What should the True Sith BE Like?

[RobQel-Droma]

The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up.

 

But that isn't the problem that I have with them, its because the planets themselves belong to a different time period. I know that there is hardly any storyline to get entagled with on them taking place throughout KOTOR, but they are planets, as I said, from a pre-Republic to ancient Republic era.

 

Not, mind you, a KOTOR era.

 

Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential.

 

Blank and unused? Yes. Plot potential? Maybe, if KOTOR is going to be a Tales of the Jedi-like game. Loose ends? No. There is nothing to tie up in KOTOR, because they aren't even connected to KOTOR in the first place. I'm just saying, loose ends is not the right term. Nothing happened there that needs to be resolved in the KOTOR era.

 

I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic.

 

Well, actually, that isn't a bad description of what did happen to them. I'll tell you a bit better - they died out. There is no Original Sith left, KOTOR even says it, and its validated by most of the comics or EU fill-in between the major eras of SW. They died out, fled, were killed, and just became extinct after Ragnos and Sadow were killed. Remember, they just used the Original Sith as an army or slave force. The Sith Lords were the real threat to the Republic.

 

In fact, most of the Sith and dark Jedi that became enemies to the Republic in the next Schism with Revan and Malak were completely removed from that old Empire. Ever read any of the background stuff to the first KOTOR, what is going on with the SW universe during that time? About 98-99% percent of Malak's forces are betrayers and converts from the Republic. The older stuff, like the Star Forge, and all that, is stuff they just used to get their Empire going. Their forces are all people who left the Republic.

 

Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

 

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.

 

And your point is....? She also tells you that Revan was trained by many masters during the time he was a padawan. Means nothing to the story, its just background info.

 

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

 

So you got from "Civil wars are common amount the Sith" to "Revan is fighting the True Sith in the Unknown Regions."

 

Not to be condescending, but.... Wow. How did you get from point A to point B? Goodness, Atton tells us that Sith Lords squabble between each other. Well, that obviously means that something is going on in the Unknown Regions, right?

 

3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.

 

Used to be tied to. The Empire is gone now.

 

As for the rest of your point, I'll answer that later.

 

Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.

 

Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

 

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.

 

I'll add some more later... I have to go.

[Jediphile]

But that isn't the problem that I have with them, its because the planets themselves belong to a different time period. I know that there is hardly any storyline to get entagled with on them taking place throughout KOTOR, but they are planets, as I said, from a pre-Republic to ancient Republic era.

 

Not, mind you, a KOTOR era.

 

Yes, but so what? By that reasoning we shouldn't have Tatooine, Manaan or Kashyyyk in KotOR either since they "belong" to the movies-era. Sorry, but I don't see what this is any problem whatsoever.

 

Blank and unused? Yes. Plot potential? Maybe, if KOTOR is going to be a Tales of the Jedi-like game.

 

KotOR IS Tales of the Jedi. Period! The entire era grew out of the original comics, and names like Exar Kun, Ulic, Nomi and others are heard again and again throughout the games. You cannot separate the two. Indeed, the collection of the five original Tales of the Jedi stories is named "Knights of the Old Republic." That's where that phrase comes from - that's the original source of the name, the games are not. There is no separating the games from that.

 

Loose ends? No. There is nothing to tie up in KOTOR, because they aren't even connected to KOTOR in the first place. I'm just saying, loose ends is not the right term. Nothing happened there that needs to be resolved in the KOTOR era.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have said loose end, because it implies that there is something unfinished in those stories. There is not. But they leave lots of potential unused that can be played on. Abandoning rich history filled with potential like that is one of the things Star Wars expanded universe has always been good at using to its advantage. If you want to see the alternative to that,then look at Star Trek, where the writers have constantly refused to accept anything from any other part of the universe as inspiration. I admit it might be a difficult to see at the moment, though, seeing as how Star Trek is sadly pretty dead at the moment...

 

Well, actually, that isn't a bad description of what did happen to them. I'll tell you a bit better - they died out. There is no Original Sith left, KOTOR even says it, and its validated by most of the comics or EU fill-in between the major eras of SW. They died out, fled, were killed, and just became extinct after Ragnos and Sadow were killed. Remember, they just used the Original Sith as an army or slave force. The Sith Lords were the real threat to the Republic.

 

The original sith species "died out" long before the time of Sadow and Ragnos, but it was an empire. Even if empires die, that doesn't mean that its entire population suddenly spontaneously combust as a consequence of an ended plotline. There could be hundreds of old Sith worlds out there with their descendents living on them, hoping for the day to reclaim lost glory of the past and revenge themselves on the republic... and the jedi. A people never dies out - there are always surivivors. And Kreia even confirms it.

 

Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia. It, like Malachor, brushes the edges of the empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it... for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

 

Who can Kreia possibly be talking about here if not the ancient Sith? And just to eliminate any doubt, she even says it outright in different but almost identical quote.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

In fact, most of the Sith and dark Jedi that became enemies to the Republic in the next Schism with Revan and Malak were completely removed from that old Empire. Ever read any of the background stuff to the first KOTOR, what is going on with the SW universe during that time? About 98-99% percent of Malak's forces are betrayers and converts from the Republic. The older stuff, like the Star Forge, and all that, is stuff they just used to get their Empire going. Their forces are all people who left the Republic.

 

Yes, Revan's and Malak's Sith have nothing to do with the old Sith Empire. Nor do the Sith of Kreia, Nihilus, and Sion. From the above quotes, however, it seems fairly obvious to me that the true Sith have rather a lot to do with them.

 

And your point is....? She also tells you that Revan was trained by many masters during the time he was a padawan. Means nothing to the story, its just background info.

 

No, that is actually significant because the identity of Revan's masters becomes important during the course of the game. Kreia rarely says anything without purpose. Looking at it later, it may be obvious why she mentioned something, but that makes me wonder about the reasoning behind talking about those things that did not become obvious during the course of TSL itself. This is one of them.

 

So you got from "Civil wars are common amount the Sith" to "Revan is fighting the True Sith in the Unknown Regions."

 

Not to be condescending, but.... Wow. How did you get from point A to point B? Goodness, Atton tells us that Sith Lords squabble between each other. Well, that obviously means that something is going on in the Unknown Regions, right?

 

You're right - obviously it could NEVER in thousands upon thousands of years EVER mean anything like what I'm musing about. Oh, for shame!!! Please forgive my horrible and INEXCUSABLE sin of uttering such pathetic nonsense in your presence. How shall I ever redeem myself in the eyes of the jedi council again? Oh, woe is me!!!

 

Used to be tied to. The Empire is gone now.

 

Yes... and in its place, the true Sith are waiting in the dark...

 

Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

 

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.

 

I think I'll just let that speak for itself...

[RobQel-Droma]

OK, now to get back. I think I'll just keep going with your response instead of going back.

 

Yes, but so what? By that reasoning we shouldn't have Tatooine, Manaan or Kashyyyk in KotOR either since they "belong" to the movies-era. Sorry, but I don't see what this is any problem whatsoever.

 

Well.... I see what you mean. (shouldn't include Manaan in there, though) Maybe I should say it a different way. Not considering SW eras for planets, more like SW themes. Ziost and Khar whatever belong to the kind of ancient Jedi-use-swords and True Sith are alive slash Yuuzhan Vong strange alien type of SW. Tatooine and Kashyyyk don't - in fact, being in the movies, they make it more similar to KOTOR, as they belong to the kind of story that KOTOR is in - the more "canonical" SW stories.

 

KotOR IS Tales of the Jedi. Period! The entire era grew out of the original comics, and names like Exar Kun, Ulic, Nomi and others are heard again and again throughout the games. You cannot separate the two. Indeed, the collection of the five original Tales of the Jedi stories is named "Knights of the Old Republic." That's where that phrase comes from - that's the original source of the name, the games are not. There is no separating the games from that.

 

Ahem, I beg to differ. KOTOR comes from/after the Tales of the Jedi, it is two different time periods. They aren't the same. Yes, those names are heard in the game - Ulic, Nomi, etc. - but they are not in the game. Period . I will agree, Tales of the Jedi did lead into KOTOR, but they are seperate.

 

Now, just to be fair, even if they were, the True Sith stuff comes even before that - more specifically, let me give you some dates:

 

7000 B.B.Y. - the time of the First Schizm, or the Hundred Year Darkness. This is when the first dark Jedi came to power and found the True Sith; also where they were held as gods among the Sith and built an army out of them. After this time, they were driven back into the Unknown Regions and pretty much forgot about the Republic, until....

 

5000 B.B.Y. - the Golden Age of the Sith, at the height of their power. As I said, they had all but forgotten about the Republic, until those two fateful discoverers stumbled across their Empire. This new contact with the Republic sparked this: The Great Hyperspace War. The Sith were eventually beaten, the True Sith all but destroyed, and the Sith Lords - Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos - they got into their little tombs.

 

Now, 4400 B.B.Y. - this is when Exar Kun began to use the True Sith again; except now, they were the "Massassi", living on Yavin IV, shrunk greatly from their former power. He started another war with his little minions, and eventually lost. The Massassi were killed, and eventually almost all of the True Sith or their descendants fled or died out. They lost everything, so to speak, and never again got any kind of power - that's why they never returned, and why Korriban and Yavin IV are just ruin-filled shadows of what they once were.

 

Now, fast-forward to KOTOR, which is - let me see - about 50-100 years ahead of the war with Exar Kun. In fact, it specifically tells you that the True Sith died out. I'm not talking about their long-lost relatives or anything, but all this (which is from your pre-Tales of the Jedi era) are gone.

 

Now does that put it in perspective?

 

There could be hundreds of old Sith worlds out there with their descendents living on them, hoping for the day to reclaim lost glory of the past and revenge themselves on the republic... and the jedi. A people never dies out - there are always surivivors. And Kreia even confirms it.

 

Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia. It, like Malachor, brushes the edges of the empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it... for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

 

Who can Kreia possibly be talking about here if not the ancient Sith? And just to eliminate any doubt, she even says it outright in different but almost identical quote.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Now this is where it gets confusing, because none of us no what Kreia had in mind. What does True Sith mean? The fact is, a lot of people immediately jump to the assumption that she is talking about wierd Vong-like Sith species, but she never actually says or implies that she is.

 

Yeah, I know at one point she does say ancient Sith empire, but Korriban and Malachor are part of the ancient Sith empire as well - but it is ancient, and there are no Ancient Sith left. The people who populate them are the dark Jedi who came after them. There's no reason why she can't be talking about the powerful dark Jedi/Sith Lords who have bided their time and are living in the Ancient Sith Empire, without them actually being the Ancient Sith species. Couldn't you agree with that?

 

BTW, I'd like to know who you think she is talking about to clarify.

 

No, that is actually significant because the identity of Revan's masters becomes important during the course of the game. Kreia rarely says anything without purpose. Looking at it later, it may be obvious why she mentioned something, but that makes me wonder about the reasoning behind talking about those things that did not become obvious during the course of TSL itself.

 

Er... where did it become important later?

 

You're right - obviously it could NEVER in thousands upon thousands of years EVER mean anything like what I'm musing about. Oh, for shame!!! Please forgive my horrible and INEXCUSABLE sin of uttering such pathetic nonsense in your presence. How shall I ever redeem myself in the eyes of the jedi council again? Oh, woe is me!!!

 

Wow.

 

OK, hang on, buddy, just calm down a bit. When I meant I didn't mean to be condescending, I meant it. No need to overreact like that, seriously.

 

Now, if it makes you feel better, perhaps I should rephrase that. How did you get from point A on that to point B? If it was just a "musing" based on having the True Sith and Revan actually be there, that's fine. But it was almost like you made that one of your main points, and that's what got me confused. All I could understand was "Kreia tells us that Sith fight amongst themselves, so that could be what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the Sith haven't attacked." Kinda confusing, isn't it?

 

Please calm down and don't take what I said as slamming you or being sarcastic - like you were a bit. I mean it, I don't intend to start a flaming match, and I meant no offense. I just didn't know why you would get so worked up.

 

But in all that, you still avoided my question, and I don't know what your previous line of reasoning was anymore now than I did.

 

Yes... and in its place, the true Sith are waiting in the dark...

 

Maybe... Yeah, Kreia said that, I know. It kinda brings something to mind though:

 

And if Kreia said she was your mother you would believe her

 

No, I'm not suggesting that she was lying or that it means nothing. I'm just saying I don't know what she meant or if she's still scheming; and to be honest, neither do you.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma

Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

 

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.

 

 

I think I'll just let that speak for itself...

 

OK.

 

Would you mind explaining what you are trying to convey by your response? What, was my response stupid or something? Maybe I should start saying what you were sarcastically lamenting about earlier... but no. Let's keep this mature.

 

So.... What exactly is it that you want to say? Again, you really didn't give a response to what I said - again.

[Darca Lar]

Okay I decided to just skim those last few and just would suggest that before anybody goes on stating what they think is true, or assume that it could be...READ THE STORIES! If you've read them, then you wouldn't assume that the Yuuzhong Vong AREN'T at all True Sith but just another alien species. PLEASE get the FACTS before you make a judgment!

[Jediphile]

Well.... I see what you mean. (shouldn't include Manaan in there, though) Maybe I should say it a different way. Not considering SW eras for planets, more like SW themes. Ziost and Khar whatever belong to the kind of ancient Jedi-use-swords and True Sith are alive slash Yuuzhan Vong strange alien type of SW. Tatooine and Kashyyyk don't - in fact, being in the movies, they make it more similar to KOTOR, as they belong to the kind of story that KOTOR is in - the more "canonical" SW stories.

 

Canon is a pretty black-and-white thing in Star Wars. Sure, lots of people dismiss EU stuff, but Lucasarts doesn't. That's why you can see Sadow's invasion of the republic during the Great Hyperspace War depicted in Palpatine's office in "Revenge of the Sith" - it's all accepted history.

 

 

Ahem, I beg to differ. KOTOR comes from/after the Tales of the Jedi, it is two different time periods. They aren't the same. Yes, those names are heard in the game - Ulic, Nomi, etc. - but they are not in the game. Period . I will agree, Tales of the Jedi did lead into KOTOR, but they are seperate.

 

Only due to technical reasons. Originally Bastila was meant to be Vima Sunrider, but Lucasarts elected not to allow that due to a legal controversy over the Sunrider name. Nomi Sunrider's full name is mentioned only due to "mistake" according to Lucasarts.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sunrider_naming_controversy

 

And no, you can't separate them, since the Tales of the Jedi stories impact the KotOR games so heavily - it is precisely because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were lured to the dark side that the masters on the jedi council refused to take action against the Mandalorians. So without that in recent history, it is highly doubtful that Revan would have been in a position to split the order on the issue, which is the very foundation of the all the trouble in the games so far.

 

Now, just to be fair, even if they were, the True Sith stuff comes even before that - more specifically, let me give you some dates:

 

7000 B.B.Y. - the time of the First Schizm, or the Hundred Year Darkness. This is when the first dark Jedi came to power and found the True Sith; also where they were held as gods among the Sith and built an army out of them. After this time, they were driven back into the Unknown Regions and pretty much forgot about the Republic, until....

 

Since we're apparently splitting hairs, it's actually 6900 BBY, since that's when the dark jedi lost the Battle of Corbos

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Year_Darkness

 

5000 B.B.Y. - the Golden Age of the Sith, at the height of their power. As I said, they had all but forgotten about the Republic, until those two fateful discoverers stumbled across their Empire. This new contact with the Republic sparked this: The Great Hyperspace War. The Sith were eventually beaten, the True Sith all but destroyed, and the Sith Lords - Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos - they got into their little tombs.

 

Actually, that is not quite correct. If you reexamine the "Golden Age of the Sith" comic books, you'll see, that Sadow is actually promoting an attack on the Republic before the Gav and Jori Daragon even arrive on Korriban. That is the source of the dispute between Sadow and Kressh, and it's established even as the Starbreaker 12 enters orbit above Korriban.

 

Sadow: "The Sith Empire is stagnant! For centuries we have done nothing but wallow in our riches and relive our ancient conquest of these worlds. This is no longer enough. Our ancestors - my ancestors - were great jedi, banished for their beliefs. I will not let that flame be extinguished by our complacency!"

 

Quite clearly, they had not forgotten. And note, this is about 1900 years after the dark jedi were exiled and founded a great empire of their own. KotOR is only a little over a thousand years after the Republic destroyed the Sith Empire (or rather, before it destroyed itself, though I doubt the descendants see it that way...)

 

Now, 4400 B.B.Y. - this is when Exar Kun began to use the True Sith again; except now, they were the "Massassi", living on Yavin IV, shrunk greatly from their former power. He started another war with his little minions, and eventually lost. The Massassi were killed, and eventually almost all of the True Sith or their descendants fled or died out. They lost everything, so to speak, and never again got any kind of power - that's why they never returned, and why Korriban and Yavin IV are just ruin-filled shadows of what they once were.

 

Oh dear...

 

1. While I agree the true Sith are the descendents of the Sith Empire, I doubt we should use the term in that context, since even though Kreia suggests it, there is enough doubt about just who the true Sith are to warrant caution with the term.

 

2. While your description of events above is correct on the broad scale, your timetable is way, way off. Exar Kun did not embrace the Sith ways until 4000 BBY.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/4%2C000_BBY

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War

 

The year 4400 is when Freedon Nadd fell to the dark side and subsequently made himself king of Onderon.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/4%2C400_BBY

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Freedon_Nadd

 

Now, fast-forward to KOTOR, which is - let me see - about 50-100 years ahead of the war with Exar Kun. In fact, it specifically tells you that the True Sith died out. I'm not talking about their long-lost relatives or anything, but all this (which is from your pre-Tales of the Jedi era) are gone.

 

Actually, KotOR is set in 3956 BBY, exactly 44 years after the beginning of the Great Sith War (4000 BBY), while TSL is set in 3951 BBY, exactly 49 years after the Great Sith War and five years after KotOR.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

 

Now this is where it gets confusing, because none of us no what Kreia had in mind. What does True Sith mean? The fact is, a lot of people immediately jump to the assumption that she is talking about wierd Vong-like Sith species, but she never actually says or implies that she is.

 

No. She does mention the Sith Empire in relation to the true Sith, though.

 

Yeah, I know at one point she does say ancient Sith empire, but Korriban and Malachor are part of the ancient Sith empire as well - but it is ancient, and there are no Ancient Sith left.[/Quote]

 

We don't know that either. The Sith species is gone, yes, but they were long gone even in the time of Sadow and Kressh.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species

 

The people who populate them are the dark Jedi who came after them. There's no reason why she can't be talking about the powerful dark Jedi/Sith Lords who have bided their time and are living in the Ancient Sith Empire, without them actually being the Ancient Sith species. Couldn't you agree with that?

 

There is no ancient sith species and hasn't been one since days well before the Great Hyperspace War, unless you count the Massassi, who really are the result of Sith alchemy.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massassi

 

All the members of the Sith Empire we see in the Great Hyperspace War are halfbreeds between the original Sith species and the human dark jedi who enslaved them. Some look more like the sith species, like Kressh, and some look more human, like Sadow, but they are all halfbreeds of some sort.

 

Er... where did it become important later?

 

It points to Kreia's past, which does become fairly important during the course of TSL IMHO. It also points to her knowledge of what became of Revan, which leads us to the revelation of the true Sith at the end of the game. I tend to think that is also rather significant.

 

So.... What exactly is it that you want to say? Again, you really didn't give a response to what I said - again.

 

Maybe not, but then nor do I have to. And the way you phrase it, I do feel as if I'm left only with the options of either answering your questions and thereby confirming that I'm answerable to you or else to refuse answering on the basis that I don't answer to anyone. In those cases I always choose the latter option.

[RobQel-Droma]

Since we're apparently splitting hairs, it's actually 6900 BBY, since that's when the dark jedi lost the Battle of Corbos

 

I was trying to make a distinction, but I guess that's splitting hairs. Oh well - but don't split hairs yourself. It's not 6900 BBY, though, that is the date of a lost battle. The Schism itself started in 7000 BBY, so that is a correct date. Not that it matters, though, because its still about 2000 years from the next date.

 

Actually, that is not quite correct. If you reexamine the "Golden Age of the Sith" comic books, you'll see, that Sadow is actually promoting an attack on the Republic before the Gav and Jori Daragon even arrive on Korriban. That is the source of the dispute between Sadow and Kressh, and it's established even as the Starbreaker 12 enters orbit above Korriban.

 

Sadow: "The Sith Empire is stagnant! For centuries we have done nothing but wallow in our riches and relive our ancient conquest of these worlds. This is no longer enough. Our ancestors - my ancestors - were great jedi, banished for their beliefs. I will not let that flame be extinguished by our complacency!"

 

Quite clearly, they had not forgotten. And note, this is about 1900 years after the dark jedi were exiled and founded a great empire of their own. KotOR is only a little over a thousand years after the Republic destroyed the Sith Empire (or rather, before it destroyed itself, though I doubt the descendants see it that way...)

 

Whatever, but they had at least forgotten where the Republic was. It took the Daragon's to stumble into the Empire to get the war started. And yes, KOTOR is about a 1000 years after that Sith Empire was already gone. A long stretch.

 

2. While your description of events above is correct on the broad scale, your timetable is way, way off. Exar Kun did not embrace the Sith ways until 4000 BBY.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/4%2C000_BBY

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War

 

The year 4400 is when Freedon Nadd fell to the dark side and subsequently made himself king of Onderon.

 

Well, no, I'm not wrong actually. My timetable is still pretty accurate (I've only messed up one date) - and I don't even know if I was wrong with that. You are, after all, trusting Wookieepedia, not my source. But again, it doesn't really matter. So don't split hairs! j/k

 

We don't know that either. The Sith species is gone, yes, but they were long gone even in the time of Sadow and Kressh.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species

 

Er...exactly. So how have they suddenly come back in TSL?

 

There is no ancient sith species and hasn't been one since days well before the Great Hyperspace War, unless you count the Massassi, who really are the result of Sith alchemy.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massassi

 

All the members of the Sith Empire we see in the Great Hyperspace War are halfbreeds between the original Sith species and the human dark jedi who enslaved them. Some look more like the sith species, like Kressh, and some look more human, like Sadow, but they are all halfbreeds of some sort.

 

Why does it sound like you are arguing on my side? That's what I've been saying this whole time, and that was why I said what I did.

 

Actually, there is a ancient Sith species - or perhaps, there "was." And trust me, I agree full well with you. All that was left even in Exar Kun's time was half-breeds or alchemically enhanced dark Jedi. That's what I was saying.

 

And now, I'm confused. Are you now saying that there is no more such thing as ancient Sith? Because, if so, then why are you trying to say there is True Sith out there in the Unknown Regions, because Kreia talks about them and says "ancient Sith Empire." (Notice the "Ancient Sith")

 

It points to Kreia's past, which does become fairly important during the course of TSL IMHO. It also points to her knowledge of what became of Revan, which leads us to the revelation of the true Sith at the end of the game. I tend to think that is also rather significant.

 

Kreia's past.... well, she doesn't say she taught Revan in that conversation as I remember, so it doesn't point to her past. And it doesn't have anything to do with Revan's present condition, just what happened in his past. In fact, I'm not sure how it even ties in with "True Sith."

 

Maybe not, but then nor do I have to. And the way you phrase it, I do feel as if I'm left only with the options of either answering your questions and thereby confirming that I'm answerable to you or else to refuse answering on the basis that I don't answer to anyone. In those cases I always choose the latter option.

 

*sigh* No, you don't, Jediphile. OK, you don't answer to anyone, you can just tell everyone else to shove it if you don't feel you have to respond to them. I wouldn't advise taking that stance, but its yours, not mine, so I can't change it.

 

Or, you could choose option 3 in that list you gave me; respond, yet come up with an explanation why that still doesn't affect your position. If you do come up with an intelligent answer, that's fine. I may not believe what you say, but at least you answered well.

 

Just not answering really makes it seem like you don't have an answer. I think you might, but at the same time, I don't know whether you can answer it or not. If you don't - and I'm just telling you - people will probably think you can't answer that. Some people do just ignore things because they can't counter that.

 

But, if you don't have to answer to anyone, that's fine. I'll let other people make a judgement on that. We won't get far though, either way. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I'm confused as to why you seem to want to be occasionally. Or maybe you aren't. It doesn't matter.

 

Oh, and by the way, I still don't understand this:

 

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

 

Or is this you're "I don't have to answer to anyone" attitude? If you consider this of no importance anymore, that's fine, because I'll drop it too, but I would like to know how, in your point number 2, we got from Kreia making a general statement about the nature of Sith Lords (I thought it was common knowledge, actually ) to her making a reference about Revan doing something in the Unknown Regions. If he's even there doing something.

[Jae Onasi]

From the MST3K theme song: "It's just a show, you should really just relax."

 

There are more complaints coming from this thread than any others on SWK right now. Babysitting threads for possibly flaming is not my idea of a good time. Either everyone calms down now, or the thread will get closed and those responsible for flaming will get warnings. Carry on, minus the sarcasm, please.

[Gargoyle King]

If the "TRUE SITH" appeared in Kotor 3 (i doubt it, but things keep surprising me these days!) i doubt they would be human, or be any type of fallen jedi or so; if they are to appear in Kotor 3 with Revan searching for them, i feel that the developers - whether Bioware, Obsidian or a different company - will certainly have a challenge upon them to get them right or convincing atleast. Does anyone have any opinions on this?

[Jediphile]

I was trying to make a distinction, but I guess that's splitting hairs. Oh well - but don't split hairs yourself. It's not 6900 BBY, though, that is the date of a lost battle. The Schism itself started in 7000 BBY, so that is a correct date. Not that it matters, though, because its still about 2000 years from the next date.

 

Well, we were talking about the Hundred Years war in relation to the formation of the Sith Empire, which obviously didn't occur until after the dark jedi were exiled. Hence I found 6900 BBY to be the more appropriate date. YMMV.

 

Whatever, but they had at least forgotten where the Republic was. It took the Daragon's to stumble into the Empire to get the war started.

 

Yes, but we cannot assume it was because the Sith did not know where the Republic was. Sadow used the arrival of the Starbreaker 12, a Republic ship, to infer that a Republic sneak attack was underway and that the Daragons were advance scouts and spies - that's why he had them thrown in jail. Of course, he didn't believe that himself, but he did exploit their arrival toward that end, which only underscores that he was already hellbent on attacking the Republic IMHO.

 

Well, no, I'm not wrong actually. My timetable is still pretty accurate (I've only messed up one date) - and I don't even know if I was wrong with that. You are, after all, trusting Wookieepedia, not my source. But again, it doesn't really matter. So don't split hairs! j/k

 

Actually, I don't need to rely on Wookieepedia, since I have all the collection of the Tales of the Jedi comic books less than five feet from me as I type. That's why I can quote Naga Sadow's exact words, which do not appear on Wookieepedia to my knowledge. Wookieepedia is, however, the only source that I can directly link to. Besides, I feel more secure referencing to that than just asking people to trust me when I quote the original sources. And Wookieepedia does tend to be fairly accurate IMHO. The people behind the site are doing a great job, so I see little or no reason to dismiss their efforts on the whole.

 

Er...exactly. So how have they suddenly come back in TSL?

 

They didn't. They've been extinct for well over a thousand years. The Sith species does not equal the Sith Empire, however. A lot of people tend to get that mixed up. The sith species ruled worlds such as Korriban, but they did never had a starspanning empire of their own. That didn't happen until the dark jedi arrived, enslaved them, and then established the Sith Empire of Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh and others. By their time, around 5000 BBY, the original sith species was already gone, but clearly it was still the golden age of the sith empire, so obviously "sith species" equals neither "ancient sith" nor "Sith Empire". Those terms belong solely to the halfbreed descendants of the dark jedi and the original sith species, such as the aforementioned Ragnos, Kressh and Sadow. The question we don't quite know the answer to is who the "true Sith" are.

 

Actually, there is a ancient Sith species - or perhaps, there "was." And trust me, I agree full well with you. All that was left even in Exar Kun's time was half-breeds or alchemically enhanced dark Jedi. That's what I was saying.

 

If there were half-breeds in Exar Kun's time, then how can we say there are no descendants of the Sith Empire? That's less than 50 years before KotOR. I must confess that I haven't seen or heard of any of them in Kun's time though - I just think they're not all gone.

 

And now, I'm confused. Are you now saying that there is no more such thing as ancient Sith? Because, if so, then why are you trying to say there is True Sith out there in the Unknown Regions, because Kreia talks about them and says "ancient Sith Empire." (Notice the "Ancient Sith")

 

But "ancient Sith" does not necessarily mean "original sith species". Indeed, since Kreia seems to speak of the "ancient sith" in relation to the Sith Empire, it seems more likely to me that these "ancient sith" are people such and Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh, who were not members of the "original sith species", since that species were already extinct by their time, leaving only halfbreeds such as Ragnos, Kressh and Sadow.

 

And if we examine a few comments, it does seem that the "true Sith" are tied to the "ancient Sith", who seem to have been the masters of the Sith Empire, and not the original sith speicies.

 

Sion (talking about the Trayus Academy on Malachor V): "It has been here for thousands of years. It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands."

 

Sion mentions the ancient sith and an ancient empire. He does say it's the sith empire, but since we're talking about the ancient sith and they only ever had one empire, it seems rather obvious to me that it must the empire of Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh.

 

Kreia: "... because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Now, added with what Sion says above, it is quite obvious to me that we're talking about the Sith Empire, that the "ancient sith" are the people of Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh (not the sith species, who never had an starspanning empire), and that the "true Sith" are their descendants - the remnant of what was left when the Sith Empire fell.

 

Kreia's past.... well, she doesn't say she taught Revan in that conversation as I remember, so it doesn't point to her past. And it doesn't have anything to do with Revan's present condition, just what happened in his past. In fact, I'm not sure how it even ties in with "True Sith."

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

Kreia does not admit this casually - you actually have to build influence with her to get her to admit it.

 

Kreia: "The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it..."

 

So yes, she does tell us what has become of Revan and where he is now.

 

Or, you could choose option 3 in that list you gave me; respond, yet come up with an explanation why that still doesn't affect your position. If you do come up with an intelligent answer, that's fine. I may not believe what you say, but at least you answered well.[/Quote]

 

But if you're going to dismiss what my argument regardless, that does not seem to leave me with much incentive to answer in the first place...

 

Just not answering really makes it seem like you don't have an answer. I think you might, but at the same time, I don't know whether you can answer it or not. If you don't - and I'm just telling you - people will probably think you can't answer that. Some people do just ignore things because they can't counter that.

 

Some do, but it's almost always a fallacy to infer something from a lack of a response because one can never know why the other person chose not to respond. Maybe he didn't have a response, as you suggest, but it could also be that he simply didn't want to give one. And in either case, to speculate on the reasons, particularly for the purpose of provoking a response - and I emphasize that I'm not saying that's the case here - is trolling at best and a personal attack at worst.

 

But, if you don't have to answer to anyone, that's fine. I'll let other people make a judgement on that.

 

Fair enough.

 

Or is this you're "I don't have to answer to anyone" attitude? If you consider this of no importance anymore, that's fine, because I'll drop it too, but I would like to know how, in your point number 2, we got from Kreia making a general statement about the nature of Sith Lords (I thought it was common knowledge, actually ) to her making a reference about Revan doing something in the Unknown Regions. If he's even there doing something.

 

I do think I stated my reasons rather clearly in what you quoted the first time around, but let's reexamine...

 

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

 

Did I say that Kreia's reference could point to a connection with the true Sith? Yes, of course.

 

Did I say that was necessarily the case? No, I didn't. I just outlined it as a possibility. That's what "could be a reference" means. I actually did take great care to describe this as a possibility. I certainly did not say it was definitely the case beyond any doubt.

 

Does it make sense that the true Sith have not yet attacked if they are engaged in a civil war? I think so.

 

Is it possible that Revan left to stage such a civil war? I think that is possible too, especially given that Kreia describes Revan as "someone who was willing to wage war to save others" (and those are her exact words).

 

Does this mean that the true Sith are definitely involved in a civil war staged by Revan? No. We don't know what they are doing. But it would at least explain why they have not attacked while the Republic is definitely at its weakest.

[Gargoyle King]

When talking about the expanded Star Wars universe, there is no real definition on the appearance of a Sith (although weren't the original sith supposed to be an alien race far away from the outer-rim worlds - the Sith of future generations just being a following of a cult?). Who really knows what the True Sith look like - it's simply a work of fiction and a lot of people are wrecking their brains over a question that may never get answered. In relation to Kotor III there is one simple answer, let the developers decide the appearance of "True Sith" - whether Kotor III will ever get developed at all being perhaps the better question to query over. At the end of the day, diffreent people will have different opinions on the "True Sith" - so it falls down to personal opinion on this matter; there will always be debates over this as long as Star Wars thrives. I'm afraid therefore that this thread may become a never-ending story....

[adamqd]

If there were half-breeds in Exar Kun's time, then how can we say there are no descendants of the Sith Empire? That's less than 50 years before KotOR. I must confess that I haven't seen or heard of any of them in Kun's time though - I just think they're not all gone

.

 

Your assumption's are right Jediphile, if you check out the "shadows and Light" comic book, A bar patron mentions a half breed Massassi as a contact, this comic is set a mere 37 years before KOTOR.

 

When talking about the expanded Star Wars universe, there is no real definition on the appearance of a Sith (although weren't the original sith supposed to be an alien race far away from the outer-rim worlds.

 

LINK: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species

[Jediphile]

Your assumption's are right Jediphile, if you check out the "shadows and Light" comic book, A bar patron mentions a half breed Massassi as a contact, this comic is set a mere 37 years before KOTOR.

 

Oh yes, I see. Silly me. I even have that story. Thanks for the reference. I must confess, though, that given their alchemical origin, I don't consider the Massassi the same species as the halfbreeds of the Sith Empire. Then again, if a half breed Massassi even exits, then I suppose that makes the existence of the far more common "dark jedi human"/"original sith species"-halfbreeds far more likely.

 

Either way, thanks for pointing that out.

 

And yes, "Shadow and Light" is definitely KotOR, since that's the story of Duron Qel-Droma, Shaela Nuur, and Guun Han Saresh, who sprang from KotOR ("Shadow and Light" is merely the illustrated version of events we already learned in KotOR) and not the "Tales of the Jedi" comic books.

[Gargoyle King]

LINK: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species

 

Didn't realise this, thanks for the link!

 

halfbreeds far more likely.

 

Half-breeds; this would be like Marka Ragnos, am i correct? (sorry for sounding like a noob people, i don't really read the Star Wars comics but may do soon - seems like an intereseting experience!)

[Jediphile]

Half-breeds; this would be like Marka Ragnos, am i correct?

 

You are indeed. The original sith species, which adamqd linked to above were enslaved by and then interbred with the dark jedi cast out by the jedi order after the Hundred Year Darkness around 6900 BBY.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Years_Darkness

 

They then founded the Sith Empire and by 5000 BBY, the time of the Great Hyperspace War, the original Sith species was pretty much extinct - only halfbreeds were left. Those include both Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh, and Naga Sadow. Some are more like the original Sith speicies, like Kressh, while others have more human features, like Sadow, but they are all halfbreeds.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Hyperspace_War

[Insane-Adept]

Wow, Jediphile. You're knowledge of all this, in general Galactic History is really up there. How do you do it? Look the knowledge of all this up on Wookiee for days and nights?

[Darca Lar]

At least he knows what he's talking about...some people just assume things.

[Sir Vougalot]

Wow, Jediphile. You're knowledge of all this, in general Galactic History is really up there. How do you do it? Look the knowledge of all this up on Wookiee for days and nights?

I know just as much. *gloats*

[Jediphile]

Wow, Jediphile. You're knowledge of all this, in general Galactic History is really up there. How do you do it? Look the knowledge of all this up on Wookiee for days and nights?

 

Hardly. But I have had the original Tales of the Jedi comic books for more than a decade now, and a good deal of it sticks in memory. Once you have that, it's fairly easy looking up stuff both in the comic books and on Wookieepedia. I don't really see myself as a Star Wars loremaster by any means, but I do like to point out the facts where I'm able. The matter of the original sith species is a particular hobbyhorse, since misconceptions about those seem to surface fairly often. Not that I blame anyone for it, mind you. That it keeps resurfacing just underscores that it is confusing.

[adamqd]

I have had the original Tales of the Jedi comic books for more than a decade now.

 

 

I got mine bout 7 years ago, can't get enough of the old Republic!

[Jediphile]

I got mine bout 7 years ago, can't get enough of the old Republic!

 

I didn't actually think they were that special back then, but I guess I was wrong given what have sparked since. And at least I can claim to be the proud owner of the entire collection of the five issues in near mint condition. Could be worth money some day (yeah, right...)

[adamqd]

I didn't actually think they were that special back then, but I guess I was wrong given what have sparked since. And at least I can claim to be the proud owner of the entire collection of the five issues in near mint condition. Could be worth money some day (yeah, right...)

 

I got Tales of the Jedi and the Sith war in Graphic Noval originally, but re-brought them as comics after I had collected The Freedan Nadd uprising, Dark lords of the Sith, Golden age/Fall of the sith empire etc. Jedi V's Sith kinda suck's but apart from that Pre-Ruusan EU is the best era IMHO

 

Oh yea, Redemption is one of my favourite stories too.

[Jediphile]

I got Tales of the Jedi and the Sith war in Graphic Noval originally, but re-brought them as comics after I had collected The Freedan Nadd uprising, Dark lords of the Sith, Golden age/Fall of the sith empire etc. Jedi V's Sith kinda suck's but apart from that Pre-Ruusan EU is the best era IMHO

 

Oh yea, Redemption is one of my favourite stories too.

 

Not surprising really... Redemption is a story a lost soul trying to atone for its sins. It's a story with a very human aspect, and with a bittersweet ending as well. The rest are strongly in danger of being overpowered by the "uber-Sith"-syndrome, where the only point is to make the next threat more powerful than the last [insert yawn here]. Still, how the tale of the Qel-Droma brothers ended in the Sith War was indeed cruel. I was positively surprised, since I wouldn't have expected them to do something so harsh. But it worked and, of course, set the scene for Redemption - does Ulic even deserve redemption after what he did? I guess it's the same question some people are asking about Revan now...

[Sir Vougalot]

I have them all. I think they mostly suck, mainly because Keven J. Anderson is a hack who can't write to save his life. However, Redemption was quite good, and probably his best work.

 

I think they should make a new Tales of the Jedi comic series (with a different writer, of course) about the latter part of the Hundred Years Darkness and the final defeat and exile of the Dark Jedi. Ajunta Pall could be one of the characters.

[Jediphile]

I have them all. I think they mostly suck, mainly because Keven J. Anderson is a hack who can't write to save his life. However, Redemption was quite good, and probably his best work.

 

Well, he did co-write the original five issues with Tom Veitch... I must admit that I liked Veitch's work better, though - Dark Empire were far better stories than most of the Tales of the Jedi stories IMHO, even if they were bound by not killing major characters like Luke, Han, Leia etc.

 

I think they should make a new Tales of the Jedi comic series (with a different writer, of course) about the latter part of the Hundred Years Darkness and the final defeat and exile of the Dark Jedi. Ajunta Pall could be one of the characters.

 

The problem with comic books like that is that we already know how it will all play out. That said, they're doing the KotOR comic book with Zayne Carrick right now, which takes place just before the Mandalorian Wars, and that is still interesting, primarily since they've introduced all new characters, who can live or die as the writers please...

[adamqd]

I have them all. I think they mostly suck, mainly because Keven J. Anderson is a hack who can't write to save his life.

 

To each his own, a lot of my comic and book collection is KJA, Maybe I have a less intellectual eye for fiction?