Henz Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 ^ Ah but a great deal of people don't want to be a loner Jedi; so surely the choice should be there for them. The Jedi option of rejection should be included too of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 ^^ Jedi are never alone - that's where they differ from the Sith, who are always alone (since they can trust no one). As Anakin said, "we are encouraged to love". Not being alone does not mean being in a relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henz Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 ^ Nice technicality. I wasn't actually saying that being a Jedi means you having to be without companions. If the player wants their character to be in a relationship, shouldn't that option be in the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 If not romance, then I really would like some deep friendships explored. Because as much as the Jedi balk about the dreaded attachment, it really does power the SW universe as much as the Force, and its power is hardly confined to the Jedi. I mean, why did Luke abandon his training? Why did Vader send the Emporer on a bungee-jump sans bungee cord? Why did Han walk into the carbonite? Why did Obi-Wan let himself be killed? What shocked Ullic out of the Dark Side's insanity? Why did Nomi Sunrider pick up a lightsaber? Force Users can treat love like it's the worst thing imaginable, but if anything, love's got more kick than the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARTH_DANZIG Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Ok, I'll put it like this. How about, no, you won't put it like that? --Jae Yeah, more romance options, just as much as more violence and peace options. Life is about to variety, and if all we did was roll around on the same hill, most of us couldn't breath anymore because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildboar Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 after having done both the dark and light versions of the story line... i have to say that what TSL needed was more story/content completion in general. having said that, it is my opinion that: there would have been more to what was going on with the romance. it seems to be there right from the start. when atton first meets the female pc the interaction is heavy with physical attraction comments and then when disciple is added in there is the addition of fear on attons part that the disciple might be of interest to the pc... when you do it as a male, there are a lot of similar hints that they were working on it... mira interaction comes to mind where she says something to the effect of "don't you think i am a little young?" (sorry if that is off, has been a while since i did tsl) and other conversation with her about visas and handmaiden. imo, there are even hints that queen talia is coming to love master kavar. or... the administrator and vrook even. (i know... i have a vivid imagination... what can i say) it always seemed to me that there was a lot of intent to place that stuff into TSL, much in the spirit of all the SW material that is out there. it just never got into the finished product. just like most of the material after you return to duxn/onderon for the 2nd time, it is missing... LOTS! i felt like i had been dropped off a cliff. how can atton, disciple, handmaiden, visas or even mandalor express any feeling about the pc... when they for the most part never are available after that point. anyway i risk getting off topic. suffice to say, i think that the main reason that there is not a well flushed out romance is that they were forced to push the product out the door before they were done. romance was one of the things that got left on the editing floor. there were comments above about pg-13 and i agree it should stick to what seems to be the SW style of showing love and relationships. esp: the quandary of being a jedi with all these restrictions on that topic, and human nature being at odds with that. also i agree that it should not be shoved down your throat. it would hint there was a path to further dialog, but you didn't have to take it. i know i would follow those paths, i like them. imo, there are many examples that this is the path that they would have taken anyways... it's the way they do a lot of the expansive dialog... you can tell the npc talking to "leave me alone" even, if you don't want to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joetheeskimo Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Like many above posters, I was also disappointed with the romance in TSL. Even as a Male character. I was under the impression there was actually a romance plot with Handmaiden and Visas...but it was pathetic compared to the K1 plot! ...Ah, we have no life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceAlex Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 after having done both the dark and light versions of the story line... i have to say that what TSL needed was more story/content completion in general..... anyway i risk getting off topic. suffice to say, i think that the main reason that there is not a well flushed out romance is that they were forced to push the product out the door before they were done. romance was one of the things that got left on the editing floor. I belive TSLRP will fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Foley Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 No. The romance options are fine the way they are. To put in more would be to detract from the importance of the story. We need more emphasis on your party members than in KotOR II, (especially in Bao-Dur and Canderous), but putting in more romance would be a distraction from the story of the Jedi and Sith, which is far more important. We need to keep the story aimed in one direction so the climax can be more powerful. In KotOR I, i felt that the real climax was facing Bastilla in the Rakatan Temple. In KotOR II, I found that the climax was heading to Dantooine for the second time. We need to aim the climax to be the end of the game this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 No. The romance options are fine the way they are. To put in more would be to detract from the importance of the story. We need more emphasis on your party members than in KotOR II, (especially in Bao-Dur and Canderous), but putting in more romance would be a distraction from the story of the Jedi and Sith, which is far more important. We need to keep the story aimed in one direction so the climax can be more powerful. In KotOR I, i felt that the real climax was facing Bastilla in the Rakatan Temple. In KotOR II, I found that the climax was heading to Dantooine for the second time. We need to aim the climax to be the end of the game this time. That's why I think the romance should be optional. If someone doesn't want to take part in the romance, that's fine, but if they do, then they have the choice to. The problem with the romance of TSL, in my opinion, was not because there wasn't "enough", but because it wasn't well done. Obviously, there was some tension between Atton and Mical, but all they ever did was argue once and it was over. Atton had a few remarks that he only makes if the Exile is female, but that's about it. If the Exile was male, then you really never had any romantic options with any of them except for a slight reference with Visas - that line before you go to the Ravager, "Then let us look upon each other." With Brianna, the only instance you got was, "For a moment, I though I had lost you." And even that is hardly a "romantic" line. With Mira, there is absolutely nothing. You might be able to make a suggestion to her, but she promptly rejects you. That's just not very good writing, in my opinion. Obsidian did great on everything else except for the romance options. That's why I hope they either don't put any romance in at all and just focus on the story, or they really improve drastically between now and whenever they might be developing it. That is, assuming Obsidian would be making it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoiuyWired Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Well, Brianna is created in a really non-romantic way for a reason. Basically you can have all the physical intimacy you want with it, sparring like crazy and what not, but there is few, if any, mental exchange. Visas on the other hand, gets really intimate with you mentally. Problem about Visas is that everything that is to be done with her can be done in less than 5 minutes, and that kinda takes away the fun of it. As said, yes its done poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOD Radu Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Yeah more romance, more guns, more sexyness, better characters, much more violance...a lot more. They should combine tones of violance and romance in the sith way of life. Much more darkness...yes darkness I AM DARKNESS...I AM SHADOW...I AM THE ARCHITECT OF YOUR DISTRUCTION! Welcome to the forums, GOD Radu. Please don't double post--if you want to add to something you just posted, go the the 'edit this' link in the bottom right corner of your post, click it, and add in whatever you want to say. Please review the Forum Rules. We delete off topic/spam posts, and it's only fair to let you know just what those are. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM a moderator or administrator. Thanks, Jae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade shiseido Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Romances in RPG's are a necessity; afterall art reflects life. Love, hate, vengeance, compassion, violence, forgiveness, betrayal, redemption, these are the foundations upon which great dramas are made, regardless of the genre. I can't imagine playing a RPG that is solely composed of quests, killing, mission dialogue, leveling up...*yawn* boredom. I like my characters to be emotionally well rounded, conflicted; a reluctant hero or heroine. I can relate to them better and therefore feel more immersed in the game. Give me flirting, give me romantic dialogue, oh and a little kiss or hug will be nice before I risk my asterick saving all mankind from destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish.Stapler Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were... I agree to some extent. However, they had teasers of romance in K2, which is what people really didn't like. For me, it's really an all-or-nothing idea. For example, in K3 you should have to option to romance with some party members and get a genuine romance going on. If you don't start it, they could start it and make the advances on you, and if you wanted to be a Jedi-style character you could flatly reject them. Thats the end of that, then they're just normal party members again. Basically, I want the option to be there, so you can choose to have romances or disregard it entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade shiseido Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were... If jedi aren't suppose to be in relationships, romantic or otherwise, how does the force continue to propagate? Where do all those force sensitive children come from? Are force sensitive beings merely reincarnations? Is the force something that pops-up at puberty like acne? Relationships are a given in any species. I think Jolee Bindo had the proper perspective on Jedi and love...love isn't necessarily a bad emotion for jedi to feel, its how the jedi chooses to react to the mindfield of feelings love can trigger. Put the romance option in the game as a selectable option...choose it like you would the gender of the playable character. Make it tasteful, well written, an optional side quest if need be, just let it be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Romances in RPG's are a necessity; afterall art reflects life. Love, hate, vengeance, compassion, violence, forgiveness, betrayal, redemption, these are the foundations upon which great dramas are made, regardless of the genre. I can't imagine playing a RPG that is solely composed of quests, killing, mission dialogue, leveling up...*yawn* boredom. I like my characters to be emotionally well rounded, conflicted; a reluctant hero or heroine. I can relate to them better and therefore feel more immersed in the game. Give me flirting, give me romantic dialogue, oh and a little kiss or hug will be nice before I risk my asterick saving all mankind from destruction. I disagree. There is no romance in the first Gothic game (in fact, hardly any women at all), and it's still a fine RPG. If jedi aren't suppose to be in relationships, romantic or otherwise, how does the force continue to propagate? Where do all those force sensitive children come from? Are force sensitive beings merely reincarnations? Is the force something that pops-up at puberty like acne? The force is a fact of life in Star Wars, and children will always be born force sensitive to some degree. Look at Bastila and Anakin Skywalker. None of their parents (only mother in Anakin's case) were force sensitive. Yet Bastila had powerful and unique Battle Meditation abilities even though none of her parents were force sensitive. So it's not as if the galaxy is going to run dry of force sensitives if jedi don't have children. Relationships are a given in any species. I think Jolee Bindo had the proper perspective on Jedi and love...love isn't necessarily a bad emotion for jedi to feel, its how the jedi chooses to react to the mindfield of feelings love can trigger. I'm not going to argue whether relationships are reasonable or not. I'm just stating that it is, for whatever reason, frowned upon in the KotOR era and that the games really should reflect that. So far they have gone to great lengths to establish it only to then promptly ignore it, and that is frankly quite annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henz Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 ^ The idea of and RPG in the Star Wars universe is that you choose whether or not your character has a love interest; cutting it out seems a little extreme. Many players won't even choose to be Jedi at all. Restricting this option is not to far from restricting Darkside choices, because Jedi wouldn't do those either. Maybe if people are that bothered by this option, the love stories should be implemented so you make the first move. At least that way people playing straight-Jedi-style can bypass any mention of Romance completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 The idea of and RPG in the Star Wars universe is that you choose whether or not your character has a love interest; cutting it out seems a little extreme. Many players won't even choose to be Jedi at all. Uhm... So far you haven't had that choice at all, since you were a jedi whether you liked it or not. Unless you decided not to buy the game, that is... Maybe if people are that bothered by this option, the love stories should be implemented so you make the first move. At least that way people playing straight-Jedi-style can bypass any mention of Romance completely. The problem with that is that you just then ignore a part of the game without getting anything in return. And so of course we're going to explore it - not necessarily because we're interested, but simply because we're curious about what the game has to offer. I mean, if romance is a bonus only, then why would I not choose it? The only way that would have appeal is if you must abandon love for some greater good. That could be cool, but I doubt it's going to happen, since people are going to cry foul that they actually have to choose between romance and saving the galaxy and can't have both. Besides, the real problem with romance in KotOR is how it's handled in TSL. I usually prefer TSL over KotOR, but it's definitely better in KotOR, especially if you're playing Revan as male, because you can save Bastila by letting the great and almighty Revan be vulnerable and admit his love for her. In short, it was significant in the plot and proved Jolee's point that "love will save you every time." I accepted it in KotOR for that reason alone. In TSL, however, it has no significance to the plot - at best it matters in the Atris-Handmaiden subplot if the exile is male - and so it is pointless and without resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henz Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Uhm... So far you haven't had that choice at all, since you were a jedi whether you liked it or not. Unless you decided not to buy the game, that is... Well okay, but the choice to be an unconventional one is there at least. An unconventional Jedi with a love interest should still be an option if somone wants to play that way. The problem with that is that you just then ignore a part of the game without getting anything in return. And so of course we're going to explore it - not necessarily because we're interested, but simply because we're curious about what the game has to offer. I mean, if romance is a bonus only, then why would I not choose it? The only way that would have appeal is if you must abandon love for some greater good. That could be cool, but I doubt it's going to happen, since people are going to cry foul that they actually have to choose between romance and saving the galaxy and can't have both. But you don't want romance at all..? The optional love story should be a bonus to those who further test the limits of gameplay. Again I state if people don't want to play the loe story out then they shouldn't opt for the romantic dialogue options. Ramifications could be implemented to this bonus plot too. A party member could die, but die with different levels of heartbreak depending on how close you became. People will cry foul about anything really though wont they? Besides, the real problem with romance in KotOR is how it's handled in TSL. I usually prefer TSL over KotOR, but it's definitely better in KotOR, especially if you're playing Revan as male, because you can save Bastila by letting the great and almighty Revan be vulnerable and admit his love for her. In short, it was significant in the plot and proved Jolee's point that "love will save you every time." I accepted it in KotOR for that reason alone. In TSL, however, it has no significance to the plot - at best it matters in the Atris-Handmaiden subplot if the exile is male - and so it is pointless and without resolution. I agree the KOTOR romance was much better handled, but we both know TSL had at least a slightly more satisfactory ending at some point before it was cut. Atton's death, and the party members turning on eachother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade shiseido Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 My whole issue with the star wars games, genre really, is this, its okay for a jedi to kill but not to love!?! Yes, ideally its preferred if a jedi can redeem, but killing is "approved" if a conversion doesn't occur. To me the jedi aren't that an emotionally armored group of individuals...what, the threat of a mere kiss and they fall to the dark side, but force push an opponent into oblivion and no emotional repercussions occur whatsoever? Violence in video games is the accepted standard, but add a little love dialogue between characters and suddenly the threat to jedidom reveals itself. Maybe the sith are going about things the wrong way, they should try galactic domination with the aid of Hallmark, FTD, and Barry White. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 But you don't want romance at all..? The optional love story should be a bonus to those who further test the limits of gameplay. Again I state if people don't want to play the loe story out then they shouldn't opt for the romantic dialogue options. Ramifications could be implemented to this bonus plot too. A party member could die, but die with different levels of heartbreak depending on how close you became. People will cry foul about anything really though wont they? The point is that not choosing explore the romance gives you nothing in return. You just lose out on a part of the game and that's it - the only difference lies in how much of the game you want to see and nothing else, and if you do choose love, then it never costs you anything - it only gives you options that are otherwise not there. It should be the other way around, because love in the real world often means compromising and making sacrifices. If the developers don't want that, then fine, only drop the romance stuff... I agree the KOTOR romance was much better handled, but we both know TSL had at least a slightly more satisfactory ending at some point before it was cut. Atton's death, and the party members turning on eachother. True, but it was still not significant in the plot. I mean, none of the exile's choices are going to be different due to any of the love interests, so what do they matter? They still wouldn't have mattered when you meet Kreia, and they still wouldn't have changed how the game ends - it was only a question of how many of them survived the game and nothing else. My whole issue with the star wars games, genre really, is this, its okay for a jedi to kill but not to love!?! Yes, ideally its preferred if a jedi can redeem, but killing is "approved" if a conversion doesn't occur. To me the jedi aren't that an emotionally armored group of individuals...what, the threat of a mere kiss and they fall to the dark side, but force push an opponent into oblivion and no emotional repercussions occur whatsoever? Violence in video games is the accepted standard, but add a little love dialogue between characters and suddenly the threat to jedidom reveals itself. Maybe the sith are going about things the wrong way, they should try galactic domination with the aid of Hallmark, FTD, and Barry White. Given what people have been willing to do out of love throughout history, I do think the jedi are correct in their concerns. Now, I'm not saying they're right, mind you, just that their concerns are not invalid. I mean, just look what love for Helen of Troy turned into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade shiseido Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Given what people have been willing to do out of love throughout history, I do think the jedi are correct in their concerns. Now, I'm not saying they're right, mind you, just that their concerns are not invalid. I mean, just look what love for Helen of Troy turned into... Dang Trojans and their four legged boobietraps. Not sure if I'd define the impetus for the Trojan war as love, more like lust and envy, and a lack of good looking women. But a war of love...now where do I sign-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Jedi aren't necessaqrily celibate. It's attachment that's a no no (and here's where I make cracks about the higher-end Coruscant brothels having a 10% discount upon proof of lightsaber). As for breeding stock, that's what the Service Corps (washouts) are for. The Service Corps types have the Force Sensitivity, but for one reason or another don't make the cut. Mical, for example, would be Service Corps. And take Kreia's description of Telos - a planet where those who failed at being Jedi were sent to become farmers and laborers. This is likely why Revan wanted the planet. Even those who've failed to achieve Padawan rank still have the raw material, and if you twist it just enough to make them question the Jedi's motives in passing them up? BOOM! Sith really can grow on trees. Force sensitivity is possibly much more common than admitted to, perhaps everyone is to a degree. Granted, the average person has a Force connection of a 14.4 modem while a Jedi's got a T1 line. Of course, something like that could create massive social chaos if word got out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Spy Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 No love! Attack of the Clones was ruined with lame romance scenes, not KOTOR III too! you don't need it, hopefully not much atleast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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