What should the True Sith BE Like?

[Prime]

Let's keep if friendly everyone.

 

Neither are you. If you can name a better source, I'm all ears.

Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Unlike Wookieepedia, everything comes directly from canon material (all sources listed), and does not have any fanon riddled throughout.

[Nancy Allen``]

Thanks. Hmmm, it describes the Exile as male. Does the site need to be updated or were the claims of the Exile being officiallyt female wrong?

[PoiuyWired]

Well, it is lucky that the only gender related Exile material is a "she" described in the Droids book. Which means that not much is known about her besides her being LSF, and technically we can still ignore many of the characters that we would not want to remember. Though it is known that the G0T0 HK/Remote conflict is canon.

 

Plus, he or she can be merely a description/placeholder to avoid using Revan/Exile in every single sentence.

[Jediphile]

Besides, what is established as fact for Revan? He defied the Jedi to fight the Mandalorians, then sought the Star Maps before returning to lead the Sith. All the details of what happens in the games is really up to the player, Revan being male and the light side ending being canon are even things open to scrutiny.

 

That's just the point. We know only the facts of what Revan did or did not do, precisely because Revan's motives are for the player to choose. One of the good things in TSL was that they had Kreia underscore that by voicing speculation about Revan's motives even before Malak's betrayal. Was Revan trying to create his/her own empire or was Revan trying to save the Republic? Well, you tell me - you're the one playing him/her. It's different to every player, and TSL preserved that idea.

[Nancy Allen``]

Well, it is lucky that the only gender related Exile material is a "she" described in the Droids book.

 

So...how many sources are needed for it to be official? Or is this one of those 'Han shoots first' type of things where no matter what people won't accept it?

[PoiuyWired]

Well, I accept Exile being Female. Though I am just trying to say that the exact nature of these characters are designed to be ambiguous and the fact of Revan/Exile being male/female should not have any "major" impact on things to come. More like, it would make things easier in designing future events.

 

Now, the "Han Shoots First" case is a whole different can of worms. Personally HAN SHOOTS FIRST FOREVER and I am sure most fans are with me on this, but yeah starting this topic anywhere in a star wars forum can't be good.

[Jediphile]

Well, I accept Exile being Female. Though I am just trying to say that the exact nature of these characters are designed to be ambiguous and the fact of Revan/Exile being male/female should not have any "major" impact on things to come. More like, it would make things easier in designing future events.

 

Personally I hate that they made the exile female in canon, both because the male exile story was far more interesting - Brianna is much better than Mical, and unlike Sion, Atris makes a lot of sense as a lost love interest - and also because I don't think we need to make precisely the most timid and lives-in-denial protagonist of ANY Star Wars game a woman.

 

But it doesn't matter what I think. The exile is canonically female, and that's that. I'll never accept it in the games, however - my exile is male. Period!

 

Now, the "Han Shoots First" case is a whole different can of worms. Personally HAN SHOOTS FIRST FOREVER and I am sure most fans are with me on this, but yeah starting this topic anywhere in a star wars forum can't be good.

 

The problem with changing the Solo/Greedo fight is that it undermines the characterizion of Han Solo. That scene defined who and what Han Solo was - a scoundrel, perhaps with a good heart, but hard enough to kill up front, when the situation demanded it. It established the foundation of who he was. Changing that means that the foundation his entire character was based on becomes flawed.

[Sir Vougalot]

I agree that making the Exile a female cheapens the story for many reasons. I think the reason they did so was because, out of all the customizable game characters, none of them had been canonized as a woman up till then. What they should do is retcon the Exile to have been a man and Jaden Korr to have been a woman, because the female voice actress for Jaden (the great Jennifer Hale, the same woman who did Bastila) is incomparably better than her male counterpart. I reluctantly accept the Exile as a female, but I can never accept the male Jaden. Hence why my Jaden is always either a human or Twi'lek female.

[PoiuyWired]

Personally I hate that they made the exile female in canon, both because the male exile story was far more interesting - Brianna is much better than Mical, and unlike Sion, Atris makes a lot of sense as a lost love interest - and also because I don't think we need to make precisely the most timid and lives-in-denial protagonist of ANY Star Wars game a woman.

Quote for Emphasis.

 

The problem with changing the Solo/Greedo fight is that it undermines the characterizion of Han Solo. That scene defined who and what Han Solo was - a scoundrel, perhaps with a good heart, but hard enough to kill up front, when the situation demanded it. It established the foundation of who he was. Changing that means that the foundation his entire character was based on becomes flawed.

 

Thanks.

[KyleOfHarpenden]

they shouldn't be evil, what i mean is the true sith imo aren't initially evil there just people who use the 'dark side' of the force to help them overcome there challenges similar to how the jedi use the 'light side'. so yeah they shouldn't be evil. Not really use about there look i don't really think it matters whatever lucas puts them as u cant disprove there look so doesn't make any difference as long as there not like fairy then i don't really care.

[PoiuyWired]

Hmmm... Tinkerbell True Sith...

 

Well, from what I remember, the dark jedis of the 2nd schism took command of the True Sith people, became their leader and god, and interbreed(ack... them girls are ugly) with them. So in a way most True Sith believe is a version of the Sith Code. Now, that is not necessarily a bad thing either. The problem is that most True Sith are killed off, the republic pulls a genocide on Korriban, or something like that. The rest are probably scattered in small pockets around the galaxy, probably where few people come into contact. Now there is that one planet where you may find the True Sith civilization...

[Darca Lar]

they shouldn't be evil, what i mean is the true sith imo aren't initially evil there just people who use the 'dark side' of the force to help them overcome there challenges similar to how the jedi use the 'light side'. so yeah they shouldn't be evil. Not really use about there look i don't really think it matters whatever lucas puts them as u cant disprove there look so doesn't make any difference as long as there not like fairy then i don't really care.

 

Okay dude, first of all...the Sith don't think that they're evil. They think that they're right in their actions, and that in using the powers of the 'Dark Side', it makes them strong to do anything, even change destinies.

 

Kenobi: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!

Anakin: From my point of view the Jedi are Evil!

 

Second of all, if the Sith weren't the "Evil" one's then who is? The Jedi? Your enemy from your view is the wrong one, so one way or another someone has to be "Evil".

[Nancy Allen``]

A lot of it falls into what is commonly accepted as evil. Just about anyone would be against whacking kids, or genocide. These are both Sith traits. I think somewhere the 'survival of the fittest' philosophy, despite it being creditble (Hobbes?) is demonised as being worse than evil, as it condemns the innocent as well as the guilty, or some such.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, there is also something called "motive" It is quite reasonable to whack the hack out of a kid, if he deliberately cause serious harm to you, like breaking your leg by pushing a car off a snow covered slope(yes it happened to my friend). As for genoside... I can understand it in some cases, like what the Bothans did towards the defeated YV. But motive is the main thing.

 

Well, the Jedi and what not(republic even) performed what is basically a genocide to the Sith population after its defeat. Obviously the jedi does not work hard to stop this... and is such action Evil?

 

Sure, Sith is more likely to perform screw up acts, since there is no rules to govern them. But the extent of individual Sith varies alot more than individual jedis usually.

 

Not trying to say sith are the good guys, but yeah there are examples of groups following the Sith code yet acting reasonabley nice.

[Sir Vougalot]

Sometimes the Jedi were as ruthless as the Sith. That's why they had so many people that hated them.

[Nancy Allen``]

In KOTOR isn't a large part of the reason people don't like Jedi because they didn't do squat about the Mandalorians?

[Darca Lar]

I think it's more in part because of the Jedi Civil War where the Jedi turned on their master's. So the people of the galaxy didn't know how to differ between the two anymore.

[Jediphile]

In KOTOR isn't a large part of the reason people don't like Jedi because they didn't do squat about the Mandalorians?

 

I think it's more in part because of the Jedi Civil War where the Jedi turned on their master's. So the people of the galaxy didn't know how to differ between the two anymore.

 

Actually, I think it's both. The republic fleet probably has lingering anger against the masters, as Carth does, for doing squat about the Mandalorians.

 

The general population would see little difference between jedi and sith, however, because Revan's "sith" were the very jedi heroes who saved them all from the Mandalorians. So basically you have "hero jedi turned evil" and "couldn't give a hoot if the republic lives or dies jedi". That being the case, I can't blame the general population for not bothering to distinguish much between the two, since what difference would it make?

[RobQel-Droma]

I'll tell you. They should be invisible ghosts that you cannot see in the game because they aren't there.

 

I feel like I harp on this, but why does everyone go "KOTOR III!!!! It must mean True Sith!" just because Kreia mentions True Sith and/or Sith Empire only TWICE (or maybe three) times just at the end of TSL?

 

I guess the question is: Do you want a TSL-like KOTOR III, or a KOTOR-like KOTOR III. Which was the better game, in fact?

 

And, this is not to mention that True Sith/Original Sith takes place back in the Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos Tales of the Jedi era, not the KOTOR era. It's a completely different period of Star Wars history, one that I feel is very removed from KOTOR. So do you want a pre-Tales of the Jedi KOTOR III or a KOTOR III? Probably that is the better question.

 

Jediphile, you've said in other threads that we should not have planets such as Ossus in KOTOR III because we would be infringing on other time periods in SW, periods that already have their own story and are not connected to KOTOR - and I agree. But how is this any different? Would not this be a prequel game also? Please, we're talking about going to ancient True Sith planets with wierd alien populations and philosophies that are almost non-canon with the original SW philosophy (I'm talking about all this grey stuff and everything).

[Jediphile]

I'll tell you. They should be invisible ghosts that you cannot see in the game because they aren't there.

 

I feel like I harp on this, but why does everyone go "KOTOR III!!!! It must mean True Sith!" just because Kreia mentions True Sith and/or Sith Empire only TWICE (or maybe three) times just at the end of TSL?

 

I guess the question is: Do you want a TSL-like KOTOR III, or a KOTOR-like KOTOR III. Which was the better game, in fact?

 

And, this is not to mention that True Sith/Original Sith takes place back in the Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos Tales of the Jedi era, not the KOTOR era. It's a completely different period of Star Wars history, one that I feel is very removed from KOTOR. So do you want a pre-Tales of the Jedi KOTOR III or a KOTOR III? Probably that is the better question.

 

Jediphile, you've said in other threads that we should not have planets such as Ossus in KOTOR III because we would be infringing on other time periods in SW, periods that already have their own story and are not connected to KOTOR - and I agree. But how is this any different? Would not this be a prequel game also? Please, we're talking about going to ancient True Sith planets with wierd alien populations and philosophies that are almost non-canon with the original SW philosophy (I'm talking about all this grey stuff and everything).

 

The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up. Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential. I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic. Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

 

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.

 

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

 

3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.

 

Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.

 

And just why would they bother to have Kreia mention the true Sith at the end, if they are not going to be important in the next game? That makes no sense at all. Sure, she could have just mentioned as "an ancient evil that we must be wary of." That would have worked too without demanding a sequel that deals with it. But it's not what she says. No what she says is this:

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

and

 

Kreia (talking about Revan): "If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things."

 

So we have three things established from the above...

 

1. There is a great war coming.

2. Malachor, Korriban and the "true Sith" are tied to the old Sith Empire.

3. The exile will likely go and fight side by side with Revan "at the end of all things"

[axel]

kk i got one......the true sith should be like nihilus.... freak voice..... scary looking and angry lol

[Darca Lar]

The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up. Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential. I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic. Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

 

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.

 

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

 

3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.

 

Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.

 

And just why would they bother to have Kreia mention the true Sith at the end, if they are not going to be important in the next game? That makes no sense at all. Sure, she could have just mentioned as "an ancient evil that we must be wary of." That would have worked too without demanding a sequel that deals with it. But it's not what she says. No what she says is this:

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

and

 

Kreia (talking about Revan): "If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things."

 

So we have three things established from the above...

 

1. There is a great war coming.

2. Malachor, Korriban and the "true Sith" are tied to the old Sith Empire.

3. The exile will likely go and fight side by side with Revan "at the end of all things"

 

Okay...that makes sense. But should the game contain "The End of All Things"? Or should they start over with another character who leaves known space at the end of the game and just leave the Great War up to the player's imagination?

I personally like the KOTOR series because of its gameplay and storyline progression, and that's all I need to expect from the third installment should it be installed...

[SilentScope001]

Okay...that makes sense. But should the game contain "The End of All Things"? Or should they start over with another character who leaves known space at the end of the game and just leave the Great War up to the player's imagination?

 

The latter one sounds...interesting. But we already have that, with The Exile (at least an LS Exile, not sure about DS Exile) leaving known space at the end of the game, leaving the Great War up to the player's imagination. The aftermath of that Great War, and seeing Revan and Exile fail to destroy the True Sith should be played, with the Player mounting the last defense against the True Sith Empire...but the actual Great War can be left to fan fic writers.

[Jediphile]

The latter one sounds...interesting. But we already have that, with The Exile (at least an LS Exile, not sure about DS Exile) leaving known space at the end of the game, leaving the Great War up to the player's imagination. The aftermath of that Great War, and seeing Revan and Exile fail to destroy the True Sith should be played, with the Player mounting the last defense against the True Sith Empire...but the actual Great War can be left to fan fic writers.

 

Er... Isn't what you described the very essence and climax of that great war?

[SilentScope001]

Er... Isn't what you described the very essence and climax of that great war?

 

There are two wars.

 

War 1: Revan and Exile vs. True Sith. (Started up in between K1 and TSL, with Exile coming in after TSL)

 

War 2: Third Character vs. True Sith. (Starting up in K3)

 

The first war will not be described, but the results is obivous: either stalemate or loss. The second war is the invasion of Known galaxy and what will be covered by K3. In this War, the Third Character would defeat the True Sith.