The Jedi Problem

[John Galt]

I've often heard it said that implementing Jedi in a MMO would be impossible, or at least extremely difficult, as we've seen both flavors of solution in SWG, extremely restrictive, and open to all.

 

How do you think Jedi should be implemented in a hypothetical "KotOR-era" MMO(I'd assume Mando wars or early Jedi Civil War, when there actually were a quite a few jedi)?

[smhiggz]

I think that it would be a good idea if the setting for this hypothetical mmo was during the Jedi Civil War.

 

This is because both the Jedi and Sith are trying to bolster their ranks inorder to wage war aginst one another. Also this is a period where there are two distinct sides (Republic/Jedi and Sith) in a distinct conflict (Jei Civil War). Unlike in SWG where there is supposed to be a ragtag group of rebels waging guerilla warfare against the Empire. This way there could be numerous players as Jedi without disrupting the setting of the games.

 

And as far as Jedi/Sith being there all powerful beings that they are often portrayed as in the movies, I got the impression when playing K1 and K2 that an experienced Jedi/Sith was just about as hard to kill as an experienced bounty hunter, smuggler, spy, commando etc.

 

In the words of Atton Rand "Jedi aren't that hard to kill, you know." You just need to know how to go about killing them.

[SilentScope001]

Don't implement Jedi.

 

Jedi are far too overrated anyway. Besides, most MMOs are all about classes and specialization anyway, with medics helping out the tanks and the tanks providing cover for the nukers. So, we won't miss the Jedi. Just keep regular old Sith and Republic military units and use the Jedi as SPECIAL NPCs.

 

Even in the missions the players face in SWG, it feels as though you are just a cog in the machine, even if you are of the Jedi class. So, no real need to have the Jedi class.

[Lito Starkiller]

Lots and lots of AI characters as well?

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Easy. No Jedi. At all.

 

I'm no MMO expert, but the only MMO I've ever tried out had a lot of "Do this for me, and I'll give you something which you can then use to persuade this other guy to let you do something for him, then he'll give you something that you can use to persuade this next guy to do something for him," or "Kill 14 skeletons, and I'll give you a shiny new potion... I don't really know why I want you to kill exactly 14 skeletons, but... do it anyway." Jedi don't really seem like the type of people to run around like a lab rat doing these random odd-jobs for store owners. I don't really see how they can be implemented realistically.

[Jeff]

Not letting players be Jedi would be silly. Thats one of the main reasons why a MMO in the KotOR universe would work so well, because there were a lot of Jedi. And as we can see from Galaxies, everybody wants to be a Jedi. I know I would be pretty disappointed if I couldn't be a Jedi.

[True_Avery]

Having thousands of Jedi wouldn't make sense, but also having none would ruin the popularity of the game. It really depends on where in time the MMO would be set, and what the balance would be.

 

Having other player classes and limited Jedi is what made Galaxies work so well. It was when the patch came that let everybody be Jedi that killed the game once and for all. So, why not make a sort of Galaxies clone? It was a fantastic game up until LA gave in to the casual gamers and ruined it for everybody.

 

I dunno about you, but having thousands of Jedi running around buying stuff with credits, dancing naked in the streets and in bars getting smashed would ruin the game just as easy as if you couldn't play them at all. Besides, as has been said, Jedi are overrated to an extent.

 

I'd much rather be a professional Bounty Hunter or something, seeing as many of the better ones, like Jango and Boba, have been known to kill Jedi for a living. Being a Jedi would be fun, but having everybody be a Jedi or Sith would ruin the epic feeling very very quickly. Whats the point of being 1% of the galaxies population, gifted with supernatural powers and a beam of plasma when you are not unique in any way at all compaired to everybody else?

 

Remember, even as a Jedi you would not be Revan or Exile. You would be the Jedi cannon fodder that Revan and Exile killed like flies on their way from point A to point B.

 

Do I have a real opinion on how to do Jedi/Sith? No, not really. But, for the time being, I will trust Bioware with this seeing as they know more about making games than I do.

[adamqd]

Well if its called "Knights" of the old republic then there must be Jedi, so either figure out a valid way to use them, or call it something else.

But as said before, if it is set roughly around the previous games, the Jedi Civil war is probably the most suitable time period, although as I said in another thread, the new Sith wars (2000-1000 BBY) would be a good time to have it, as you have a thousand years of war to play with, thousands of Jedi and Sith, and less chance of messing up the space time continuum.

[Tommycat]

I would say make it random force sensitivity. Not every person should be able to become a Jedi. Or alternately they could limit the number of jedi(and dark jedi) allowed to be logged in.

[dcinroc]

Having other player classes and limited Jedi is what made Galaxies work so well. It was when the patch came that let everybody be Jedi that killed the game once and for all. So, why not make a sort of Galaxies clone? It was a fantastic game up until LA gave in to the casual gamers and ruined it for everybody.

 

But, what happens to new players once the Jedi limit is filled?

 

When word spreads that new players can't be Jedi, that arbitrary distinction you want will effectively cap the player pool.

 

Very nice for those who signed up early, but unfair to those who come later.

 

Unless you think that only you deserve such status, while the rest are merely "casual" gamers underserving of the full experience. Very elitist, imo.

[Tommycat]

But, what happens to new players once the Jedi limit is filled?

 

When word spreads that new players can't be Jedi, that arbitrary distinction you want will effectively cap the player pool.

 

Very nice for those who signed up early, but unfair to those who come later.

 

Unless you think that only you deserve such status, while the rest are merely "casual" gamers underserving of the full experience. Very elitist, imo.

Actually the limited jedi he was talking about was because of the difficulty in achieving Jedi status. Everyone had the potential, it was just a very LOOOOOONG wait to become one. On top of that being a jedi meant risking permadeath.

[lukeiamyourdad]

First off, on the point of no Jedi...

 

Not possible. People whined enough about the Battlefront franchise not having playable Jedi that Pandemic added them in the second game. It wasn't necessary at all, but when people think Star Wars, people want Jedi. Very few games have been successful without them, only flight sims and that because you can't ride on top of a Tie Fighter into battle swinging your lightsaber wildly. That's the unfortunate reality of the Star Wars franchise.

 

Restriction of number of Jedi...

 

It would seem silly to put quotas and make Jedi very hard to acquire. People obviously want to play as a Jedi, as demonstrated by Galaxies, so when I'm paying 15$ a month, I want to have that experience too. Certainly, a lot of people would like to play a non-Jedi and things like that should be implemented.

 

Restriction based on the number of Jedi/Sith logged in...

 

Frankly, unless your life revolves about sitting around waiting in queue to enter and play your Jedi/Sith character, this is really a bad idea. People pay good money to play, not to sit around being told the quota has been filled and that they need to play another class.

 

Nuker, healer, tank...

 

Jedi Sentinel/Watchman, Jedi Consular/Master, Jedi Guardian/Weapons Master.

Sith Sentinel/Assassin or Sith Consular/Master, make up something, Sith Guardian/Marauder.

 

Thank you come again.

 

 

 

With that being said, I still think the best course of action is to make everyone a Jedi. Then there's no problem. Having hundreds of Jedi running around is non-believable? Remember that MMOs are divided into different servers and if a possible KotOR MMO succeeds, you won't have 3 million Jedi running around all at once.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

The only way I think including Jedi would work well is if they placed big restrictions on the Jedi class. Not restrictions on what you have to do to become one, but the abilities you have if you choose to be one - armor restrictions, disadvantages against certain other classes, areas on each planet where using the Force is restricted, increased Force recharge, etc. The movies make it clear that Jedi aren't all-powerful, and they shouldn't be treated as such in a MMORPG.

[Jeff]

Well said Luke. As both of us are experienced mmo players I think its easier for us to see what would work and what would not. I think you should have the option to be a non-Jedi if you want but I think everybody should be allowed to be a Jedi if they want.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The only way I think including Jedi would work well is if they placed big restrictions on the Jedi class. Not restrictions on what you have to do to become one, but the abilities you have if you choose to be one - armor restrictions, disadvantages against certain other classes, areas on each planet where using the Force is restricted, increased Force recharge, etc. The movies make it clear that Jedi aren't all-powerful, and they shouldn't be treated as such in a MMORPG.

 

 

Of course, they would not be all powerful beings, but in the context of an RPG, they certainly are more powerful then the average schmoe.

 

I disagree about disadvantages against certain classes. Although it works relatively well in SP, in an MP environment, people will cry imbalance. It is unfair for a class to have some inherent dueling advantage against another.

 

During a battlefield encounter for example, a Jedi played by me encounters an Bounty Hunter, who has an inherent bonus in fighting against any Jedi classes. I might as well, remove my hands from the keyboard, let him kill me and wait to be resurrected or whatever they'll call that. Remember that this is MP, logic is very different.

 

 

Well said Luke. As both of us are experienced mmo players I think its easier for us to see what would work and what would not. I think you should have the option to be a non-Jedi if you want but I think everybody should be allowed to be a Jedi if they want.

 

 

hehe, I hardly call myself that experienced I once got tanking tips from a Warlock. Really nice fellow though

 

Anyway, the problem I have with implementing Jedi classes as well as non-Jedi is a question of who will play them. I don't want the developers to waste time and energy into classes that people don't play. I'm just basing this on the assumption that the vast majority of players will ignore non-Jedi.

 

It's the same thing about quotas and restricting it only to the most hardcore players. This isn't some special hard to acquire item we're talking about, it's an entire character class. Let's say for example, a server has 5000 active players, not counting the alt characters. Only 50 of them are force users, Sith or Jedi, because only they have managed to grind/do the quests/do something insane, to get there. Why bother making gameplay mechanics, force powers, animations, clothing, lightsabers, for only 1% of the population? Of course, the numbers I chose make it seem really low, but I chose them because it sounds more powerful

[True_Avery]

When I think about it, Matrix Online gave me a similar feeling of loss... people everywhere with superpowers in the matrix, when there are supposed to be a limited amount.

 

But when I actually played the game it fit and played so well that it made me rethink my opinion of it. They made it work, they made it pretty balanced, and all in all I thought it made some sense and added some fun to the game. You also weren't al powerful... there were plenty of things that would whip your f***ing body around like a doll. Agents for example.

 

So when I see hundreds of Jedi running around, I'm reminded of Matrix Online and the subtle class system they had that worked near perfectly... so after thinking on that, I might just reconsider my opinion of many Jedi. It could actually be pretty damn fun.

 

I still would like to play something like a bounty hunter, but after thinking about the above I am placing doubts on that idea. Now that I have a double opinion on this, I'll sit in the gray and wait too see how this all ends up.

[Tommycat]

Well I would rather there be something OTHER than jedi to play. I prefer smuggler/scoundrel types. Not to mention there are a number of people who love the star wars aspect, but would rather not be jedi. I would say it's probably best to allow the other classes, and you become Force Sensitive. After you become Force sensitive you can get training with either a Sith Master or a Jedi master. Of course you could deny the training altogether. I know I would play as a smuggler. If they don't allow smuggler in the game, you'll see a smuggler being role played. I definately hope there are more than 2 professions in the game(Jedi/Sith with 3 subclasses). People like choices. Its part of the reason people liked the original SWG with 32 professions.

[Taos]

How do you think Jedi should be implemented in a hypothetical "KotOR-era" MMO?

 

Personally, I would like to see something similar to what SWG had in the pre-cu era. I believe they did it right, everyone had the opportunity to become "force sensitive" and maybe even a jedi one day. I like the fact they were hunted by BH's if their "visibility" became too high. If the BH sucessfully hunted and killed the jedi, there was a huge chunk of xp loss.

 

I'd like it to be less grinding then what was experienced pre-cu. After doing the quests, visiting the various POI's and hours of mindless grinding, it took me about 10 months total to go from force sensitive to full template Jedi Knight [ I was a village unlock]. Which included the padawan/knight trials.

 

I gotta say, for the first two months of trying to grind my jedi template away, I was very stressed out and hoping a player or NPC wouldn't suddenly show up and give me visibilty. The stress level went down considerably once I got master lightsaber. This was not easy....and I'm not saying it was super hard, but it simply took a lot of time and focus. And needless to say I didn't answer my phone much either lol.

 

The main problem with this in SWG was the fact the timeline the game was set in, it simply didn't allow for that many jedi [of course, for all we know these same jedi could have been scattered and in hiding - totally different conversation]. Though expansions #2 "Rage of the Wookiees" and #3 "Trials of Obi-Wan" didn't exactly fall into the timeline either, they just tried to cash in on the movies-which is the same way I feel about what they did with jedi. Funny how I rarely heard the same "continuity" people complain about the expansions as they did with jedi. Anyways, I think it would be great system for a Kotor era type mmo - if one were to exist.

 

Ok, getting tired, thoughts are scattered a bit...i'm sure I missed something.

[John Galt]

My ideas:

 

Make a "force sensitive" trait random among new players, giving ambient bonuses to any profession they choose(since not all force sensitives became Jedi), but also adding a few risks, like offering bonuses to Bounty Hunters to kill force sensitives, maybe attracting a little attention from random-encountered NPC assassins and Jedi-hunters.

 

If a player were to get "force sensitive," he or she could apply to become a Jedi or sith, and the training process would have to be rather difficult. Once fully trained, life would become VERY difficult for Jedi, being hunted constantly by assassins, bounty hunters, etc. This could be done by having the Sith, Mandalorians, or whatever the opposition group is, post huge bounties on Jedi.

 

Not a very developed idea, but I think it would certainly be better than quotas.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The more I think about it, the more I prefer an idea of allowing Force sensitivity and powers to absolutely everyone. It won't stop you to be a gunslinger, scoundrel, bounty hunter or whatever, but would put everyone on equal footing without the need of any artificial barrier.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to make Jedi status so hard to achieve. There's too many risk involved. First, making it too easy and then everyone will be a super-soldier. Second, making too hard and have people pissed at their inability of being a Jedi because they don't have the time and strength to play that much time just for an achievement. Taking lessons from World of Warcraft, making something too restricted to only a few is not a good idea to market an MMO when the trend is to lower grinding to acquire anything.

[HQ|Delta 07]

My ideas:

 

Make a "force sensitive" trait random among new players, giving ambient bonuses to any profession they choose(since not all force sensitives became Jedi), but also adding a few risks, like offering bonuses to Bounty Hunters to kill force sensitives, maybe attracting a little attention from random-encountered NPC assassins and Jedi-hunters.

 

If a player were to get "force sensitive," he or she could apply to become a Jedi or sith, and the training process would have to be rather difficult. Once fully trained, life would become VERY difficult for Jedi, being hunted constantly by assassins, bounty hunters, etc. This could be done by having the Sith, Mandalorians, or whatever the opposition group is, post huge bounties on Jedi.

 

Not a very developed idea, but I think it would certainly be better than quotas.

 

 

If there are huge amounts of bounty on Jedi's you need to put a huge amount on Sith's too. Wouldn't be all that fair that if you play as a Jedi you have always to be cautious not to get killed by a Bounty Hunter but as a Sith you can walk through every city and evrybody says "Hi, how's the business going?"

 

 

Therefore my idea is to give Jedi's certain restrictions. For Example no heavy armors. Only Robes, mabye some special one's like Arca Jeth's robe and so on.

Only powers of their side. A Jedi who uses the Darth vader grib is imo not very likely(leave Katarn out of this:D). I think a group of Jedi's who constantly heal each other and use some protecting powers is very hard to deal with.

 

Of course your amount of "mana" is limited. Then no Light siders together with darksiders. If a jedi wants to become a sith then fine, but he has to give up the special force powers and same ith Sith's to jedi's of yourse;)

 

Oh And don't let the jedi be a class to start from the beginnig with. It sounded relly cool how it was in SWG before NGE. Make a huge Quest for it. And please Bioware/LA do not, I say again DO NOT tell everybody what you'll have to do for it.

 

 

Ok now to the point "How do I as xyz(insert a class here except jedi/sith;))kill a jedi?". Quite difficult I admit. Like mentioned above certain restrictions to the jedi. No super heavy armors for them, and maybe only the additional ability to use a blaster pistol. I hate the sight of Jedi's walking around with a rocket luncher (agan leave Katarn out of this:D). A RL could be a method to kill one. Only high Jedi/Sith can "steer" the rocket in another direction.

 

I'm still thinking how other classes are balanced against Forceusers.

 

but I'm tired and heading to bed in a few minutes.

[John Galt]

It goes without saying that Sith would have bounties on them too, placed by the Republic, and they would be hunted by the Jedi Order itself, much like Jedi would be hunted by the Sith Empire and Order.

[Nancy Allen``]

Revenge of the Sith, as well as things like KOTOR and others, should show that Jedi are no better or worse than any other character class. I mean, why not have a counter to them being a sniper or ambush they won't even see coming?

[Jvstice]

I like the idea of playing to the strengths of the time period more too.

 

Why not have non jedi soldiers recruitable to either side with skills much like HK-47 describes in his methods of killing Jedi. Poison gas, mines, and the like that a player would have to give up using if they were to try for Jedihood. Also, in the Kotor era, they have actual Echani, warriors sworn never to become Jedi, but who have techniques to make them more effective against Jedi.

[Prime]

I mean, why not have a counter to them being a sniper or ambush they won't even see coming?

But they can sense them coming.