**rant** TSL [spoilers]

[stoffe]

And while Kreia's predictions are pretty good, I've always thought the originally planned endings were better, where your companions could end up being killed, possibly by each other.

 

Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

 

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I guess you said it yourself. Enforced conscription means that the troopers HATE you and are not loyal to the Empire. Clones canonically obey orders without question and hence is more dependable. I think the majority of Stormtroopers are Clone Troopers, though there is possibly some drafting going on. (In the article, it states that slowly, and slowly, Clone Troopers make up a minority of the whole Stromtroopers, but they do exist, and I can assume they are much more elitle than a regural Stromtrooper, if you trust what the 501st Divison person in "BF2" claims).

 

No, they obey. Of course, they obey by fear, the Empire could well take revenge on the family of a suposed sotrmtrooper traitor.

 

 

 

 

Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

 

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.

 

I dont think so. I mean, you dont even know what happens to your party. That's equally frustrating. BTW, you say you dont like seeing your friends (friends that took you several hours to improve their capabilities) dying, then I just cant imagine you seeing your party dying on Kotor I DS ending. And I really thinks that the same thing would happen on the second game: Your party killing themselves would just happy on a DS ending.

[Jediphile]

I dont think so. I mean, you dont even know what happens to your party. That's equally frustrating. BTW, you say you dont like seeing your friends (friends that took you several hours to improve their capabilities) dying, then I just cant imagine you seeing your party dying on Kotor I DS ending. And I really thinks that the same thing would happen on the second game: Your party killing themselves would just happy on a DS ending.

 

Yes, your entire party goes -poof- once you reach Malachor. Sure, you get to see G0T0 and Mira again, but they come out of the blue, and you don't even get to see what becomes of them. The rest just all disappear into thin air

 

Besides, IIRC the companions fighting each other would occur, if the exile is DS and you have more influence with Visas or Disciple than with Handmaiden or Atton (depending on gender). For the female LS exile, Atton would fight Sion instead and possibly die (if he loses the fight), which is really quite moving. I mean, just check on this site and scroll down to read or hear it: http://tubertarian.com/kotor2missingcontent.php

[Henz]

The influence system was sucky as a lot of what the idea built toward was removed i.e. The above menitoned party member/fights deaths. People may not be so happy with that idea now but there wouldn't have been a choice it it was in place on release. I think it makes the influence system and the plot stonger.

[SilentScope001]

Well, you can't contorl who actually lives and dies in that battle (Visas vs. Handmadien for instance). Sion vs. Atton battle might be tolerable, but not Visas vs. Handmadien [because I love both characters and would not wish to see either of them be killed off]. So, I can see stoffe's worry.

[RedHawke]

Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

 

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.

Agreed, that would have annoyed me as well. This is simply bad storytelling, and I am also glad Obsidian 'woke up' and pulled the NPC cutscenes from the end game in TSL.

[Jediphile]

Agreed, that would have annoyed me as well. This is simply bad storytelling, and I am also glad Obsidian 'woke up' and pulled the NPC cutscenes from the end game in TSL.

 

Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?

[Ztalker]

Dang....good arguments everywhere...

 

Maybe a mixture of those two type of endings is possible?

I recall a modder tried to make a 'after-game' content in which your party stands around you in the medbay after you are rescued from Malachor. That would be a perfect ending, without anoying casualties

[RedHawke]

Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?

Their fates were revealed from the dialog with Kreia... good enough for me. It is also the better option for having a next installment as well.

 

Do I 'feel' the ending was 'rushed'? Yeah, a little, but the ending we got was a complete one (Quite a TESB feel to it as well).

[stoffe]

Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?

 

Not much better, but still marginally more preferable since it leaves the ending more open to your own interpretation and imagination as to what happened. Seeing your characters getting chopped to bits with a lightsaber in a cutscene leaves little room to imagine the outcome of the story more like you'd want it to end, in my opinion.

[Jediphile]

The characters killing each other was only if you played DS. How them killing each other is so much worse than DS Revan killing them all (or most of them) in KotOR confuses me a bit to be honest...

 

As for the predictions, they are just that - predictions: vague clues that mean and say very little but are easily established as "true" after the fact. And naturally they say nothing about what become of your companions. Am I better off knowing that Mira will be killed many years from now? Not in my humble opinion - I'd much rather not know that, so that the fate of Mira (or any of the characters) is not set in stone, unless they are killed during the actual plot itself. Besides, Mira fate is questionable, and so she at least cannot appear in the next game. Why? Well, if the Exile was DS, then she was killed by Hanharr on Nar Shaddaa. If the Exile was LS, then she could instead die at Hanharr's hands on Malachor V. And if she does, you'll note that the Exile does not have the option to ask about her fate when Kreia makes predictions. So either way, Mira is in the same limbo as Atris - she could easily be alive or dead, and since that is the player's choice, they are unlikely to turn up in the next game (assuming there is one).

[PoiuyWired]

Well, for the record I HATE that you HAVE TO kill Mision in k1... I mean it would be reasonable if there is a choice to just knock her out instead of killing her, she is a loyal little girl anyways. As for Jolee and Juhani, well... they start attacking first...

 

A for K2, well, I rather KNOW where the rest of the party goes than a few simple words from a dying decietful hag. Atton getting killed by Sion seems to be a befitting ending, as much as I love the character. I would leap up in joy to see stalker mike get killed though, but I assume there are actually fans of him also. It would hurt to see handmaiden and Visas kill off each other though, even as I am not a big fan of handmaiden, Visas is better.

 

But still, an ending of death is better than no ending. A "to be continued" type ending really SUCKS.

[Diego Varen]

I prefer TSL to KOTOR overall, answering the first post and I agree with those who support TSL. Anyway, with this little debate going on, I'll say my views.

 

@ PoiuyWired: I like and dislike the To Be Continued feel to films, games or anything. Cliffhangers make me want to find out what happens next. This is what I'm suffering with KOTOR III, the next Tomb Raider after Legend and the next Indiana Jones.

 

@ Jediphile: Mira might not be killed. Kreia could be wrong about the fate of the galaxy, although she isn't wrong about one thing that is in the Star Wars Saga, in the Prequel Trilogy. I myself would've liked some deaths in TSL, but then the game would become a bit too depressing for my liking.

[SilentScope001]

Prehaps the better idea would be to just to see a cutscene of you leaving everyone behind. Mira, Atton, everyone. Explain it by Kreia saying that you must battle her ALONE. Goto and HK will most likely hitch a ride via some other method, and the Monitor could safely be given by Bao-Dur to help explode the Malachor V. Everyone else is at Telos Academcy, rebuilding the Jedi/Sith. The Exile promises to come back after Malachor V goes "Boom!"...but he won't follow through his promises when he learn of Revan and the True Sith.

 

You know of their fates quite well, and the predictions become key in figuring out what happens after you leave your party members.

[Henz]

Not much better, but still marginally more preferable since it leaves the ending more open to your own interpretation and imagination as to what happened. Seeing your characters getting chopped to bits with a lightsaber in a cutscene leaves little room to imagine the outcome of the story more like you'd want it to end, in my opinion.

Them turning on eachother (as Jediphile said) is only a DS outcome which makes sense as you were influencing them into a darker mindstate. I liked this idea. I wouldn't have been bothered if this was handled in cutscenes either as these are party members, not your PC. They shouldn't be totally controlled by you. That your choices in the game beforehand decides their outcome is enough control. To me the influence idea was left redundant by these cuts to alternate endings. The trust you built/destroyed didn't lead to anything.

[SilentScope001]

@ Jediphile: Mira might not be killed. Kreia could be wrong about the fate of the galaxy, although she isn't wrong about one thing that is in the Star Wars Saga, in the Prequel Trilogy. I myself would've liked some deaths in TSL, but then the game would become a bit too depressing for my liking.

 

Kreia: Alright, I admit it. I can predict the coming of Palpatine and the death of Jango Fett, but I cannot predict Mira's fate. My bad. Sorry.

 

To be quite fair, Mira is going to die anyway. How come? She's a human. You can't expect me to believe Mira is still going to live 4000 years later?

[Ztalker]

Originally posted by SilentScope001

To be quite fair, Mira is going to die anyway. How come? She's a human. You can't expect me to believe Mira is still going to live 4000 years later?

 

Complete different context. We want to know Mira's fate, because of a possible Kotor 3. Since her fate is unknown, I suppose she won't be in it.

Of course she isn't alive around the time of the Empire

[stoffe]

The characters killing each other was only if you played DS. How them killing each other is so much worse than DS Revan killing them all (or most of them) in KotOR confuses me a bit to be honest...

 

Hmm, I was under the impression it was going to happen if at any time you had too much influence with Visas compared to the Handmaiden, or too much influence with Disciple compared to Atton, regardless of the force disposition of the Exile. Like how Handmaiden currently refuses to talk to you for the rest of the game if at any time you have 30 more influence with Visas than with her. (Requiring metagaming and OOC knowledge to get the proper outcome in the game, since it doesn't matter how much influence you gain with either, just the order you gain influence with them.)

 

If it only happens as part of the Darkside ending, and it isn't a mandatory "no matter what" event, then I wouldn't mind if it was in the game (since I wouldn't see it anyway). Evil characters deserve an ending with a bitter after-taste (like in VtM:Bloodlines).

[Pavlos]

Them turning on eachother (as Jediphile said) is only a DS outcome which makes sense as you were influencing them into a darker mindstate. I liked this idea. I wouldn't have been bothered if this was handled in cutscenes either as these are party members, not your PC. They shouldn't be totally controlled by you. That your choices in the game beforehand decides their outcome is enough control. To me the influence idea was left redundant by these cuts to alternate endings. The trust you built/destroyed didn't lead to anything.

 

A lot of the endings are determined by how much more influence you have with companion x than y (I think). The party members in question (Atton, or Handmaiden) were to be manipulated by Kreia in various (read: two) Ebon Hawk scenes which are still in the game - I think.

 

The Atton vs. Sion scene would have been player determined - the player would gain control of Atton at the end of the dialogue and fight Sion. If he loses the fight then Atton is destroyed/remade by Sion, if he doesn't then he meets the Exile at the end of the game and the two walk off together. There are, obviously, other endings to the game but those are the ones that spring to mind at this point.

[SilentScope001]

If Pavlos is right, then I side with stoffe, and say the endings ARE railroady. We can't really manlipuate the endings to get what we want, we have to purposely make certain people mad...

 

But, can one chcange it so that it only happens to DS Party Members? If Atton is DS or Handmadien is DS, Kreia starts manliputing on the Ebon Hawk. This allows for DS players to set up the endings, corrupting their party members and then seeing them kill each other...And it allows for LS Party Members to somehow "repel" Atton and Handmadien, making them mad and thereby causing them to fall to the DS {don't know why someone would want that to happen though!}

[Jediphile]

If it only happens as part of the Darkside ending, and it isn't a mandatory "no matter what" event, then I wouldn't mind if it was in the game (since I wouldn't see it anyway). Evil characters deserve an ending with a bitter after-taste (like in VtM:Bloodlines).

 

Precisely, and I think we can assume it was never meant to be a "no matter what" event, since it would otherwise be virtually impossible to trigger the companions vs. Traya bit, where your companions confront Traya only to be captured. That bit had both Visas, Handmaiden/Disciple, Atton, and Mira in it.

 

I also agree that companions killing each other is appropriate only to a DS character. After all, if you like your companions so much, then why did you corrupt them? You really do deserve nothing less in that case. Atton's tragic end was also to be optional, because I think that was a player-controlled fight similar to the Handmaiden vs. Atris fight.

[Phantasmgrl91]

Well, I suppose I'll put my 2 cents in. The first kotor was a amazing, nobody is questioning that. And my first time playing through kotor I did not enjoy it as much, but the second time I played through it I enjoyed it much more and it has sort of grown on my. I like alot of the added stuff and I actually enjoy the NPCs in kotor 2 more than the first. I felt canderous and big z were very forgettable and I really didn't need them in my party. I suppose I could say the same about several from kotor 2 but I generally like them more. if kotor 1 didn't exsist and I had only played kotor 2 the basics of the game alone would automatically make it one of my favorites. I think kotor 2 dispite all the issues it does have in terms of writing gets a bad name because it simply doesn't live up to #1. Thats what I think

 

So basically, standing alone I think kotor 2 is a great game, had kotor 1 never come out then kotor 2 I think everyone here would love

[SilentScope001]

I also agree that companions killing each other is appropriate only to a DS character. After all, if you like your companions so much, then why did you corrupt them?

 

Are you stupid? If I do not corrupt them, they will follow the self-defeating path of pacisism! I cannot let that happen, I love my companions, and to have them be weakened by their adherence to the outdated Jedi Code and "morals" is something that I cannot allow happen. I have to corrupt them to save them.