Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[Nancy Allen``]

So kill the ****! Kill him now! **** redemption, we want Revan dead!

[SilentScope001]

So kill the ****! Kill him now! **** redemption, we want Revan dead!

 

Redemeption implied that Revan has done wrong. ED and you claimed that Revan's actions were justifiable, even praisable, when in fact, it is likely not the case.

 

IMHO, Jediphile is a better and more convicing Defense Adovcate for Revan, as he argues that Revan has done wrong, but that Revan is not the same person as before, and therefore escapes. I disagree with Jediphile on this point, but I think the rest of the Senate, and prehaps other people here, would agree with Jediphile's reasoning and aquit Revan.

[Nancy Allen``]

I'm not defending Revan, not anymore. Kill Revan those who sided with him and let the Republic burn.

[JediMasterJambi]

Revan...Should...NOT...Be...EXECUTED...

[stoffe]

"there is little reason to execute her."??? there's plenty of reasoning behind it. hopefully nobody forgot that Revan is a mass murderer?

 

You may choose to label anyone in military service who's had to kill someone or have a subordinate who has killed someone to be a mass murderer. For obvious reason a nation/union like the Republic cannot subscribe to that form of reasoning if they want to maintain any military forces at all. In the case of warfare killing the enemy is not considered murder by the state. Hence, with the topic "Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic" (and not "by individual citizens of the Republic who has lost someone near and dear during the war and want to peg the blame on someone") in mind, I'd say the Republic has no reason to do so. They would stand to lose more than they would gain from such actions.

 

Besides, the Republic would not be able to legally put Revan on trial anyway since the Jedi Order handles matters or justice regarding their members internally. And the Order would hardly put Revan on trial, much less execute her.

 

Is it really? have we truly just tossed justice into the trash compactor because the winner is supposed to make all the moral ground rules now?

 

There is no justice in war. War is state-sanctioned killing and destruction to achieve a higher goal. A state like the Republic has to concern itself with greater matters than the sense of justice of a group of individual citizens. Their greater responsibility is to provide for the safety of the citizenry as a whole, and keep the state intact. Persecuting your own heroes and leaders for acts they've taken to further the greater good of the state is completely counter-productive to this, and can in the long run even lead to the downfall of the state. There is a difference between an individual sense of justice, and state affairs.

 

"As a parallel, you didn't see Churchill, Roosevelt, Eisenhower or any other leaders or high-ups on the allied side on trial and executed after World War II." but they were fighting for the sake of the world!

 

Revan was doing the same thing, in her own mind. She was fighting to save the world. The difference between treason and revolution is who succeeds in the end. Revan lead a revolution against the corrupt and complacent leadership of the Republic who put its people in grave danger with their negligence. To the Republic she was a traitor and aggressor. It's a matter of perspective, and who writes the history. Regardless Revan switched sides and fought for the Republic instead, greatly aiding their cause and being pivotal in bringing about victory. As said above you don't persecute turncoats and enemy defectors, since that sends a clear signal to others not to bother trying to defect to you in the future.

 

Hitler was killing all the jewish people and making them suffer too, just like Revan!

 

Where did you get that idea? I don't remember ever seeing Revan killing any jewish people, or genociding any other group for that matter purely to further some twisted ideology. Revan is consistently painted as fighting for a very specific goal and taking great pains to avoid unnecessary collateral damage. Wiping out military targets while leaving industry etc alone. A Republic in smoldering ruins would not have benefited Revan's plans.

 

The Republic forces have committed genocide in the past, devastating planets to further their own goals as well. They aren't exactly angels in that regard either. Should they execute their own military and the Jedi Order for these crimes in the name of justice?

 

what was Hitler fighting for? nothing that great, i don't think.

 

That would depend on who you ask. Ask your average German citizen at the time and they would probably tell you he fought to right the injustices imposed upon them after their defeat in World War I, to provide stability in the political chaos experienced after the defeat, to rebuild the economy and industry, to re-establish national self-esteem and make Germany strong and a force to be reckoned with again. Just like the citizens of France/Britain and other countries would consider him the Devil himself whose every action was unspeakably evil. While some of it certainly would be true its not the whole picture, in either case.

 

But this is getting a bit off the topic.

 

the republic was attacked. they had no choice. they had no war like intentions until Revan charged in and started killing.

 

That's usually what happens in a war, rebellion or revolution. One side opposes the current leadership and attempts to get rid of them by force to take over themselves and run things like they believe they should be run.

 

Was the Rebellion wrong to take up arms against the Empire, which only wanted to provide peace and security for its citizens, going by the word of its leader? Are the Rebels pure evil for killing a lot of Imperial citizens in their attempt to further their cause?

 

The Rebellion didn't like the leadership of the Empire and how it was run, so they took up arms to fight it. Revan didn't like the leadership of the Old Republic and how it was run, so she took up arms to fight it. Wherein lies the difference on that level? The "righteousness" of the cause?

 

 

Revan is at fault because:

he/she didn't bother to warn anyone about the threat,

 

We don't know that. She may well have tried to warn the Jedi Council ("we in our eternal wisdom cannot sense it, so you must be imagining things. Shoo!") or the Senate ("This war has already cost enough, we can't act on suspicion alone We see no current threat, no armies looming at our borders. Shoo!"), who most likely in their complacency and short-sightedness did not take the threat seriously, either due to politics or a lack of solid proof. Not that it matters that much in the end.

 

btw, everyone, what's a lynch mob?

 

A band of citizens taking the law into their own hands exacting bloody justice upon an individual they believe is deserving of it, without any trial, due process or state-sanctioned authority.

[EnIgmA_XX]

I'm not defending Revan, not anymore. Kill Revan those who sided with him and let the Republic burn.

 

*concentrates* hm...this is sarcasm, isn't it?...is it?

 

someone tell me i don't know!

 

You may choose to label anyone in military service who's had to kill someone or have a subordinate who has killed someone to be a mass murderer. For obvious reason a nation/union like the Republic cannot subscribe to that form of reasoning if they want to maintain any military forces at all. In the case of warfare killing the enemy is not considered murder by the state. Hence, with the topic "Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic" (and not "by individual citizens of the Republic who has lost someone near and dear during the war and want to peg the blame on someone") in mind, I'd say the Republic has no reason to do so. They would stand to lose more than they would gain from such actions.

 

Besides, the Republic would not be able to legally put Revan on trial anyway since the Jedi Order handles matters or justice regarding their members internally. And the Order would hardly put Revan on trial, much less execute her.

 

title of thread: "Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?"

 

and why did the "military forces" kill? did they have a choice? sometimes you have to join in the fight. what were they fighting for? was it the right thing? were they at least motivated to do so by a good reason?

 

There is no justice in war. War is state-sanctioned killing and destruction to achieve a higher goal. A state like the Republic has to concern itself with greater matters than the sense of justice of a group of individual citizens. Their greater responsibility is to provide for the safety of the citizenry as a whole, and keep the state intact. Persecuting your own heroes and leaders for acts they've taken to further the greater good of the state is completely counter-productive to this, and can in the long run even lead to the downfall of the state. There is a difference between an individual sense of justice, and state affairs.

 

but when you have a chance to get justice and put a sentence on those mass murdering, heartless jerks, should you?

 

and you mean heroes and leaders, not exheroes and leaders, right? as in, not that backstabber, Revan.

 

also, the "group of individual citizens" you are talking about is probably everyone that's lost someone to Revan. as in, like, everyone in the entire galaxy.

 

it's not just an individual sense of justice, stoffe, or at least it shouldn't be. as said earlier, apparently Carth is the only person in the galaxy that hates Revan. everyone else loves him/her.

 

random people: "oh, Revan killed my son, and my brother, and my gizka...but yeah whatever, doesn't matter anymore *hugs Revan*" -what i have shown here is basically the general mood of people after KOTOR. O_o.

 

Revan was doing the same thing, in her own mind. She was fighting to save the world. The difference between treason and revolution is who succeeds in the end. Revan lead a revolution against the corrupt and complacent leadership of the Republic who put its people in grave danger with their negligence. To the Republic she was a traitor and aggressor. It's a matter of perspective, and who writes the history. Regardless Revan switched sides and fought for the Republic instead, greatly aiding their cause and being pivotal in bringing about victory. As said above you don't persecute turncoats and enemy defectors, since that sends a clear signal to others not to bother trying to defect to you in the future.

 

was she? wasn't she already ds? she was working to dominate it. and where did you get all that stuff about her leading a revolution against society?

 

and yeah, you should prosecute turncoats is they've killed millions/billions of people. not doing so is...well, do you think that's just?

 

Where did you get that idea? I don't remember ever seeing Revan killing any jewish people, or genociding any other group for that matter purely to further some twisted ideology. Revan is consistently painted as fighting for a very specific goal and taking great pains to avoid unnecessary collateral damage. Wiping out military targets while leaving industry etc alone. A Republic in smoldering ruins would not have benefited Revan's plans.

 

The Republic forces have committed genocide in the past, devastating planets to further their own goals as well. They aren't exactly angels in that regard either. Should they execute their own military and the Jedi Order for these crimes in the name of justice?

 

jedi, stoffe. mass conversion, torture, and murder.

 

well, were the republic and jedi doing it for the right reasons?

 

That would depend on who you ask. Ask your average German citizen at the time and they would probably tell you he fought to right the injustices imposed upon them after their defeat in World War I, to provide stability in the political chaos experienced after the defeat, to rebuild the economy and industry, to re-establish national self-esteem and make Germany strong and a force to be reckoned with again. Just like the citizens of France/Britain and other countries would consider him the Devil himself whose every action was unspeakably evil. While some of it certainly would be true its not the whole picture, in either case.

 

But this is getting a bit off the topic.

 

okay, so they think they're doing that for the right thing. i dunno about you guys, but i'm cool with that. it just seems to me that you're of the impression that i just say "oh you're the 'bad guy'. you should die!" no, i'm not trying to be that way. i'm examining the genuine goodness in people's motives, amount of people they killed, etc. carefully to determine what is just. just because i want Revan; a mass murdering ds sith lord dead, doesn't mean that i want to kill some random German soldier that thought he/?she? was fighting for the right thing.

 

That's usually what happens in a war, rebellion or revolution. One side opposes the current leadership and attempts to get rid of them by force to take over themselves and run things like they believe they should be run.

 

Was the Rebellion wrong to take up arms against the Empire, which only wanted to provide peace and security for its citizens, going by the word of its leader? Are the Rebels pure evil for killing a lot of Imperial citizens in their attempt to further their cause?

 

The Rebellion didn't like the leadership of the Empire and how it was run, so they took up arms to fight it. Revan didn't like the leadership of the Old Republic and how it was run, so she took up arms to fight it. Wherein lies the difference on that level? The "righteousness" of the cause?

 

"which only wanted to provide peace and security for its citizens, going by the word of its leader?" is this phrase about rebels or empire?

 

"Wherein lies the difference on that level? The "righteousness" of the cause?" that's right. rebels wanted to stop a rasist dictatorship. Revan was trying to take over the republic by conquest because she was twisted by the dark side. i don't know where you got the "stopping the corrupt republic" thing.

 

We don't know that. She may well have tried to warn the Jedi Council ("we in our eternal wisdom cannot sense it, so you must be imagining things. Shoo!") or the Senate ("This war has already cost enough, we can't act on suspicion alone We see no current threat, no armies looming at our borders. Shoo!"), who most likely in their complacency and short-sightedness did not take the threat seriously, either due to politics or a lack of solid proof. Not that it matters that much in the end.

 

there is no proof at all of this. it's all speculation. we've had a few arguments based only on speculation in this thread. the thing is yes anything could've happened. Revan could've sent a letter to a jedi which the Genoharadan then assasinated for no readily identifiable reason. Revan could've had a press conference with the jedi, but nobody bothered to tell post wipe Revan because they never thought it was that important. Revan could've sent Malak to have a conference but he got distracted on the way there when he got drunk at a cantina. anything could've happened. but what is most probable considering that there's no proof at all for any of these claims?

[Jediphile]

*concentrates* hm...this is sarcasm, isn't it?...is it?

 

someone tell me i don't know!

 

No

 

 

 

title of thread: "Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?"

 

and why did the "military forces" kill? did they have a choice? sometimes you have to join in the fight. what were they fighting for? was it the right thing? were they at least motivated to do so by a good reason?[/Quote]

 

How about saving the Republic from the true Sith? That's how Revan rationalized it.

 

but when you have a chance to get justice and put a sentence on those mass murdering, heartless jerks, should you?

 

By the term "those mass murdering, heartless jerks" I think you've answered your own question, because that sure doesn't sound like an objective legal evaluation to me.

 

and you mean heroes and leaders, not exheroes and leaders, right? as in, not that backstabber, Revan.

 

Was Revan a backstabber or was he trying to save the Republic for its own good? You may think the former, but one man's hero is another man's villain and vice versa. Perhaps Revan is neither one.

 

also, the "group of individual citizens" you are talking about is probably everyone that's lost someone to Revan. as in, like, everyone in the entire galaxy.

 

Except, I take it, a very select few group of people who just conveniently happen to be the crowds cheering Revan during the LS ending cutscene of KotOR?

 

it's not just an individual sense of justice, stoffe, or at least it shouldn't be. as said earlier, apparently Carth is the only person in the galaxy that hates Revan. everyone else loves him/her.

 

Fine. Let's take Carth. Good example. Now Carth sure hates Revan, right? I mean, he tries to kill Revan, even after considering the matter just to make certain he isn't acting purely out of revenge and emotion. RIGHT?

 

random people: "oh, Revan killed my son, and my brother, and my gizka...but yeah whatever, doesn't matter anymore *hugs Revan*" -what i have shown here is basically the general mood of people after KOTOR. O_o.

 

Except those people in the crowds cheering Revan on after he destroyed the Starforge and defeated Malak...

 

Btw, I think those are actually the only time we EVER see the "random people" make any sort of general display of what they think of Revan.

 

and yeah, you should prosecute turncoats is they've killed millions/billions of people. not doing so is...well, do you think that's just?

 

I'm still not convinced Revan betrayed the Republic. He turned against the Republic, but it's not the same thing. I mean, Revan and his fleet left for, what, a year or more? Basically they went AWOL. That could be taken as retiring from service, though they'd be guilty of stealing Republic property (their ships). It's not established if there was a formal declaration of war before the Jedi Civil War began, so I don't think there is a basis for calling Revan a backstabber or betrayer, since don't know that he actually abused his position to attack the unsuspecting Republic. And in any event, when a fleet goes AWOL for that long, you should at least be suspicious of its motives if and when it returns. If not, then the Republic deserves no better on the basis of simply being incredibly naive and stupid.

 

Yes, Karath is a betrayer, because he DID abuse the trust others had in him to bomb Telos, but it is not established that the same is true of Revan. Indeed, the jedi had already been going on for years about how they were in violation of the jedi code, etc., so it's not as if the Republic didn't have reasons to be wary.

 

jedi, stoffe. mass conversion, torture, and murder.

 

well, were the republic and jedi doing it for the right reasons?

 

Such actions are either always right or always wrong. I don't care what the reasons are. If you're willing to do it, then you accept that the enemy do it as well. Period. Anything else is, as HK-47 would put it, the highest form of hypocrisy.

 

okay, so they think they're doing that for the right thing. i dunno about you guys, but i'm cool with that. it just seems to me that you're of the impression that i just say "oh you're the 'bad guy'. you should die!" no, i'm not trying to be that way. i'm examining the genuine goodness in people's motives, amount of people they killed, etc. carefully to determine what is just. just because i want Revan; a mass murdering ds sith lord dead, doesn't mean that i want to kill some random German soldier that thought he/?she? was fighting for the right thing.

 

Fine, but then you owe Revan the same consideration. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan was not also an idealist fighting for the cause he believed in.

 

"which only wanted to provide peace and security for its citizens, going by the word of its leader?" is this phrase about rebels or empire?

 

Yes

 

"Wherein lies the difference on that level? The "righteousness" of the cause?" that's right. rebels wanted to stop a rasist dictatorship. Revan was trying to take over the republic by conquest because she was twisted by the dark side. i don't know where you got the "stopping the corrupt republic" thing.

 

Ah, but the rebellion cost how many lives? Which brings us back to Picard's question of "how many people does it take, before it becomes wrong?"

 

You may think the rebels were trying to overthrow a dictator, but bear in mind that Palpatine was elected leader of the Republic and confirmed by the senate as emperor. So is he a dictator or just a skillful politician? Like I said, one man's hero is another man's villain, and while I would not characterize Vader as a hero, he does have reasons for his actions. Or as he says to Luke: "Let us end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!"

 

Revan's argument would be that this is necessary to protect the Republic from the true Sith in the long run, because if he doesn't do this, then the Republic is doomed, and he will not allow that to happen. Sure, we can argue if that is correct or not, but that doesn't change whether that makes Revan's argument valid or not.

 

there is no proof at all of this. it's all speculation. we've had a few arguments based only on speculation in this thread. the thing is yes anything could've happened. Revan could've sent a letter to a jedi which the Genoharadan then assasinated for no readily identifiable reason. Revan could've had a press conference with the jedi, but nobody bothered to tell post wipe Revan because they never thought it was that important. Revan could've sent Malak to have a conference but he got distracted on the way there when he got drunk at a cantina. anything could've happened. but what is most probable considering that there's no proof at all for any of these claims?

 

Okay. Fine. But it is just as reasonable an argument as your claim that Revan did nothing to warn the Republic of the true Sith. There is no evidence of that either. None. I'll drop the "Revan might have tried to warn the Republic" bit, but only if you drop the "Revan never tried to warn anybody" line too. If you insist, however, then the counterargument is just as valid.

[Emperor Devon]

If the whole war was against the Jedi, why didn't Revan lead a lynch mob against the Jedi?

 

Because the war was against the true Sith, and the Jedi (and the Republic) were bothers he had to get rid of. Supposing he managed to kill all the Jedi, the Senate would still control the galaxy and the bureaucracy would remain the same as ever.

 

That's supposing he could even have a lynch mob capable of killing of tens of thousands of people across quite a few planets... The Jedi are extremely formidable fighters in their own right, and that's supposing the Republic military doesn't try to stop that many people from being slaughtered. No government would abide mobs that kill others by the thousands.

 

Senators are corrupt idiots? Fine. Why didn't Revan bribe them? Or use Force Persuade on some of the most powerful Senators?

 

Making a Senator say "Here's fifty credits" with waving your arm is one thing, taking over his life and turning him into what's essentially a human robot is another.

 

Unless Revan could field enough credits to allow dozens of Senators to live out their lives in luxury, I don't think bribery is possible. Getting a Senator to vote for a law on health care is one matter, getting him to create an extraordinarily expensive and unpopular bill is another.

 

How about looting them from the True Sith then? Here, we assume the True Sith controls an Empire with many planets...

 

In essence, you're proposing that Revan attack several star systems without any form of food, ammunition, or fuel? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

 

The more powerful Revan's fleet is the more resources he will need to support it. If he has thousands of ships he would have to raid a lot of planets, which would be far from sufficient. It's much easier to get resources if they're produced on your own planets at a steady and even pace rather than stealing them from somewhere else and possibly damaging them in the process. And that's not even getting into how those resources wouldn't be concentrated on one planet, and would likely be spread across a multitude of ones in various degrees... That's practically a campaign of it's own there, which would require immense numbers of ships and resources to pull off.

 

Oh wait, I forgot! He wouldn't have the resources to pull that off with. Scratch that idea.

 

Take the tactics of the Mandalorians and adopt it. Start off with a huge army and then take over a planet.

 

The Mandalorians were raiding individual, weak planets likely with few alliances and ties to anyone who could stop them. The true Sith are a vast empire that will respond if there planets are attacked - those are completely different situations. Even then you'll be able to produce more resources on thousands of your own planets (aka a conquered Republic) than you'll be able to by raiding dozens of someone else's (which as I explained earlier is impossible to do anyway).

 

The "True Sith Civil War" also would be a good Card to play, with Revan claiming to be a True Sith Lord,

 

As there is no evidence to support the fan theory of a true Sith civil war it has no merit in this debate.

 

(he seems to have a general knowledge of where it is located according to what we know in the end of TSL),

 

All we know is that he's in their empire. Whether he's been traveling to dozens of planets, is grounded on one, or any other things like that is entirely unknown.

 

And, returning to the original point: I doubt the citizens of this galaxy would like to be enslaved by ANYONE, True Sith or Revan.

 

That's why you have lots of ships and armed troops do the enslaving, which as far as I know is rarely a thing entered into voluntarily.

 

Like or not, it's for their own good. Lose millions of people at the hands of Revan or trillions at the hands of the true Sith. I'd take the former any day.

 

@EnIgmA_XX: How would you propose Revan go about winning the war against the true Sith without the Star Forge?

[GarfieldJL]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the crimes against noncombatants were ordered by Malek not Revan. The most the Republic had on Revan was duking it out out with the military, killing off key figures, etc. Remember Telos was ordered by Malek, not Revan as was Taris.

 

 

Also Revan effectively died so to speak when Malek betrayed him, the Republic would be executing someone else that happened to be in Revan's body.

[SilentScope001]

Because the war was against the true Sith, and the Jedi (and the Republic) were bothers he had to get rid of. Supposing he managed to kill all the Jedi, the Senate would still control the galaxy and the bureaucracy would remain the same as ever.

 

That's supposing he could even have a lynch mob capable of killing of tens of thousands of people across quite a few planets... The Jedi are extremely formidable fighters in their own right, and that's supposing the Republic military doesn't try to stop that many people from being slaughtered. No government would abide mobs that kill others by the thousands.

 

By this, I would mean having Revan getting the aid of the Jedi that defected to him and getting the aid of the Republic in order to destroy the Jedi. The Republic would agree to Revan, after all, the Jedi did do nothing according to the Republic, so they do deserve the punishment.

 

But the destruction of the Republic is something key. Justifiying the destruction of the Republic to create a dictatorship that will last forever...no. No that will not work. I think many people in the Republic, Carth included, would rather have the ineffective Senate rather than an effective dictator.

 

In essence, you're proposing that Revan attack several star systems without any form of food, ammunition, or fuel? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

 

Revan already got food, ammunation, and fuel from his Mandalorian campagin. He used the excuse of "hunting down the last of the Mandalorians" to take his own troops into the Unknown Regions, and therefore got supplies for that.

 

Revan already have a supply to start off his military campagin, and Revan should be able to attack the True Sith and do some damage, slowly expanding. If Revan cannot do something like that, then I doubt Revan's competence.

 

As there is no evidence to support the fan theory of a true Sith civil war it has no merit in this debate.

 

I used it as an example of a tactic Revan can use in battling the True Sith.

 

That's why you have lots of ships and armed troops do the enslaving, which as far as I know is rarely a thing entered into voluntarily.

 

Like or not, it's for their own good. Lose millions of people at the hands of Revan or trillions at the hands of the true Sith. I'd take the former any day.

 

Revan had other ways of dealing with the situation, and he should have chosen it instead of trying to destroy the Republic and enslave everyone.

 

It's not in their own best interest. Not at all. Why is that?

 

Because what makes you think that Revan is going to destroy his Sith Empire once the True Sith is smashed? Nothing. Revan wants to keep that Empire up and running, possibly forever so that the galaxy remains stable. But it will not remain free, and in fact, since the ideology is Sith, trillions will die, sooner or later, due to the Sith civil wars and the Sith in-fighting that will be common inside of Revan's Sith Empire.

 

You save the galaxy at the heart of destroying the Light Side of the Force. And in the end, that's the only thing that really mattered.

 

Realize that there is a counter-argument to Revan's tactics. They may be...well, evil. Though, it might be best to, well, not talk about this anymore. We already learn each other's viewpoints, and I believe that, well, we already covered all the points about Revan's guilt/innocence/etc.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the crimes against noncombatants were ordered by Malek not Revan.

 

Actually, incorrect. Telos was bombarded under orders from Revan, as in cut content from Kreia, stating that Revan wanted to blow up Telos, a planet that would act as a Plan B for the Jedi Order to flee to, to show the Jedi Order that they cannot run away from the might of Revan's Sith Empire. Not to mention that Revan was responsible for killing off his own men in the Battle of Malachor V.

[GarfieldJL]

The content was cut for a reason, it contradicted Canderous Ordo's statement about who ordered the destruction of Telos. Also it didn't make sense cause Revan avoided Dantooine.

[EnIgmA_XX]

How about saving the Republic from the true Sith? That's how Revan rationalized it.

 

are you sure? because i remember quite clearly you saying awhile back that Revan was corrupted and ds during the JCW time period as part of your arguments. you're contradicting yourself.

 

By the term "those mass murdering, heartless jerks" I think you've answered your own question, because that sure doesn't sound like an objective legal evaluation to me.

 

?can you explain this?

 

Was Revan a backstabber or was he trying to save the Republic for its own good? You may think the former, but one man's hero is another man's villain and vice versa. Perhaps Revan is neither one.

 

and again, i do think that i remember quite clearly you saying that Revan was the villan. oh, here i found some quotes:

 

DS Revan is guilty, yes. LS Revan committed them, but was corrupted during his attempt to save the Republic from the Mandalorians and has since redeemed himself. So even if it is decided he deserves punishment, the death sentence is too harsh.

 

so Revan was corrupted you say.

 

Now, this tells me that there was no way Revan could even set foot on Malachor V without falling to the dark side. And since he did not die, he did fall to the dark side at that point. But since the proof of the true Sith came from the Trayus Academy, which lies on Malachor V, it naturally follows that Revan must fall to the dark side before he can even find it, let alone tell anyone about it.

 

and so Revan was corrupted when setting foot on Mal V, so how in the world is Revan supposed to have good intentions when ds?

 

Good or bad, Revan would have realised this and not bothered to try, and that's a moot discussion anyway, since he would already have fallen to the dark side. As such, the mere thought of "asking" the pathetic jedi for anything would have been extremely distasteful to him.

 

My take on that matter is that by then Revan had already fallen so far to the dark side that "saving" the republic by conquering had already become necessary, since it had been woven into what I consider to be his paranoid delusions of the true Sith by then. And of course, he had been completely seduced by his own lust for power, too...

 

hm, lust for power you say? sry Jediphile but your posts 2 pages ago flatly contradict everything that has been said by stoffe (with the good guy revolution idea) and yourself.

 

Except, I take it, a very select few group of people who just conveniently happen to be the crowds cheering Revan during the LS ending cutscene of KotOR?

 

but just after this point i proceed to talk about how everyone in sw just happens to be super forgiving for no justifiable reason, so i'm right with you.

 

Fine. Let's take Carth. Good example. Now Carth sure hates Revan, right? I mean, he tries to kill Revan, even after considering the matter just to make certain he isn't acting purely out of revenge and emotion. RIGHT?

 

no, because he's a sw char. and the silent rule is that sw chars are always forgiving. this makes Carth a biased example. i only used him because of his original feelings and motives, which of couse were turned right around at the end of the game because of the silent rule.

 

Except those people in the crowds cheering Revan on after he destroyed the Starforge and defeated Malak...

 

Btw, I think those are actually the only time we EVER see the "random people" make any sort of general display of what they think of Revan.

 

specifically, those people in the crowds cheering Revan on after he destroyed the Starforge and defeated Malak. where do you think i got the "oh, Revan killed my son, and my brother, and my gizka...but yeah whatever, doesn't matter anymore *hugs Revan*" idea? how many people in that crowd do you think lost someone to Revan? now, how many of them are booing at Revan? 0. so weird...

 

I'm still not convinced Revan betrayed the Republic. He turned against the Republic, but it's not the same thing. I mean, Revan and his fleet left for, what, a year or more? Basically they went AWOL. That could be taken as retiring from service, though they'd be guilty of stealing Republic property (their ships). It's not established if there was a formal declaration of war before the Jedi Civil War began, so I don't think there is a basis for calling Revan a backstabber or betrayer, since don't know that he actually abused his position to attack the unsuspecting Republic. And in any event, when a fleet goes AWOL for that long, you should at least be suspicious of its motives if and when it returns. If not, then the Republic deserves no better on the basis of simply being incredibly naive and stupid.

 

Yes, Karath is a betrayer, because he DID abuse the trust others had in him to bomb Telos, but it is not established that the same is true of Revan. Indeed, the jedi had already been going on for years about how they were in violation of the jedi code, etc., so it's not as if the Republic didn't have reasons to be wary.

 

it would make sense that they are gone for that long, wars don't last for 3 hours, even just clean up jobs.

 

"the Republic deserves no better on the basis of simply being incredibly naive and stupid." so we beat people down becase they trust their heroes now, huh? if i'm a little kid and i think Spiderman is my hero, and in the third movie he goes evil, is it my fault for believing in him in the first place?

 

Such actions are either always right or always wrong. I don't care what the reasons are. If you're willing to do it, then you accept that the enemy do it as well. Period. Anything else is, as HK-47 would put it, the highest form of hypocrisy.

 

HK-50, actually.

 

"Such actions are either always right or always wrong. I don't care what the reasons are."

 

Revan was corrupted because he sacrificed everything to the service of defending the Republic and its people, even as the jedi - its vaunted defenders- did nothing and just let the Republic hemorrhage innocent populations. Even if Revan is guilty, that MUST be considered.

 

what is this? under your point of view, then, Revan should die, cause reasons don't matter. no. intentions, Jediphile, intentions. i'll give a "let" to this contradiction, but i want you to accept my argument that intentions do actually count when commiting crimes. now, if the republic commited mass murder with bad intent, then they should be held accountable for their actions. but we're not talking about them, we're talking about Revan.

 

Fine, but then you owe Revan the same consideration. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan was not also an idealist fighting for the cause he believed in.

 

there is evidence. Revan was ds.

 

Ah, but the rebellion cost how many lives? Which brings us back to Picard's question of "how many people does it take, before it becomes wrong?"

 

You may think the rebels were trying to overthrow a dictator, but bear in mind that Palpatine was elected leader of the Republic and confirmed by the senate as emperor. So is he a dictator or just a skillful politician? Like I said, one man's hero is another man's villain, and while I would not characterize Vader as a hero, he does have reasons for his actions. Or as he says to Luke: "Let us end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!"

 

Revan's argument would be that this is necessary to protect the Republic from the true Sith in the long run, because if he doesn't do this, then the Republic is doomed, and he will not allow that to happen. Sure, we can argue if that is correct or not, but that doesn't change whether that makes Revan's argument valid or not.

 

it's wrong if your intentions suck. and if you kill more people than necesary. and if you kill people, you should still be held acountable, though considerably less so than if you had bad intent.

 

and Palpatine was a good politician. then he got the opening he was waiting for and became a good dictator (btw i mean good as in good at crushing all resistance. 'till the rebels of course )

 

and Vader also says "join the dark side!" or something like that. so his intentions aren't as pure as you make them seem.

 

and once more, Revan was ds, so he/she had no decent intentions.

 

Okay. Fine. But it is just as reasonable an argument as your claim that Revan did nothing to warn the Republic of the true Sith. There is no evidence of that either. None. I'll drop the "Revan might have tried to warn the Republic" bit, but only if you drop the "Revan never tried to warn anybody" line too. If you insist, however, then the counterargument is just as valid.

 

stoffe is part of this argument, too, so i need to wait for a response from her.

 

@EnIgmA_XX: How would you propose Revan go about winning the war against the true Sith without the Star Forge?

 

i've no idea. and how do you propose Revan attacking the republic using the star forge was a good idea in the first place?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the crimes against noncombatants were ordered by Malek not Revan. The most the Republic had on Revan was duking it out out with the military, killing off key figures, etc. Remember Telos was ordered by Malek, not Revan as was Taris.

 

and Malak's superior is...?

 

plus, how do you know Revan was only attacking the military and didn't harm any innocents in the process?

 

Also it didn't make sense cause Revan avoided Dantooine.

 

Revan might've avoided Dantooine because of 4 masters being there and the place crawling with jedi. sure you can kill 'em, but Revan wants them alive so he/she can make their lives miserable. it'd be hard to do this with all the jedi on Dantooine. oh yeah, and i also completely forgot, the sith didn't even know about Dantooine until much later!

[SilentScope001]

Revan might've avoided Dantooine because of 4 masters being there and the place crawling with jedi. sure you can kill 'em, but Revan wants them alive so he/she can make their lives miserable. it'd be hard to do this with all the jedi on Dantooine. oh yeah, and i also completely forgot, the sith didn't even know about Dantooine until much later!

 

Sure they do.

 

Revan and Malak found the first Star Map on Dantoonine. They were Jedi Padawans trained over there in Dantoonie. TA blames this on Bioware being big idiots for stating that the "Sith doesn't even know about Dantoonie" because they did, and then used it to claim that Bioware's story is just overrated.

 

Okay, so why did Malak not attack Dantoonie? Simple. Bioware wanted to build up tension, and so sort of forgotten that Malak knew about Dantoonie and having Jedi over there. It's a big plot hole that Bioware accidently made. Sometimes, developers do make mistakes, there is no huge conspiracy or hidden story.

[EnIgmA_XX]

oh, that's odd. well, they still didn't know, i guess. otherwise they would've attacked. they must've forgotten somehow, like they got Alzheimers or something.

[Jediphile]

are you sure? because i remember quite clearly you saying awhile back that Revan was corrupted and ds during the JCW time period as part of your arguments. you're contradicting yourself.

 

I don't think I do. Revan was DS at this point, sure, but that doesn't mean that he can't rationalize what he does on the basis of some greater good. Heck, even Vader and Palpatine believe they are the good guys, according to Lucas, so why not Darth Revan? I mean, Vader believes that the rebellion must be crushed, since the conflict is too destructive to the galaxy. Revan believes he must take control of the republic and enforce a dictatorship in order to prepare the republic and save it from the true Sith. See? You can almost always justify and/or rationalize pretty much any action or belief, not matter how evil it may seem to others. How is that contradiction?

 

?can you explain this?

 

If you call someone "those mass murdering, heartless jerks", then it seems pretty evident to me that you've already dismissed the idea that the people you refer to might have legitimate or at least compelling motives for what they do.

 

and again, i do think that i remember quite clearly you saying that Revan was the villan. oh, here i found some quotes:

 

so Revan was corrupted you say.

 

Yes, but that's an evaluation on my part. I've never agreed with those who believed - as Kreia suggests - that Revan just "wore the mask of the Dark Lord of the Sith" as if it was just some role he could abandon whenever he chose. Revan did plenty of vile things as the dark lord that are not so easy to explain away in a compelling manner. However, there is a difference between how I evaluate Revan and how Revan sees himself, and obviously Revan would not do something he thinks is wrong just because he's turned evil - that's the "black hat villain"-behaviour, where the villain does something only to prove in the plot how evil he really is, while there is no compelling basis for it logically. Malak falls into this category in KotOR at times, but Revan does not, because his motives were never explored in the first game - you didn't need to know them, just that you were Revan and had done bad things - but only in TSL, where the motives of the key characters (including Revan) were taken far more seriously in the plot.

 

and so Revan was corrupted when setting foot on Mal V, so how in the world is Revan supposed to have good intentions when ds?

 

They were "good" from his own perspective, because he rationalized that they all served the higher goal of saving the Republic from the true Sith. Is it a reasonable take on things? No, not necessarily, and I even agree that it's not, but that doesn't mean that Revan did not see it as such. In fact, Revan must see it the other way, since otherwise all his sacrifices are in vain, and he must then accept that - like Anakin - he has simply become the very thing he swore to destroy. Few are willing - or able - to do that.

 

hm, lust for power you say? sry Jediphile but your posts 2 pages ago flatly contradict everything that has been said by stoffe (with the good guy revolution idea) and yourself.

 

Given that we're talking (or at least I am) about LS Revan here, you must take into consideration that Revan's motives are not the same throughout the entire plot. His motives as Darth Revan are naturally not the same as they are after he has lost his memories and returned to the light. According to the chronicles, Revan should have died on Malachor V, consumed by its dark side energies, yet he was able to feed on them and survive, though only by succumbing to the dark side and becoming evil. But makes sense to me that he would try to hold onto something that would prevent his complete corruption or at least attempt so. That goal is probably the preservation of the Republic, because holding onto that does not run contrary to giving in to the dark side. But of course, even though Revan can hold onto that, the dark side will still twist and pervert the goal, so that Revan ends up trying to destroy the Republic in order to save it. And as a Sith he gains a taste for power as he begins to build it. Power corrupts, they say, and it is probably true for Revan as well.

 

no, because he's a sw char. and the silent rule is that sw chars are always forgiving. this makes Carth a biased example. i only used him because of his original feelings and motives, which of couse were turned right around at the end of the game because of the silent rule.

 

Yes, well Revan is also a sw character, and we're talking about the sw universe, so I don't think it's so insignificant. IMHO we cannot argue this scenario on a real world basis, since we're talking about Star Wars and not the real world - there are no starships, lightsabers, Sith, or - very importantly - jedi or the force in the real world, and the latter are fairly important to this discussion.

 

specifically, those people in the crowds cheering Revan on after he destroyed the Starforge and defeated Malak. where do you think i got the "oh, Revan killed my son, and my brother, and my gizka...but yeah whatever, doesn't matter anymore *hugs Revan*" idea? how many people in that crowd do you think lost someone to Revan? now, how many of them are booing at Revan? 0. so weird...

 

I didn't see any of them carry grudges or even be ambivalent about Revan, so I'll just let that speak for itself.

 

it would make sense that they are gone for that long, wars don't last for 3 hours, even just clean up jobs.

 

"the Republic deserves no better on the basis of simply being incredibly naive and stupid." so we beat people down becase they trust their heroes now, huh? if i'm a little kid and i think Spiderman is my hero, and in the third movie he goes evil, is it my fault for believing in him in the first place?[/Quote]

 

No, but that's not the case here. Revan left with his entire fleet. Judging by how Carth puts it, without any explanation or warning. They just left. Period. Now, being a military commander at the time, this is not a good sign. Even as a commander, it's a bad sign if you just suddenly ignore your superiors and drop off the map with never a word. A comparison with Colonel Kurtz in Coppola's "Apocalypse Now" would seem fairly obvious to me at this point. And what did the superiors do in that movie? They sent in another soldier to KILL Kurtz rather than have him remain rogue. Granted, there are differences in that they knew Kurtz had gone mad, while the Republic didn't know that about Revan or even where he had gone, but otherwise the situation is not too dissimilar.

 

what is this? under your point of view, then, Revan should die, cause reasons don't matter. no. intentions, Jediphile, intentions. i'll give a "let" to this contradiction, but i want you to accept my argument that intentions do actually count when commiting crimes. now, if the republic commited mass murder with bad intent, then they should be held accountable for their actions. but we're not talking about them, we're talking about Revan.

 

Intentions matter very, very little. They can be relevant to consider, but in the end, you must judge on the basis of what people did, and not what they said or even thought, because - as I said above - you can rationalize almost anything. I would classify Revan's fall to the DS as similar to "temporary insanity", however, and so there are extenuating circumstances in his case. Besides, it is unfair and a miscarriage of justice if you insist on looking ONLY at what Revan alone did, when he was let to the point of his corruption in no small part due to the criminally negligent behaviour of the jedi order itself. By their inaction they forced Revan into doing what he did and set him on the path that he ended up on. Denying that is a pervertion of justice IMHO.

 

there is evidence. Revan was ds.

 

Has anyone died that? He was Darth Revan. Of course he was DS.

 

it's wrong if your intentions suck. and if you kill more people than necesary. and if you kill people, you should still be held acountable, though considerably less so than if you had bad intent.

 

and Palpatine was a good politician. then he got the opening he was waiting for and became a good dictator (btw i mean good as in good at crushing all resistance. 'till the rebels of course )

 

and Vader also says "join the dark side!" or something like that. so his intentions aren't as pure as you make them seem.

 

Except you cannot equal DS with "evil" in the Star Wars universe itself. Again, Vader believes that he is serving and protecting the greater good, even if this forces him to take evil actions at times. Same thing with Darth Revan.

 

and once more, Revan was ds, so he/she had no decent intentions.

 

We can't know that. Indeed, I would think otherwise, because the one thing that seems consistent for Revan throughout it all is that he is trying to save the Republic, or at least what he considers to be the Republic. First from the Mandalorians and the negligence of the jedi order, then from the true Sith and the Republic's own complacency. Even if Revan was not a good boy at this point, there was still method to his madness.

 

plus, how do you know Revan was only attacking the military and didn't harm any innocents in the process?

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

[Emperor Devon]

How would you propose Revan go about winning the war against the true Sith without the Star Forge?

 

i've no idea.

 

Then why are you condemning Revan's actions? You've just conceded you don't know how he would win win the war without it, and you admitted earlier that it can only be used by darksiders. Following your logic the only thing he could do is lose to the true Sith.

 

@SilentScope: I'll get to your points in a bit.

[SilentScope001]

Then why are you condemning Revan's actions? You've just conceded you don't know how he would win win the war without it, and you admitted earlier that it can only be used by darksiders. Following your logic the only thing he could do is lose to the true Sith.

 

And that's a bad thing because?

 

Jediphile is a pretty ardent Kantian, and while I may disagree with Kant (which is why I offered my military plan for destroying the True Sith), you might offend Jediphile with this belief and defense of Revan here. You are supposed to do the good thing BECAUSE it is the good thing, regardless of the consquences. Doing a bad thing because of 'good' consquences does not absolve you of the crime. If doing the good thing is not falling to the Dark Side, and letting the True Sith take over, then you have done the right thing.

 

One of Kant's catogerical imperatives is to treat people as an ends, not as a means. Using his troops to enslave the Republic is defeiently using people as a means, in order to achieve an end which is "protection of the Republic".

 

And why let the people die? Well, people are going to die anyway, right, even if you do something? And if you do something, you'll fall to the Dark Side and do evil things, enslaving the galaxy. If you do nothing, you will not fall, and while the True Sith does much damage, at least there will still be the Light Side and the ability for people to do good. The Light Side is far more important.

 

[And what makes you think the True Sith would actually invade the Republic and kill off billions of citizens? I think all they really would desire is to just murder off the Jedi. Remember, it is the Jedi, not the Republic, that kicked the original Dark Jedi out of their Order, and the Dark Jedi vowed revenge. Once the Jedi are dead, then they can easily take over the Republic and won't have to murder off a lot of people in order to do so. If all the True Sith was interested in was getting rid of the Jedi, then have Revan accidently...or purposefully done the goal of the True Sith?

 

Another theory: What if Revan wanted to be a Double-Agent? What if Revan really joined up with the True Sith, and conquered the whole Republic for the True Sith forces? But it is a 'scarfice'...why? Maybe because Revan thought that he could betray the True Sith from within...or, and here's the horror: Revan thought that if the galaxy fell to the True Sith, less men would die.]

[Nancy Allen``]

Who gives a **** what happens to the Republic? Put Revan to death, that's all anyone should care about.

[Masgrtgr]

Who gives a **** that Revan commited treason and killed billons. Let's pretend all that didn't happen and just let Revan off with a slap on the wrist.

[Nancy Allen``]

Nup, kill the murdering piece of **** and if the Republic burns without him to defend it all the better, it'll add to the punishment.

[Jediphile]

Uhm... I realise it sounds odd coming from me, but could we scale down the "ironic" comments a bit?

 

While I don't feel offended by any of them, I also don't think they further the discussion much...

[SilentScope001]

Who gives a **** that Revan commited treason and killed billons. Let's pretend all that didn't happen and just let Revan off with a slap on the wrist.

 

Actually, I think I would be happy with a slap on the wrist.

 

At least Revan would get punished.

[EnIgmA_XX]

I don't think I do. Revan was DS at this point, sure, but that doesn't mean that he can't rationalize what he does on the basis of some greater good. Heck, even Vader and Palpatine believe they are the good guys, according to Lucas, so why not Darth Revan? I mean, Vader believes that the rebellion must be crushed, since the conflict is too destructive to the galaxy. Revan believes he must take control of the republic and enforce a dictatorship in order to prepare the republic and save it from the true Sith. See? You can almost always justify and/or rationalize pretty much any action or belief, not matter how evil it may seem to others. How is that contradiction?

 

yes, i suppose you're right about the ds but twistedly good intentions thing. hm, i've never viewed it in that fashion. but even still, as you say yourself later in the post, power corrupts, and i bet that Revan's motives weren't even close to always being that great.

 

If you call someone "those mass murdering, heartless jerks", then it seems pretty evident to me that you've already dismissed the idea that the people you refer to might have legitimate or at least compelling motives for what they do.

 

yes, i have. lemme tell you why now. i did say earlier that intentions mean a lot, right? but what else did i say?

 

it's wrong if your intentions suck. and if you kill more people than necesary.

 

note the "if you kill more people than necesary." how many people did Revan kill unnecesarily? a lot. actually, everyone that died in the JCW died unnecesarily, because Revan, with his/her twisted mind and supposedly wonderful intentions crushed the republic and a lot of people in it. so that makes Revan guilty in my eyes. the only way you could change my mind is if you proved to me that nobody died in the JCW, which is impossible, or if the JCW was necessary/was a good thing. you can also toss Vader and Palpatine in that group. so yes, while you're right about the intent, you are wrong about making me change my mind any time soon.

 

Yes, well Revan is also a sw character, and we're talking about the sw universe, so I don't think it's so insignificant. IMHO we cannot argue this scenario on a real world basis, since we're talking about Star Wars and not the real world - there are no starships, lightsabers, Sith, or - very importantly - jedi or the force in the real world, and the latter are fairly important to this discussion.

 

we are talking about the sw universe but adding real world court rules. if we were arguing based on sw court rules aka redemption always wins, this disscussion would've been over on the 4th post. but no, on real world court rules redemption doesn't win, so you con't argue using Carth as a helper.

 

I didn't see any of them carry grudges or even be ambivalent about Revan, so I'll just let that speak for itself.

 

exactly. the silent rule. redemption in sw is indisputable. but again, we're arguing on real world court.

 

No, but that's not the case here. Revan left with his entire fleet. Judging by how Carth puts it, without any explanation or warning. They just left. Period. Now, being a military commander at the time, this is not a good sign. Even as a commander, it's a bad sign if you just suddenly ignore your superiors and drop off the map with never a word. A comparison with Colonel Kurtz in Coppola's "Apocalypse Now" would seem fairly obvious to me at this point. And what did the superiors do in that movie? They sent in another soldier to KILL Kurtz rather than have him remain rogue. Granted, there are differences in that they knew Kurtz had gone mad, while the Republic didn't know that about Revan or even where he had gone, but otherwise the situation is not too dissimilar.

 

Revan left to clean up the Mandalorians. that's a perfectly good reason. i think i remember Carth saying that they attacked without warning. the case still stands though. Revan was the republic's hero. you can't blame them for trusting him/her. Revan abused that.

 

Intentions matter very, very little. They can be relevant to consider, but in the end, you must judge on the basis of what people did, and not what they said or even thought, because - as I said above - you can rationalize almost anything. I would classify Revan's fall to the DS as similar to "temporary insanity", however, and so there are extenuating circumstances in his case. Besides, it is unfair and a miscarriage of justice if you insist on looking ONLY at what Revan alone did, when he was let to the point of his corruption in no small part due to the criminally negligent behaviour of the jedi order itself. By their inaction they forced Revan into doing what he did and set him on the path that he ended up on. Denying that is a pervertion of justice IMHO.

 

you don't know that the jedi order was ignorant because we don't know if Revan went to the jedi council to warn them about the true sith attack. since we don't know anything on this point your point can't be used. as well, Revan could've turned back from the dark side at any time. it's Revan's fault for continually bombarding the republic.

 

Except you cannot equal DS with "evil" in the Star Wars universe itself. Again, Vader believes that he is serving and protecting the greater good, even if this forces him to take evil actions at times. Same thing with Darth Revan.

 

i can't believe that you're trying to argue that the ds is not evil. this is just like your argument that the jedi are evil. Jediphile, it's called the "dark side". Vader takes evil actions at times? he takes evil actions all the time. name one good thing that he did after his fall and before his redemption. do the same thing for Darth Revan. plus, i thought you said intentions don't mean dirt to you.

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

but what about Telos and other planets? sure Malak bombed some of them, but who's his master? who turned Malak ds? and finally, who started this crazy war?

 

Then why are you condemning Revan's actions? You've just conceded you don't know how he would win win the war without it, and you admitted earlier that it can only be used by darksiders. Following your logic the only thing he could do is lose to the true Sith.

 

of course i don't know how to win, ED! i'm not a master strategist like Revan. why do you keep expecting me to come up with some crazy idea that is supposed to make a master strategist fall to his/her knees and say "OMG! hail Enigma, the uber strategist! i was wrong this whole time!" no ED. if you gave me a tank and a squad of riflemen and told me to use them to defeat 4 squads of riflemen and a tank 3 times bigger than the one i have, i wouldn't be able to do it. both you and me would be foolhardy to think anything else.

 

but despite your efforts, ED, i've noticed that you've been hiding from my question. while i'm not a master strategist, nobody has as of yet told me how Revan attacking the republic was a good strategic move. for goodness sakes, i could be Revan and say "okay guys, i don't really know what to do so we're just going to dig in and try to defend against the attack." and you know what, ED? it still would've been a better plan than deciding to tear the republic apart. so again:

 

how do you propose Revan attacking the republic using the star forge was a good idea in the first place?

[Jediphile]

yes, i suppose you're right about the ds but twistedly good intentions thing. hm, i've never viewed it in that fashion. but even still, as you say yourself later in the post, power corrupts, and i bet that Revan's motives weren't even close to always being that great.

 

Yes, but is exactly how power corrupts - by twisting your goals into something perverted. And then you begin to rationalize... Remember what the road to Hell is paved with?

 

note the "if you kill more people than necesary." how many people did Revan kill unnecesarily? a lot. actually, everyone that died in the JCW died unnecesarily, because Revan, with his/her twisted mind and supposedly wonderful intentions crushed the republic and a lot of people in it. so that makes Revan guilty in my eyes.

 

Revan didn't kill all of those people so you can't blame him for all of it. And if you're going to argue that it's his fault for leading them, then I'm going to argue that the jedi order forced onto a path that let to him falling to the dark side when the flat-out refused to fight in the Mandalorian Wars and even forbade jedi to help, but just decided to sit and watch while the outer rim burned. Revan and Malak could not bear that. They had to act. And that cost them their souls, since it let to their eventual fall to the dark side. That would not have happened if only the masters had let jedi order do what it's supposed to be doing and protect the republic.

 

the only way you could change my mind is if you proved to me that nobody died in the JCW, which is impossible, or if the JCW was necessary/was a good thing. you can also toss Vader and Palpatine in that group. so yes, while you're right about the intent, you are wrong about making me change my mind any time soon.

 

I won't bother trying to change your mind, because I know I can't. Only you can do that. I can try to point out why I feel differently, but it's your choice and not mine whether you choose to listen to it.

 

we are talking about the sw universe but adding real world court rules. if we were arguing based on sw court rules aka redemption always wins, this disscussion would've been over on the 4th post. but no, on real world court rules redemption doesn't win, so you con't argue using Carth as a helper.

 

If there is no injured party because the people of the galaxy forgive Revan, then what's the point of a trial?

 

Revan left to clean up the Mandalorians. that's a perfectly good reason. i think i remember Carth saying that they attacked without warning. the case still stands though. Revan was the republic's hero. you can't blame them for trusting him/her. Revan abused that.

 

We don't actually know if there was ever any formal declaration of war. Besides, if Revan was such a great hero, then why wouldn't he try to influence the Republic rather than just attack them? Given that the Republic practically worshipped Revan and Malak for saving them and despised the jedi order for doing nothing, it makes no sense that Revan would just simply attack out of the blue. If one thing is consistent about Revan, then it's that he is a good tactician. I should think he'd try to "pull a Palpatine" before restorting to brute strength, especially when we know that his long-term goal was to prevent the fall of the Republic to the true Sith.

 

you don't know that the jedi order was ignorant because we don't know if Revan went to the jedi council to warn them about the true sith attack. since we don't know anything on this point your point can't be used. as well, Revan could've turned back from the dark side at any time. it's Revan's fault for continually bombarding the republic.

 

We also don't know that Revan did not try to warn the Republic, so your point would be equally moot.

 

Anyway, I was not talking about when Revan returned from the unknown regions. I was talking about how Revan was forced onto the path that led him to the dark side when the masters refused to protect the republic during the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us. And why we do not trust ourselves."

 

You can't blame Revan alone, since there is plenty of blame to go around. Even Zez-Kai Ell acknowledges this, and he was one of those masters himself!

 

i can't believe that you're trying to argue that the ds is not evil. this is just like your argument that the jedi are evil. Jediphile, it's called the "dark side". Vader takes evil actions at times? he takes evil actions all the time. name one good thing that he did after his fall and before his redemption. do the same thing for Darth Revan. plus, i thought you said intentions don't mean dirt to you.

 

So the jedi do only good? Funny... Because somehow it seems to that reprogramming Revan against his will, abusing him to covertly find the Starforge, and deliberately keeping the truth hidden from even AFTER he has helped Bastila escape the destruction of Taris somehow does not reflect too well on the "good" nature of the jedi masters...

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I have nothing more to say. It provides no comfort at all, for reasons on which I still must keep secret.Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

 

The dark side is mostly evil and the light side is mostly good, but you cannot afford to see it in all black and white. That was where Atris erred.

 

Atris: "I am Atris, Jedi Master... the last historian of the Jedi... the last of the Jedi."

 

Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you."

 

Atris: "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith."

 

Kreia: " "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you."

 

Atris: "How did it happen?"

 

Kreia: "Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall.Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still."

 

but what about Telos and other planets? sure Malak bombed some of them, but who's his master? who turned Malak ds? and finally, who started this crazy war?

 

So, what?, Malak is blameless for everything because Revan made him evil? Even Malak accepts himself that this is not true. I should think that Malak's betrayal was not quite part of Revan's master plan...

 

And in any event, if you can hold Malak blameless because "it was all Revan's fault", then I'm going to argue that Revan is also blameless because "it's all the masters' fault for forcing Revan's decision during the Mandalorian Wars."

 

As for who started the war, we don't know. You seem to assume it was Revan, but I don't think we actually know that.

[Emperor Devon]

of course i don't know how to win, ED! i'm not a master strategist like Revan.

 

Then it's a good thing I'm not asking how you to win. If I were doing that my posts would likely be pages long and filled with very boring questions related to troop deployments and the like.

 

Of course, this point is all moot since you've conceded Revan can't win without the Star Forge, and that the Forge is a dark side-only artifact. You've admitted that Revan has to turn to the dark side to win the war, which is basically conceding to my argument.

 

if you gave me a tank and a squad of riflemen and told me to use them to defeat 4 squads of riflemen and a tank 3 times bigger than the one i have, i wouldn't be able to do it. both you and me would be foolhardy to think anything else.

 

I disagree. The tactical situation you've posed is very easy to solve, depending on the terrain and the equipment of the troops. But that's another topic.

 

how do you propose Revan attacking the republic using the star forge was a good idea in the first place?

 

I've already answered this, but no harm in doing so again...

 

Fact: The Republic is a very large state, consisting of thousands of planets, along with immense numbers of people, shipyards, resources, hyperspace routes, etc.

 

Fact: Any invaders (the true Sith) that take over this state will gain a large advantage in the war. With it the true Sith would be able to bolster their fleet significantly, get more supplies for their troops, and most importantly, have access to all the hyperspace routes.

 

Fact: The Republic as it is is incapable of defending itself against the true Sith. Revan's empire is.

 

Therefore, is it not entirely logical that Revan's troops should defend the Republic, both to stop the true Sith from using its resources, and to gain (essential) resources they are incapable of producing otherwise?

 

@SilentScope: I think that answers the majority of your points indirectly.