Difficulty - 'The Perfect Balance'

[Rockstar]

I think that it is unfair that you judge the jedi in this way. In my opinion, jedi are not supposed to be gods, they are still people. They have the force to enhance their power and combat abilities but they are not one man/woman armies. Remember that the jedi were caught by surprise, and for people like Ki-Adi Mundi, right in the middle of a battle. How and why were they supposed to divert some of their attention to the clones behind them, supposedly backing them up, when they need to put their focus on the battle in front of them? The padawan (if I remember, it was the kid at the Coruscant academy) jumped out from nowhere and surprised tht clones, and that is why he was able to take down about 2 before he was killed.

 

Besides, if 4 or 5 clones are shooting at a jedi at the same time in different places, no amount of lightsaber mastery will keep them from getting shot.

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer the thread question. Yes, I think that the game needs to be harder.

 

 

Umm. Did you see the clone wars series? Jedi Masters are gods on the battlefield. I think the reason why the clones were able to kill the Jedi is because they were created for soley that reason (as well as for the war). Yes a Jedi could not block 5 shots in different places but that is why you do not stay still. He could have jumped over the troops and carved them up... or even just pushed the lot of them over. This was a pathetic way for the Jedi Order to fall and caused alot of controvercy. The truth is a Jedi is a one man army. Why did it take a Jedi to defeat Darth Vader? They would have just sent an assassin group of troops to take him out if a Jedi/Sith fell so easily. We see Jedi LEADING the battlefields on the front line... tell me that is not uber lol.

 

I guess i answered my own question why order 66 worked so well. The Jedi were on the front line and could not face two armies at the same time (in terms of concentration and prediction). The clones are... well clones with not the normal minds of people which makes their thoughts difficult to read. Last and most importantly, the Clones are the elite of the elite and were also programmed to kill Jedi.

 

The padawan fell because he was a small boy who did brilliantly for his size and experience.

[Vaelastraz]

So do you consider the Clone war series more "true" then Episode 3?

 

In Episode 3, Jedi are definitly not uber powerful battlefield gods. Massive blaster fire can and will take out Jedi, unless they run away.

 

About that Vader example... well first of all Vader is extraordinarily strong, he is by no means the common Jedi/sith.

Secondly, guess why most leaders of crime syndicates are not eliminated right away? With all their enemies? Because it is hard to actually get to them. It is hard to get them alone.

A killer squad could probably have killed Vader, but not through an ambush (Vader would have sensed that).

 

 

 

The only scene in Episode 3 where the Jedi REALLY were portrayed in a pathetic way was the lightsaber duel with Sidious...

 

I mean c'mon, Sidious strikes a Jedi or Jedimaster down with his very first strike? It is ok if Sidious is able to defeat common Jedi in mere seconds, but please, at least make it seem like Sidious is masterfully good, killing them off with spectacular moves.

 

The way it was done in Episode 3 suggests that Jedi can't even parry one single damn swing.

[AJL]

I think weapons should kill faster... (It shouldn't take 50 cuts with vibroblade

or lightsaber to kill someone.) It might take 50 attacks of course if almost all

of them are blocked... but not so many cuts or woulds or...

 

And I think they should seriously limit the force powers ability to hit multiple

enemies at the same time... Preferably make them always hit only one target

per attack. (Just more powerfull on higher levels) And there definitely should

not be any 360 degree powers...

[PoiuyWired]

I like the 360 degree attack. I mean, you are a Hero, not thsoe useless agricorp rejects. You are supposet to be great with the force. Now what they should o is create tougher enemies, actually, MORE ENEMIES TO SWARM AT THE SAME TIME. That way 360 attack is not too bad. I mean, I am tired of seeing like 5 weaklings vs 3 jedis. At least let the computer somewhat even the odds with those mini boss fight sequences.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Umm. Did you see the clone wars series? Jedi Masters are gods on the battlefield. I think the reason why the clones were able to kill the Jedi is because they were created for soley that reason (as well as for the war). Yes a Jedi could not block 5 shots in different places but that is why you do not stay still. He could have jumped over the troops and carved them up... or even just pushed the lot of them over. This was a pathetic way for the Jedi Order to fall and caused alot of controvercy. The truth is a Jedi is a one man army. Why did it take a Jedi to defeat Darth Vader? They would have just sent an assassin group of troops to take him out if a Jedi/Sith fell so easily. We see Jedi LEADING the battlefields on the front line... tell me that is not uber lol.

 

I guess i answered my own question why order 66 worked so well. The Jedi were on the front line and could not face two armies at the same time (in terms of concentration and prediction). The clones are... well clones with not the normal minds of people which makes their thoughts difficult to read. Last and most importantly, the Clones are the elite of the elite and were also programmed to kill Jedi.

 

The padawan fell because he was a small boy who did brilliantly for his size and experience.

 

hmm. i never saw the clone wars series but if that's true, that's really wierd. i'd still rather believe ep 3, though. it seems more real, in a way. i never believed in the whole "one man uber god army that kills zillions and zillions of people and pwns everything" kind of thing. a jedi may have the force, but you shoot them, they die. have a dozen people shooting them at the same time, and they will definitely die. i'd understand if you believe in the uber god stuff, though Anyway, as for the balance, the reason i always felt it was so easy was because you have all kinds of items like energy shields, madpacks, and stimulants, but you never really need to use them.

[Ancient Sith]

I think it was pretty well balanced. The beginning was not to hard, so I was not put off because my character got wasted before I could do anything. Then there is a gray area in the middle where some parts were difficult (like Vrook, I get no greater joy in that game than killing him), and then by the end my character can't be touched, he/she is many times stronger than every foot troop or Dark Jedi, which is how it should be.

[JediMasterJambi]

My 2 cents

 

-On Topic-

The game was...well...O.K. I mean, I didn't struggle. There were a few hard parts that actually killed me. All-in-all It could have been harder, and I would have enjoyed a little more difficulty.

 

-The Clone Wars-

Common now guys.

We must remember that in the Clone Wars the Jedi were mostly fighting

!DROIDS! >.<

Droids vs Jedi = Pwnt Pieces of Metal

 

-Now for Order 66-

1: Was carried out by Clone Troopers (Not Droids )

2: Clone Troopers that were genetically altered, Troopers that were cloned directly from Jango Fett. Whom if I recall, actually held his ground quite well against Obi-Wan Kenobi himself.

3: If I remember correctly, Yoda states that The Council's fore-sight is unusable, before the order was carried out. Clouded by The Dark-Side

4: The Jedi Masters were ambushed BY THEIR OWN "ALLIES". They wouldn't have been if their sight wasn't clouded by the Dark Side of the force.

 

-Yoda vs Vandar-

Jedi of the "Movies Period" and Jedi of the "KOTOR Period" are like....1000 year apart...right? Kreia said that the Jedi of KOTOR's period were as children when compared to the Jedi of their past. I would assume this would apply for the Jedi in the movies as well.

 

-Storm Troopers Should PWN LUKE-

No. Kammino Rebelled against the Empire very soon after Order 66 was issued. The Empire then decided to clone different people instead of using the same sample for all their troopers. Storm Troopers aren't clones of Jango Fett. In fact, the Elite Storm Trooper squad, the 501st (Or Vader's First) were the remaining pure clones from Jango Fetts DNA.

WOOOT FOR BATTLEFRONT!!!

Therefore CLONE TROOPERS !MAY! have actually been VERY UBER.

SilentScope001

 

-Gods and Men-

Jedi aren't gods However, they're VERY powerful. Despite this, given the correct siuation and conditions, they can be easily killed. You also have to remeber, certain Jedi's are MUCH, MUCH, more powerful then others.

[Robb Stark]

-Yoda vs Vandar-

Jedi of the "Movies Period" and Jedi of the "KOTOR Period" are like....1000 year apart...right? Kreia said that the Jedi of KOTOR's period were as children when compared to the Jedi of their past. I would assume this would apply for the Jedi in the movies as well.

 

Movies=present

~1000 years ago: Darth Bane establishes "The Rule of Two"

~4000 years ago: KotOR

~5000 years ago: Great Hyperspace War-Sith Empire vs. Republic

~7000 years ago: Ajunta Pall and other Dark Jedi are exiled and come upon the ancient Sith; eventually claim the title(s) Dark Lord(s) of the Sith

 

Kreia's comment was in reference to Tulak Hord and lighsabers. She claimed that Jedi of the KotOR period wielded lightsabers as if they were children playing with toys compared to Hord's lightsaber mastery. Hord would have existed somewhere between about 7000 and 5000 years before the movies. While what Kreia says might be true, she posits that there may be a holocron in which his knowledge is imparted. While there may be truth in what Kreia says, it doesn't guarantee that movie-era Jedi are worse with a lightsaber than Sith Empire-era Jedi, let alone KotOR-era Jedi.

 

Anyway...

 

As far as difficulty goes:

 

IN MY OPINION:

 

The "boss" characters were way too weak. I'm fine with the XP fodder in the form of attack droids, laigreks, cannoks, rodian bouny hunters, Sith assassins/soldiers, etc. etc., but the unique enemies didn't employ AI/tactics that really differed from the fodder. Basically the AI combat script for everything was "IF out of melee range, shoot blaster weapon if possible, ELSE close to melee range and use sword or lightsaber." If they are Dark Jedi they may use Drain Life when their HP is low. And all that also applies to Nihilus, Sion, and Traya. Truly, the use of Force Powers by the computer is pathetic. The Immunity and Breach powers are completely pointless in light of that.

 

Hard battles: Vrook, final Echani duel at Atris's, the three HK-50s on the snowy mesa of Telos...that's about it.

[Hallucination]

Kreia's comment was in reference to Tulak Hord and lighsabers. She claimed that Jedi of the KotOR period wielded lightsabers as if they were children playing with toys compared to Hord's lightsaber mastery. Hord would have existed somewhere between about 7000 and 5000 years before the movies. While what Kreia says might be true, she posits that there may be a holocron in which his knowledge is imparted. While there may be truth in what Kreia says, it doesn't guarantee that movie-era Jedi are worse with a lightsaber than Sith Empire-era Jedi, let alone KotOR-era Jedi.

I'd just like to point out that the movie-era Jedi would be almost guaranteed to lose to KOTOR- and Sith Empire-era Jedi due to the fact that they would learn to fight mostly against blaster-wielding opponents, because they are the most likely threat.

[Robb Stark]

I'd just like to point out that the movie-era Jedi would be almost guaranteed to lose to KOTOR- and Sith Empire-era Jedi due to the fact that they would learn to fight mostly against blaster-wielding opponents, because they are the most likely threat.

 

Yeah, I agree. The duels in the prequel trilogy should have been a lot more sloppy-looking IMO simply because, as you point out, the focus of training would have been using the lightsaber against blaster-wielding opponents.

 

I would grant the possibility, though, that knowledge was recovered over the few thousand years after KotOR that might have resulted in improved technique, or that technique improved over a few thousand years of fighting the Sith before they "disappeared" following Darth Bane. One could even imagine, though of course there is no proof, that the Jedi of the movie-era kept their saber skills sharp as a legacy of the forgotten memory of fighting the Sith, in case they should ever return.

[Prime]

2: Clone Troopers that were genetically enhanced, Troopers that were cloned directly from Jango Fett.

They were genetically altered, not enhanced. Only their mental makeup and growth rate were altered. The weren't physically stronger or faster that a regular human, apart from being in great shape and having military training.

[JediMasterJambi]

TY Prime. Altered, not enchaned, my bad > . <

 

What I was trying to say was that they grew faster than normal humans.

Like you said, they were all in near-peak physical condition, and they were all mentally conditioned aswell.

^.^

[GarfieldJL]

They were clones of Boba Fett's Dad! They're uber in their own right seriously, Boba Fett actually took on Darth Vader before for goodness sakes.

 

Also the exile was a deadspot in the force.

 

It's extremely easy for the LSM to mop the floor with people due to the wisdom modifier to defense, especially as a consular/jedi master.

 

2 sabers was overpowered badly though.

[SilentScope001]

They were genetically altered, not enhanced. Only their mental makeup and growth rate were altered. The weren't physically stronger or faster that a regular human, apart from being in great shape and having military training.

 

Mental makeup does seem to me enhanced. Uber-intelligence after all is what allows for great marksmenship, which is prized on the Battlefield. According to the Battlefront description of the Clone Sniper for the Clone Army...originally, snipers, like in real life, are chosen due to markmenship. However, since every trooper is equally super-intelligent (and therefore, all having the ability to do well in aiming), the Generals just randomly choose a Clone Trooper and "flash-train" it to be a sniper.

 

Now that I think about it, that could explain why the Clone Troopers killed the Jedi off in the Code 66 operation. Having flash-training and all equally being good at aiming, they could have just shot the Jedi in the head, and have done so with such good reflexes that the Jedi could not react. It's not the Force, it's their genetic enhancement.

[Rockstar]

Please read the following

 

 

OK, there is an arguement here. Are Jedi near gods or people with some tricks up their sleeves

 

BOTH ARE CORRECT. Jedi vary in ability. A converted Atton Jedi would probably die against a clone 1v1 whilst Mace Windu could probably take on 30 at once and win

 

JANGO FETT WAS THE MOST ELITE OF THE ELITE!!! He was superhuman in his own right! He was the Yoda of warriors and they cloned him. Jedi were fighting groups of Yoda equivlent warriors.

 

The clones were not enhansed physically. HOWEVER, they were hollow shells that did nothing but train, eat and sleep. Train, eat, sleep... day in day out. This results in more pure physical enhansements than any science could ever create. The clones were the gods of warriors and helped own an army of droids.

 

Powerful Jedi are gods and the only thing that can cloud them (beyond reason) is the darkside. The reality is only the top 20% of Jedi are truely amazing and only the top 5% probably ever reach this 'godlike' state. Obiwan and Yoda, together fought through the clones.

 

The Jedi were clouded by the darkside, occupied by the battlefield and against the elite, who would make no mistakes. This is why they fell. Against storm troopers I doubt the result would have been the same.

[Lord Spitfire]

I think that the Jedi/Sith battles should be longer (in KotOR2, not the Clone wars gibberish that ths thread has become), and that there should be better AI.

[Marauder's Fury]

Oh, yes. AI. You've got so many powers to use, yet you never need to use many of them. Malak fought better than the Sith triumvirate, and I made good use of Force Breach and Force Immunity while fighting him, but even that wasn't enough. Opponents rarely use medpacs/shields, let alone stims. They don't bother running from grenades, either. And why nobody ever activates Master Speed? Now that'd make a great difference. Imagine Sion hacking through your defenses with at least three attacks per round.

 

I know you can mod the game and all, but... since when do we have to mod our games to make them challenging? I'm all for role-playing (I only play RPGs and adventure games anyway), but I don't wanna sit back and watch an interactive movie where I just need to move the mouse a bit in-between.

[Prime]

Mental makeup does seem to me enhanced.

But it wasn't. They were just trained for one purpose. Their minds were not enhanced in any way. Only what was put into it was different from an average person.

 

Uber-intelligence after all is what allows for great marksmenship, which is prized on the Battlefield.

Intelligence is not a major component to marksmanship. It has everything to do with specialized training, hand-eye coordination, and most importantly, practice, practice, practice.

 

According to the Battlefront description of the Clone Sniper for the Clone Army...originally, snipers, like in real life, are chosen due to markmenship. However, since every trooper is equally super-intelligent (and therefore, all having the ability to do well in aiming), the Generals just randomly choose a Clone Trooper and "flash-train" it to be a sniper.

Actually, clones were not more intelligent than the average human, and certainly weren't super intelligent. All the flash training ment was that they could take any clone, since they were all equal intelligent (which is to say, average) and give them specialized training up front.

 

Now that I think about it, that could explain why the Clone Troopers killed the Jedi off in the Code 66 operation. Having flash-training and all equally being good at aiming, they could have just shot the Jedi in the head, and have done so with such good reflexes that the Jedi could not react. It's not the Force, it's their genetic enhancement.

Again, there are not genetic enhancements. Just alterations to make them mature faster and more docile. All they were were very skilled soldiers with excellent equipment. Nothing more.

 

JANGO FETT WAS THE MOST ELITE OF THE ELITE!!! He was superhuman in his own right! He was the Yoda of warriors and they cloned him. Jedi were fighting groups of Yoda equivlent warriors.

Fett wasn't superhuman either. Just very skilled.

 

The clones were not enhansed physically. HOWEVER, they were hollow shells that did nothing but train, eat and sleep. Train, eat, sleep... day in day out. This results in more pure physical enhansements than any science could ever create.

But their training wasn't exclusively physical in nature by any stretch. Much (most?) of the training was devoted to skills development. Also remember that since the clones were so young (~10-15 years old), they really lacked the experience that makes many soldiers so good. Training only goes so far. That is why they needed Jedi as generals. They were neighter particularly intelligent or experienced enough to be tactical leaders.

 

The clones were the gods of warriors and helped own an army of droids.

They were nowhere near gods, and many were killed by droids and other Seperatist human/alien forces. A super battle droid was more than a match for a clone, and the GAR was defeated on several worlds by local human militia.

 

Powerful Jedi are gods and the only thing that can cloud them (beyond reason) is the darkside. The reality is only the top 20% of Jedi are truely amazing and only the top 5% probably ever reach this 'godlike' state. Obiwan and Yoda, together fought through the clones.

The Jedi were nowhere near gods either, which was made painfully clear by Order 66. Most Jedi, even the elite council members, were killed by a handful of clones. Many Jedi were killed by one shot from a single battle droid.

 

You've got so many powers to use' date=' yet you never need to use many of them.[/quote']But isn't that the problem? There are so many powers you will never need them all, and many of them don't really have any relation to Star Wars in the first place. I would say the game would be better off with less powers but more uses for each of them.

[Marauder's Fury]

But isn't that the problem? There are so many powers you will never need them all, and many of them don't really have any relation to Star Wars in the first place. I would say the game would be better off with less powers but more uses for each of them.

 

Yeah, but the game needs its Burning Hands, its Charm Person, and even its Power Word Kill. Not that I'm happy with KotOR Jedi (or any other Jedi from Star Wars RPGs) imitating D&D priests and wizards. Heck, I even hate the AD&D3 system which is a true disgrace to the concept of mechanical balance.

[Rockstar]

The Jedi were nowhere near gods either, which was made painfully clear by Order 66. Most Jedi, even the elite council members, were killed by a handful of clones. Many Jedi were killed by one shot from a single battle droid

 

Prime, Prime, Prime The Jedi on the battlefield were clouded by the darkside of the empiror and attacked by thier own allies. These allies were clones and would be much more difficult to read than a normal person (which the jedi would have foreseen). Clones don't have an agenda of their own and the moment they were given their order, they immediately changed and opened fire on the jedi. The Jedi could have predicted this if it were a group of say, mercinaries. Yoda was so powerful he could predict even clones behind him as he sensed the other Jedi.

 

Many Jedi were killed by one shot from a single battle droid

 

How many shots does it take to kill anything dude? ONE! A jedi makes sure he doesn't get hit. Mace Windu in the Clone Wars defeated an army of droids unarmed half the time... I want you to see Ep2 and the scene you are speaking of. THOUSANDS OF BATTLEDROIDS vs under 50 Jedi completely flanked... To have any Jedi survivors shows a 'godlike' ability.