Anakin's fighting style vs. Vader's

[jedispy]

One thing that kind of bugged me with ROTS is how different Anakin's/Vader's fighting style is from Episodes 4 - 6. I suppose you can say that within the 20 year time span a person can change the way they fight, but it seems to me that Anakin's style was nearly perfect in ROTS. I wish they'd have considered this when they were choreographing Episode 3.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

How fast would you be able to run, or how quick would you be able to swing a lightsaber if you had four prosthetic limbs? Don't forget that he's about 40 years old too, so I think it's rather obvious why he's not the flashy duelist we saw in RotS.

[jedispy]

but you see, they weren't prosthetic limbs. They were cybernetic limbs. By all means he ought to be able to move better than before (i.e. the famous Bionic Man "we can rebuild him" speech). Take a look at General Greivous. He was a cyborg (although he's commonly referred to as a droid....man that annoys me) that had incredible mobility. Of course his Kaleesh physiology wouldn't be able to move like that prior to his cybernetic enhancements.

 

Mechanical components don't get arthritis, and they don't need exercise. If you've got a bad component you just swap it out with a new one.

 

What you're referring to is a little different than what I meant though. In A New Hope, the duel was rather pathetic. I like to think that Vader was just toying with Old Ben Kenobi (who wasn't really that old now according to ROTS) and wanted to savor the fight. I'm more referring to the duels on Cloud City & Death Star 2. The fighting style of Darth Vader was quite different than what it was in ROTS. I'm not saying it was unimpressive (those duels were pretty darn cool). It's just that I wish they'd have choreographed Anakin's EP3 dueling style to be a little more like that in EP4-6. By all means include the jumps and flips and stuff. I don't mean that stuff. I'm just referring to pure saber style.

[Pho3nix]

Anakin Skywalker had to change his fighting form because of his armor. Also, his fatal flaw in losing to Obi-wan was that he didn't have the calmness and the experience of his former master, so he fought more aggressively relying on his hatred and his emotions which would prove to be a big mistake.

 

He learned from this and adapted a more "calm" way of fighting, often relying on Dun Möch to psychologically break down his opponents without having to use his lightsaber much. So that pretty much explains it.

[YertyL]

The reason is that the films are older, period. IMO there is no in-universe explanation that makes any sense (Dooku as an 80+ year old and Grievous as a complete Cyborg both fight pretty flashy)

[CLONECOMMANDER501]

The reason grevious could fight so well was because his arms/hands could spin, take a look at when he takes 4 lightsabers and forms a circle with them in ROTS.

[jedispy]

The reason is that the films are older, period.

I'm not asking "Why did Anakin fight better in the prequels" or anything like that. I'm just saying that I wish they'd have choreographed Anakin's fighting style in Episode 3 to be similar to his duels with Luke Skywalker. I think Vader's form in Ep 5 & 6 is really cool. He does a lot of single handed fighting with cool parries and strikes. This is totally different to how they choreographed it in EP3. That's all I'm saying. I guess I'm just not making my point very well. I'm a martial artist with weapons training, so I can notice things like combat technique & form.

 

As for Darth Vader being limited by armor, I don't buy that. After he puts on the armor in Ep3 he successfully hunts down the Jedi to near extinction.

 

As for General Greivous, I wasn't trying to compare him to Anakin/Vader. Greivous fought the way he did because his cybernetic modifications allowed him to. The point I was making with that is that his cybernetic modifications allowed him to fight better than a normal biological Kaleesh (his species). To further the point, I was saying that the concept that Darth Vader (post cybernetic implants) was handicapped or limited in any way is total rubbish. By all means Darth Vader should be more improved because cybernetic limbs will not grow tired (I mean exhaustion, not mechanical fatigue).

 

This is kind of becoming a stupid thread, and I apologize for that. My bad....my bad.

[Lord XZantor]

I heard some where that Aniken had to totally go to a different battle styles. Its not maily beacuse he had artofic. limbs, its beacuse of his mail Flaw. His cheast. On his cheast is the button thing, pannel, what ever you want to call it. He had to defend that because its what controled his body, his breathing. So then instead of the fast foward total attack fightings style, he had to convert to a more defence kind of a style. Jusl kie Grevious. If you watch when he fights Obi-Wan his 2 front light savors are spinning, and the others are pointed foward in a more defencive style.

[jedispy]

That is a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

[YertyL]

uhm I do believe that stabbing in the chest is pretty uncomfortable for a non-cyborg as well... (and every cell phone has a keylock funkction)

[PoiuyWired]

Well, the cyborg body (more like combination of tech and sith alchemy) is not perfect. Obviously the body allows for force powers, and is more sturdy than those of a meatbag, but it also seems less nimble. This is probably why Vader changes his fighting style to adapt to his new vessel. Oh, and it is also quite obvious that nicks and cuts do little to anakin's robot bits... it does not bleed and such, but his remaining meatbag bits are mostly housed in his torso.

 

Also, Vader is much better at choking people across the galaxy than Anakin, along with some other force based attacks, his change of form allows for more incorporation of these in his attacks.

 

What amazes me is that Vader did not think of adding Cortosis bits to his armor. Even Vos would get a nice Cortosis vambrace.

[jedispy]

Heh. If only cortosis was in the movies. I believe the electrostaffs, that the magnaguard droids use, are canonically made out of "a very dense metal" but there's no mention of cortosis. Perhaps the knowledge of this ore was lost by the time period of the clone wars & civil war.

 

Again this is all speculation, and I think George Lucas would say "J35u5 Jedispy, get a d@mn life!!!"

[TKT101]

I agree with Eager weasel on this because Vader could only walk not run because of Mustafar.

[CLONECOMMANDER501]

There were cortosis used in battledroids and A project during or after the GCW that was making force users with cortosis suits so they could destroy the jedi academy.

[jedispy]

Vader could only walk not run because of Mustafar

I don't think that's true at all. Just because we didn't see Vader run doesn't mean he couldn't run. We never saw Grand Moff Tarkin, Admiral Ozzel, or General Veers run but I'm sure their legs would allow it.

 

Darth Vader had agile legs. Look at his duel with Luke on Bespin. Although he never ran, there were places where he made swift motions with his legs. Also how about the part where he jumps down the stairs at Luke? Biological ankles would break with a fall like that.

 

I content that Darth Vader could easily have done all the acrobatic moves that he did in his non-cybernetic form. The reasons we don't see it in the original trilogy are:

• George Lucas probably didn't think to make him do it.
  
• David Prowse is a huge meatbag and incapable of doing stunts like that
  
• Lucasfilm didn't have the CG rendering technology to do it back then
  
• Darth Vader doesn't need to be doing flips and stuff. He's an awesome duelist even without it.

I refuse to believe that an individual with advanced cybernetic implants (more advanced than the clone wars era technology) would be incapable of incredible physical feats (even without the Force aiding them). Add in the Force's power and he ought to be d@mn near anything.

 

There were cortosis used in battledroids and A project during or after the GCW that was making force users with cortosis suits so they could destroy the jedi academy.

But was that ever mentioned in the movies? I'm not talking about Expanded Universe sources right now. I mean strictly movie canon

[Mace MacLeod]

Maybe you were unaware of this, but the prequel trilogy was made after the original trilogy was already out there for years. There's a ton of stuff George Lucas thought up in the interval he wanted to shove into the newer movies that he didn't think of before or have the time/technology to do in the first place, and the explanantion doesn't really exist anywhere but in his mind. Why did Anakin fight better than Vader? Because Lucas wanted it that way. Why would the good citizens of Naboo elect a 13 year-old to lead their entire planet? Because Lucas wanted it that way. Why would a society that figures out space travel, laser guns and sentient robots not have the ability to determine that Padme was carrying twins until labour? Lucas again.

 

To actually get the most out of Star Wars, you just have to suspend your disbelief and go along with it, dude.

[Jae Onasi]

Jae grins at Mace's discussion....

 

jedispy, the duel in A New Hope was state-of-the-art in 1977 when it came out. Part of the reason for the way that duel was choreographed was because they were using actual swords with special reflective paint on them, iirc. They didn't have CGI then. It had to be filmed a certain way, and that's why the dueling was much slower in A New Hope than in any of the other movies.

[jedispy]

<sigh> What do you people not get? Of course I get that the prequels were made after the original trilogy. Duh.

 

Of course I know that they didn't have the same technology that we have today. For crying out loud.

 

I don't care if they were using real swords, or that Alec Guiness was old in Episode 4, or that magical monster dumplings poisoned the duelists so that it would be lame by today's standards. This has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief. That's not what I'm talking about. So please just drop it. (by the way, I started another thread about how I wish Lucasfilm would have redone that that scene in EP4 when they re-released the special edition on DVD)

 

What I'm saying is that I wish they'd have choreographed Anakin's fighting in Episode 3 to be similar to his fighting style in Episodes 5 & 6.

 

That's it. Nothing more.

[PoiuyWired]

Heh. If only cortosis was in the movies. I believe the electrostaffs, that the magnaguard droids use, are canonically made out of "a very dense metal" but there's no mention of cortosis. Perhaps the knowledge of this ore was lost by the time period of the clone wars & civil war.

 

Again this is all speculation, and I think George Lucas would say "J35u5 Jedispy, get a d@mn life!!!"

nNope, those sticks areof hi-grade Phick, pure cortosis does more than blocking lightsabers.

 

I content that Darth Vader could easily have done all the acrobatic moves that he did in his non-cybernetic form. The reasons we don't see it in the original trilogy are:

• George Lucas probably didn't think to make him do it.
  
• David Prowse is a huge meatbag and incapable of doing stunts like that
  
• Lucasfilm didn't have the CG rendering technology to do it back then
  
• Darth Vader doesn't need to be doing flips and stuff. He's an awesome duelist even without it.

I refuse to believe that an individual with advanced cybernetic implants (more advanced than the clone wars era technology) would be incapable of incredible physical feats (even without the Force aiding them). Add in the Force's power and he ought to be d@mn near anything.

 

Obviously GL back in the days cannot even dream of some tech stuff we have today, same goes for using martial artists as stuntman/actors for the fighty stuff. Tech plays a part also, it is harder to color the sabers by hand when those darn guys are jumping and doing backflips every 0.00002342334 seconds.

 

But back to Vader at the In Universe World. Well, I would expact that not all technology would work well as implants and augmentation device without possably interfereing with force powers. Its like why Jedis cannot wear tinfoil hats and what not, they interferes with force powers.

[jedispy]

ROFL!!!! Tinfoil hats. I love that joke.

[Mace MacLeod]

What I'm saying is that I wish they'd have choreographed Anakin's fighting in Episode 3 to be similar to his fighting style in Episodes 5 & 6.

 

That's it. Nothing more.

Well, they didn't.

[jedispy]

Oh I'm sorry. I thought opinions and speech were o.k. here. My bad. Boy I'm sure glad Mace MacLeod was here to correct me. God bless you.

 

UNSUBSCRIBED

[CLONECOMMANDER501]

Will you guys get along?

 

 

 

Wanna know why they don't have the same fighting style? Because if Lucas had predicted Episode 3 more than he had back then, then it would of been spoiled.

[Gargoyle King]

Because GL purposly made the prequel movie more stylistic in terms of lightsaber mastery Anakin has a much more aggressivce lightsaber style in EP III than he does in IV,V & VI which to some may make the films seem unbalanced in comparison but i feel GL did this to appeal the SW universe to a new generation.

[RC-1162]

I think it's fine the way it is. You think about it: say you saw the first 2 SW Episodes. They have some pretty darn good duels in them. And then you saw EP3. Would you prefer it as much as you would the current version, if Anakin was shown walking about and swinging his saber horizontally? I think not

 

I believe GL must have made Anakin's saber skills very flashy in EP3 to prove a small point: that the lava river incident was what rooted Anakin into the Dark Side, since he was having doubts before then. He lost all his extraordinary lightsaber skills, his enormous Force strength (he was reduced to 80% as strong as the Emperor) and of course: his body. All this would have added to his rage and feeling of hatred towards Obi Wan and the Jedi in general, making him perfect for the Dark Side.

 

Getting a bit technical: take a look at Vader's armor. See the vertically grey-black striped shoulder piece? That's one solid piece of armor covering his shoulder joints. Take a hard look at it and you'll be able to see that one cannot possibly lift his arms even perfectly horizontal in that kind of armor, so Vader was severely restricted to brute force attacks and horizontal swings. Even when he kills Obi Wan in EP4, it was a plain two-handed swipe. Seemed quite unprofessional.

 

Lastly: look at the audience. A lot of SW fans are quite young. Being the youth of the 21st Century, I'm sure they would settle for nothing less than the best computer animations and CGI etc. I remember the first time I saw EP4, I thought: what kind of a lame duel is this? This was because I had seem EP1 and 2 before EP4. But later i realised that ANH was released in 1977 and gave it a big slice of cake since thats quite a big thing for then.