Lucasarts and Bioware Corp. partnership OFFICIAL - At last

[Prime]

Lego Star Wars KOTOR

I'd love to see this!

[tk102]

I'd love to see this!

Ask Watson to loan you his copy.*

[Darth InSidious]

Nihilus is mysterious and deadly. He is evil incarnate, and that is why he cannot be known in any way. Besides, we already know that Avellone had bigger plans for him. In short, he is strange, yes, but there is a reason for it, a reason why he must be like this.

I beg to differ. 1-dimensional would also be an accurate description, I feel.

 

You couldn't have found a better way to reply here DI? This is a definite flame-bait attempt. See that this doesn't happen again, mkay? -RH

-Done.

As for Kreia's cause, it is thought-provoking and original in the context of Star Wars - she is the Star Wars version of Captain Ahab and is - like Ahab - at war with god (=will of the Force). It's complex, sure, but at least it doesn't carbon-copy the gazillion other superficial Star Wars plots we've seen.

Quite. However, she also copies the "whiny teacher" model, is about the closest relative to Sidious in terms of character, and isn't so much novel as counter-rational, impossible to please, lies, cheats, and moves the goalposts all the time.

 

Seriously, though, she isn't some wondrously novel character. Her vaunted talk about hating the Force seems to me to be an excuse for the emo/anarchist who never grew up. She got wound up because she was a crap teacher, flounced out of the Jedi Order in a huff, then got annoyed when her ridiculously stupid new apprentices who derive power from, to quote Canderous, something equivalent to "driving a spike through your head", and flounced off again to go around with a guy/gal she apparently disliked for his/her 'stupidity' by her judgement, called them a failure and ran away, then when he beat two successive 'apprentices' turned volte-face and said "actually, it was all a test", then decides that her insane plan is something she both wants and sees mustn't happen...There's a mess of plot ideas and threads that in the end, rather than creating a cohesive moevement through the game, instead gives the impression of a car crash involving multiple story lines.

As for Sion, I actually agree with you - the lame Sion/exile love thing is silly in the extreme and a major reason why I cannot accept the exile as female. For the male exile, the plot is fine, but for the (canon) female exile, the "love the sith"-plot is tacked on and badly written, while the relationship with Atris seems comparatively forced. Therefore it always felt to me like the authors intended the exile to be male.

I third this motion. The relationship with Atris as a female Exile seems, well...stupid:-

 

"We were very good friends. And that is why I've been pining for ten years over my best friend doing something that I find wrong, and have cut myself off from the rest of the Order, hated her and fallen to the Dark Side over it because...err...I wear my heart on my sleeve, despite that being as dangerous in a Jedi as [etc etc]?" - Huh?

 

 

As for the whole Sion love thing - what? They met maybe four times, and each time he tried to kill her! Fishy-fishy, to quote the whimpering locker on Manaan.

 

Now onto the topic: Some people seem to think this is a disaster. Come on. It's not like it's - oh, I don't know - Lionhead studios - are definitely making KotOR III.

 

Even if Bioware is, they're still damn good developers, and the original storyline is hardly the bad fanfic that some make it out to be. For that matter, neither is TSL's the meisterwork of social commentary on a par with Vile Bodies, nor a Shakespearean linguistic masterpiece (despite the dialogue which at times reads like it was put together by someoen from about 1593), nor is it an epic on the scale of Tolkien. It's a fairly good game, but it's hardly going to set the world alight.

 

Bioware + LA = something fairly good. Even an MMO by them would at least be guaranteed to involve some fairly cool concepts. Who knows at this juncture? Wait, see, then start screaming and slitting your wrists.

 

If it is either Obsidian or Bioware that make KotOR III, I'll be OK with it. It's not like I get a vote on the subject anyhow...

 

...If it's a new PC, however, there will be blood.

[Corinthian]

Maybe it's not KotoR at all. Maybe LA wants Bioware to make an Indiana Jones game, or maybe something completely different. To be honest, KotoR should have been the first, last, and only game in the series. They wrapped everything up at the end. Malak was toast, the Star Forge was gone, Revan was redeemed. Then LucasArts tried to milk it and we get this bizarre plotline about Revan leaving the Republic to go fight 'The True Sith'.

 

We've got a total of something like 25000 years of history that hasn't even been touched upon, not counting the Rakata Occupations and everything before the founding of the Republic. And instead of building up, everything is set in three time periods: Original Trilogy Era, Prequel Trilogy Era, and KotoR. They're just now doing "Between OT and PT." Geez.

[Lance Monance]

 

Seriously, though, she isn't some wondrously novel character. Her vaunted talk about hating the Force seems to me to be an excuse for the emo/anarchist who never grew up. She got wound up because she was a crap teacher, flounced out of the Jedi Order in a huff, then got annoyed when her ridiculously stupid new apprentices who derive power from, to quote Canderous, something equivalent to "driving a spike through your head", and flounced off again to go around with a guy/gal she apparently disliked for his/her 'stupidity' by her judgement, called them a failure and ran away, then when he beat two successive 'apprentices' turned volte-face and said "actually, it was all a test", then decides that her insane plan is something she both wants and sees mustn't happen...There's a mess of plot ideas and threads that in the end, rather than creating a cohesive moevement through the game, instead gives the impression of a car crash involving multiple story lines.

You should portray more characters. =)

[Jvstice]

corinthian: Yeah. I'd love to see the fall of Ajunta Pall in a Bioware game.

[adamqd]

hmmm, a game based around the Exile of the Dark Jedi into Sith space, and there subsequent rise as Dark Lords of the Sith... cool

[Negative Sun]

You know the word interactive in the press release kinda speaks volumes though...Unless that's what they want us to think!

 

Get Mulder and Scully here on the double!!!

[The Architect]

Post #61 and #64

 

That's my J-Phile.

 

Anyhow, I'm starting to think that BioWare's "new next gen game" which must be the LA game, since there "Massively Multiplayer Online" game was announced ages ago, isn’t a KotOR III MMORPG. Why?

 

-BioWare has said they’re not making any more KotOR games...

-They wouldn’t make two MMORPG’s at the same time or consecutively, would they?

-Remember Avellone’s fairly recent interview? It went from "We aren't developing it right now and I don't think anyone else is, either" to in the interview: " I can't talk about it." Hmm....

-LA has made non-Star Wars games before. There’s a possibility this game has nothing to do with KotOR or Star Wars, which I hope is the case.

 

Given the above, suddenly there’s a good chance BioWare won’t be making a SP or MPO version of KotOR III. If that’s the case, **** yes! Avellone’s the man. He’s pretty much already done his K3 plot. LA would be foolish not to let him unveil his awesomeness.

 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Don’t be surprised if your plot isn’t far off from Avellone’s vision of K3, Jediphile. Hell, I bet you’ve even got the planets right.

[Char Ell]

^^^

At this point I feel confident that this BioWare/LucasArts partnership will yield an MMORPG based on a LucasArts IP.

[Jvstice]

If you're going to be that general, that could even be a grim fandago mmo.

[SilentScope001]

You know the word interactive in the press release kinda speaks volumes though...Unless that's what they want us to think!

 

Get Mulder and Scully here on the double!!!

 

You do realize that even Pong could be considered 'interactive', right?

 

Push a button, and you interact with the enviroment, being able to manipulate a ping-pong ball to fly in the other direction.

 

"Interactivity" is just a buzz word.

 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Don’t be surprised if your plot isn’t far off from Avellone’s vision of K3, Jediphile. Hell, I bet you’ve even got the planets right.

 

Er. Maybe that may be true, but I think Avellone MUST have a different plotline. Why? Because to keep it unique, that's all. What's the point of the "plot twist" if everyone knows about it happening before the game's even announced? Besides, nobody predicted Kreia when speculating on K2.

[Negative Sun]

You do realize that even Pong could be considered 'interactive', right?

 

Push a button, and you interact with the enviroment, being able to manipulate a ping-pong ball to fly in the other direction.

 

"Interactivity" is just a buzz word.

We also don't live in 1980 anymore...Interactive doesn't have the same impacts as it used to, whereas it used to be a novelty merely to interact with a computer, now that computer has become such a part of society that the interaction is done via computer, with another person...

Slight nuance but worth mentioning

[SilentScope001]

We also don't live in 1980 anymore...Interactive doesn't have the same impacts as it used to, whereas it used to be a novelty merely to interact with a computer, now that computer has become such a part of society that the interaction is done via computer, with another person...

 

Thing is, I've seen games where you interact with the enviroment, even today. There was that "Red Faction" game where you can interact with the enviroment by blowing stuff up and then going through those hazards. They even use the exact same buzzword of "interactivty" in its ad campagin, and I think it was around 2000 when that game was released. Maybe, by interactivty, it means that whatever you do in the game world could end up affecting the future of the game world, leading to different endings, so you are interacting with the game.

 

Interactive is just too broad for me to just pigeon-hole it in just one method.

[Negative Sun]

Hmmm good point that...

[Char Ell]

If you're going to be that general, that could even be a grim fandago mmo.

Uh, sure, it could be but you honestly don't expect it to be, right?

 

What if I said that I feel confident that it will be a MMORPG based in the Star Wars universe at some point in the timeline prior to 1,000 BBY? That is what I expect it to be but am not 100% confident in that. BioWare and LucasArts could surprise us with something else I guess but I don't see this project turning out to be an original IP or anything other than an MMORPG.

[lukeiamyourdad]

BioWare and LucasArts could surprise us with something else I guess but I don't see this project turning out to be an original IP or anything other than an MMORPG.

 

 

There's nothing indicating an original IP, but I don't see your reasoning for this being an MMORPG. Although I'm not closed to the idea, I feel that it's only one of the possibilities, with none of the others having more or less chances of being true.

 

The success of World of Warcraft certainly has pushed the industry to produce more MMORPGs, but that doesn't mean that every RPG made in the future has this specter of the MMO lying over its head. True, MMOs, when successful, can bring in huge amounts of revenue. When they are successful.

[Char Ell]

LIAYD, keeping me honest.

 

My reasons for believing that the BioWare/LucasArts project is an MMORPG are as follows:

1) Why go to the effort of creating a joint domain, lucasartsbioware.com, for a single player RPG? Wouldn't it make more sense just to go with the standard developer/publisher relationship if that is all it's going to be?

 

2) Why would BioWare go back to developing a SPRPG for a licensed IP when they've been doing just fine with making games for their own IP? After all, BioWare did turn down the opportunity to develop a KotOR sequel. Plus BioWare had plenty of funding from their parent company, VG Holdings, so there aren't any apparent financial reasons for BioWare to go back to making SPRPG's for licenses.

 

3) BioWare is making their first foray into an MMORPG and being able to use a high profile licensed IP like Star Wars for the game would help immensely with garnering attention ergo a successful launch. Look at what BioWare did with their first handheld title. A licensed IP (Sonic). This is a strategy BioWare has already employed with SPRPG's for PC and the strategy has been proven to be a successful one for them. Use licensed IP's to help get started in a new genre/platform and then as the development experience is gained and reputation is established for that genre/platform the company can move forward with developing titles using original IP.

[lukeiamyourdad]

LIAYD, keeping me honest.

 

My reasons for believing that the BioWare/LucasArts project is an MMORPG are as follows:

1) Why go to the effort of creating a joint domain, lucasartsbioware.com, for a single player RPG? Wouldn't it make more sense just to go with the standard developer/publisher relationship if that is all it's going to be?

 

2) Why would BioWare go back to developing a SPRPG for a licensed IP when they've been doing just fine with making games for their own IP? After all, BioWare did turn down the opportunity to develop a KotOR sequel. Plus BioWare had plenty of funding from their parent company, VG Holdings, so there aren't any apparent financial reasons for BioWare to go back to making SPRPG's for licenses.

 

3) BioWare is making their first foray into an MMORPG and being able to use a high profile licensed IP like Star Wars for the game would help immensely with garnering attention ergo a successful launch. Look at what BioWare did with their first handheld title. A licensed IP (Sonic). This is a strategy BioWare has already employed with SPRPG's for PC and the strategy has been proven to be a successful one for them. Use licensed IP's to help get started in a new genre/platform and then as the development experience is gained and reputation is established for that genre/platform the company can move forward with developing titles using original IP.

 

 

1- Knowing that it's co-developed, it might have been a good idea to make such a domain to solidify the partnership.

 

2- There's always a possibility that LucasArts might have come up with a good offer for them. Maybe not monetary, but a conjunction of factors might have changed their minds about making a sequel to the two KotORs. What factors? Could be anything from an interesting monetary offer to better freedom then what might have been offered for making KotOR 2. The truth is, I don't exactly know, but I'm just mentioning possibilities.

 

3- That is only assuming their MMO is indeed a Star Wars game and that this partnership is exactly about that. It would be kind of weird to try to spearhead the market with two different MMOs. I get the feeling however that this partnership is something relatively new. I could certainly be wrong though.

[Jvstice]

No. I don't think a grim fandago mmo is realistic. I do think you may be a little overly quick to pigeonhole them.

 

It could be a matter of hoping for the best and making plans for the possibility just in case. As to the joint domain, why couldn't it be possible that they are setting up a foundation to build on if their partnership with a Kotor 3 project goes well. Then they would already have in place the infrastructure to market other Pre - Darth Bane rpg's either from the KOTOR time frame or not. I wouldn't want to bet on this possibility at this point either, but it doesn't seem any less likely to me.

 

Not being on the inside of the game industry, all we know is that they are laying groundwork for a potentially long term partnership. I don't know that you can say more than that at this point with just the information we know now.

[Char Ell]

First, I want to state for the record that I'm not saying I know exactly what the BioWare/LucasArts project will be. I am stating my opinions on what I think it will be based off what I've read and researched on BioWare and LucasArts over the past year or so.

- That is only assuming their MMO is indeed a Star Wars game and that this partnership is exactly about that. It would be kind of weird to try to spearhead the market with two different MMOs. I get the feeling however that this partnership is something relatively new. I could certainly be wrong though.

Well, the lucasartsbioware.com domain was registered on Oct. 11, the same day that EA announced they were purchasing BioWare and Pandemic Studios. That says to me that the details of how the joint BioWare/LucasArts project would be handled had been worked out during the acquisition process. I think it's likely this deal between LA and BioWare was reached some time ago and there was a lot of behind-the-scenes activity to work out how the joint BioWare/LA project was going to be handled with EA entering the picture.

As to the joint domain, why couldn't it be possible that they are setting up a foundation to build on if their partnership with a Kotor 3 project goes well. Then they would already have in place the infrastructure to market other Pre - Darth Bane rpg's either from the KOTOR time frame or not.

I try never to say never but the only reason I see for such a partnership to exist is if the game is an MMORPG. BioWare knows it will have EA as its publisher going forward. BioWare didn't need LucasArts. The only reason for BioWare and LucasArts to partner up is to work on a LucasArts-owned IP and it doesn't make sense to me for this joint partnership to exist for a SPRPG. BioWare has been there, done that, and moved on in the SPRPG world. I see no compelling reason for them to go back to licensed IP's in that genre.

[tk102]

BioWare has been there, done that, and moved on in the SPRPG world. I see no compelling reason for them to go back to licensed IP's in that genre.

It'd be a safe bet for easy money.

[Jvstice]

But E.A. may see things differently than the people formerly calling the shots at Bioware before their acquisition. Not saying that I know it is the case, just that it's possible and that we don't know.

[True_Avery]

Sure.... if you completely forget that LA cut two months from that schedule...

 

Check your facts - LA cut two months from that schedule. Given that the production time was a year, I would humbly assume that just might be of relevance.

I had forgotten about that, and you have indeed proven pretty much everything I said as false thought.

 

[insert sigh here] Sure... Of course Bioware can do K3. Who says they can't? The problem is that we know they won't, because they have repeatedly said that they will not and are not working on K3. What parallel dimension do you live in, where they have not said so?

I was speaking in term if Bioware was in fact making the game. I completely agree and personally think that a KOTOR game is very unlikely, but still possible. As I have asked, please present me proof that it is being made and anything before hand is pointless debate.

 

Sure they can. Statistics lie every day.

 

But you're right, of course - none of KotOR's success has ANYTHING to do with a rich background established by the comic books that the game was named after... perish the thought!

And I see great comic books made into terrible movies everyday. Your point?

 

It takes a good director, a good team to turn something that is great into something equally great. It takes an ignorant or average team to turn a great story pretty sour. As you have said, the team was cut time and had its beginning planning process destroyed by LA due to the original script having nothing to do with KOTOR. And I shall change my opinion and place more blame on LA for TSL over Obsidian, but if I was Obsidian I wouldn't of taken the job in the first place after being treated like that. If a marriage starts with zero information followed by barking orders, I would get divorced immediately... and if I was in Obsidian's shoes, I would have quit or threatened to quit for being treated like trash. I would have held out for a better shot, or let LA pick on another company. Who knows maybe LA would have been better with another company, but probably not. Better release something complete and smooth with a good company than release something that is uneven and full of holes for a company that treats you like dirt.

 

Totally subjective. KotOR is better IMPLEMENTED (because Bioware, unlike Obsidian, were actually allowed to finish the game), but TSL had the better plot IMHO.

I agree on the implementation, but we differ on story opinions and I am glad of it. Makes you better for kicking down my poorly written arguement, and I mean that in no way to be offensive.

 

Now, you have a right to your opinion, but to state that TSL is poorly written as a matter of fact is just untrue, because it comes down to personal taste.

Agreed, and I was wrong to state it as fact. What I feel I was trying to state that the story was uneven, incomplete, and full of plot holes. But, as you have said, most of that blame can be placed on LA.

 

1. TSL isn't left open for fan fiction?!?

Everything is left over for fanfiction or porn

Again, I overstepped my thoughts. But, I believe there is a line between fiction to take off a polished game and fiction to fill in massive gaps in a plot.

 

2. TSL, unlike KotOR, was intentionally written for the purpose of a subsequent sequel. It's open-ended by design, not by omission or neglect. So your position is founded on a completely flawed assumption.

Fair enough. I would argue, but you facts on LA and the time constraints make anything I would say fall in upon itself.

 

LA will realise the world does not revolve around them? Sure... If they can see the sky for all the flying pigs...

Agreed

 

Seriously, there is no way I can imagine that this agreement between LA and Bioware came about AFTER Bioware was bought by EA. I can ONLY imagine it if the deal was struck (and signed) before EA bought Bioware and then kept secret. Now, you're not going to hear either side admit to this - at least for a long time - because it will benefit neither. But no matter how you look at it, this deal will now mean that LA's deal with Bioware will make money for EA, which means it cuts into LA's profits. And there is no way LA is okay with that IMHO, because no matter how well the game(s) do(es), LA will always be thinking, "gee, we could have made even more money," because that's what business is like. It's not personal, it's just business.

Those thoughts crossed my mind more than once, and I would not be suprised in the least if you were proven right.

 

We finally agree on something...

The point of the first half of my post was mainly just to rant, so I wasn't expecting a single person to agree with me. In fact, I had the feeling I was very off in a few areas but instead of looking it up I left it for someone like you to rip it apart and tell me what about the arguement was wrong.

 

In all honesty, I should have ranted, deleted the first half of my post, and just kept the second half but, oh well. You did a fine job showing me my errors.

 

You know, I tend to agree with that... Because the only alternative for LA is to acknowledge that they butchered TSL themselves, and so that it could happen with any game where they pushed the deadline.

I couldn't agree more now.

 

Sophistry. If there was proof, discussion and speculation would be moot and so not take place.

Very true, it does ruin the point doesn't it. Just seems silly to flip out and make 4 threads for every rumor that pops up.

 

Au contraire. If it now turns out not to be KotOR in any way, then I'll actually be overjoyed. I'm "screaming in agony" exactly because I'm not getting my hopes up but preparing for the worst. To quote Garak, "I alway hope for the best. Experience - unfortunately - has taught me to expect the worst."

True, and aftering looking through this I can understand why.

 

I think so, and I have long since explained why and how. But it does depend on your perspective, of course. If you think that Revan and/or exile are gods than will defeat any enemy and overcome any obstacle ever, then you'll naturally be disappointed in any event, because that is never true of ANY character in ANY plot. If TSL made any mistake, then it was in how it failed to deflate the exaggerated view some people have of Revan and even adding to it IMHO.

Indeed, many of the dialog on Revan made him/her out to be some Anakin copy. Pretty much stuck a knife in Revan's fanbase and let more of the crazed fans ooz in. And yes, any story that simply has you as a God isn't all that deep, thats why Kotor is unique from Star Wars: The good guy does not always win in them if you choose.

 

Being on a "KotOR high" seems unlikely given how much time has passed since the last installment. People are not on a high - they're just annoyed that they've been waiting for years and there STILL is no KotOR3 on the horizon or even news of it. If LA had said that KotOR games were dead, then it would be easier, because then we could at least mourn their demise and reminisce about the games and how great they were. As it is we're all in Limbo and stuck there...

Yes, that would indeed be a better was of putting it. The majority of the blame for the mass of useless posts can be placed onto the more crazed part of the community, but as you said... discussion is discussion.

 

Unfortunately, it's pretty much canon that Exile is female, so if anyone ever writes a tie-in novel, it's going to contain that horrendous nightmare of a love interest. Fortunately, we can probably dodge it in most other mediums.

Besides, we cannot seem to have a KOTOR thread without at least one debate with two or more people debating on what gender exile/revan was. Those, above all else, are erking me the most. The gender's were placed as "canon" because they needed a gender to write in the Star Wars books and wiki articles. Get over it, accept it, and move on with your Star Wars lives.

[Linky Triforce]

It may be a star wars MMORPG that bioware is going to make, but who ever said it will be a Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG? It could be a Clones Wars MMORPG or a future Yuuzhang Vong MMORPG, or even in the Older Republic at the time with Exar Kun(before kotor 1)

 

Personally I don't care, just as long as there is an star wars MMORPG alternative to Star Wars Galaxies