Jediphile Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 yup, relevant. i just totally ruined the movie for myself XD. anyways, yeah, so the the guy is let off lightly for the murder of a person. does it say how much of a senence he got? this is actually quite similar to Revan. the problem we have now, though, is the daunting fact that Revan is a mass murderer. even if he/she got let off easy for about let's say 5 billion deaths, that would still add up to, what? 114 life sentences and 4,383,527 years in prison? Not exactly how much, no, but it comes off with the impression that it's a few years, and then he can get parole. At least that's how it seemed to me. Another point, though, is that this person simply killed someone out of rage, and can so be considered temporarily insane, but just went on with his life afterwards. Revan, however, might have done it for a greater good (stopping the true Sith) and done actions to save the Republic as well by finding the StarForge and killing Malak, thereby ending the Jedi Civil War. Even when Revan finds out how Bastila and the council have been using him, he still doesn't take revenge on them or simply stops his search for the StarForge and lets them rot - he could have simply done nothing and the Republic would have fallen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Revan, however, might have done it for a greater good (stopping the true Sith) and done actions to save the Republic as well by finding the StarForge and killing Malak, thereby ending the Jedi Civil War. Even when Revan finds out how Bastila and the council have been using him, he still doesn't take revenge on them or simply stops his search for the StarForge and lets them rot - he could have simply done nothing and the Republic would have fallen... that's true, doesn't stop him/her from being a mass murderer, though. now, i don't know the whole story, but exactly why did Revan feel that waging war with the Republic would end up helping them? i'd be quite eager to ask that question when i bring him/her to court. EDIT: fixed screwed up post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 that's true, doesn't stop him/her from being a mass murderer, though. now, i don't know the whole story, but exactly why did Revan feel that waging war with the Republic would end up helping them? i'd be quite eager to ask that question when i bring him/her to court. SilentScope001, Republic's Prosectuor Lawyer: "So, tell me, Revan. How would you 'protect' the Republic by blowing it up? Seems a bit 'counter-productive', no? Revan: Of course not. It is surely not counter-productive. SilentScope001: Alright, alright. Let take it from the top. How would your plan work? Revan: Well, once I know the True Sith exist, I realize that they have to be destroyed. SilentScope001: Good job. Now, why didn't you destroy them? Revan: Well...they were too strong. I am a Force God, but I'm not invicinble. I needed the help of the Republic's huge army. SilentScope001: Good thinking and preception. Now...tell me, why didn't you tell the Republic so they can use their huge army to destroy the True Sith? Revan: Because I'm worried that if I tell the Republic, the True Sith would know that the Republic know that the True Sith exist. Then the True Sith would lose the element of surpise. There was...one other thing. The Republic's army is stupid. SilentScope001: Stupid? Elaborte. Revan: Well, if it wasn't for me and the Jedi reinforcements...how in the world would the Republic won the Mandalorian Wars? They needed us, otherwise, had we did nothing, the Republic would have fallen. The Republic would have fallen, was it not for ME. Not for anyone else. Carth: HEY! The Republic could have won without your help! It was only a matter of time! Any Jedi could have done that deed? Revan: Oh? If it wasn't for me, how in the world would you have wiped out the Mandalorians at Malachor V? It was me who laid the trap. SilentScope001: And again, we got ourselves a confession of a crime you have done. Revan: All's fair in war. SilentScope001: But you KILLED your own men in the process! There's gotta be some decency against that. Revan: That's the thing with the Republic and the Jedi and everything. They are held by these stupid things called 'moral codes', that make them unable to think 'outside of the box'. What would have happened if I didn't use the Jedi and the Republic troops at Malachor V? We would be speaking Mandalorian. SilentScope001 (thinking): And had Bastila not intervened, we would be speaking Sith. Revan: And that was why I needed to destroy the Republic! The war was never about Light Side or Dark Side. It was about Republic versus True Sith. The True Sith were powerful because they embraced the Dark Side. If only the Republic embraced the Dark Side, then we would be able to destroy the True Sith. SilentScope001: And that's why you created your own Sith Order. To go and convert the whole galaxy over to the Dark Side, destroy the moral codes that made the Republic what it was today, and then use your new Dark Side Sith Empire to smash the True Sith. Revan: Correct. SilentScope001: I rest my case. Revan should be executed. === A bit inaccurate, to be sure, but it is my view of Revan's fall. I think that it was pretty...well, stupid. Just like TA. Jediphile might see things differently though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 SilentScope001, Republic's Prosectuor Lawyer: "So, tell me, Revan. How would you 'protect' the Republic by blowing it up? Seems a bit 'counter-productive', no? Revan: Of course not. It is surely not counter-productive. SilentScope001: Alright, alright. Let take it from the top. How would your plan work? Jediphile: I object! The defendent cannot be made to answer questions that might serve to incriminate himself - that is a miscarriage of justice! Revan: Well, once I know the True Sith exist, I realize that they have to be destroyed. SilentScope001: Good job. Now, why didn't you destroy them? Revan: Well...they were too strong. I am a Force God, but I'm not invicinble. I needed the help of the Republic's huge army. SilentScope001: Good thinking and preception. Now...tell me, why didn't you tell the Republic so they can use their huge army to destroy the True Sith? Jediphile: Objection! Given the jedi council's low view of Revan and his followers and the time and that they are all dead now, we don't know that no such request were never actually made! Revan: Because I'm worried that if I tell the Republic, the True Sith would know that the Republic know that the True Sith exist. Then the True Sith would lose the element of surpise. There was...one other thing. The Republic's army is stupid. SilentScope001: Stupid? Elaborte. Revan: Well, if it wasn't for me and the Jedi reinforcements...how in the world would the Republic won the Mandalorian Wars? They needed us, otherwise, had we did nothing, the Republic would have fallen. The Republic would have fallen, was it not for ME. Not for anyone else. Carth: HEY! The Republic could have won without your help! It was only a matter of time! Any Jedi could have done that deed? Jediphile: Objection! We can have only one person questioned at a time. If the prosecution wishes to hear the testimony of Admiral Onasi, it will have to recall him to the stand at a later time. He has not been sworn in at this time, and so we cannot take his comments here as truth. Besides, what court allows people from the audience to interrupt an examination? Revan: Oh? If it wasn't for me, how in the world would you have wiped out the Mandalorians at Malachor V? It was me who laid the trap. SilentScope001: And again, we got ourselves a confession of a crime you have done. Revan: All's fair in war. SilentScope001: But you KILLED your own men in the process! There's gotta be some decency against that. Revan: That's the thing with the Republic and the Jedi and everything. They are held by these stupid things called 'moral codes', that make them unable to think 'outside of the box'. What would have happened if I didn't use the Jedi and the Republic troops at Malachor V? We would be speaking Mandalorian. Jediphile: Objection! The prosecution is clearly leading the accused. Judge: Sustained. Jediphile: Revan. Please explain to us what happened on the Malachor V. Revan: Well... I can't say, actually. I wasn't there myself. Jediphile: Aha. Since the defendent was not present, we can establish an alibi and have this particular crime done away with. How can Revan be guilty of a crime, if he was not present to commit it? Judge: Revan planned it, though, didn't you, Revan? Revan: Well, yes... Jediphile: Please explain why. Revan: Well, it's difficult to say, really. At the time I felt the only way to defeat the true Sith was to convert the jedi and use them in that war. Jediphile: Don't you feel so now? Revan: Not really. But at the time I was obsessed with the idea of the true Sith and felt that nobody else could stop them. It was a very different time... Jediphile: Why did you feel that you had to do this? Revan: Because nobody else could. Who else would have acted? The Republic fleet was in shambles and the jedi order had made it quite clear that it was not going to assist. I had nowhere else to turn, so I took it upon myself to come up with a plan - ANY PLAN - to stop the true Sith! Jediphile: But isn't what you suggest against the jedi principle that jedi are never alone? Revan: Well... [ponders the question...] Yes, I suppose it is. But either way I WAS alone because the jedi order would not help and everybody else looked to me for leadership. I realised that I could not waver for an instant, or morale would plummet, and the Republic would be lost. I'm not sure... Maybe I made a big mistake in thinking I could do it all by myself, but at the time, there seemed to be no other choice. I could see only the end of the Republic. I was desperate, and I became determined to fight the true Sith by whatever means. I'd sacrifice everything toward that end - even my own soul... Jediphile: And that is when you fell to the dark side? Revan: I'm not sure if it happened then or before, but certainly I was comitted to that cause by then. Jediphile: Why? Revan: I guess I made the same mistake as Ulic in thinking that I could defeat the dark side from within alone. But then I never saw any other choice... Jediphile: Why not? What would jedi normally have done to prevent falling victim to the dark side in such a case? Revan: Well, the fight to resist the lure of the dark side is the eternal struggle of the jedi and the burden we bear for our power. Jediphile: Then why do not more jedi fall to the dark side? Revan: I suppose that's why jedi are never alone - they stick together so they can help each other keep perspective and be vigilant when the dark side tries to lure us astray. Jediphile: Yet you were alone. Revan: Yes. Jediphile: Why? Revan: Because the council had condemned our actions. We were as good as exiled from the order. Jediphile: But if that eventually meant falling to the dark side, then why did you resist the masters? Revan: What choice did I have? Should we sit around and wait for the Mandalorians to slaughter us all? I couldn't do that. Whatever reasons the masters had, I knew that was not right. My sense of morality and ethics compelled me to act. That's where it all began... SilentScope001 (thinking): And had Bastila not intervened, we would be speaking Sith. Jediphile: Objection. The prosecution doesn't know what he's saying - he has no idea how hard it actually is to speak Sith! Revan: And that was why I needed to destroy the Republic! The war was never about Light Side or Dark Side. It was about Republic versus True Sith. The True Sith were powerful because they embraced the Dark Side. If only the Republic embraced the Dark Side, then we would be able to destroy the True Sith. SilentScope001: And that's why you created your own Sith Order. To go and convert the whole galaxy over to the Dark Side, destroy the moral codes that made the Republic what it was today, and then use your new Dark Side Sith Empire to smash the True Sith. Revan: Correct. SilentScope001: I rest my case. Revan should be executed. Jediphile: Revan, looking back now, how would you describe your mood and your thoughts at the time? Revan: As I said, I was determined and committed to my cause. Everything else become secondary. It was a desperate time, but I could not afford to be complacent or hesitant, or the Republic would have fallen, I felt. Mostly I felt a sort of cold anger that drove me. Jediphile: Do you think the masters could have helped you at that point? Revan: I'm not sure... Maybe. I didn't think so at the time, but their subsequent actions would seem to suggest otherwise, I'd have to admit. But it was not an option. They made it clear that if we left for the war, then there was no coming back - the bridge was burned behind us... Jediphile: Thank you, Revan. I move for the acquittal of the defendent. Yes, Revan was led astray, but he has tried to atone for his misdeeds, and in any event he was failed both by the masters of the jedi order and the Republic who both put him in an impossible situation. "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." Clearly Revan is such a man. But he is not above falling to the dark side if left exposed to it. And that he was by both the Republic, who threw any and all responsibility blindly upon one man, and certainly by the jedi order, whose masters failed utterly to provide Revan with the insight and understanding that he needed, or to help him gain perspective during his darkest hour. Instead they simply cast out anyone who did not strictly adhere to any and all orders given by the masters. How can a good man not rebel against such a rigid system? There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute! The masters forgot that, and so they share the responsibility for what happened. It seems to me that both the jedi order and the Republic want to punish Revan because they cannot live with what happened. Revan is guilty for his crimes, you say? No, we're ALL guilty! We all failed. We failed to take responsibility, and so Revan did at the cost of his very soul in our stead. And now we want to condemn him for it? No, I say! If we do that, then be aware that we are doing so because we want to hold Revan guilty for our own crimes and failures - we're trying to load all our guilt and irresponsibility onto one man and then throw him away, as if that will solve all our problems. But that won't work. And it's not justice. Revan has comitted crimes, yes, and his has admitted it and tried to make amends. He has committed misdeeds, but he has also saved the Republic twice - first from the Mandalorians and then from the Jedi Civil War. And he's trying to do it against the true Sith as well. There are extenuating circumstances to consider. Revan has committed crimes, but he has been punished by a death of personality already, while he has also been fighting to save the Republic in three wars. The masters certainly did not hesitate to use him to their own ends in the war against Malak. Who is holding them responsible for THEIR misdeeds? Revan has erred and committed crimes, yes. Nobody disputes that, Revan least of all. But he has also been punished, he has suffered, he has been manipulated and used, and yet through all that, he has saved the Republic on several fronts already. It's time to let the matter rest and move forward. Revan has suffered enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Jediphile: Revan. Please explain to us what happened on the Malachor V. Revan: Well... I can't say, actually. I wasn't there myself. Jediphile: Aha. Since the defendent was not present, we can establish an alibi and have this particular crime done away with. How can Revan be guilty of a crime, if he was not present to commit it? objection! there isn't sufficient evidence (at least i don't think so) that Revan was gone for the entire battle. we know that he/she wasn't there to begin with, but who says he/she didn't arrive later? he/she could still be responsible for that incident (i'm not completely sure about the events at Malachor V, wasn't it that Bao Dur activated the mass shadow generator and killed the republic and jedi troops on Malachor V, as well as the Mandalorians?) Revan: Well, it's difficult to say, really. At the time I felt the only way to defeat the true Sith was to convert the jedi and use them in that war. Yeah, convert jedi through torture and killing! Revan: Not really. But at the time I was obsessed with the idea of the true Sith and felt that nobody else could stop them. It was a very different time... You thought nobody else could stop them? so you tried to stop them through civil war with your allies? Revan: Because nobody else could. Who else would have acted? The Republic fleet was in shambles and the jedi order had made it quite clear that it was not going to assist. I had nowhere else to turn, so I took it upon myself to come up with a plan - ANY PLAN - to stop the true Sith! Revan: Well... [ponders the question...] Yes, I suppose it is. But either way I WAS alone because the jedi order would not help and everybody else looked to me for leadership. I realised that I could not waver for an instant, or morale would plummet, and the Republic would be lost. I'm not sure... Maybe I made a big mistake in thinking I could do it all by myself, but at the time, there seemed to be no other choice. I could see only the end of the Republic. I was desperate, and I became determined to fight the true Sith by whatever means. I'd sacrifice everything toward that end - even my own soul... Revan: As I said, I was determined and committed to my cause. Everything else become secondary. It was a desperate time, but I could not afford to be complacent or hesitant, or the Republic would have fallen, I felt. Mostly I felt a sort of cold anger that drove me. *ahem*WHAT!? "the jedi order would not help"!? Revan, you didn't even bother to go back to them and tell them about this threat!!! you left right after the Mandalorian wars, supposedly to hunt the rest down, then you come back later and make a war! you didn't ask them for help, and you din't even tell them about the threat! do you think that if you told the jedi about the sith threat, that they'd just continue to sit in their sofas and drink caffa!? not every jedi in the order is an arrogant self serving fool, like the stereotype that many choose to believe. Next of all, Revan, you seem like you were in quite a rush to "prepare" for this threat, weren't you? but the JCW was about 2.5 years long (correct me if i'm wrong) and you left/will leave one year after. that's 3.5 years! you could've spent this time to rebuild the republic fleet using the star forge instead of using it to shred the republic into very tiny, square pieces! you could've also rallied the jedi instead of "converting" them (obviously a very mild term considering what you did to the jedi you captured) and properly prepared for the war. Jediphile: Thank you, Revan. I move for the acquittal of the defendent. Yes, Revan was led astray, but he has tried to atone for his misdeeds, and in any event he was failed both by the masters of the jedi order and the Republic who both put him in an impossible situation. umm, no. see above. "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." Clearly Revan is such a man. But he is not above falling to the dark side if left exposed to it. And that he was by both the Republic, who threw any and all responsibility blindly upon one man, and certainly by the jedi order, whose masters failed utterly to provide Revan with the insight and understanding that he needed, or to help him gain perspective during his darkest hour. Revan wasn't even looking for perspective. It seems to me that both the jedi order and the Republic want to punish Revan because they cannot live with what happened. Revan is guilty for his crimes, you say? No, we're ALL guilty! We all failed. We failed to take responsibility, and so Revan did at the cost of his very soul in our stead. Revan: And that was why I needed to destroy the Republic! The war was never about Light Side or Dark Side. It was about Republic versus True Sith. The True Sith were powerful because they embraced the Dark Side. If only the Republic embraced the Dark Side, then we would be able to destroy the True Sith. Revan made a big mistake in not coming to the jedi in the first place, and because of his/her foolish thought that the darkside is actually stronger than the light. And now we want to condemn him for it? No, I say! If we do that, then be aware that we are doing so because we want to hold Revan guilty for our own crimes and failures - we're trying to load all our guilt and irresponsibility onto one man and then throw him away, as if that will solve all our problems. It won't solve our problems, but Revan is still a killer, still a torturer, and is still guilty. And it's not justice. Revan has comitted crimes, yes, and his has admitted it and tried to make amends. He has committed misdeeds, but he has also saved the Republic twice - first from the Mandalorians and then from the Jedi Civil War. And he's trying to do it against the true Sith as well. There are extenuating circumstances to consider. Revan has committed crimes, but he has been punished by a death of personality already, while he has also been fighting to save the Republic in three wars. The masters certainly did not hesitate to use him to their own ends in the war against Malak. Who is holding them responsible for THEIR misdeeds? You're forgetting that Revan attacked in the first place. mindwiping and using a mass murderer isn't very much of a crime. it's also nothing compared to the atrocities that Revan commited to the jedi to begin with. As well, the "he/she saved the republic so many times!" excuse is unviable. remember my "break even" speech from before? the problem that i have with this statement is that i think you seem to be saying that Revan saves billions, and then promptly kills billions of people, so in other words, he/she kind of "breaks even" and everything is alright. this is not the case. saving a person is not an excuse for suddenly turning around and shooting them. even though Revan did save a substansial amount of people, it cannot, does not excuse you from killing them. Revan has erred and committed crimes, yes. Nobody disputes that, Revan least of all. But he has also been punished, he has suffered, he has been manipulated and used, and yet through all that, he has saved the Republic on several fronts already. It's time to let the matter rest and move forward. Revan has suffered enough. Ha! suffered? how? by sobbing in a corner and feeling sorry for him/herself because he/she just found out that he/she's a bad guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hmm, I don't think I've seen anyone who wants Revan's blood as much as the people here. The Mandalorians don't hold a grudge against Revan, neither do the Echani. Juhani did for the destruction of Taris but realises it's not Revan's fault. Atris seems to harbour her anger to the Exile rather than Revan. The Jedi don't do anything when it's well within their power to do so. Nor do the Republic that Revan had loyally served. Maybe, just maybe, he is worthy of redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Architect Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 What Revan most likely intended to do! Okay, I’ve discovered “proof” of the existence of the True Sith at the Trayus academy of Malachor V. I’ve developed the belief that the only way to defeat them is to create an army of powerful dark siders. Now, how do I do that? Well, I don’t want to start another war just as worse as the Mandalorian Wars just to convert my allies to the dark side, because I’m not supposed to be wiping out and torturing the very people that I want to make up the bulk of my army! What if I fail? Then what? I actually want to have an army! But how can I do this without bloodshed? Well, I’m a charismatic military genius well respected by the Republic and many of the Jedi, so converting people via talking to them shouldn’t be much of a problem for me. I have “proof” of the existence of the True Sith, so…. Why don’t I just return to the galaxy, show my proof to those I want in my army, and establish the so-called fact of mine that the only way to stop the True Sith is to sacrifice yourself to the dark side? Okay, so I’m positive that the Jedi Council wouldn’t approve of sacrificing themselves to the dark side, but so what? With the proof I have, I should be able to convert most of the Jedi who didn’t go to war anyway. Ah, now here are the problems: 1. How exactly did Revan find out about the True Sith? Did Revan find any proof? If so, why didn’t he/she use it to convert people, instead of waging a massive war of conversion that would only screw up his/her plan? If not, what exactly made Revan believe that this True Sith threat exists in the first place? 2. Doesn’t Malachor V corrupt all (excluding wounds in the force and droids) who walk upon its surface? I think it does. Why? Well, I assume that Revan intended to not start a massive war of conversion. I think that Revan wanted to use his/her proof (if he/she had any proof) or something to convert people without bloodshed, but since he/she thought he/she could handle the dark side, and Malachor V presumably corrupts all (excluding wounds in the force and droids) who walk upon its surface, he/she didn’t end up starting a massive war of conversion as he/she planned, but started a massive war of conquest instead! But even then we learn in TSL that Revan left key parts of the Republic’s infrastructure in tact and all that jazz. However, I don’t think it’s because Revan stuck to his/her war of conversion plan, I think it’s because Revan just saw the worth in preserving key parts of the Republic’s infrastructure (it would help build a strong Sith Empire). Either way, Revan’s plan was a big failure (ironically Malak could end up being the hero in all of this). Starting a war even worse than the Mandalorian Wars in an attempt to create a strong army to fight against the True Sith doesn’t sound like something a military genius would do. And people wonder why I think *cough* the most overrated character in Star Wars *cough* Revan isn’t all he/she is cracked up to be, tactically speaking. Still, if Revan wasn’t corrupted by Malachor V, would he/she have found the proof of the existence of the True Sith (if there is umm…any proof)? If Revan found proof somewhere else or whatever and wasn’t corrupted by Malachor V, would he/she have started a massive war of conversion to create an army of dark siders? Was Revan aware of the effect Malachor V would have on him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 (i'm not completely sure about the events at Malachor V, wasn't it that Bao Dur activated the mass shadow generator and killed the republic and jedi troops on Malachor V, as well as the Mandalorians?) The Exile. Revan arrived later during the battle, but the action was over. All that was left for him to do was defeat Mandalore the Ultimate in personal combat. Yeah, convert jedi through torture and killing! I don't quite see the point of your objection. While such deeds may have been less than moral, temporary evils such as that would be far preferable than a galaxy kept under the true Sith's yoke for millenia. You thought nobody else could stop them? so you tried to stop them through civil war with your allies? A civil war was the result, but not the main goal. To outline several things about the conflict for you... Provoked by the true Sith, the Mandalorians attack the Republic. The Jedi refuse to help and the Republic military is shown for the joke it is. They get their asses kicked. Revan intervenes. The Republic wins. On Malachor V he discovers a threat even greater than the Mandalorians is going to attack the Republic, and is faced with two options: (1. Try to prepare a weakened, corrupt, exhausted and indefensible state for a war even larger than it has already experienced. Bureaucracy prevents anything from being done unless the competent people (him) intervene, which is usually a difficult process and they must answer to a Senate that has no idea how to fight the war. This is all operating under the assumption that they even believe he is telling the truth, by the way. If they don't they will likely downsize the Republic's military with the closure of the war and become even weaker. (2. Take matters into his own hands. Being the person most able to resist the threat of the true Sith, it is only logical he should lead the defense against it. No bureaucracy or higher power will interfere with his decisions, which are the best ones. By turning to the dark side he will also be able to use the power of the Star Forge, and produce a fleet of such quantity that it will be a match for the true Sith's. The Republic's current one is incapable of such and there is not enough time to build one manually. He also turns Jedi to the dark side to serve as his generals. With his extremely powerful military established, he knows the Republic and the Jedi will object. He crushes them as swiftly as possible. With them out of the way and him in command, he may defend the galaxy better than the Republic could. In other words, he was faced with the choice of killing millions of people in a matter of years, or letting someone else kill billions and perhaps even trillions while having millenia with which to do it. Between the two I think the former was a far more moral choice. *ahem*WHAT!? "the jedi order would not help"!? Revan, you didn't even bother to go back to them and tell them about this threat!!! Hypothetically, if someone told you that an enemy thought dead for millenia was going to invade and his only proof were ancient writings considered blasphemy to read and the whole thing would cost trillions of credits, would you listen? Probably not. Besides, the authority does not lie with the Jedi to decide. It's the Senate that governs the Republic, not them. And even supposing they did believe him, they would not accept his use of the Star Forge (being a dark side artifact) and attempt to destroy it. While the Jedi are useful, he could have nearly as many if you simply converted them to the dark side and would have the added bonus of being able to use the Star Forge, something the war could not be won without. Really, it's either the Republic for several years or the galaxy for millenia that he'd have to sacrifice. you could've also rallied the jedi instead of "converting" them (obviously a very mild term considering what you did to the jedi you captured) and properly prepared for the war. Since Revan would not be the one with ultimate authority and would be deprived of the fleet necessary for the war, I doubt he could adequately prepare for it. Revan made a big mistake in not coming to the jedi in the first place, and because of his/her foolish thought that the darkside is actually stronger than the light. In this situation the light side is the weaker. He's get Jedi regardless of which side he picks, but the Star Forge? Dark side only. I'd consider an essentially limitless fleet that can be produced at almost no cost dozens of times faster than normal quite the asset. It won't solve our problems, but Revan is still a killer, still a torturer, and is still guilty. The killing is impossible to avoid. Which is preferable, Revan killing a few million or the true Sith killing a few billion or trillion? He'd have been even more of a murderer to stand aside and let the true Sith enslave the galaxy. Ha! suffered? how? by sobbing in a corner and feeling sorry for him/herself because he/she just found out that he/she's a bad guy? Of course he suffered. He had to kill millions of people, watch his close friends suffer and die (some by his hand), and coordinate several wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hmm, I don't think I've seen anyone who wants Revan's blood as much as the people here. The Mandalorians don't hold a grudge against Revan, neither do the Echani. Juhani did for the destruction of Taris but realises it's not Revan's fault. Atris seems to harbour her anger to the Exile rather than Revan. The Jedi don't do anything when it's well within their power to do so. Nor do the Republic that Revan had loyally served. Maybe, just maybe, he is worthy of redemption. Maybe not. You see, the reason nobody called for the execution of Revan in Star Wars is because of the theme of redemeption. Everyone believed in redempetion, except Kreia. In this real world, we hate redemeption, and some of us are vengeful people. Mostly, some of us are just concerned at the brutailty and the violence of Revan. Yes, Revan deserves redemeption in the eyes of the Republic, due to the "Star Wars" culture...BUT, does he deserve redemption in the eye of the player? Well, not me of course. I could be biased...My canon Revan did end up betraying the Republic again. I will go and reply to Jediphile and ED as soon as possible, hopefully. I really am hopeful that this could turn into a pretty good debate topic that I can then convert to a fan fiction on the trial (and the resulting verdict, if it would lead to execution or being declared not guilty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 The Exile. Revan arrived later during the battle, but the action was over. All that was left for him to do was defeat Mandalore the Ultimate in personal combat. the exile was still acting under Revan's orders. I don't quite see the point of your objection. While such deeds may have been less than moral, temporary evils such as that would be far preferable than a galaxy kept under the true Sith's yoke for millenia. it is avoidable. keep reading and i'll explain. Revan intervenes. The Republic wins. On Malachor V he discovers a threat even greater than the Mandalorians is going to attack the Republic, and is faced with two options: (1. Try to prepare a weakened, corrupt, exhausted and indefensible state for a war even larger than it has already experienced. Bureaucracy prevents anything from being done unless the competent people (him) intervene, which is usually a difficult process and they must answer to a Senate that has no idea how to fight the war. This is all operating under the assumption that they even believe he is telling the truth, by the way. If they don't they will likely downsize the Republic's military with the closure of the war and become even weaker. you're forgeting 2 very important points here. 1. Revan has (approximately) at least 3.5 years to prep for the attack. in addition to this, he/she has the star forge (i'd really appreciate it if someone explaines to me how the SF works. you must be ds to use it? do you need multiple jedi?) with this much time and a very useful artifact at his/her disposal, Revan has plenty of time to rebuild the fleet. 2. the republic completely, utterly trusts Revan. to everyone, he/she is a leader, a strategist, and someone to be trusted. who do you think gave Revan one third (it was a third, right?) of the republic's fleet for the Mandalorian wars? after Revan crushed the Mandos on Malachor V and left to supposedly "clean up the mess", there definitely must have been very few Mandos left to take down. did the Republic ask for most of its fleet back? NO! heck, they might've even let him/her keep the whole thing after his/her landslide strategic victory. after the Mando wars, if there was one person the republic trusted, it was Revan. (2. Take matters into his own hands. Being the person most able to resist the threat of the true Sith, it is only logical he should lead the defense against it. No bureaucracy or higher power will interfere with his decisions, which are the best ones. By turning to the dark side he will also be able to use the power of the Star Forge, and produce a fleet of such quantity that it will be a match for the true Sith's. The Republic's current one is incapable of such and there is not enough time to build one manually. He also turns Jedi to the dark side to serve as his generals. With his extremely powerful military established, he knows the Republic and the Jedi will object. He crushes them as swiftly as possible. With them out of the way and him in command, he may defend the galaxy better than the Republic could. the bureaucracy trusts Revan. they won't get in his/her way. i can't answer the star forge question until i know: do you need multiple jedi to use it, or can Revan use it alone? i think Revan can use it him/herself and if so, then you don't even need to convert anyone in the first place. if you need multiple ones, then you can just drag a few gifted ones to Malachor V (pure ds there) instead of doing what he/she did. torture? come on, you can think of something better than that!!! In other words, he was faced with the choice of killing millions of people in a matter of years, or letting someone else kill billions and perhaps even trillions while having millenia with which to do it. Between the two I think the former was a far more moral choice. well, it seems that you've forgotten choice c. not kill anyone at all. Hypothetically, if someone told you that an enemy thought dead for millenia was going to invade and his only proof were ancient writings considered blasphemy to read and the whole thing would cost trillions of credits, would you listen? Probably not. i don't think (correct me if i'm incorrect, of course) that we know exactly what Revan found out in the unknown regions. if there was something there to convince him/her to believe that the true sith are out there and planning to attack, i think that he/she found actual solid, concrete proof of it. this could convince many of the jedi, maybe even Vrook Or if not, at least a lot of the open minded jedi like vandar. Besides, the authority does not lie with the Jedi to decide. It's the Senate that governs the Republic, not them. And even supposing they did believe him, they would not accept his use of the Star Forge (being a dark side artifact) and attempt to destroy it. While the Jedi are useful, he could have nearly as many if you simply converted them to the dark side and would have the added bonus of being able to use the Star Forge, something the war could not be won without. Really, it's either the Republic for several years or the galaxy for millenia that he'd have to sacrifice. i said before, the senate is with Revan all the way. he/she is the uber glorious hero and strategic genious, after the events of Malachor V, they couldn't even invent excuses to not trust him/her if they tried. In this situation the light side is the weaker. He's get Jedi regardless of which side he picks, but the Star Forge? Dark side only. I'd consider an essentially limitless fleet that can be produced at almost no cost dozens of times faster than normal quite the asset. the question still stands of whether he/she could use it alone or not. The killing is impossible to avoid. Which is preferable, Revan killing a few million or the true Sith killing a few billion or trillion? He'd have been even more of a murderer to stand aside and let the true Sith enslave the galaxy. actually it seems that it was avoidable. Of course he suffered. He had to kill millions of people, watch his close friends suffer and die (some by his hand), and coordinate several wars. yeah, i'll give you this one. i was behaving a bit unfairly in my last post when i said this. uh...sorry Revan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Why look a gift horse in the mouth? I'm certain after everything Revan has done people feel they need to cut him some slack. Who saved the Republic from the Mandalorians? Revan. Who redeemed himself by finding the Star Forge and defeating Malek and the Sith? Revan. Who would be the best person to defend the Republic in the aftermath? Mission. You know it's Revan. When did things begin to fall apart? When Revan disappeared? What would have happened if he stayed? In fact the way the galaxy is in Sith Lords would be the same whether or not Revan was executed, in fact I'd venture to say it'd be worse. His allies would certainly have a say about it and such an action would split the Republic and Jedi apart, with possibly disasterous consequences. As for the Star Forge, I think it draws on the person using it, twisting them into something evil. I think it was Malek's overreliance of it that brought him to the point where he would wipe out worlds on a whim, rather than Revan following some type of master plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 the exile was still acting under Revan's orders. If you can find some evidence of this I'd love to hear it, but it's never stated who ordered the building of the Mass Shadow Generator. For all we know the Exile and Bao-Dur could've consipred to build it by themselves. But a debate over the MSG is pretty pointless IMO. From what Bao-Dur says in TSL, it's pretty clear the Republic would've lost the battle and a big chunk of their fleet if they didn't use it. 1. Revan has (approximately) at least 3.5 years to prep for the attack. Not a very good amount of time. From what we've seen in the EU, it can take about one year to construct a capital ship. Whereas with the Star Forge, it looks more like a few days, not to mention not having to worry about the resources or the credits required to build them. You'll obviously get a far bigger fleet using the Forge. (i'd really appreciate it if someone explaines to me how the SF works. you must be ds to use it? do you need multiple jedi?) DS only. Nope, you only need one person immensly powerful in the dark side. The Jedi are still useful, however - they are very powerful warriors and excellent generals. \with this much time and a very useful artifact at his/her disposal, Revan has plenty of time to rebuild the fleet. If Revan's a darksider, sure. did the Republic ask for most of its fleet back? NO! heck, they might've even let him/her keep the whole thing after his/her landslide strategic victory. after the Mando wars, if there was one person the republic trusted, it was Revan. The Republic fleet is not something people get to keep or which can be given away like a credit. Revan was simply put in command of it, and could be removed from office if the Senate or the Republic's version of a Secretary of War saw fit. the bureaucracy trusts Revan. they won't get in his/her way. Would they? I'd advise taking a deeper look into Republic politics. The Senate is a body mired with corruption that cares more for itself than the people they're guarding. They have quite a few reasons to get in his way, mainly: Revan's proposal to build a fleet could cost them trillions of credits. Spending that much money on an unseen threat would hurt their public images. A politician who'd rather spend money on the military than health care or humane causes would not be popular, especially when he'd have to keep up that stance for over 3 years. People would get very dissatisfied in that time. He has no credible proof to support his claims. To build this giant fleet a good chunk of the Senators would have to stop embezzling the defense budget for it. Revan is very popular, perhaps too popular. If he gets liked enough he could threaten their power. They would not want to grant him emergency powers during the war. That would only reduce their own. Politicians never will agree unanimously on something. Democracy will ensure it takes longer for decisions to be made. torture? come on, you can think of something better than that!!! Not really. Revan himself is a gifted commander and the Star Forge may provide him with a giant fleet, but who would command it? He can't do it all himself, he needs generals. Since the Jedi would refuse to aid him if he used the Star Forge (an essential thing for the war effort), he has to force them to. In the light of the trillions of lives he was saving, I think torturing a couple hundred/thousand people can be excused. well, it seems that you've forgotten choice c. not kill anyone at all. Such an option will mean Revan will have a much, much smaller fleet (supposing he's even able to get it built) and have the Senate to interfere with his decisions. In this case the Republic would be crushed, the true Sith would win, and trillions would die. I consider Revan killing millions to be far preferable. i don't think (correct me if i'm incorrect, of course) that we know exactly what Revan found out in the unknown regions. From what the chronicles on the KotOR II website said, he discovered the existence of the true Sith from evidence they left behind in the Trayus Academy. Revan poking around his nose their would make it look like he'd fallen to the dark side (and thus couldn't be trusted) to most Jedi, and that's not even mentioning how they'd scoff at any proof he found there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 *deep breath* okay...i'm ready. btw, some of the responses are reordered to go in a logical order. sorry for that. He has no credible proof to support his claims. you're still not telling me what he/she actually found. if something convinced Revan to make war with the republic and sacrifice his/her soul (unnecesarily), it was probably REALLY solid proof. he/she can do crazy things, but he/she would sell her soul and kill some billion people over a 50% chance gamble. From what the chronicles on the KotOR II website said, he discovered the existence of the true Sith from evidence they left behind in the Trayus Academy. Revan poking around his nose their would make it look like he'd fallen to the dark side (and thus couldn't be trusted) to most Jedi, and that's not even mentioning how they'd scoff at any proof he found there. they wouldn't scoff at it if it's good proof. and if there's proof, you can't ignore it. Not really. Revan himself is a gifted commander and the Star Forge may provide him with a giant fleet, but who would command it? He can't do it all himself, he needs generals. Since the Jedi would refuse to aid him if he used the Star Forge (an essential thing for the war effort), he has to force them to. In the light of the trillions of lives he was saving, I think torturing a couple hundred/thousand people can be excused. if Revan has good proof, the jedi would sway. they don't have a choice in the matter. either join and use the star forge, or lose the republic and the jedi and the sith win. besides, jedi love to stop the sith. it's their main goal to bring balance to the force. take the war to them? count me in! If you can find some evidence of this I'd love to hear it, but it's never stated who ordered the building of the Mass Shadow Generator. For all we know the Exile and Bao-Dur could've consipred to build it by themselves. well, the Exile was a general under Revan in the first place, so it's only natural that he/she would be obeying Revan's orders. of course we can all say "but what if the exile was plotting something this entire time?" or "what if Bao dur was drunk and accidentaly pushed the big red button to activate the generator?" or "what if a flying spoon pushed the big red button?" but in the end it is most probable that the exile was just following orders. same goes with who ordered the construction. i understand your point though that we really don't know anything so we should probably close the disscusion about the mass shadow generator (if we can... ) But a debate over the MSG is pretty pointless IMO. From what Bao-Dur says in TSL, it's pretty clear the Republic would've lost the battle and a big chunk of their fleet if they didn't use it. it isn't pointless in that respect. it could be completely different is Revan was planning to use it and kill everyone on mal V. considering he/she ordered the building the thing in the first place, it's quite probable that he/she was intending to use it before the battle even started. they didn't know whether the republic would be losing badly or not, so planning to kill everyone there puts Revan at fault. If Revan's a darksider, sure. i looked up the star forge online. it corrupts, but you don't need to be ds to use it. Not a very good amount of time. From what we've seen in the EU, it can take about one year to construct a capital ship. Whereas with the Star Forge, it looks more like a few days, not to mention not having to worry about the resources or the credits required to build them. You'll obviously get a far bigger fleet using the Forge. exactly. so Revan is going to use the star forge. how? simple. when Revan rallies the jedi you simply get all of the jedi to take turns using it in short intervals of time. the star forge corrupts, but a jedi doesn't use it for 2 minutes and says "ZOMG! i'm so EVILLLLLLL!!!" no. it should take a significant amount of time before that happens, and before the effects can even be felt. before the JCW, there were a lot of jedi. maybe in the thousands. get every one to take turns using it and tada! Nope, you only need one person immensly powerful in the dark side. The Jedi are still useful, however - they are very powerful warriors and excellent generals. ls jedi are just as good generals. you don't need to kill half of them and torture the rest just to put them on your side. The Republic fleet is not something people get to keep or which can be given away like a credit. Revan was simply put in command of it, and could be removed from office if the Senate or the Republic's version of a Secretary of War saw fit. opps, sry i meant that they'd led him/her keep command of it. sorry again Would they? I'd advise taking a deeper look into Republic politics. The Senate is a body mired with corruption that cares more for itself than the people they're guarding. They have quite a few reasons to get in his way, mainly: Revan's proposal to build a fleet could cost them trillions of credits. Spending that much money on an unseen threat would hurt their public images. A politician who'd rather spend money on the military than health care or humane causes would not be popular, especially when he'd have to keep up that stance for over 3 years. People would get very dissatisfied in that time. hm? did i just hear a stereotype? not every politician is a power thirsty, self caring fool that has no foresight, y'know. plus, even if they actually cared only about themselves, they'd start making troops immediately to save their own hides. forget health care for children! i als said they'd use the star forge, so that's make everyone happy, too. To build this giant fleet a good chunk of the Senators would have to stop embezzling the defense budget for it. stereotype. and what i said above solves this. Revan is very popular, perhaps too popular. If he gets liked enough he could threaten their power. stereotype. plus, i already said that they trust Revan to a good extent. even then, trying to take down the most popular man/woman in the galaxy doesn't do wonders for your reputation. They would not want to grant him emergency powers during the war. That would only reduce their own. stereotype. and if they are the self serving rats you claim them to be, they grant him/her power, at least temporarily because they can either do that or attempt to poorly defend themselves and be killed. Politicians never will agree unanimously on something. Democracy will ensure it takes longer for decisions to be made. if Revan has decent proof, they don't really have a choice. Such an option will mean Revan will have a much, much smaller fleet (supposing he's even able to get it built) and have the Senate to interfere with his decisions. In this case the Republic would be crushed, the true Sith would win, and trillions would die. I consider Revan killing millions to be far preferable. maybe you don't have to kill anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 you're forgeting 2 very important points here. 1. Revan has (approximately) at least 3.5 years to prep for the attack. in addition to this, he/she has the star forge (i'd really appreciate it if someone explaines to me how the SF works. you must be ds to use it? do you need multiple jedi?) with this much time and a very useful artifact at his/her disposal, Revan has plenty of time to rebuild the fleet. 2. the republic completely, utterly trusts Revan. to everyone, he/she is a leader, a strategist, and someone to be trusted. who do you think gave Revan one third (it was a third, right?) of the republic's fleet for the Mandalorian wars? after Revan crushed the Mandos on Malachor V and left to supposedly "clean up the mess", there definitely must have been very few Mandos left to take down. did the Republic ask for most of its fleet back? NO! heck, they might've even let him/her keep the whole thing after his/her landslide strategic victory. after the Mando wars, if there was one person the republic trusted, it was Revan. At the rist of butting in, let me comment on these... 1. Yes, Revan had 3.5 years to prepare, but using that timetable to base our evaluation of Revan on is judging based on facts established later by history and not on what was known to Revan or anyone else at the time. Or simply put, we have no basis for assuming that Revan knew he would have that much time to prepare, and I actually find it unlikely that he would have thought so. I mean, you're fighting the Mandalorians, but then you learn that they were goaded into this war by ancient enemies who instigated the whole situation to weakned the Republic. Why would they do so? Because they intend to invade. When would they likely do that? When the Republic is at it's weakest. When will that probably be? When the Mandalorian Wars are over. We can just as well make a case for claiming that Revan embraced the dark side, because he assumed the true Sith would be coming soon, and once they did, his own fall to the dark side would be a non-issue because both his army, the Jedi order and the Republic would be united by a common foe. Only, of course, the true Sith just chose to not attack and instead let Revan fall further and further into corruption until he finally turned against the Republic itself... 2. What the Republic would give Revan during a desperate time of war is not necessarily what they would give him during a time of peace. Indeed, wars can have a great influence on who are appointed to leadership. Take Winston Churchill for example - war made him Prime Minister in Britain, but after the war he immediately lost the next election and fell from power. Historically this has been quite true for military leaders - they can be elected to win the wars, but rarely to organize peace, especially not if they are very popular among the general population, because that will mean the politicians all feel threatened by them. I'm going to agree with Emperor Devon there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 At the rist of butting in, let me comment on these... 1. Yes, Revan had 3.5 years to prepare, but using that timetable to base our evaluation of Revan on is judging based on facts established later by history and not on what was known to Revan or anyone else at the time. Or simply put, we have no basis for assuming that Revan knew he would have that much time to prepare, and I actually find it unlikely that he would have thought so. I mean, you're fighting the Mandalorians, but then you learn that they were goaded into this war by ancient enemies who instigated the whole situation to weakned the Republic. Why would they do so? Because they intend to invade. When would they likely do that? When the Republic is at it's weakest. When will that probably be? When the Mandalorian Wars are over. We can just as well make a case for claiming that Revan embraced the dark side, because he assumed the true Sith would be coming soon, and once they did, his own fall to the dark side would be a non-issue because both his army, the Jedi order and the Republic would be united by a common foe. Only, of course, the true Sith just chose to not attack and instead let Revan fall further and further into corruption until he finally turned against the Republic itself... ...so instead, Revan launched a war that lasted about 2.5 years in order to "rally" forces. that's not much better. i mean, seriously! did he/she think that the war was going to last like 11 minutes or something!? 2. What the Republic would give Revan during a desperate time of war is not necessarily what they would give him during a time of peace. Indeed, wars can have a great influence on who are appointed to leadership. Take Winston Churchill for example - war made him Prime Minister in Britain, but after the war he immediately lost the next election and fell from power. Historically this has been quite true for military leaders - they can be elected to win the wars, but rarely to organize peace, especially not if they are very popular among the general population, because that will mean the politicians all feel threatened by them. I'm going to agree with Emperor Devon there... but they still left Revan a third of the fleet, even when he/she was just "cleaning up". that says something. as well, it will be a time of need when they see proof that the sith are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 you're still not telling me what he/she actually found. Because LA hasn't said. From what we saw of the Trayus Academy and know of the EU, however, I would guess he discovered the true Sith's existence from the various artifacts left behind in the academy or was able to divine their existence using the dark side energies of the planet. Neither option is particularly appealing to the Jedi or the Republic. Any holocrons/artifacts he discovered would have been thousands of years old, and dark side ones too boot. Not the most reliable or trustworthy of sources. If he divined their existence from the dark side, that would be even worse - to the Senate it would be just mumbo-jumbo and ancient religions, and reason to execute him on the spot to the Jedi. How do they know that Revan, having used the dark side to such a degree, hasn't fallen into it and is trying to manipulate the Senate into building a fleet he could take over and use to conquer the Republic? if Revan has good proof, the jedi would sway. they don't have a choice in the matter. Which he does not. All he has to offer the Jedi are sources considered downright blasphemous, which make any who read/use them evil and baby-eating Sith who deserve to be executed. i understand your point though that we really don't know anything so we should probably close the disscusion about the mas shadow generator (if we can... ) Since we have no evidence to back up any of our claims, I agree. considering he/she ordered the building the thing in the first place, it's quite probable that he/she was intending to use it before the battle even started. they didn't know whether the republic would be losing badly or not, so planning to kill everyone there puts Revan at fault. I'm more inclined to think the MSG was a last resort weapon. Since Bao-Dur was probably familiar with what the device would do upon activation, the Republic would've known they would suffer heavy casualties were they to activate it. That the Exile ordered it to be used when the Republic was losing seems perfectly sensible IMO. Either destroy both fleets, or let the Republic fleet get destroyed and let the Mandalorian one go on to kill more people. i looked up the star forge online. it corrupts, but you don't need to be ds to use it. You'll find better explanations in the game. It's stated numberous times that the dark side is a powerful tool fueled by the dark side itself. I'm inclined to think it's a dark side-exclusive one becasue: It is known for a fact that the Forge uses the Force to build ships at the speed it does. Since it is a tool of the dark side and must use it to fuel itself, I'm inclined to think it uses that particular side of the Force to build things. (This is stated numerous times by the Rakatan computer and Malak in any case) That the Forge runs on the dark side established, it's also evident that when there is a lack of that it cannot produce anything. From what the Rakatan computer says, the Forge went dormant and halted all production once it ran out of "fuel" (the Rakata in this case). Since the dark side makes the Forge build things and no dark side makes it stop, don't you think it's a bit of a far leap in logic to assume the light side could make it run just as well? They're totally opposite types of "fuels". That's like giving someone a glass of oil and expecting it to have the same effect on them as water. Sure they're both fuels, but that doesn't mean everything will run on them. before the JCW, there were a lot of jedi. maybe in the thousands. get every one to take turns using it and tada! Assuming the Jedi would be willing to work with something they consider an abomination, they would be insufficient from the task. From what is stated in TSL by Goto and Bastila's holocron, the Star Forge went dormant when Malak and Revan left. Even though other darksiders tried to get it to work, it didn't. Why? As the Rakatan computer states, only one who has an immense strength of will and the dark side can make the Forge work. Otherwise, it simply consumes them (Bastila mentions all other Sith who tried to make it work were consumed). Going back to my fuel analogy, think of the Star Forge as a car and Malak and Revan's strength in the dark side as barrels of oil. They'll get it to run, and they'll get it to run for a while. Then picture most other Sith's command of the dark side as tablespoons of oil. Sure, they're the right kind of fuel, but there simply isn't enough of it to get the Forge to run. Since the Jedi Order contained very few people as powerful in the dark side as Revan and Malak, I don't think the "taking turns" idea would work. hm? did i just hear a stereotype? You just heard a fact. As ridiculous as it may sound, in Star Wars the majority the Senators are corrupt ones. Yes, it's absurd, but that's the way Lucas and the EU writers chose to make it. (Even in KotOR there are a ton of references to how corrupt/ineffective the Senate is) Nope, in Star Wars it's a near-completely corrupt governing body. I think that answers most of your below points about stereotypes. even then, trying to take down the most popular man/woman in the galaxy doesn't do wonders for your reputation. Not really... All they'd have to is broadcast Revan's totally unbelievable ideas about the true Sith on the HoloNet, and they'd be more than able to turn him down. Heck, they wouldn't even have to come up with an excuse for saying no. at least temporarily because they can either do that or attempt to poorly defend themselves and be killed. If they grant him power and spend trillions of credits on a giant fleet, they'll be voted out of office... There'll be nothing left for them to save. It's moot in any case. They can become extremely unpopular and get voted out of office within several years and get killed eventually (because Revan would be working with the Republic), or they could say no, get killed eventually, but have the added bonus of being able to plunder the system for several more years without inhibit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Given that Lucasarts basically has say so on anything that is Star Wars wouldn't anything in KOTOR be considered canon? Does there have to be a film trilogy to make it so? Or is this another 'Han shoots first' deal, nothing will please those who have diffirent ideas to what's established? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 ...so instead, Revan launched a war that lasted about 2.5 years in order to "rally" forces. that's not much better. i mean, seriously! did he/she think that the war was going to last like 11 minutes or something!? My take on that matter is that by then Revan had already fallen so far to the dark side that "saving" the republic by conquering had already become necessary, since it had been woven into what I consider to be his paranoid delusions of the true Sith by then. And of course, he had been completely seduced by his own lust for power, too... But they still left Revan a third of the fleet, even when he/she was just "cleaning up". that says something. as well, it will be a time of need when they see proof that the sith are coming. But did they "leave" him a third of the fleet? I don't know that they did. Revan was a hero, and the Republic had given him a third of the fleet to fight the Mandalorians with, yes, but I don't know that the Republic told him to just go do whatever he wanted, no problem, or anything else along those lines. And as Atton would point out, the loyalty of the soldiers in that fleet would be more loyal to Revan than to the Jedi Order or even the Republic politicians, who stayed at home and did nothing, while Revan and his jedi were out on the frontlines bleeding and dying along with the common soldier. After that it would have been very dangerous to try to order Revan to do anything, since the loyalty would more likely favor him than the Republic. In fact, isn't that exactly what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lantzen Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Well, it's depends on how the forth comming story turns out, if Revan come back and save the day from the True Sith, and once again show his heorism il think they would let him go. But if he just turn up like it's now, and the Republic take him, il think they should execute him, i would think it's very suspicios that the ex-sith lord would have kill Malak, then just disaper for more then 5 years then turn up again and no evidence what he have been doing hole the time. But the Republic should still hold a trial, and depanding on what Revan have been doing, he could maybe be released Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 You just heard a fact. As ridiculous as it may sound, in Star Wars the majority the Senators are corrupt ones. Yes, it's absurd, but that's the way Lucas and the EU writers chose to make it. (Even in KotOR there are a ton of references to how corrupt/ineffective the Senate is) O_o what!? where'd you hear that? is that true!? could you give some kind of proof pls? also, IMO alot of people in this world think politicians are corrupt, but few are. if you ask me that's just people's nature to blame leaders and have excessive paranoia. people love the "conspiracy theory". Because LA hasn't said. From what we saw of the Trayus Academy and know of the EU, however, I would guess he discovered the true Sith's existence from the various artifacts left behind in the academy or was able to divine their existence using the dark side energies of the planet. Neither option is particularly appealing to the Jedi or the Republic. Any holocrons/artifacts he discovered would have been thousands of years old, and dark side ones too boot. Not the most reliable or trustworthy of sources. if they weren't reliable, then why would he/she risk making war and losing his/her soul over a gamble like that? i said it one and i'll say it again. if Revan was going to go to war, kill and torture a lot of people, and lose his/her soul to the darkside, there must have been some really solid, accurate, trustworthy proof. Revan is a strategist at heart, and he/she would never do something like that over a 40% gamble, not a 50% gamble, and not a 55% gamble. and darkside or not, if there's good proof, the republic and jedi have to buy it. there's no choice. If he divined their existence from the dark side, that would be even worse - to the Senate it would be just mumbo-jumbo and ancient religions, and reason to execute him on the spot to the Jedi. How do they know that Revan, having used the dark side to such a degree, hasn't fallen into it and is trying to manipulate the Senate into building a fleet he could take over and use to conquer the Republic? i don't think he/she has fallen yet. didn't he/she fall to the dark side after finding proof because he/she supposedly "had to"? then Revan should be fine. also, people trust Revan! if the people in the senate have a quarter of a brain, they'd do what Revan wants to get on the good side of the people and keep their position. Which he does not. All he has to offer the Jedi are sources considered downright blasphemous, which make any who read/use them evil and baby-eating Sith who deserve to be executed. again, if it's good proof (which it most probably is) it should definitely at least convince open minded jedi like Vandar. can you ignore a sith threat standing in the republic's porch? I'm more inclined to think the MSG was a last resort weapon. Since Bao-Dur was probably familiar with what the device would do upon activation, the Republic would've known they would suffer heavy casualties were they to activate it. That the Exile ordered it to be used when the Republic was losing seems perfectly sensible IMO. Either destroy both fleets, or let the Republic fleet get destroyed and let the Mandalorian one go on to kill more people. a kamikaze bomb? yeah, i think i get that. that seems pretty sensible to me, too. i think that most everything Revan did during the mando wars was okay, but i just wanted to check for any foul play or lives lost unnecesarily. of course, i think we all have to agree that it being the best strategic choice doesn't make it any more honorable to kill a whack of people on your side... You'll find better explanations in the game. It's stated numberous times that the dark side is a powerful tool fueled by the dark side itself. I'm inclined to think it's a dark side-exclusive one becasue: It is known for a fact that the Forge uses the Force to build ships at the speed it does. Since it is a tool of the dark side and must use it to fuel itself, I'm inclined to think it uses that particular side of the Force to build things. (This is stated numerous times by the Rakatan computer and Malak in any case) That the Forge runs on the dark side established, it's also evident that when there is a lack of that it cannot produce anything. From what the Rakatan computer says, the Forge went dormant and halted all production once it ran out of "fuel" (the Rakata in this case). Since the dark side makes the Forge build things and no dark side makes it stop, don't you think it's a bit of a far leap in logic to assume the light side could make it run just as well? They're totally opposite types of "fuels". That's like giving someone a glass of oil and expecting it to have the same effect on them as water. Sure they're both fuels, but that doesn't mean everything will run on them. okay, i'm gonna quote Wookiepedia here: The Star Forge, a fusion of technology and darkside energies, fed on the power of the Force, drawing particularly from the cruel Rakata. The living superweapon began corrupting the hearts of the Rakata in order to gain the immense power it required to operate itself. The Star Forge's ability to corrupt its users forced Darth Revan to limit his contact with the evil tool of the dark side, lest it control him as it did the Rakata. look, i know Wookiepedia isn't foolproof, but i'm a bit lazy to pull the game out and play that part right now, so cut me some slack. so, the star forge was made from technology and the DS. one important point to note here is: "fed on the power of the Force, drawing particularly from the cruel Rakata." since the Rakata are kinda ds, this translates to "fed on the power of the force, drawing particularly from the dark side". right? right. this means that the star forge draws especially from the ds, but it still draws from the force in general. this can also mean ls power. so to put in your senario, the star forge is powered by the force (all fuel), but particularly from ds (oil). even still, it sill draws power from the force in general (random kinds of fuel). so it draws from ds especially, but it is still useable otherwise. sure, production speed is slower, and you don't go "*POOF!* WOOT! instant army!", but it is still a good factory in its own right. production halted when Rakata dissapeared because there were no other force users. not necesarily because there was no ds power. "The living superweapon began corrupting the hearts of the Rakata in order to gain the immense power it required to operate itself." note, it started to corrupt the Rakata's hearts. the Rakata were not super ds right away to begin with. Assuming the Jedi would be willing to work with something they consider an abomination, they would be insufficient from the task. From what is stated in TSL by Goto and Bastila's holocron, the Star Forge went dormant when Malak and Revan left. Even though other darksiders tried to get it to work, it didn't. Why? As the Rakatan computer states, only one who has an immense strength of will and the dark side can make the Forge work. Otherwise, it simply consumes them (Bastila mentions all other Sith who tried to make it work were consumed). okay, so they need to be stong willed. out of many thousand jedi there are definitely some that are quite strong willed. it would still work. the jedi still have fuel (force, btw). Going back to my fuel analogy, think of the Star Forge as a car and Malak and Revan's strength in the dark side as barrels of oil. They'll get it to run, and they'll get it to run for a while. Then picture most other Sith's command of the dark side as tablespoons of oil. Sure, they're the right kind of fuel, but there simply isn't enough of it to get the Forge to run. and think of jedi as electric batteries or some alternate form of car fuel. it might not get the car to run as fast, but hey, it will still work. not to mention that oil pollutes our environment as for the second point of the tablespoons of oil, some jedi can be the same thing, very short life batteries. they should still be able to use it for short amounts of time if they're pretty strong willed, you just have to use it for a short time only, which was the plan in the first place. Since the Jedi Order contained very few people as powerful in the dark side as Revan and Malak, I don't think the "taking turns" idea would work. i don't think you have to be as strong as Revan or Malak to use it. not every Rakata was a force god, but they still got it to work. also see my battery analogy above. Not really... All they'd have to is broadcast Revan's totally unbelievable ideas about the true Sith on the HoloNet, and they'd be more than able to turn him down. Heck, they wouldn't even have to come up with an excuse for saying no. if there's good proof, instead of everyone thinking Revan a moron, they'd go "O_o, *big, collective gasp from half the people in the galaxy* everyone! the sith are gonna attack!" in which case, the news will promptly be spread over the rest of the galaxy. Besides, Revan is a very popular person and his/her word has a lot of weight. people would still at least care to consider what he/she is saying. at any rate, his/her word is a lot better than some corrupt senator. If they grant him power and spend trillions of credits on a giant fleet, they'll be voted out of office... There'll be nothing left for them to save. we're using the star forge. plus, they'd know that saving their life from the sith is more important than their day job. It's moot in any case. They can become extremely unpopular and get voted out of office within several years and get killed eventually (because Revan would be working with the Republic), or they could say no, get killed eventually, but have the added bonus of being able to plunder the system for several more years without inhibit. i guess not. again. My take on that matter is that by then Revan had already fallen so far to the dark side that "saving" the republic by conquering had already become necessary, since it had been woven into what I consider to be his paranoid delusions of the true Sith by then. And of course, he had been completely seduced by his own lust for power, too... ...so he/she's guilty. But did they "leave" him a third of the fleet? I don't know that they did. Revan was a hero, and the Republic had given him a third of the fleet to fight the Mandalorians with, yes, but I don't know that the Republic told him to just go do whatever he wanted, no problem, or anything else along those lines. And as Atton would point out, the loyalty of the soldiers in that fleet would be more loyal to Revan than to the Jedi Order or even the Republic politicians, who stayed at home and did nothing, while Revan and his jedi were out on the frontlines bleeding and dying along with the common soldier. After that it would have been very dangerous to try to order Revan to do anything, since the loyalty would more likely favor him than the Republic. In fact, isn't that exactly what happened? people aren't going to maul a senator to death for asking for most of the fleet back. the fact that Revan was allowed to keep a third of the fleet just for a clean up operation gives Revan a very big excess amount of manpower. in that way, yes, they were "leaving the fleet" to Revan. you know, throughout this disscussion, we've been always talking about whether Revan had credible proof or not, and asking me about good ideas for how the republic is going to defend itself. we've been talking about whether the prosecuter (me) has any winner ideas for defence to prove that Revan is at fault, and we haven't even been talking much about Revan's actual actions, that btw he/she still has to answer for in the first place. i'm still up for disscusion for plans to save the republic, but i want to add a question to the list. so tell me: what was so great about Revan's actions and why does he/she not deserve execution for them? how did the war benefit the republic and the people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Well why are people screaming for Revan's blood over above anyone in KOTOR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 i'm guessing you mean "people" as in "me", right? i think i'm the only person on the prosecution side of this thread. any way, Revan deserves to die because he/she is a mass murdering, torturing, backstabbing schutta that has killed easily 500 times more people than i've seen in my lifetime. ...IMO... EDIT: the reason that nobody in KOTOR wants Revan dead is because redemption is the entire theme of Star Wars. SW isn't SW without redemption. apparently in KOTOR, Carth was the only person in the galaxy that wanted revenge on Revan. what we are disscussing in this thread is whether Revan deserved to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 You just heard a fact. As ridiculous as it may sound, in Star Wars the majority the Senators are corrupt ones. Yes, it's absurd, but that's the way Lucas and the EU writers chose to make it. (Even in KotOR there are a ton of references to how corrupt/ineffective the Senate is) They are ineffective, BUT not corrupt. No word on them being corrupt. You hear a mention in TSL of a faction of senators who are the equvilant of Budget Hawks who want to cut, cut, cut (and who threaten the project of Telos and Dantoonine)...but that's the most of what we learn about politics. The Republic's Senate may have corruption, but how much? I doubt a lot. And it seems that the corruption is minor...they got a huge army, and lots of people seem to back the Republic mindlessly. Which he does not. All he has to offer the Jedi are sources considered downright blasphemous, which make any who read/use them evil and baby-eating Sith who deserve to be executed. Which might be true actually. Revan learnt about the True Sith, Revan turned evil. === ED, I think you fail to realize one thing. Revan tried to destroy the Republic and formed a Sith Empire! And if Revan succeded, taking over the galaxy and then using it to smash the True Sith, then the whole galaxy would have won. But, who cares? Not me. Because it does not matter which Sith Lord takes over the universe...but the Dark Side regins. Revan or the True Sith Lord, I don't care, if they won, then kiss the Republic good bye. Declare the Jedi dead forever. It is due to this crime alone that condemned Revan. Revan is a mass murderer, but so are all Jedi. But why did Revan did what he did? To save the GALAXY, not the Republic. Revan is the equivliant of G0T0 really, turning evil in order to perseve the galaxy...but people hate G0T0, and people hate the Exchange. G0T0 is evil, and he deserves this hate, since he would turn the whole galaxy into some tool. But Revan does the same thing that G0T0 does, and on a larger scale. So, I think Revan should be tried/executed by the Republic, if what you say is true. Because Revan was about to do the greatest crime of all: Destroy the Light Side. And I don't think anyone here (except you and me ) want that. Revan is an idiot and the Republic and the Jedi were right to attack him. He would murder off the Republic in order to create a brand new Sith empire that would follow him to the death...but what's the point afterwards? You have effiency, but it would be the effiecny of Oceania...at best. "Those that give up freedom in return for security deserve neither." ... Jediphile's defense is actually better in that while he admits Revan was evil, he attempts to claim that Revan has 'redeemed' himself and that he deserves no punishment. I do like to point out however of three things: 1) [warning: fallicous logic follows, but I wanted to do something like this] Revan never truly fell. He 'scarficied' himself according to Kreia. If he never fell to the Dark Side, then he never could have been redeemed. In which case, Revan could just be Grey. There are two Grey people in TSL who are part of the evil side for the planets: Vaklu and that Merc Captain. Grey people can do crimes, and they do end up getting punished. Not to mention the many Grey Mandalorians who also happen to be blood-thirsty monsters. If Revan was grey-side, then he never really came out from the Dark Side, and is in full control over his actions. He should get punished for this. 2) How can we hope to deal with the deterrence effect if we don't punish Revan? If we let this happen, then we allow for lots of other Sith Lords to easily sweep through the cracks and avoid punishment, JUST by faking their loss of memory? 3) It is hard to say that Revan himself personally chosen redemeption. Remember he was reprogrammed by the Jedi Masters, and his new reprogrammed personality may have been responsible for choosing Jhunai and Jolee rather than Bastila (after all, the Jedi like loyal people). It seems that his personality may be degrading...otherwise how else did he access the information containing the data about the True Sith he encountered in the past? If his original personality rather than the Jedi's reprogrammed personality starts to reassert himself, we can see this bastard, idiotic self. While it might be wrong to punish the Jedi Masters' personality...it would be okay to punish the original personality of Revan, especially if it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 If Bastila hauled anything other than a husk off the bridge of that ship, then I'd be in agreement. If I did not know about the mindwipe/memory implantation/rebuild, then I would suggest bringing her up on trial for war crimes. And while I'm not in favor of the death penalty, I wouldn't be too sad about Revan being put down. But seeing as numerous references were made in-game that what was pulled off that ship met the criteria for organ donation? Bastila mentions it when you tell her that you can't remember Revan. Yes, she was DS, but if you could recover your memories, she probably would have said so. Vrook also implies it with his "and the Dark Lord should return" comment. He may not trust the new concoction. He may have been all for pulling the plug rather than creating your PC, but it was both butt-covering and implying that <FullName> was legally a different entity - a construct built by the Jedi Council to carry out a mission. (Which brings up another interesting question; had the Endar Spire not been attacked, but the Star Forge found and destroyed, what would become of <fullname>?) The interpetation I go with is that Revan's perfect Jedi detachment allowed her to see people only as numbers and positions - both of which can be easily sacrificed. It wasn't Malachor that corrupted her, the War itself was doing the job (Canderous's comments on Revan's "sacrifices" and goal-oriented thinking, the feint Revan had Exile lead on Dxun, sending those who wouldn't fall with her to Malachor), and this "True Sith" matter just sent it into overdrive. The True Sith is a belief - one kept by those like Kreia, walking the shadows of the galaxy and influencing events. (Ever notice she's the only one who appears to KNOW anything about them?) They were the ones who approached the Mandalorians and sent them to fight in the first place ("The Sith came to us with an offer..."). And Revan? For all we know, Revan BECAME a True Sith - surgical strikes, influence and echoes, and targeted actions rather than the brutality of the Neo-Sith. (Kreia's echoes speech and Diciple's surpressed findings) If one chooses DS, then <Fullname> has stepped into Revan's boots and essentially become Revan II. Same body, not the same mind. Goes to find the teachings of the True Sith to stop being a fake of sorts - to gain the power and knowledge Revan had. If one chooses LS, then Mr. Hyde became Dr. Jekyll and stayed there. New name, new memories, new ID, and a total repudation of her predecessor's tactics (see the Kashyyyk computer). New wine in the old skin with multiple oportunites to say "I'm NOT Revan!" In that case, the True Sith knowledge could have been like the Star Map dreams - half memory and half Force vision. In her zeal to undo all that her murderous former life created, and out of fear that the loved ones who kept her on the straight and narrow would die or worse, she foolishly goes alone. In the case of an LS Revan, execution would be a tragedy. It would be essentially killing an innocent person to satisfy a public thirst for blood. However, politics is an ugly game where people are sacrificed without a second thought, be it our Republic or Lucas's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 if they weren't reliable, then why would he/she risk making war and losing his/her soul over a gamble like that? i said it one and i'll say it again. if Revan was going to go to war, kill and torture a lot of people, and lose his/her soul to the darkside, there must have been some really solid, accurate, trustworthy proof. Revan is a strategist at heart, and he/she would never do something like that over a 40% gamble, not a 50% gamble, and not a 55% gamble. and darkside or not, if there's good proof, the republic and jedi have to buy it. there's no choice. i don't think he/she has fallen yet. didn't he/she fall to the dark side after finding proof because he/she supposedly "had to"? then Revan should be fine. also, people trust Revan! if the people in the senate have a quarter of a brain, they'd do what Revan wants to get on the good side of the people and keep their position. You seem to speculate from the basis that Revan had his "proof" of the true Sith BEFORE he fell to the dark side. Alas, that does not seem to be the case, according to the KotOR2 Chronicles, which were on the official website for TSL. You can't find them there, however, because LA closed the site last year, but the following is a direct quote (since I copy+pasted all the chronicles before they went offline) It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed. Now, this does not mention the true Sith, of course, but Kreia does tell us. Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." Now, this tells me that there was no way Revan could even set foot on Malachor V without falling to the dark side. And since he did not die, he did fall to the dark side at that point. But since the proof of the true Sith came from the Trayus Academy, which lies on Malachor V, it naturally follows that Revan must fall to the dark side before he can even find it, let alone tell anyone about it. Or to quote Kreia again: Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them." Now, it's fairly obvious that the place she is talking about here is Malachor V. It is a place of utter corruption, swirling with the dark side. No jedi can set foot there without being corrupted, and the Trayus Academy is itself an evil place full of forbidden lore. So I do agree with Emperor Deven that the Jedi would have dismissed Revan's "proof" both on the basis that Revan had himself fallen already, and because that proof are "dark texts" that are forbidden to read because they corrupt those who do. Therefore the Jedi would not have read them, and they wouldn't have allowed anyone else to either - they would have destroyed the infection before it could spread, and they would have sensed items from Malachor V a long way off, since it is so powerful with the dark side. Good or bad, Revan would have realised this and not bothered to try, and that's a moot discussion anyway, since he would already have fallen to the dark side. As such, the mere thought of "asking" the pathetic jedi for anything would have been extremely distasteful to him. As for the StarForge, I see it as just the same as the one Ring in LOTR - it's an evil thing and cannot be used for good. Or as Elrond would say, "The Ring is evil. To wield it you would have to BECOME evil. I will not touch it!" The suggestion of letting jedi "take turns" at using the StarForge for a higher and benevolent goal is just the same fallacy that Boromir made, IMHO. Boromir was not evil, but he was seduced by the ring. Why? Because it is human nature to be corrupted by power. That's what the ring represents, and the StarForge does too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.