"? The only answer I can think of is that the dark side twisted his goals in this regard also.

 

Revan's powers are not fully known yet but we know that he was a powerful force user and some of his powers are already known;

 

- Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)

- Force Lightning Storm (Demonstrated in Lehon)

- Mind Domination (Power to convince many)

- Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)

- Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon)

- Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)

 

Force Lightning may not be known to all Sith lords, though I'd agree they are likely to. I'll accept that at least pre-KotOR1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, since the One clearly mentions it. However, this is simply Force Storm as seen in the games. The only reference you have made to this power is clearly to the games themselves, in which case its only advantage to Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of an arc in front of him. However, both powers do exactly the same amount of damage. The link you provided is clearly a reference to the power in the games, and its only illustrations are also from the games. One is of Revan using it, yes, but the second actually has Juhani using it.

 

That being the case, it is clear that Revan's Force Storm power is just the same as we see in the game, where the lightning strike all within a radius of 10 meters of the target enemy (who seems to be whichever enemy is closer).

 

However, the reason we have discussed this power is because you made this claim:

 

Revan can use this Super Force Lightening Storm ability again and kill Nihilus from a large distance, even before Nihilus will turn to face him.

 

Force Storm only has a radius of 10 meters in the games, so it would seem obvious to me that your claim is doubtful at best. Your reference to The One only establishes that pre-K1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, as seen in the games, and used it to kill many of the The One's warriors. Given that my Exile has been able to kill Gerevick and all of his goons with one use of Force Storm as well, this does not turn Revan's power into some super power, since Gerevick and his goons were all powerful thugs as well.

 

And clearly, Revan would need to get within 10 meters or so of Nihilus to use Force Storm at all, whereas Nihilus can devastate a planet and everybody on it from orbit, or at the very least do it from very great distances. Even if we double Revan's range with this power to 20 meters simply on account of him being Revan, it still won't make a difference. And whatever defenses Revan has don't matter either, because, as Kreia puts it at the precise moment when Nihilus uses his power against her in a cutscene, "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

 

Either way - exit Revan. Nihilus wins.

 

As for the other powers you mention, I'll accept that Revan had Dominate Mind, but I don't see that it is an ability to convince many people. It really is just as a stronger version of Affect Mind, which is itself rather common to jedi and sith. Revan is better at it than most, but I don't think it's what made him a great leader. That would mean that he was a good leader on the basis of some force power and not because he could inspire people to dedicate themselves to his cause, which I've always considered one of Revan's better traits. Basically, you could argue that Revan was a demagogue, because he could inspire people to follow his sometimes outrages plans. To me, he is like historical people like Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin, whom we have no choice but to accept as great leaders, since they could inspire people to do truly despicable acts. If you give Revan unique force powers to explain this, then you do so at costs to his character, I think. And while Revan was a great jedi, I don't see any evidence him having such a power that would affect many people. Indeed, such a power would be Bastila's Battle Meditation, which Revan clearly does not seem to possess, since Bastila's use of it against the Republic in LS ending of KotOR1 is devastating the republic fleet without Revan being able to do anything about it but entering the Star Forge and stopping her.

 

That Revan, like almost all jedi and sith, has the power of telekinesis I'll accept without explanation.

 

I'm more skeptical about the thought bomb, because it would beg the explanation of why he then never used it. However, you're right that canon sources establish that Bane learned it from Revan's holocron, and so Revan must have known of it. Or rather, I was highly skeptical until I read the following: "Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb, when triggered, unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side.". I think that explains why Revan didn't use this power - he simply never had enough Sith Lords to create the bomb in the first place, making knowledge of it useless to him, but useful to Bane. And in any event, it is then clear that the use of a Thought Bomb is then highly limited, because lots of Sith Lords need to agree to make one, which is rare enough in any event, and it would have to be created for a specific purpose. To Revan alone, this knowledge would be totally useless, and certainly in a one-on-one fight against Nihilus.

 

In fact, we could argue that Nihilus is basically an animated Thought Bomb himself, because what it does seems to be exactly what Nihilus does on a grand scale. I mean, a thought-bomb destroys force-sensitives in "the blast radius", which I take to mean not the entire planet. Nihilus, however, can destroy all LIFE on a whole planet in one attack. His powers are clearly far more potent than a mere thought bomb. So I'm not sure it would even work on him.

 

As for Drain Knowlege, I have no idea why you apply that to Revan. You've provided absolutely no source for Revan having this power, and even though Wookieepedia mentions it, Revan is not mentioned in relation to it any way.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

 

Then he trained Malak in Sith Arts as well, so Force Moves shown by Malak were also known to him. Also he knew some Defensive moves as well.

 

What? Malak couldn't have learned anything on his own as a Sith Lord? I think that's a pretty big supposition.

 

He said that he turned to Dark Side and he actually killed his master and thats why he left the Jedi Order because their was no valid reason for him to stay with the Jedi. Also, Ajunta Pall was one of the founding leaders of the old Sith during the time of the Old Sith Empire centered on Korriban, shortly after the "Hundred-Year Darkness". And he was among the most famous Ancient Sith Lords, as his Tomb was present their in Korriban as a sign of respect.

 

Him being buried there could simply be as a token of respect for founding the Sith Empire. It does not necessarily mean that he was one of the greatest Sith lords ever.

 

So kreia mis-judged this event.

 

No, she stated an opinion. One that most sith lords would agree with, btw.

 

Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.

 

Clearly I would expect them to say absolutely nothing else, which was my point. The Mandalorians are dedicated exclusively to a very military-fascist "might is right" kind of thinking. They allied with Exar Kun during the Sith War for the same reason - they saw Exar Kun as the strongest warlord. And, of course, they were wrong, since Exar Kun was eventually defeated too. But the Mandalorians don't accept that - they just continue to hold onto their flawed ideals regardless. Given how often they have lost their wars in the KotOR period, you'd think they would amend their position a little, but no - like lemmings they will follow any perceived great leader over a cliff.

 

Conclusion: Demonstrate that you're a great warleader, and you'll have Mandalorian brownoses crawling up your rear. That the Mandalorians aren't even able to dislike Revan for the utter destruction he caused to them just shows that they are completely devoid of any true sense of friendship, camaraderie, or sense of loyalty even to their own people. I truly find their inhuman principles detestable.

 

Now he won't say the samething to any other person or would he?

 

If this person defeated Mandalorians on a grand scale, he would have to, yes.

 

It's an unofficial Star Wars source, which mostly relies on Canon material and you can't just openly Edit information in it, as owners of that Source watch these kinds of changes very clearly and they take actions accordingly. It is not like wikipedia actually.

 

As much as both I and the owners of Wookieepedia would like for that to be true, I think even the owners would have to disagree with you. Try looking the description of the Exile there

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_exile

 

You'll note a box at the top saying: "The shield must be deactivated if any edits are to be attempted." Now why is that? Well, if you click the "discussion" button at the top, you'll get to the background of what it says about the Exile. The top message there says, "THE EXILE IS FEMALE. GET OVER IT." Sorry about the upper case, but that's a direct copy+paste. The problem is that so many people are unwilling to accept that the Exile was declared canonically female (and no - I won't go into that discussion here - it's not a related topic to this at all), that they kept editing the page back to saying the Exile was male. And so the owners of Wookieepedia locked the page from editing. If you have information to add about Revan, go to his page, edit it, save, blam - there it is on Wookieepedia. If you find information about the Thought Bomb lacking, then go to its page, edit and save - there you go - it's on Wookieepedia's page.

 

Now, I'm not saying in any way that Wookieepedia is a bad source of Star Wars in any way. I find it more credible than Wikipedia, and the owners do go to great lengths to keep the information accurate - I have nothing but great respect for them and their hard work. But it lies at the heart of any Wiki, that people writing inaccurate information is a constant and unavoidable risk. Even the owners of Wookieepedia clearly know this.

[The Sith'ari]

*bows at Jediphile*

Don't make me fall in love with you

 

Actually, now that you mentioned the submission of Exar Kun to the dark side, I agree it might similar to how Revan "fell". But, enlighten me,

 

1) Exar Kun's body was already crushed and he was to either accept the dark side or to die. After he made his choice, he got a new found body, granted by the power of the dark side. He then forever belonged to the dark and could never return to the light, even though he attempted to. But if Revan indeed faced Exar's situation, how come he could be redeemed?

 

2) Kreia said Revan made his sacrifice to fight against a greater evil. Was he referring to the fact that Revan defied the jedi order (sacrifice) and fought in the wars to fight against the mandalorians (the greater evil), or the fact that he submitted to the dark side (sacrifice) to fight against the true sith (the greater evil)?

 

3) IF Revan indeed fell to the dark side like how Exar Kun did, that means he did not really plan it- he did not actually plan the fall to the dark side. If so, how could Kreia say that Revan did not "fall"? If so, it'd be like:

 

i) Revan looking for a stronghold to resist the mandalorians

ii) Stumbled on Malachor, experienced something like what happened to Kun

iii) Submitted to the dark side

iv) Thinking, "Now that I've fallen. Great, I can use this place to convert an army of jedi."

 

At this point, was he thinking of fighting the Mandalorians? Or already the true sith? I just wanna make things clear, if possible.

 

And back to the question. In this case, Kreia's argument does not stand, for Revan did not plan to fall to the dark side to fight against the enemy; it just happened that he fell, but he'd continue to fight the mandalorians (or the true sith).

 

Hope you could sort out this mess for me.

[Jediphile]

*bows at Jediphile*

Don't make me fall in love with you

 

 

Thanks. I'll try not to.

 

Though you saying so may suggest something. Someone else has called me "Revan incarnate" in the past. And no, it wasn't The Architect. Though he seems to respect me too. Hmmm, actually that just underscores the point... Now I'm scared...

 

[looks hastily around for the lure of the dark side]

 

Actually, now that you mentioned the submission of Exar Kun to the dark side, I agree it might similar to how Revan "fell". But, enlighten me,

 

1) Exar Kun's body was already crushed and he was to either accept the dark side or to die. After he made his choice, he got a new found body, granted by the power of the dark side. He then forever belonged to the dark and could never return to the light, even though he attempted to. But if Revan indeed faced Exar's situation, how come he could be redeemed?

 

Exar's body was crushed, but it was healed, when he accepted the dark side. I guess the LS could have done this too, had it not been because this took place on Korriban, where the light side was banished. So Nadd just tricked Kun, so that his body could be destroyed. Then Kun had no choice but to fall, if he wanted to live.

 

I don't think the same is true for Revan, but then we have very little knowledge of what exactly happened there, but for what I've quoted from the chronicles above. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Revan's corruption was closer to a mix between Kun's fall and Ulic's. Revan always seemed more like Ulic (who was named after Luke as a sort of anagram) to me. Ulic was injected with sith poison that twisted and corrupted him. I see Revan's fall as a mixture between the two - the power of the dark side was like poison to Revan, and his body was decaying for that reason. But like Exar Kun, then then had to demonstrate his will to abandon the light and embrace the dark side to survive. That's my interpretation, however, based on the known facts though it may be.

 

2) Kreia said Revan made his sacrifice to fight against a greater evil. Was he referring to the fact that Revan defied the jedi order (sacrifice) and fought in the wars to fight against the mandalorians (the greater evil), or the fact that he submitted to the dark side (sacrifice) to fight against the true sith (the greater evil)?

 

It's a bit unclear, but actually I tend to think it's to fight the Mandalorians, since it seems Revan did not learn about the true Sith until he studied the arcane lore of the Trayus Academy, which must clearly have been *after* he landed on Malachor V and was overcome by the dark side. I don't see how Revan could have had any inkling of the true Sith before that point, so his dedication to destroy the true Sith must have come after his fall to the dark side, I think.

 

3) IF Revan indeed fell to the dark side like how Exar Kun did, that means he did not really plan it- he did not actually plan the fall to the dark side. If so, how could Kreia say that Revan did not "fall"? If so, it'd be like:

 

i) Revan looking for a stronghold to resist the mandalorians

ii) Stumbled on Malachor, experienced something like what happened to Kun

iii) Submitted to the dark side

iv) Thinking, "Now that I've fallen. Great, I can use this place to convert an army of jedi."

 

At this point, was he thinking of fighting the Mandalorians? Or already the true sith? I just wanna make things clear, if possible.

 

I think you have to take Kreia's pride concerning Revan into account there. Though Kreia does her best to hide it, she has great difficulty hiding just how pride she is of Revan's achievements. Because being his master, it says something about her too, and that flatters her. Besides, it underscores her teachings, which is essential to her, particularly since they were rejected by the jedi council.

 

As for why Revan went to Malachor V, I'm not sure. He may have been simply looking for a point from which to strike against the Mandalorians. I don't think he found his way there from Korriban, since Kreia also says, "It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here," at the end of the game.

 

Whether Revan realised what dark powers lurked on Malachor V is uncertain, but I'd like to think he was smarter than to just blunder in without checking first. And though I've spoken out against Revan being an uber-jedi, I do think he was strong enough to sense the danger. Which leads me to believe that Revan sensed it, but was arrogant enough to think that he could overcome any danger. Which is, of course, another flaw - nobody is ever above any danger.

 

Revan's plan to convert the jedi to sith, IMHO, clearly came after he learned of the true Sith. The dark side twisted him further by showing him a greater threat than the Mandalorians, so that he could be corrupted further and spread his corruption further. Revan thought he was using the dark side as a tool, but you don't make deals with the devils without paying the price. And while fire can be a useful servant, it is a harsh master. And Revan was burned indeed.

 

And back to the question. In this case, Kreia's argument does not stand, for Revan did not plan to fall to the dark side to fight against the enemy; it just happened that he fell, but he'd continue to fight the mandalorians (or the true sith).

 

Hope you could sort out this mess for me.

 

Not sure what the real question is, but if you're asking whether Revan is basically a good person, whose goals are twisted by the dark side, or whether he was always a powerhungry megalomaniac, then I don't think we can answer that question at all.

 

One of the things that both The Architect and I like about TSL is that your LS/DS choice in K1 is perserved in the game and was always meant to be so. Is Revan ulimately good or evil? It's for the player to decide, because it ultimately comes down to how you perceive Revan. He is a hero or a villain depending on how you look at him. And that's the way it should be, too. Revan is the player's character. It would be best if his true nature is indeed decided upon by the eyes that see him.

 

Not sure if that's much of an answer, though, since it means I don't believe we can say anything about whether Revan was really good or evil in the end. All I can tell is how I see him. And to me Revan was basically a good person, who was a little to certain of his own goals as well as underestimating his own potential, since he became a greater danger to the Republic than he thought he would. He made the same mistake Ulic made by thinking he could use the dark side as a tool without becoming corrupted by it. I also think his guilt over this is what led LS Revan to abandon his friends and leave to fight the true Sith alone. It's an understandable and commendable choice, but I think he made another mistake with it - facing the dark side alone is not the jedi way.

[The Sith'ari]

Oops, editted the post just after your last post. Do look back on my last post and try to answer my questions, Revan incarnate.

[Jediphile]

Oops, editted the post just after your last post. Do look back on my last post and try to answer my questions, Revan incarnate.

 

I hope I managed that to some extent.

[S_W_LeGenD]

It's a matter of opinion, then. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that Revan served a higher and benevolent goal at the time, and I also agree that he was justified in going to war. As Kreia says, "The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war." But note in which context she says that:

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

 

The Mandalorians were a great threat to the Republic, and Revan was determined not to let the Republic fall. But in being so determined, I also think that Revan, even before he fell to the dark side on Malachor V, made some compromises. He would go to any length to save the Republic. He was willing to make sacrifices, a trait that Canderous would later praise him for.

 

In short, Revan accepted a "the ends justifies the means"-approach, and however justified he may have been in that regard for the sake of whatever noble and greater purpose, that choice alone will put him at odds with the grander principles of the light side, I think. Revan put his own choices and goals above anything else, and even though those goals may have been benevolent in a greater perspective, it still means that he puts his own desires, plans, and opinions above that of anyone else.

 

And that is Kreia's point - it doesn't matter what mask Revan wears or what others think of him, because it's still Revan in the end. But with that observation, it naturally follows, that Revan then does not follow or even aspire to the greater goals of the jedi order or even the light side itself - to follow your own motivations above all else is not the way of the light side.

 

So Revan compromised. As understandable as that might be under the circumstances, it does not make him a great servant of the light, because Revan was trying to save the Republic, not adhere to the greater will of the light side of the Force. If he had to compromise with his own adherence to the light side, then so be it.

 

That the masters themselves are arrogant and fearful at the same time is immaterial, because Revan is not swayed by their arguments. And just because they may not be true followers of the light themselves, that does not mean that Revan is either.

Very good points indeed and I appreciate your effort.

 

Actually, I shouldn't have said that, because it gives the wrong impression. My apologies. But Malachor V was forbidden to the Mandalorians. Part IX of the TSL Chronicles mentions the following:

 

"Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on."

 

It seems the Mandalorians were forbidden to go there, because they simply realised something dangerous lurked there. Either way, it was forbidden for them to set foot on the planet. This part of the chronicles is more extensive, but I'll get to it later, since it speaks to Revan's corruption on Malachor V.

Well! this was my point as well. As I have said that Mandalorians avoided this planet and it was due to specific reason and that Malachor was a dangerous planet. This is why it is mentioned in Chronicles that Malachor was a sort of "anathema" to Mandalorians.

 

And what "higher canon source" would that be? TSL is the only source EVER explore Malachor V in detail. That could change, but since the planet canonically ceases to exist at the end of TSL, I doubt it, unless it is explored in pre-KotOR2 material.

TSL is still a C-Canon source. Though we can wait and see that if any higher canon source explains about Malachor V in details.

 

then I can't follow you. While I agree with the first statement, I fail to see how it can lead you to reach the conclusion you reach in the second statement. Sorry, but I just don't see it. I see no basis for concluding that Revan feeding on dark side energies on Malachor V is proof that he has great power in the Force.

A matter of opinion here. But since their are many other reasons to suggest that he has great power in the Force, so this case is not of much importance.

 

I suppose the most canonic source on this that we have are the TSL chronicles. The following is from Part IX: Darth Revan Rising:

 

"It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

 

Now, there are several problems here that actually allow us to discard the entire text. For one, it calls Revan a jedi master, and we know that Revan was never a jedi master - he was still a young jedi, when he fell to the dark side. It also says that a stronghold is "immediately constructed" on Malachor V. Since it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that this place is the Trayus Academy, that's not entirely true, given that the academy has been there for centuries if not millennia. After all, the ancient lore of the Sith is what drew Revan's attention in the first place. So it would probably be more accurate to say that the academy was rebuilt and strengthened into a stronghold.

 

Anyway, I'll grant you that Revan's will saved him from death, because that's basically what it says. I don't see that it says something highly unusual about Revan's powers, though. It just says that he was a very strong-willed person, which I have never disagreed with. In fact, I don't recall anyone here saying otherwise. Will and determination are close concepts, and both are defining traits for Revan. They are not, however, related to the Force as such. The Mandalorians were also strong-willed and determined. Probably less so than Revan, but even so. So you don't need to be force-sensitive at all for that to be true.

 

And surviving by will, to me, is just a test for Revan - the dark side won't tolerate weakness. It won't abide Revan's light sided ideals, either, so the only way Revan will be allowed to live is to abandon the light side and demonstrate true potential. Both requires strength of will, and in that sense, it is true that Revan survives by will alone - will to survive by willfully sacrificing his own benevolence.

 

To me, the scene is very much like the scene in "Tales of the Jedi: The Dark Lords of the Sith" (issue 3), when Exar Kun finally abandons the light and embraces the dark side. Nadd's spirit tricks Exar Kun into a valley or gorge, where Nadd unleashes an avalance upon Kun, shattering his body completely. Exar Kun is doomed. The only way he can save his life is to abandon the light and turn to the dark side to save himself. But doing so will cost him his very soul. Both Nadd and Kun know this. Kun even tries to reach out to Master Ood. But it is to no avail. Kun must accept the darkness and reject the light, and it is not a simple choice. Merely saying that he accepts does not do the trick. He must accept it in his heart, and that takes will.

 

To me it was the same for Revan - he could not survive by accepting the dark side while holding onto some of the light. It took will to abandon the light completely, and Revan demonstrated that. Revan is not entirely consumed, however, because he manages to hold onto his own goals. He won't abandon his goal of saving the Republic from the Mandalorians, but then that is not a goal at odds with the dark side as such, and so Revan can hold onto that without being being killed by the dark side.

 

As we see, the goal does become twisted, however, since now Revan wants to conquer and rule the Republic himself, rather than merely save it from the Mandalorians. Ok, true, Revan also discovers the existence of the "true Sith" and so may have rationalized that it was necessary to prepare the Republic for that war too, which meant conquering the Republic itself first. But to me that is still the dark side twisting Revan's goals. If Revan's goal was to protect the Republic by destroying the Mandalorians and then the "true Sith", then why didn't he use the Star Forge to create a fleet that he then used to attack the "true Sith"? The only answer I can think of is that the dark side twisted his goals in this regard also.

Excellent points and I applaud you for your great effort once again.

 

Force Lightning may not be known to all Sith lords, though I'd agree they are likely to. I'll accept that at least pre-KotOR1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, since the One clearly mentions it. However, this is simply Force Storm as seen in the games. The only reference you have made to this power is clearly to the games themselves, in which case its only advantage to Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of an arc in front of him. However, both powers do exactly the same amount of damage. The link you provided is clearly a reference to the power in the games, and its only illustrations are also from the games. One is of Revan using it, yes, but the second actually has Juhani using it.

Look! "Game Play mechanics" have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

 

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it is far greater. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

 

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning power can hit individuals from many yards away. In "Dooku vs Yoda showdown" in AOTC, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

 

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

 

And Force Lightning does not forms an Arc. Only in a "Force Storm", several powerful bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a Arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

 

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a "Force Storm" and that in a "normal Force Lightning". These two powers massively differ from each other in the sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.

 

That being the case, it is clear that Revan's Force Storm power is just the same as we see in the game, where the lightning strike all within a radius of 10 meters of the target enemy (who seems to be whichever enemy is closer).

No it is not. In the narration, we get to know that his attack killed several individuals along with some beasts as well. But in the K1 game, only 3 arcs form from a Force Storm and that is not enough to kill several targets.

 

Force Storm only has a radius of 10 meters in the games, so it would seem obvious to me that your claim is doubtful at best. Your reference to The One only establishes that pre-K1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, as seen in the games, and used it to kill many of the The One's warriors. Given that my Exile has been able to kill Gerevick and all of his goons with one use of Force Storm as well, this does not turn Revan's power into some super power, since Gerevick and his goons were all powerful thugs as well.

My claim is not doubtful at all. You can't use "Game Mechanics" as a valid reason to describe that how far this power can spread. And things have improved a lot in KOTOR 2 and so the damage of "Force Storm" in it looks more realistic and effective then before. But even in K2, Force Powers are not as effective as they are in Canonical reality.

 

As an example: a simple "Force Push" can send a Jedi or Sith flying many yards away and we have seen this in ROTS movie.

 

And clearly, Revan would need to get within 10 meters or so of Nihilus to use Force Storm at all, whereas Nihilus can devastate a planet and everybody on it from orbit, or at the very least do it from very great distances. Even if we double Revan's range with this power to 20 meters simply on account of him being Revan, it still won't make a difference. And whatever defenses Revan has don't matter either, because, as Kreia puts it at the precise moment when Nihilus uses his power against her in a cutscene, "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

Their is no reason for Revan to get to 10 meters to use his "Force Storm" on Nihilus. Because in canonical reality a normal Force Lightning power can hit it's intended target from many yards away and we are talking about much more powerful "Force Storm" here.

 

And "Force Storm" does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. Because the sheer amount of energy used in it is far greater. Even in games, they have shown this one distinction clearly.

 

And I have said before that if Nihilus launches his attack first, he wins.

 

Either way - exit Revan. Nihilus wins.

Not if Revan launches his Force attack first. Nihilus was not invincible.

 

As for the other powers you mention, I'll accept that Revan had Dominate Mind, but I don't see that it is an ability to convince many people. It really is just as a stronger version of Affect Mind, which is itself rather common to jedi and sith. Revan is better at it than most, but I don't think it's what made him a great leader. That would mean that he was a good leader on the basis of some force power and not because he could inspire people to dedicate themselves to his cause, which I've always considered one of Revan's better traits. Basically, you could argue that Revan was a demagogue, because he could inspire people to follow his sometimes outrages plans. To me, he is like historical people like Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin, whom we have no choice but to accept as great leaders, since they could inspire people to do truly despicable acts. If you give Revan unique force powers to explain this, then you do so at costs to his character, I think. And while Revan was a great jedi, I don't see any evidence him having such a power that would affect many people. Indeed, such a power would be Bastila's Battle Meditation, which Revan clearly does not seem to possess, since Bastila's use of it against the Republic in LS ending of KotOR1 is devastating the republic fleet without Revan being able to do anything about it but entering the Star Forge and stopping her.

Well! I can agree that "Dominate Mind" ability of Revan may not be very effective against many individuals as not all are weak minded fools.

 

That Revan, like almost all jedi and sith, has the power of telekinesis I'll accept without explanation.

Good.

 

I'm more skeptical about the thought bomb, because it would beg the explanation of why he then never used it. However, you're right that canon sources establish that Bane learned it from Revan's holocron, and so Revan must have known of it. Or rather, I was highly skeptical until I read the following: "Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb, when triggered, unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side.". I think that explains why Revan didn't use this power - he simply never had enough Sith Lords to create the bomb in the first place, making knowledge of it useless to him, but useful to Bane. And in any event, it is then clear that the use of a Thought Bomb is then highly limited, because lots of Sith Lords need to agree to make one, which is rare enough in any event, and it would have to be created for a specific purpose. To Revan alone, this knowledge would be totally useless, and certainly in a one-on-one fight against Nihilus.

I know and this is why I have not used this power in my case.

 

In fact, we could argue that Nihilus is basically an animated Thought Bomb himself, because what it does seems to be exactly what Nihilus does on a grand scale. I mean, a thought-bomb destroys force-sensitives in "the blast radius", which I take to mean not the entire planet. Nihilus, however, can destroy all LIFE on a whole planet in one attack. His powers are clearly far more potent than a mere thought bomb. So I'm not sure it would even work on him.

Perhaps.

 

As for Drain Knowlege, I have no idea why you apply that to Revan. You've provided absolutely no source for Revan having this power, and even though Wookieepedia mentions it, Revan is not mentioned in relation to it any way.

It was a common practise among Sith of his age. Come-on now! even Darth Bandon demonstrated this power, and we are talking about a powerful DLOTS here.

 

What? Malak couldn't have learned anything on his own as a Sith Lord? I think that's a pretty big supposition.

Malak already was very powerful before betraying Revan and he spent most of his time in making Star Forge effective and finding Bastilla, after he took command of the Sith Forces. Revan had trained him in the arts of Sith and Revan was more knowledgeable then Malak.

 

Him being buried there could simply be as a token of respect for founding the Sith Empire. It does not necessarily mean that he was one of the greatest Sith lords ever.

Since very few Sith Lords have enjoyed the privilege to have Tombs built for them after their death as a major sign of respect, so Ajunta was among them and this surely means something or adds to his credibility. Because Sith would not built such Tombs for normal individuals.

 

No, she stated an opinion. One that most sith lords would agree with, btw.

Not necessarily if they knew the actual facts about Ajunta.

 

Clearly I would expect them to say absolutely nothing else, which was my point. The Mandalorians are dedicated exclusively to a very military-fascist "might is right" kind of thinking. They allied with Exar Kun during the Sith War for the same reason - they saw Exar Kun as the strongest warlord. And, of course, they were wrong, since Exar Kun was eventually defeated too. But the Mandalorians don't accept that - they just continue to hold onto their flawed ideals regardless. Given how often they have lost their wars in the KotOR period, you'd think they would amend their position a little, but no - like lemmings they will follow any perceived great leader over a cliff.

 

Conclusion: Demonstrate that you're a great warleader, and you'll have Mandalorian brownoses crawling up your rear. That the Mandalorians aren't even able to dislike Revan for the utter destruction he caused to them just shows that they are completely devoid of any true sense of friendship, camaraderie, or sense of loyalty even to their own people. I truly find their inhuman principles detestable.

Well! Revan was certainly among those who they respected and that was due to the reason that Revan out-smarted them in tactics, planning and intelligence in the War.

 

If this person defeated Mandalorians on a grand scale, he would have to, yes.

Only Revan accomplished this.

 

As much as both I and the owners of Wookieepedia would like for that to be true, I think even the owners would have to disagree with you. Try looking the description of the Exile there

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_exile

 

You'll note a box at the top saying: "The shield must be deactivated if any edits are to be attempted." Now why is that? Well, if you click the "discussion" button at the top, you'll get to the background of what it says about the Exile. The top message there says, "THE EXILE IS FEMALE. GET OVER IT." Sorry about the upper case, but that's a direct copy+paste. The problem is that so many people are unwilling to accept that the Exile was declared canonically female (and no - I won't go into that discussion here - it's not a related topic to this at all), that they kept editing the page back to saying the Exile was male. And so the owners of Wookieepedia locked the page from editing. If you have information to add about Revan, go to his page, edit it, save, blam - there it is on Wookieepedia. If you find information about the Thought Bomb lacking, then go to its page, edit and save - there you go - it's on Wookieepedia's page.

 

Now, I'm not saying in any way that Wookieepedia is a bad source of Star Wars in any way. I find it more credible than Wikipedia, and the owners do go to great lengths to keep the information accurate - I have nothing but great respect for them and their hard work. But it lies at the heart of any Wiki, that people writing inaccurate information is a constant and unavoidable risk. Even the owners of Wookieepedia clearly know this.

Revan's profile is also forbidden to be edited in Wookieepedia and since, information in Wookieepedia regarding Star Wars has never been disappointng and the owners of this source try to keep their information as better and canonical as possible, so we can trust this source. Though! no one is perfect indeed.

 

And the owners of wookieepedia accept editing based changes if they don't contradict with canon.

[Emperor Devon]

I'd say he just brought his ship in orbit around that planet, then he consumed the world killing everything. I'm sure there was no fight between the masters and Nihilus.

 

He went there himself. I already provided proof for it.

 

You all seem to think, Revan would not be capable of killing the Jedi Masters... But Kreia is?

 

That sounds like a theory to me... The technique she used was one specific to the post-Jedi Civil War Sith. In any event, I would imagine that there were than three Masters there. That's too a small a number to label a conclave.

[The Sith'ari]

The dark side twisted him further by showing him a greater threat than the Mandalorians, so that he could be corrupted further and spread his corruption further.

 

Is this supported by any source or pure speculation?

I'd opt to believe that it's not true, because you'd be suggesting that the dark side actually planned it for Revan that he'd be converting those jedi to his cause. I'd rather believe that Revan for some reason found out about the true sith and devised a way to fight against it, and converting jedi is what he came up with. As from what I recall of Kreia's saying, Revan actually chose Malachor as the battleground for the sole reason of converting the jedi by the dark power of the planet. Of course she could be wrong, but it all just seems too remote to be all planned and intended by the dark side of the force.

 

And thanks for sharing your thoughts on Revan. I believe he's a good person too. Among all the other reasons you mentioned, I remember Kreia saying Revan having the traits of a jedi forever etched on his soul. Though as deceitful as Kreia is, there's no way she's lying all the time; she only lies when necessary. And as the first and last teacher of Revan I'd say she knows him pretty well, especially with sensitivity of a force-sensitive. Anyway... let's get back on topic

 

He went there himself. I acutally provided proof for it.

 

I actually provided a counter-argument in one of my previous posts. As you have not addressed my argument, I thought that you agreed with me on it, but now I take that you have not read it? Post #116 in page 3. Please look at it.

[Jediphile]

TSL is still a C-Canon source. Though we can wait and see that if any higher canon source explains about Malachor V in details.

 

Canon is canon. If later canon revises stuff about Malachor V, then we'll have to deal with that, but for now there is no reason to, since TSL's information about it stands. And since the planet is canonically destroyed in the end, it is unlikely we'll ever see revision that will alter events as they are in TSL. There would be no reason to that I can see.

 

Look! "Game Play mechanics" have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

 

In which case we all get to claim that those powers can canonically do whatever we prefer them to do? Sorry, but no. If a canon source had estalished this, it would be one thing, but since it doesn't, we have little choice but to look at the game mechanics for now. I agree that's not a good source, but it better than nothing. It's also better than blindly accepting anyone's opinion of what the power might do, whether that opinion be yours or mine or whomever's.

 

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it is far great. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

 

It is in the game rules. But fine, let's say we extend. How much then? Even if we take it up to 100 meters, ten times what it is in the rules, it still pales horribly next to Nihilus' draining powers. So it's a moot point.

 

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning can hit individuals from many yards back. In Dooku vs Yoda showdown, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

 

How far then? Fine, I'll accept 20 or 30 meters, but I don't think we see anything beyond that in any of the movies, comic books, or whatever. And naturally, it still wouldn't help Revan against Nihilus.

 

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

 

No basis for that conclusion, so I'll have to disagree. It's almost as if you're saying that because we can't be sure, you surely must be right in your assumption. What's to prevent me from saying the same about my conclusions? What's to stop anyone else, for that matter?

 

And Force Lightning does not forms an Arc. Only in a "Force Storm", several bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a Arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

 

Funny - my force lightning attacks could always hit several individuals if I positioned my character carefully... Shock was another matter, though.

 

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a Force Storm and that in a normal Force Lightning. These two powers massively differ from each other in the sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.

 

Actually, they both inflict exactly the same amount of damage - 1d6 per level up to a certain maximum. But I do agree that it might be difficult to see, since:

 

1. You naturally progress to higher levels, so learning a new power at a new level would make it seem more potent. This is due to the increased character level, however, not because the power itself does greater damage.

 

2. Since higher progressions of some abilities, such as Shock -> Force Lighning -> Force Storm cannot be learned until certain levels, at which point they utterly replace the "lower" power, it gives the impression that the new power does more damage for the reasons given in point 1 above and because it strikes more people.

 

Ruleswise, however, Shock, Force Lightning, and Force Storm all deal out the exact same amount of damage. The higher powers are just more effective because they affect more enemies. Any actually increased damage comes from a higher experience level of the character alone.

 

No it is not. In the narration, we get to know that his attack killed several individuals along with some beats as well. But in the game, only 3 arcs form from a Force Storm and that is not enough to kill several targets.

 

Nope - I've been able to hit 20+ Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban with my Exile, so that is not accurate. In fact, it could 30+ Hssiss or beyond - I'm just not sure. But they were many indeed. And this was without cheating.

 

My claim is not doubtful at all. You can't use "Game Mechanics" as a valid reason to describe that how far this power can spread. And things have improved a lot in KOTOR 2 and so did the damage of Force Storm in it looks more realistic and effective then before. But even in K2, Force Powers are not as effective as they are in Canonical reality.

 

Even if I were to accept that, that doesn't mean that canonical force powers are limitless. I might accept that they are more powerful canonically, but I won't accept that they can do whatever you or anyone else would prefer them to do simply on the basis that their limits are not established outside the game mechanics. That they are not is no free pass for anyone to claim whatever they want to.

 

As an example: a simple "Force Push" can send a Jedi or Sith flying many yards away and we have seen this in ROTS movie.

 

Yes, but we've seen that in the games too. At least, I have.

 

Their is no reason for Revan to get to 10 meters to use his Force Storm on Nihilus. Because in canonical reality a normal Force Lightning power can hit its intended target from many yards away and we are talking about much more powerful "Force Storm" here.

 

And Force Storm does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. Because the sheer amount of energy used in it is far greater. Even in games, they have shown this one distinction clearly.

 

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken about how these powers work in the game. And the only source you have given for the Force Storm power is a reference to how it exists in the games. That gives you no basis for claiming how it might work in "canonical reality".

 

It was a common practise among Sith of his age. Come on! man! Even Darth Bandon demonstrated this power, and we are talking about a DLOTS here.

 

Where did Bandon demonstrate this? And as you have explained so well yourself, not every sith lord has every sith power. And all instances of Drain Knowledge mentioned on Wookieepedia are movie era or later. So for all we know, the power may not even have been known before then.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

 

Since very few Sith Lords had the privilege to have Tombs built for them after their death as a major sign of respect, so Ajunta was among them and this means something or adds to his credibility.

 

He was one of the founders of the empire. That would assure him a place. That does not make him one of the most powerful sith lords, however.

 

Only Revan did this.

 

Actually, Mandalore also greatly respects the Exile. Indeed, he expresses respect for Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction it wrought at Malachor V. It speaks volumes that Mandalore can't even feel any disgust or regret for all those dead Mandalorians who were killed by Bao-Dur's technological terror. Even Bao-Dur shows greater compassion for those dead Mandalorians than any of the Mandalorians do. Yuck!

 

Revan's profile is also forbidden to be edited in Wookieepedia and since, information in it regarding Star Wars has never been disappointng and the owners of this source try to keep their information as better and canonical as possible, so we can trust them.

 

And the owners of wookieepedia accept editing based changes if they don't contradict with canon.

 

I didn't realise Revan's page was also locked. But then that just underscores my point.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

*bows to Jediphile*

 

Jeez....you couldn't have said it better, my friend.

 

Look! "Game Play" mechanics have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

 

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it matters the most. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

 

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning can hit individuals from many yards back. In Dooku vs Yoda showdown, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

 

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

 

And Force Lightning does not forms an arc. Only in a Force Storm, several bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

 

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a Force Storm and that in a normal Force Lightning. These two powers massively differ from each other in sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.

 

It seems that you're the one using game mechanics. You haven't shown anyone a source that says Revan used a power that was much greater than any other type of lightning. As Jediphile stated, your own link to Force Storm was clearly a reference to the game, and only had illustrations from the game. If you don't want to use gameplay mechanics and you want to prove your claim of how Force Storm is more powerful than Lightning, then provide a source that talks about it's use other than use in KotOR.

 

And the explanation of the sights that The One saw are not good either. As I and others have said, he had never seen the Force in action before and he was in total awe.