[SPOILER] Revan's gender.

[trettonkilolax]

I'm wondering if any of you who has a female main character in KotOR II remembers if Revan is refered as a male or female? Because while my main character being male all the others refers to Revan as a female (when on i.e. Wookiepedia Revan comes off as a he), and I think I know why.

 

The first time I played KotOR II I thought all along that the main character indeed was Revan (AGAIN!) because I got all these indications and vibes (same ship, same places, same appearance (if you choose), same mysterious background, Revan nowhere to be seen and so on...). But the mysterious thing was the fact that others always refered Revan as a female when my exile was male!

 

Then I figured, maybe Lucas Arts realized that some players might think that the exile was Revan so they made a very cheap resolution and made Revan refered to the exile's opposite gender in all of the conversations just so you wouldn't think it was KotOR I all over again...

 

What do you think?

[Darth Kalverys]

Revan is supposed to be a LS Male and the exile is supposed to be LS female

[JediRevan]

Actually it depends on the person playing the games as to whether Revan is LS male or LS female and the same can be said for the Exile.

[Master Zionosis]

Ultimately yes it is up to the player but since the games have become cannon Wikipedia states that: Revan = LS | Exile = LS.

 

So that is Cannon but its all fun you choose what you want to be, personally i play cannon and go LS each game and male K1 and Female K2.

 

And as to the reason all of your party referring Revan as female, is most likely because when you first met Atton on Peragus when he said that Revan was a woman you probably agreed, thus telling the game that Revan was a she, i always say the line to Atton "How long have you been locked up in that cage Revan was a man not a woman", that way everyone refers to Revan as a he.

[Jediphile]

In TSL, both Revan's and Exile's genders are set by the player. For the exile you set gender during character creation, and for Revan you set it (and Revan's alignment) during the first conversation with Atton. Setting Revan to female meets with a few bugs along the way, however, since there are a few places where Revan is referred to as "he" even if you decide Revan was female. However, those are few and clearly oversights.

[Allronix]

LucasArts said Revan was LSM, and Exile was LSF via Leland Chee. I have my theories as to WHY, but they'd probably start a shouting match. Needless to say, I find them the weakest of the 4 possibilities in their respective games.

 

The house rule is that Revan was LSF. As to Exile, well...bro in law and I can agree Exile's a man, and that Mical came along regardless. However, he sees LS, and I see DS.

[Lord Spitfire]

LucasArts said Revan was LSM, and Exile was LSF via Leland Chee. I have my theories as to WHY, but they'd probably start a shouting match. Needless to say, I find them the weakest of the 4 possibilities in their respective games.

 

Why is that?

 

I find the weakest being DSF and LSF. I think the best would be LSM Revan and DSM Exile, or LSF Revan and DSM Exile.

 

And NO, the genders are set by the character in the first conversation with Atton.

[Allronix]

Short answer:

 

Female Revan got access to 2/3 of the largest dialogue tree in-game (Carth's = 800K, Bastila's = 600K), a second romance (the scripting on Juhani was set to female, though bugged - I checked), and a third ending (granted, you have to cheat to find it). There was only one conversation totally locked to her (Bastila's final one). From aestetic viewpoint, it balances the cast - four women, four men, two droids, makes the Leviathan torture sequence fit a bit smoother (as you know Saul's not going to permanantly damage a Jedi Malak wants, but the non-Jedi ex-lieutenant of his is dead meat), and adds an additional half-twist to the revelation as everyone expects Revan to be this big guy, and not a Leia-sized gal.

 

LS? Well, from a practical standpoint, you have to mow down half your crew as a DS player. The crew in K1 were also very honor-bound with strong ethical beliefs and lines they won't cross - even Canderous operates out of his own people's sense of morals. From aestetics, the LS ending fits with the Classic Trilogy homage the game has going - from it opening with a big fight on a doomed ship to standing in front of the big crowd, everyone's partying because the big nasty battle station went boom.

 

K2 - Mical's great in fanfic. Damn, he cleans up in fanfic. In game, he loses to Brianna's arc. She starts out the scorned, shunned, "least" of her sisters with so little pride in herself she won't even acknowledge her name. During the course of the game, she questions her beliefs, embraces her heritage, and returns stronger than all of her sisters/tormentors combined.

 

DS? Well, the homage to ROTJ in the end, the fact that the "mentor" figure is such a corrupt old hag but makes a diabolical amount of sense. The fact the game itself is so relentlessly dark - everyone dies, the crew snipe at one another like nobles courting a monarch's favor, Kreia mind-rapes other crew if they come too close to upsetting her apple cart. The game also goes out of its way to show the Jedi are despised and hated, with arguments straight out of Brin.

[True_Avery]

First off, I'd like to state that the Gender of both Exile and Revan were both done for commercial means to give them a Gender. Technically neither of them have been given a canon Gender, but needed one in order to put the character into wiki/books/commercial/ect. I have the article somewhere and I'll fish it out if needed.

 

Revan:

Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.

I've played all 4 possible ways to play Kotor and I believed completely, and still do, that Revan was a Canon female due simply to so much more content. Believe it or not, I only found out in about the last month that Revan is "supposed" to be a guy after years of playing.

 

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

 

Exile:

As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

 

Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

 

Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

 

Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

 

The gender specific characters joining the party or not was a huge disapointment to me and the second I get TSL for PC I'm grabbing the Brianna female mod. I believed that Juhani situation pushed it a little, even though I am highly highly disapointed they cut her backstory, but full on characters not joining or not...*sigh*. Cutting so much of the canon and lore into two seperate pieces is absurd and should never have been done.

 

I'll admit it, I'm also biased to Star Wars for always making the male the honorable hero while the women get stuck with bad dialog at times and simply little to do but sit back and watch the men deal with everything.

 

Here is a quote that I think is beautiful in all rights, summing up why I choose to play female as a female:

Yes, this seems like another ackward an ill-placed post. But I believe those who read my work should know this: I DO try as much as possible to work every and all official Lucasfilm/arts sanctioned bit of information upto a point: that point being a female Revan character—the choice to go canon on this character given the multiplicity of male heroes in the Star Wars genre irks me, and therefore will never earn my support—unless Lelan Chee recants and there is a female Revan doll along side Barbie who can take her mask off and you can dress up. I don’t agree with the idea of cliche = canon as a Star Wars fan. The male hero cliche is old and over used in the Star Wars genre. If its creator is to be true his vision, then he will allow for change, otherwise the SW genre will be forgotten not by unwilling fans but by its own creator.

 

As a woman I used to dream of reading every Star Wars book to my children—but I refuse to send the message to any of my girls that they are less able to become heroes simply because George Lucas says so. That is my rant—girls by the Force can bear life—and by the Force and in the service of the Force they more luminous beings… my fic reflects this

This is Star Shadow's fic btw and it is one of the most brilliant things I have ever read: http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/?author=646

[Diego Varen]

I find canon the strongest and the majority of the time, I will always follow canon. I don't mind a male Exile though, but I dislike a female Revan, since for me it doesn't feel right.

[JediRevan]

I play either one. I have never read anywhere that Revan was male, not even on the Lucasarts website.

[Lord Spitfire]

First off, I'd like to state that the Gender of both Exile and Revan were both done for commercial means to give them a Gender. Technically neither of them have been given a canon Gender, but needed one in order to put the character into wiki/books/commercial/ect. I have the article somewhere and I'll fish it out if needed.

 

Revan:

Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.

I've played all 4 possible ways to play Kotor and I believed completely, and still do, that Revan was a Canon female due simply to so much more content. Believe it or not, I only found out in about the last month that Revan is "supposed" to be a guy after years of playing.

 

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

 

Exile:

As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

 

Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

 

Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

 

Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

 

The gender specific characters joining the party or not was a huge disapointment to me and the second I get TSL for PC I'm grabbing the Brianna female mod. I believed that Juhani situation pushed it a little, even though I am highly highly disapointed they cut her backstory, but full on characters not joining or not...*sigh*. Cutting so much of the canon and lore into two seperate pieces is absurd and should never have been done.

 

I'll admit it, I'm also biased to Star Wars for always making the male the honorable hero while the women get stuck with bad dialog at times and simply little to do but sit back and watch the men deal with everything.

 

Here is a quote that I think is beautiful in all rights, summing up why I choose to play female as a female:

 

This is Star Shadow's fic btw and it is one of the most brilliant things I have ever read: http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/?author=646

 

You make a pretty good point with Revan. For me, 50% of my games have been DSM Revan, 25% have been LSF Revan, about 25% LSM, and none with DSF.

 

True, some mechanics of the story flow better with a female. Some would also argue that Carth deserves a lover more than Bastila, which I agree to in a way. But, I don't know, a female Revan just doesn't seem right to me. I don't mean to be sexist at all and I mean no offence, I'm just stating that it doesn't quite add up for me. He walked in the powers of Malachor, basked in the dark side, studied the ancient secrets of the True Sith, and made a decision to conquer the Republic in order to protect. Such an aggressive, rash, but not neccessarily wrong, move would be more common in ment, while I picture women as being much subtler in their plans. Such as, bringing the senate down from the inside, perhaps?

 

Now, throughout the two Star Wars trilogies, I have to agree that the females were too . . . underused, and were always the damsels in distress. Then, the males are always the heroic type. Now, this is why I am in favor of - or rather, agree with - a female Exile. As you said, due to genetical nature, a female would be more devastated by being cut off to all life and having power itself stripped from her. Women are usually able to connect to others better. However, I find that the hardship and coldness of an Exiled life, having to wander the edges of the galaxy as practically a walking corpse would be more imaginable for a man. I think that the Exile has a darkness in him that I can't really imagine in a female. Because, Steryotypically - emphasis on the word, STERYOTYPE - women are kinder and more "good" than men. However, the influence of having male heroes - thus more character conflicts with males - could have created this steryotype, but it is a steryotype nonetheless. And EVERYBODY loves steryotype, right? So, I'm not sure whether I want Exile to be male or female at this point.

 

 

And just a side note . . . what's the name of the fanfic on the page in your link?

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Now, throughout the two Star Wars trilogies, I have to agree that the females were too . . . underused, and were always the damsels in distress.

 

It's funny you said that, because Padme Amidala and Princess Leia Organa didn't seemed to me helplessly at all in (most) of the movies. Padme gives the geonosians a tough time, on EP II and Leia is kinda hard on all the Old Trilogy. For me, females on Star Wars have much of a character, thank you. ]

 

Then, the males are always the heroic type. Now, this is why I am in favor of - or rather, agree with - a female Exile. As you said, due to genetical nature, a female would be more devastated by being cut off to all life and having power itself stripped from her.)

 

What makes you say that?

 

And, I agree with Allronix, but, I don't know, I resist so much on thinking on Revan as a female. And I don't have the means to say why right now, so I'll think some more and give you guys a deserving answer.

[Rockstar]

Revan definately suited the persona of a man as a Sithlord and a Jedi. I actually felt that although female revan had more dialogue options, the male revan was far better.

 

The romance with Bastilla is awesome and possibly the best romance in a game ever back in 2003 when it was released. This element alone i think made the male senario better than the female senario. It also balances the Jedi in your party to 2 men and 2 women.

 

Carth is too much of an anal, untrusting sissy for a strong, powerful women to be attracted to IMO. This does not fit with reality! lol.

 

Revan was a man for sure!

 

Exile was definately better a female i think and the only thing better for the male was the romances with Visas and Handmaden (especially handmaiden and her controversal return to Telos!).

 

I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

[JediRevan]

Who wrote the canon that states Revan has to be male?

[Lord Spitfire]

Who wrote the canon that states Revan has to be male?

 

Bioware did, and they are the makers of the game. Just how Obsidian stated Exile was female, and they made KotOR2.

[True_Avery]

Bioware did, and they are the makers of the game. Just how Obsidian stated Exile was female, and they made KotOR2.

This is true, but only for comercial reasons.

 

I was just wondering if you've been called upon to enter a canon ending to Knights Of The Old Republic II:The Sith Lords into the holocron.

No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity.

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1005

 

That was posted by Leland Chee in the Q&A thread at Starwars.com.

 

Revan and Exile's gender was made for editorial reasons, not technically for canon for story reasons. You cannot say "he/she" in offical books and get a good response, so they needed to just say a gender and get on with it. The game shows completely that either gender could be canon, and later Star Wars states that Palpatine altered the archives of the galaxy to his liking, so it's hard to be sure something like gender could not have been changed in the long run.

 

So, to everybody that goes nuts over "That can't be Revan's gender because of this this this and this!", please remember it is not a fully offical canon. Revan and Exile's gender is personal preference, and for those of us that dare to like to see Revan as a female... don't let anybody tell you that you are wrong from fact.

 

I will always believe that the gender of Revan and Exile is unknown to all but the person who plays him/her until George Lucas walks up to me and tells me whats what. The game allows you to be either gender, play the game differently with each, and still come out with the same 2 endings. Revan and Exile are your character, and another who tries to force a gender down your throat is not worth my respect.

[Diego Varen]

I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

 

I have to agree with you Rockstar. Female Revan just doesn't seem right and has no advantages, other than the romance with Carth (Which I've never tried). Male Exiles have two things better than female Exiles. A romance with Brianna/Visas and the fight with Atris is much better.

[Allronix]

Carth is too much of an anal, untrusting sissy for a strong, powerful women to be attracted to IMO. This does not fit with reality! lol.

 

Dude. Head to kotorfanmedia.com. The Flyboy has quite the fanclub. One of the mods on that board is a romance novelist and was actually impressed Bioware "did their homework" and gave the girls a 38-year-old widower with a teenaged son and some baggage he manages to off-load.

 

As for why I really like the romance? Well, that's for PM or another post. Suffice to say, I appreciated that he was mature enough to know love from infatuation (something I could not say for the boys of K2), that he got to know the gal as "just" a gal (no Force involved, and neither party hiding what they knew), and that he could take and dish out a little abuse. ("Hairless Wookiee? Just calm down before your head explodes." "Oh, ouch! I think you hurt my man-feelings on that one.")

 

Meanwhile, the Bastila romance left me a tad uncomfortable, even after 2 play-throughs as a guy. I wasn't sure if she really loved my character, or was infatuated with "my" good looks, Force ability, working hormones she's never had the chance to use, a Force Bond amplifying feelings that may or not be there, and a bit of a desire to rebel against the masters by running off with the bad boy. Plus, the hand she had in your rebirth added an Oedepus Rex element to the whole thing.

 

I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

 

Meh. Lumiya was actually quite the looker once. So was Bane's apprentice, IIRC. Actually, I'm kinda in agreement with Atton - "The men are bad enough, but when a woman falls to the Dark Side..."

[True_Avery]

No mean to sound weird, but that is a great summary of the two relationships Allronix. Probably one of he best I have seen yet.

 

I agree, the Carth relationship felt so much more mature and... well... worked on than the Bastila relationship did. I remember the first time I played through male and thinking "This is way too cheezy and overdone to be a stable romance." There was so much more that could have been done beside a puppy love obsession that felt more like two high school kids flirting than two adults speaking out to one another. Female Revan and Carth had, in my opinion, quite a realistic relationship going on that could have worked out opposed to the Bastila romance. Female Revan running away from Carth opposed to running from Bastila just has a somewhat more loving and mature feel to it. One is running from a relationship that was going to far and would have stopped any plans she had and possibly kill Carth, and the other looked more like Revan running away from Bastila due to something more important than puppy love coming across.

 

Thats my opinion anyway.

[Totenkopf]

In TSL, both Revan's and Exile's genders are set by the player. For the exile you set gender during character creation, and for Revan you set it (and Revan's alignment) during the first conversation with Atton. Setting Revan to female meets with a few bugs along the way, however, since there are a few places where Revan is referred to as "he" even if you decide Revan was female. However, those are few and clearly oversights.

 

 

Yeah, glitches can be funny things. I had one game where the conversation between Exile and Mandalore refers to Revan's gender interchangeably.

 

Having played all 4 options (ie M/F) for Revan and Exile, my default positions are still male for both, regardless of alignment. If the Lucas Arts people decide on a cannon gender for the characters, that's what they will be. It won't change the fact, however, that the gender and alignment roles in the games can still be chosen. I suspect that an affinity for male or female is still going to largely depend on the gender of the player (ie, the "it feels right to me" argument).

[True_Avery]

Having played all 4 options (ie M/F) for Revan and Exile, my default positions are still male for both, regardless of alignment. If the Lucas Arts people decide on a cannon gender for the characters, that's what they will be. It won't change the fact, however, that the gender and alignment roles in the games can still be chosen. I suspect that an affinity for male or female is still going to largely depend on the gender of the player (ie, the "it feels right to me" argument).

Yeah, I don't think the topic can go much farhter beyond people claiming what their preference is, and then some arguing about it. Fun while it lasted, but I'm done with this thread.

[Lord Spitfire]

No mean to sound weird, but that is a great summary of the two relationships Allronix. Probably one of he best I have seen yet.

 

I agree, the Carth relationship felt so much more mature and... well... worked on than the Bastila relationship did. I remember the first time I played through male and thinking "This is way too cheezy and overdone to be a stable romance." There was so much more that could have been done beside a puppy love obsession that felt more like two high school kids flirting than two adults speaking out to one another. Female Revan and Carth had, in my opinion, quite a realistic relationship going on that could have worked out opposed to the Bastila romance. Female Revan running away from Carth opposed to running from Bastila just has a somewhat more loving and mature feel to it. One is running from a relationship that was going to far and would have stopped any plans she had and possibly kill Carth, and the other looked more like Revan running away from Bastila due to something more important than puppy love coming across.

 

Thats my opinion anyway.

 

Perhaps . . . though I don't agree that Revan "ran away" from Bastila/Carth, not in the retrospect you put it in.

 

In fact, it would be much more sensible for me for Revan to leave Bastila and refuse to take her with him in order to protect her . . . seems like female Revan would have taken Carth, I don't know why . . .

[Emperor Devon]

seems like female Revan would have taken Carth, I don't know why .

 

I wouldn't know why either. She'd love Carth just as much as a male Revan would've loved Bastila, with the added risk of Carth being nowhere nearly as handy in a fight. Definitely not a good idea to have taken him.

[Jediphile]

Female Revan got access to 2/3 of the largest dialogue tree in-game (Carth's = 800K, Bastila's = 600K), a second romance (the scripting on Juhani was set to female, though bugged - I checked), and a third ending (granted, you have to cheat to find it). There was only one conversation totally locked to her (Bastila's final one).

 

Female Revan may get more dialogue, but then so what? To me the depth of the experience will always have higher priority, and what do you get with the female Revan love interests? You get nothing with Juhani, because there just isn't much to go on. You get something with Carth, and you could argue that this helps Revan stay clear of the dark side by reminding her of something she needs to hold onto. However, you can make just the same argument for male Revan's feelings for Bastila, and in his case it goes both ways - it keeps him on the right path, but in the end he must leave himself utterly defenseless to Bastila to prove his feelings and risk death at her hands to bring her back from the dark side. That's a much stronger point IMHO.

 

From aestetic viewpoint, it balances the cast - four women, four men, two droids, makes the Leviathan torture sequence fit a bit smoother (as you know Saul's not going to permanantly damage a Jedi Malak wants, but the non-Jedi ex-lieutenant of his is dead meat), and adds an additional half-twist to the revelation as everyone expects Revan to be this big guy, and not a Leia-sized gal.

 

Revan IS big and powerful, guy or gal. It's precisely for that reason that male Revan has to demonstrate vulnerability to Bastila at the end of the game to save her is such a compelling point. Female Revan doesn't have that.

 

DS? Well, the homage to ROTJ in the end, the fact that the "mentor" figure is such a corrupt old hag but makes a diabolical amount of sense. The fact the game itself is so relentlessly dark - everyone dies, the crew snipe at one another like nobles courting a monarch's favor, Kreia mind-rapes other crew if they come too close to upsetting her apple cart. The game also goes out of its way to show the Jedi are despised and hated, with arguments straight out of Brin.

 

No, I think TSL works better for LS. Why? Because Kreia really doesn't like the DS Exile. Note her differing comments to the unconscious exile on Dantooine:

 

Kreia to LS exile: "There are places in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. Such places are born of war, of death - of suffering. And if unchecked, their power grows, scream building upon scream, until any who can hear succumb to it - or die.It breaks the spirit beneath it - as all wars do.There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

 

Not exactly lots of praise, but the alternative is even more dismissing:

 

Kreia to DS exile: "Is it as you expected?I had thought you were the last of the Jedi, as did the Sith. But there are more of them than you know.Yes, and that is I, though I am not of them any longer. Yes, and that is why this place is empty. You are correct - time is something that neither of us has. But for now, we must speak.Your actions have crippled the Order, perhaps destroyed them. {A little uncertain}No... perhaps... it is difficult to say. For every Jedi slain, for every Sith slain, another rises. But the Order is wounded, yes. Oh no, there is a purpose in such things. That is what we are here to discuss.Because there is something we must discuss. {Not proud}Oh, yes. Your hate has destroyed them - you should be proud of the blood you have spilled, the lives you have ended. {Should say victory, like she doesn't believe it is a victory at all, but a crime}But before enjoying this victory - there is something we must discuss first.The destruction of the Order, the Masters, it was not an end in itself. I did not expect them to still live, their presence was... knowledge I did not possess.But you have corrected that, and now the sides of this conflict are as I had thought them to be. There are no more unknowns. But now this has been corrected, and now the sides of this conflict are as I had thought them to be. There are no more unknowns. And what you have done - it is not enough. Although I did not expect them to still live, I had hoped you would learn something from the Jedi Masters as they fell before you. Not just of battle, but of yourself... and the Force. {Quiet, this is important}I must know if killing them, if revenge brought you any measure of satisfaction. If seeing them dead has settled the disquiet within you.That is your wish - not mine. There is strength in defeating an enemy, not slaying them. Because it matters to me, in a way that never mattered to the Jedi, to the Council when they cast you out.You must understand - I did not wish the Jedi dead. Defeated... perhaps.But their presence in the Force held dangers - they may have been used to sustain the one that threatens us. {A little surprised, didn't want them dead, just shown that they were wrong}Did I wish to see them dead? No, defeated perhaps.I merely wished them to see that they and their teachings were wrong. {Beat at second sentence}That one could not truly understand the Force simply by adhering to the Jedi Code. {Slight sadness }All I have ever trained have been failures to them, students who went to fight the Mandalorians, who fell to the dark side, who abandoned their training. {Followed by pride}To see one that had the strength to best them, that is a moment I will not forget. Yet, it has not been as satisfying as I had hoped. To best one in battle is one thing. To defeat them without striking a blow - that was my hope. Regardless... it had to be done. To have such powerful Jedi still live, still be felt in the Force even on such worlds as they had chosen, was a threat that had to be ended.To the Sith? No, not to the Sith - perhaps not in the way you would think.Let us return to my question. If by killing these Jedi, if you achieved any measure of peace.That is not important. First - let us return to my question. If by killing these Jedi, if you achieved any measure of peace.{Firm, pronouncing judgment, now everything hits the fan}It was as I thought. {Quiet}You have failed me. Completely, and utterly.Ahh!{Hissing, disgusted, just stabbed herself so the player would feel it}There - do you feel that, exile? It cuts through your defenses - as unprepared for such an attack as you are. {Stern, holding back pain}Let that pain be a lesson - and a reminder of what you have forgotten.Pain travels both ways along connections in the Force - it casts echoes, always - and one can learn to draw strength from such connections... and take it from others.It is a lesson you know well... and you have taught to others... at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. {GP: She fires a drain force on the player, draining his energy.]}{Accusing, angry, this is the final moment}I have taught you to hear the Force again, shown you the contrast, and yet still you do not understand. This is what you have wrought. Countless murderers, slayers, assassins, born of war that has as always, has taught the wrong lesson.{Accusing, disgusted}You showed them life without the Force - and instead of showing them truth, power, all you showed them was how the galaxy may die. You are responsible for all of this. Even now, events spiral towards destruction, and there is nothing that can be done because you refuse to listen, to understand.You have seen the effects you have on those close to you, heard the echoes scream across dead planets, and watched as your strength has grown. Yet it is for nothing. To have the Jedi Masters brought low by such a failure, there is no victory in that. You have not heard a thing I have taught, and for all I have said, you have never learned to listen. {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia does a Force Crush on the player, lifting him, and then holding him there.]}{[GP: She looks around the chamber.]}{Looks around}Vrook was right to come here, though he did not recognize the connection until too late. This place will hide you from the Sith for a time - enough to do what must be done. {[Gameplay Programmer: At the end, she lets the player fall, and he twitches.]}You were my last hope, the only one who could avert the disaster that comes. And now you have left me nothing. {Sadly, dissappointed}You were my last hope, the only one who could change what is to come. And now you have left me nothing. I can teach you no longer. I have cut my bond to you - I have no need of it any longer.I can teach you no longer. The bond between our lives remain, but that is all. It is my last lesson to you. I shall teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all.Stay here and die, apprentice, among the wreckage of all that remains of the Jedi. It is a fitting grave until the Sith come to end you... to end everything. {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia walks away from the fallen player, toward the exit.]}{[GP: Spoken as Kreia walks away.]}Listen... awaken... or die.{[GP: Spoken as Kreia walks away.]}And as you lie here, I pray you will listen... and finally awaken. {[Gameplay Programmer: Player lies in the flagstones of the Enclave, broken, as it fades to black.]}{[blackness, hear the echo, and it builds.]}"

 

Kreia may look down on the LS exile, but the DS exile completely fails her and is scorned for it.

 

Besides, the exile needs to the LS just for the sake of balance. There are two sith lords in the game. Three with Kreia. Four if you count Atris. And the jedi masters are ignorant fools who fail to grasp what is going on. It makes so much more sense to me that a LS exile saves the galaxy because he feels it's worth saving than a DS exile who saves it because he has nothing better to do and is forced into it by the sith. You're right that TSL is dark. But that's why the exile needs to be LS - he is the counterbalance.

 

Revan:

Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.

 

Lots of strong characters in Star Wars. Leia was always strong. Luke even says so himself. While he has wavered and Han believed in nothing, Leia was always true to her ideals. Padmé is certainly also the idealist in the prequels. What's missing is a powerful female jedi. But if you make Revan or exile female on that basis, then you're doing it for the sake of equality between the genders and not for the sake of what's best in the plot. I like that the big and powerful Revan has to demonstrate vulnerability to win Bastila back. It's a strong plot point, because Revan ends up having to let go of all the control and power that he has been building up until that point. Female Revan has no scene like that.

 

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

 

Well, you could call LS Revan grey in the sense that Jolee is grey. But that's still LS to me. What they have in common is how they reject the rules and conventions in order to pursue what they think is the greater good. I find them both LS on that basis, while the jedi masters just blindly hold onto their jedi code... and we see what that brings them in TSL...

 

Exile:

As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

 

That makes no sense to me. I've always felt the exile should be male for two reasons.

 

The first is due to love interests. The male exile caused or was at least a factor in Atris' fall to the dark side due to her feelings for him. It makes sense that she loves the male exile, which is a major plot point, which is weaker for the female exile. Instead the female exile has Sion's love, which makes no sense whatsoever and comes straight out of the blue. Then there is the relationship to handmaiden and disciple, but we'll get to that.

 

The other reason is due to the exile's nature. In short, the exile is pretty pathetic. I mean, this person has been in utter denial about what really happened at Malachor V and is responsible for the destruction Nihilus has wrought as a result, according to the jedi masters. This is a person with some pretty severe psychological problems. And so it turns out, of course, that canon dictates it must be a woman... I don't like the implications that lie in that statement. And so I think it would be more fitting for it to be a man.

 

Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

 

I don't know if I agree Mical works better for females. I mean, take a look at some of the things he says:

 

"I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. You taught us the ways of combat, how to hear music within the movements of a lightsaber blade. You taught us how to move within the Force, and see it flow within others. How to see it in the behaviors of others, and use that sight to achieve truth. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different - we could all feel it. {A little quiet, baring his soul}And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war. Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer. Atris, the mistress of the archives, was first among them. I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct. I realized I did not want to be a Jedi - instead, I wished to follow your path. And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance.It is possible to forget the Force, you know - if you not have felt it strongly enough, then there is little to miss. But I never felt the Force as strongly as I did when I was with you.And so I decided to serve the Republic, study the Jedi teachings, gather them, perhaps. It was important to me to understand the Jedi now that they were gone.I felt some part of you should be preserved, so that your lessons would not be lost."

 

Now, given that Mical will follow only a female exile and not a male, all this rings wrong, because it's obvious that he is attracted to the female exile. That puts his "admiration" for the exile as a leader and teacher in a highly suspicious light whether he is aware of it or not. Besides, if this is how he feels for the female exile alone, then the she should be the last person in the universe to teach him the ways of the force, since his emotions are clearly in his way - the masters would and should never have allowed it. He is a love-sick little puppy who is out of his depth, and according jedi rules that could lead nowhere positive. For someone who holds so true to the jedi code as Mical does, it is frankly sickening that he doesn't see this himself. A male exile could teach him, because there are no emotions. But a female exile? No way!

 

Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

 

I don't see how Brianna will follow a female exile unless the cut scene is restored where Atris orders her to do so. She has a very low opinion of the exile, but is attracted to the male exile. Though she is a love interest in the game, I don't think she is a healty one because she sees her father in the male exile, which is not a good thing. Regardless, her "Cinderella"-position beneath her sisters, her growth as a character, and her eventual triumphant return where she bests her sisters and confronts Atris for the male exile's affections is a powerful plot. So even though I don't think there can ever be any lasting relationship between her and the male exile, because she will always be looking for her lost father there, I do think it adds up to a powerful arc that helps the overall story and game. That it is axed by canon is frankly a crime

 

Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

 

The exile-Sion love relationship is sickening. It has no basis in anything and comes straight out of the blue. If there had at least been an explanation, like if Sion turns out to be someone the exile had a close relationship with in the past (like the male exile and Atris), then it would at least have made some semblance of sense. As it is now, it looks tacked on - thrown in at the last second to balance the male exile/Atris-bit. But it's just very, very, very, exceedingly pathetic plot as it is now. Even for the canonic female exile it should be axed for that reason alone!