Kreia's true identity

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such.

Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing.

[Achilles]

Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing.

Perhaps "hijack" would have been a better word choice then.

[SilentScope001]

Whenever I hear about Kae, I always see a young hippie Jedi.

 

That is NOT how I see Kreia. And even if Kreia=Kae, Kreia's personality is so twisted from that of Kae that such a revelation really wouldn't serve the story.

 

Kreia is an old manlipuative hag, with lots of fans, and even more enemies. Let leave it that way.

[Sylwester]

If you read carefuly http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2058/index.html than it's obviously who Kreia once was

[i_shot_the_jedi]

I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much.

 

A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention.

 

However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once. The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae. This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content.

 

It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture.

 

Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts.

 

Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way.

[Achilles]

A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention.

Glad I could help.

 

However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once.

Right (re: all at once), hence my comment about Obsidian trusting their audience not to need to have everything spoon fed to them. Scorchy got it. A few others here seem to have got it too. Some others haven't but I think that's to be expected.

 

The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae.

Indeed, someone that only played as a female Exile would not get part of the story, just as someone who only played male, light side, dark side, etc. I'm not sure how that makes your case though.

 

This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content.

Which would imply that the pieces we do have are somehow insufficient. And indeed for someone wishing to have a smoking gun or spoon-fed plot points that very well seem like reality.

 

It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture.

Indeed, this is one possibility. Another is that the writer, in an effort to increase replay value (one of the stated objectives of the developer, IIRC), made it so that the player would need to play the game more than once from different angles to get all the various pieces necessary to put the entire story together.

 

Really sir, since the Kreia/Kae thing is more "nuance" than "major plot point" does it really need a 5 minute exposition cut scene? Since Kae being Handmaiden's mother would only have significance if Handmaiden was around, wouldn't it make sense to emphasize that during the male storyline? It's becoming more and more obvious that you simply like this other theory better (even though it's significantly more convoluted) and as that's going to be that.

 

Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts.

*something about the earth being flat*

Okay. Thanks for clarifying your position.

 

Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way.

I won't be losing any sleep over it. Hopefully you won't either. Take care.

[Shem]

The whole Kreia as the same person as Kae never sat well with me.

 

It just raises more questions (or statements) to motive if that was going to be the case!

 

-Why wasn’t that revealed in the game itself? Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the game’s events because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

 

-Why hasn’t it been revealed after 3 ½ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for? Don’t say KOTOR III because that would be something that would distract the story of the next chapter of the game series. The only way that would work out well is if both Kreia and Brianna were main characters in that game. That wouldn’t be the case.

Could you imagine if they were to leave hints about the Revan revelation, but never actually revealed in K1, but revealed in TSL? That would be bad storytelling, especially since Revan was just talked about, but was never around in the game.

 

 

-The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game. That means the Handmaiden’s role is has been limited to just stealing the Ebon Hawk, telling your party to lay down their weapons, asking Atris about caring for the Exile once, and other optional conversations you could have with her at the Polar Region. Once you leave, her small role in the game is over.

 

-The hints used to support the theory they’re the same person are easily debunked making it just pure speculation without conclusive facts.

 

-We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. There’s a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg

 

-Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love, but wants to prove that her teachings are right. If love was something she thought was right, she would be in the same boat as Jolee Bindo in how she felt about it. If she did believe in love, she wouldn’t have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct and I don’t think she would dare do that. If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile. She would not change her mind and say the Jedi were right about something after her bitter exile. Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

 

-Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I can’t picture her doing. She likes to be the master; the one in charge; that way she is in control. She’s also someone who prefers to resolve conflicts through pacifism and manipulation, even to a point to play tricks on people’s minds, not violence. I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia “died” during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed. Not everybody who died during the Mandalorian Wars was a part of it.

 

-Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people? She would have manipulated that situation differently and we know she’s good at getting what she wants. If anything, she would have tried to keep, perhaps hide her and use her for her cunning purposes. This reminds that if Kreia wanted to hide Brianna’s existence from the Jedi Council, she would have gotten away with it. Anybody who knows Kreia knows she’s very clever.

 

There are other questions I have thought up in the past about this whole situation that I haven’t brought to attention. If anything, I hope I’ve made enough points why I can’t buy into it so at least you understand my personal point of view.

 

It’s possible that a revelation could come out and say that Kreia and Kae are the game person. If that were to happen, I would be one of the first to admit I was wrong. The only thing that would puzzle me is that some things wouldn’t add up with the whole situation and there would have to be holes to fill so there would be nothing that contracts the revelation. That way it’s not bad story telling. I would find that hard to do to be honest.

 

I’m more in the boat that it’s something that probably will never be resolved. Perhaps “no comment” was mentioned about the situation by Chris Avellone (I believe it was him) was because he wanted to leave something for us to talk about and debate. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have said the same thing just to keep the debate alive and keep something fresh about a game that is many years old. Those who know me best know that is something I’m very capable of doing and enjoy watching people debate and get a few good laughs, especially if I knew I was responsible for the reason why it’s still debated. Maybe it would be a good thing to leave unsolved. That way we have something to talk about for a game that is closing in on four years.

 

Am I here to change your mind? No. What would be the point of that to be honest? Most people who go at each other back and forth trying to change other people’s minds already have made up their minds on what they are going to believe so trying to change it is pointless. The debates become pointless because many times bitter feelings towards the other person you’re debating can develop because both sides are suborn.

 

Once someone sets their mind to something, most likely they’re not going to change it. Life has taught me that many people won’t even accept the truth even when it’s revealed to them, which is why I love Carth’s quote that you see in my signature because I have a great respect for those who can accept the truth when it’s presented in front of them, even if they don’t like it. People’s pride and/or ego are the only thing that holds them back in those situations because they have this obsession about having to be right about almost everything. I’m already seeing signs of this when I skim through this debate.

[Clint_johnston2]

Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

 

DOES THIS MATTER? The point is it was a fun game with a interesting character. She could be one or the other. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but despite my taking the entire day yesterday to read said walkthrough, I'm not this hooked on it.

[Q]

^^^

I think that post was insulting as well as entirely unnecessary.

[Achilles]

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.

It's all there if you put the pieces together.

[jonathan7]

Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

 

Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread?

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Enough lampooning him gentlemen. It won't do any more good.

[JCarter426]

See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.

It's all there if you put the pieces together.

 

 

Back to topic, though...

 

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

 

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?

[Jolly Boots]

 

Back to topic, though...

 

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

 

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?

This may be just my opinion but whatever. Krynda only really offers up a fleshed out backstory , if she is Kreia that is. Offers an explanation (I'm springing to arguments made by both sides here) why she hates love (dead hubby and bad son), hates the Force (the prophecies are kinda screwing her over), who these students whom the Council felt fell to the Dark Side. People don't really come to these revelations all by themselves when sitting around all day. It takes experience to get to Kreia's point. And the fact that the Padawan Massacre of Taris sprung a lot of negative effects which affected more then one would imagine (think economics and the like as well as the butterfly effect). Krynda comes off as a very depressed and lonely teacher sort of lady who is constantly blaming herself. Isn't that why Kreia "fell" (using the word sparingly) in the first place?

 

As for her no longer being with us...I hope not. And I'm not just saying that in hopes that I am right myself. Krynda has a lot to answer for concerning the Covenant and their actions. That and I want her to smack Lucien around some more. Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.

Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?

[JCarter426]

Foreshadowing.

[Clint_johnston2]

Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread?

 

I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

 

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...

[Ravnas]

I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

 

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...

 

Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?

[Jolly Boots]

Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?

Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.

[Totenkopf]

Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?

 

Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.

[Ravnas]

Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.

 

But If he/she has too much time on his hands so he posts but claims to not have enough time to post doesn't that mean*Brain explodes from the logical fallacy and the very hypocrisy of the action*

[JCarter426]

Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.

 

A red shirt for a red herring.

 

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia ), and 2) it also foreshadows that Lucien is going to become Sion, because he's going to make the same mistakes Haazen did. What will happen to Haazen? Who knows? He probably isn't long for this world, considering the condition that he's in. Or maybe Zayne takes him down; that's always a possibility (especially if Krynda is actually dead, and he's the one pulling the strings ).

[Jolly Boots]

Sion being Lucien and Kreia being Krynda still would have more "poetic justice" considering the whole "jealousy of the Miraluka thing" Lucien's got going and then him just getting the bad end of a lightsaber from mommy. But either way would work out.

 

Then there's another Krynda/Kreia similarity.

 

"She's here. Can't you feel her presence?"

 

"No. I mean, yes. I mean --"

 

He senses her yet he doesn't. Obviously something is up with Krynda's lack of "present" appearances. But this is practically Kreia's trademark, making herself so small as to be unnoticed by other Force users. It's funny. As I was reading this page just now, Haazen sounds so much like Kreia. It's practically her speaking through him. Though maybe that's just usual Jedi cryptic.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

A red shirt for a red herring.

 

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia )

I just have the feeling that if they make him Sion, probably Krynda will be Kreia. Something about making Kotor a more family game.

[JCarter426]

Yeah, same here. That's the one reason I don't want Lucien to be Sion.

 

However, I also think that it's possible Krynda is just a red herring as well, if she's actually dead as I suspect. Lucien could still be Sion, and his apprenticeship to Kreia would still fit, as she reminds him so much of his mother. But this may be wishful thinking on my part.