Abortion II: The Reckoning Revenge! IN CINEMASCOPE!

[Totenkopf]

Truth is not relative, except to the relativist.

 

You do realize that you only confirmed my point about green/blue, as I already said it would require a redefining of the "truth" for your pov to make any sense.

 

Are you saying that if people think your a pedophile, you are or just the first part of that block?

 

Well, how do you account for all the lack of learning going on in the school system currently? How many people graduate from schools and still behave like blithering idiots? A person will only learn what they want to learn, regardless of the source.

 

And is that not what we do when we argue abortion? Argue shades of truth in order to get more people to agree with us so that we can use that weight to legislate our POV?

 

Perhaps you do.

[Web Rider]

Truth is not relative, except to the relativist.

 

You do realize that you only confirmed my point about green/blue, as I already said it would require a redefining of the "truth" for your pov to make any sense.

which I said several times throughout my posts. We have redefined 'science' in some schools, we have changed the definition of a 'child' to change the definition of 'life', all in order for a certain POV to make sense.

 

Are you saying that if people think your a pedophile, you are or just the first part of that block?

If enough people think you are a pedophile, then just like the Communist Witch-hunts, people will treat you like one, regardless of the fact that you are not. That fact is unsupported by the people, and therefor ignored.

 

Well, how do you account for all the lack of learning going on in the school system currently? How many people graduate from schools and still behave like blithering idiots? A person will only learn what they want to learn, regardless of the source.

I attribute it to parents, society, and governments that do not encourage the learning and education of others. I attribute it to teachers who don't care, administration who treat students like criminals, and a myriad of societal issues.

 

Perhaps you do.

Have not you been presenting your beliefs and facts to support them in order for I an others to see your POV, and possibly agree with it?

[Corinthian]

So, essentially, there is no truth, only what society believes? And the left like to consider themselves the scientific ones as opposed to the religious right-wingers.

[Web Rider]

So, essentially, there is no truth, only what society believes? And the left like to consider themselves the scientific ones as opposed to the religious right-wingers.

 

and if I were left, that might concern me, or even be remotely accurate. You and I have different truths, is that not evidence? China and the US have different truths, Saudi Arabia and England have different truths.

 

While you may present your opinion that claims there is an objective truth, but the fact that millions would likely take at least one claim against it would be evidence enough that truth is relative.

[Corinthian]

There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

 

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

 

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.

 

You confuse 'truth' with opinion. I can hold a belief that is not true. I cannot hold a truth that is not true, because of the very nature of truth. For example, there either is or there is not a God. People overstate the shades of grey.

[Web Rider]

There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

 

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

 

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.

 

You confuse 'truth' with opinion. I can hold a belief that is not true. I cannot hold a truth that is not true, because of the very nature of truth. For example, there either is or there is not a God. People overstate the shades of grey.

 

"facts" and "truths" are not always the same things.

[Totenkopf]

which I said several times throughout my posts. We have redefined 'science' in some schools, we have changed the definition of a 'child' to change the definition of 'life', all in order for a certain POV to make sense.

 

Seems to me that it's not the definition of life that's at stake, but rather a matter of when it starts (more for social than medical reasons). Afterall, we all know that an inseminated human ovum will only develop into a human being and no a cat or other animal.

 

 

If enough people think you are a pedophile, then just like the Communist Witch-hunts, people will treat you like one, regardless of the fact that you are not. That fact is unsupported by the people, and therefor ignored.

But your logic dictates that if they believe you are, you are. Not merely that you will be treated like that. An important distinction that you keep ignoring.

 

I attribute it to parents, society, and governments that do not encourage the learning and education of others. I attribute it to teachers who don't care, administration who treat students like criminals, and a myriad of societal issues.

 

But what about the students who don't want to be bothered learning? Don't they carry a lion's share of the responsibility? You can give a child a book, but you can't actually force him to learn something if he won't cooperate.

 

Have not you been presenting your beliefs and facts to support them in order for I an others to see your POV, and possibly agree with it?

 

Difference is that, unlike you, I don't buy into the relativist distinction of "yours"/"mine" when it comes to the facts. They are or are not.

[Corinthian]

My thesaurus disagrees with you, Web Rider.

[Web Rider]

Seems to me that it's not the definition of life that's at stake, but rather a matter of when it starts (more for social than medical reasons). Afterall, we all know that an inseminated human ovum will only develop into a human being and no a cat or other animal.

it may also die, or be seriously deformed. IF a correctly developed sperm inseminates a correctly developed ovum, that ovum MAY attach itsself to the utirine lining and MAY develop into a fetus posessing human DNA and then MAY continue to develop into a correctly formed human male, female, or "other".

 

But your logic dictates that if they believe you are, you are. Not merely that you will be treated like that. An important distinction that you keep ignoring.

Americans are so quick to ignore the group for the individual. What does your personal truth matter if nobody believes you?

 

But what about the students who don't want to be bothered learning? Don't they carry a lion's share of the responsibility? You can give a child a book, but you can't actually force him to learn something if he won't cooperate.

When a child does not want to learn, we must address why. Rare to never is the reason "I don't like learning."

 

Difference is that, unlike you, I don't buy into the relativist distinction of "yours"/"mine" when it comes to the facts. They are or are not.

Proof only, that your opinion, not the facts, differer from me.

 

My thesaurus disagrees with you, Web Rider.

 

Your thesaurus was written by people, who are part of society, which regularly changes the definition and meaning of words. In short: your thesaurus means nothing because it's definition is only accurate for the here and now.

[Samuel Dravis]

There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

 

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

 

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.

It is interesting how all of your examples are 1) objective and 2) material. I do agree with that, by the way, but I am curious whether you find whether something without a material component can be assigned truth-values (demons' existence, etc).

[Totenkopf]

it may also die, or be seriously deformed. IF a correctly developed sperm inseminates a correctly developed ovum, that ovum MAY attach itsself to the utirine lining and MAY develop into a fetus posessing human DNA and then MAY continue to develop into a correctly formed human male, female, or "other".

 

Relevance?

Americans are so quick to ignore the group for the individual. What does your personal truth matter if nobody believes you?

 

What difference does this make? A rock is a rock, by any other name b/c of it's composition. You can change the word you use to describe it, but its composition is unaffected by your linguistic gymnastics.

 

When a child does not want to learn, we must address why. Rare to never is the reason "I don't like learning."

 

Yes, and we've already shown that you can learn info from a variety of sources.

 

Proof only, that your opinion, not the facts, differer from me.

 

Actually, only proof that you're a relativist and I'm not.

[Web Rider]

Relevance?

that the birth of what society and genetics would deem a "human" is not the only, and as you seemed to imply, inevtiable outcome of conception.

 

 

What difference does this make? A rock is a rock, by any other name b/c of it's composition. You can change the word you use to describe it, but its composition is unaffected by your linguistic gymnastics.

A rock yes. What about morality? Or god? or laws? or the value of trees? or the taste of fish? If "facts" were all that mattered in the universe, the Spanish Inquisition would never have happened. Hitler would never have murdered millions, and so on. I think it is beyond evident that "facts" are not the ONLY source for "truth".

 

Yes, and we've already shown that you can learn info from a variety of sources.

since you have obviously failed to get my point which I have emphaticlly stated many times, I'm not going to continue this particular line.

 

Actually, only proof that you're a relativist and I'm not.

Proof that your "truth" about life, the universe, and everything, differs from mine because of your stance as a non-relativist.

[Totenkopf]

Unfortunately, you miss on a lot of points yourself. I never asserted that all pregnancies carry to term, only that the end product would only be human in composition. Also, you get too hung up on one example. Concepts like morality may change, but objects don't change just because you seek to redefine them for the sake of your own convenience. If I'm in charge and choose to say that all people with red hair are pedaphiles, and the vast majority of my subjects agree, that still doesn't make it true. You still have to change the meaning of that word and then it loses its original impact.

 

I got your original point about education, which you've refined somewhat along the course of this discussion. People have to learn things to be able to make good/better decisions. Education, though, is not restricted to merely one venue and that's what invalidated your original point (which was that an abstinence based education program by an administration was going to effectively become an info blackout......very overstated, unfortunately).

 

Truth, to have any meaning, must be based in facts. Anything else is just opinion or sheer unsubstantiated speculation. The only truth in them being that you believe them no matter the evidence. If my "truth" is that women have no virtues, that does not make my "truth" remotely realistic, even though I might cling to it and insist otherwise. You'd be more accurate to say "views" in this semantic dance than to fall back on choosing "truth" as your operative phrase.

[Darth InSidious]

ooooo, a Nazi comparason. You wound me....oh, wait, no you don't, since I know all you're doing is going: "OMG! You think some people are less human! You teh Nazi!!11! lol"

Funny.

 

And yet, somehow, amidst all that rhetoric, you completely failed to offer a rebuttal of my point.

 

Also, it's "comparison".

[Ray Jones]

There is one truth. Everything else is false.

Is that so?

 

The world is round.

Really? Was it 100000000000000 years ago? What's in 5000000000000 years? Is the 'world' round then?

 

The sky is blue.

Night sky ain't. Mars' sky ain't. etc

 

150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse.

Too hot for what? There's like 6 million °C within the sun, and I like that.

 

Blood is red.

Well not exactly.

Hemoglobin

 

Hemoglobin is the principal determinant of the color of blood in vertebrates. Each molecule has four heme groups, and their interaction with various molecules alters the exact color. In vertebrates and other hemoglobin-using creatures, arterial blood and capillary blood are bright red as oxygen impacts a strong red color to the heme group. Deoxygenated blood is a darker shade of red with a bluish hue; this is present in veins, and can be seen during blood donation and when venous blood samples are taken. Blood in carbon monoxide poisoning is bright red, because carbon monoxide causes the formation of carboxyhemoglobin. In cyanide poisoning, the body cannot utilize oxygen, so the venous blood remains oxygenated, increasing the redness. While hemoglobin containing blood is never blue, there are several conditions and diseases where the color of the heme groups make the skin appear blue. If the heme is oxidized, methemoglobin, which is more brownish and cannot transport oxygen, is formed. In the rare condition sulfhemoglobinemia, arterial hemoglobin is partially oxygenated, and appears dark-red with a bluish hue (cyanosis), but not quite as blueish as venous blood.

 

Veins in the skin appear blue for a variety of reasons only weakly dependent on the color of the blood. Light scattering in the skin, and the visual processing of color play roles as well.

 

Skinks in the genus Prasinohaema have green blood due to a buildup of the waste product biliverdin.

 

Hemocyanin

 

The blood of most molluscs, including cephalopods and gastropods, as well as some arthropods such as horseshoe crabs contains the copper-containing protein hemocyanin at concentrations of about 50 grams per litre. Hemocyanin is colourless when deoxygenated and dark blue when oxygenated. The blood in the circulation of these creatures, which generally live in cold environments with low oxygen tensions, is grey-white to pale yellow, and it turns dark blue when exposed to the oxygen in the air, as seen when they bleed. This is due to change in color of hemocyanin when is it oxidized. Hemocyanin carries oxygen in extracellular fluid, which is in contrast to the intracellular oxygen transport in mammals by hemoglobin in RBCs.

What would you like, white, green, red, blue, yellow, colourless?

 

Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes.

Depends on how long you stare, and what's before our eyes.

 

The heart is rather important.

When it's not beating?

 

And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

Not when that part of the brain wasn't functional to the begin with, for instance.

 

 

There is no truth at all. There is space, time, and causality.

[Corinthian]

The extermination of Jews was based around that they were less human than the Aryans. So...yeah.

 

Yes, the world was round then, or the world did not exist, in which case the question is moot. Before the world was round it WAS NOT A PLANET and thus not a world. *Price is right failure music*

 

Actually, the night sky IS blue, just a very dark blue that the stars shine through. You'll notice it's not black if you look very closely. Also, failing to use context to determine what I'm referring to is simply being a pain, it's not clever or amusing in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't matter that Mar's sky isn't blue, because I wasn't referring to Mars.

 

Alright, you go to the sun. When the flesh runs off your bones like wax, lights on fire, turns to ash, and is then sucked into the gravity well and becomes raw carbon within the sun, we'll talk again.

 

Again, ignoring context. When I say Blood is Red, It's readily apparent that I'm referring to healthy human blood. Stop ~snipped~.

And stop deliberately flame-baiting. --Jae

 

I said eventually. And staring directly. *Price is right failure music. Again.*

 

Yes, it is. Because when it's not beating, it means someone is dead or close to it. *Price is right failure music...again.*

 

Name one part of the brain that is completely non-functional.

[Jae Onasi]

I've noticed a trend lately with people correcting others' spelling. If you need to do something tacky like that, please do it in PM--it's off-topic when you do it in a post.

 

Also, for those of you whose spelling could be better, try writing your longer posts in Office Writer or Word and using the spellcheck feature. This will make it much easier to understand the points you're trying to make. There are also some Firefox extensions that have spellcheck features built in (e.g. BBCodeXtra). I'm sure other browsers have something similar.

[Rogue Nine]

And how about keeping to the topic at hand? Now there's a novel idea!

[Arcesious]

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2007/01/22/roe-v-wade-memorial-day/

 

So... 50,000,000 abortions since 1973, and 5,000,000 abortions since the Iraq war began. Yeah... Abortion IS out of hand. It must end, or at least be resricted considerably. However, whoever invented condoms was a genius. Imagine what would happen if condoms weren't ever invented. We'd be talking about 100's of millions of abortions then.

 

To quote soemthing from the site i linked: "Yeah, let all the children cry- if they could."

 

How's that for guilt for all this out of control abortion? Huh?

Or have we humans lost our morality and don't feel guilty for murder anymore?

[Totenkopf]

The problem is that the abortionists and their confederates refuse to see the the victims of their slaughter as human. No humans being killed, no murder. It is for them a simple equation.

[mur'phon]

The problem is that the abortionists and their confederates refuse to see the the victims of their slaughter as human. No humans being killed, no murder. It is for them a simple equation.

 

For some, that might be true, others think only the (relativley) few late abortions can be considered murder.

[Achilles]

How's that for guilt for all this out of control abortion? Huh?

"Out of control" compared to what?

Or have we humans lost our morality and don't feel guilty for murder anymore?

By what arguments should we consider the death of non-living things "murder"?

[Corinthian]

I'd say 50 million murders is out of control. *Whistle* We make Hitler and Stalin look tame, at least they weren't carving babies up exclusively.

[Arcesious]

The babies are living beings. One thing no scientist seems to take into equation is this: Where does the soul come from? We are killing living beings.

The abortion rate may be dropping, very slowly, but just how many more deaths will it take before abortioners finally admit their wrongdoing? Ten million? A hundred million? A billion? We must regain our morality. Science is not the answer to everything. You can't put sentient life, a soul, into a equation. It exists, but you don't know how it works. It is murder, and things like this should be treated morally. Where is the conscience of the Human race anymore? I repeat: 50,000,000 deaths and climbing. Hitler and Stalin would be proud.

[mur'phon]

Where does the soul come from?

 

Does it need to exist at all?

 

We are killing living beings.

 

Yes, just as we kill other living beings like cows, pigs, etc

 

but just how many more deaths will it take before abortioners finally admit their wrongdoing?

 

It's not about the number of deaths, you just need to convince us we are killing "persons", and abortion will for the most part end.

 

We must regain our morality.

 

Asuming we have lost it, sure.

 

Science is not the answer to everything. You can't put sentient life, a soul, into a equation. It exists, but you don't know how it works

 

Funny, I tend to consider things that aren't proven to exist to, you know, not exist.

 

It is murder, and things like this should be treated morally.

 

Then what is the morall way?

 

Where is the conscience of the Human race anymore?

 

Where it has always been?

 

Hitler and Stalin would be proud

 

Stalin probably wouldn't mind, Hitler would probably be rather pissed as long as some of those aborted are "aryans".