Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

[Achilles]

I am believing in what makes sense to believe.

No you're not. You're believing what you choose to believe. Just like you asserted in post #166.

 

There is no "good reason" believe in god (or any gods for that matter) because there is no evidence for his (her/their) existence. Therefore it does not make sense to believe that.

 

I'm sure that you think that I am still ignoring the point, right?

No, you're not ignoring it here. I think you may be missing it, but that isn't the same thing

 

It was an example, Achilles.

I got that it was an example. If you are now stating that the example doesn't represent the argument you were trying to make, then I think it's safe to say that it was a bad one.

 

Hmmmm.

 

I have.

Really? All of it or just the parts you were instructed to in seminary? Were you ever encouraged to think about what was being said, or was a pastor spoon-feeding his analysis to you?

 

Because if you had read the bible, you would know that god's rules are not simple. They are complicated and frequently contradictory. What's more, god is routinely seen breaking his own rules, which makes the whole "credibility" thing a little difficult to ignore.

 

It does matter. I gave an EXAMPLE, Achilles. An example. I was talking about us (as well as people in general) having different opinions. You say that yours is true, and I say that mine is true.

No sir. The existence of god is not a matter of opinion. Jmac addresses this below so I won't repeat her point.

 

He cannot force us to believe in Him. Well He could, but He doesn't.

Nobody said anything about forcing either. I would encourage you to take a look (REALLY take a look) at how this whole thing work and ask yourself honestly if any of it makes any sense AT ALL.

 

God created the universe.

 

In this universe he creates hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars.

 

Around each of these stars he places planets.

 

On one of these planets he places living things.

 

On this planet he also places a couple of trees and tells his creations not to eat from one of them (even though he could have put the tree anywhere else, made the tree produce something other than fruit, put huge-ass electrical fence or big wall around it, etc).

 

One day the devil shows up (who made him? God did. But technically how Satan turned out wasn't god's fault because Satan got pridefull. But who made pride? God? Let's ignore that and go back to Satan's choice. Wait, choice? Choice means free will. I thought only humans had free will? Stop asking so many questions.)

 

The devil (which god is not responsible for) tricks Eve (who god is not responsible for) into eating from the forbidden tree (which god is not responsible for), which results in Adam and Eve breaking god's rule (which he is not responsible for).

 

So now god has to punish them (wonder why. He's god. Doesn't he get to make the rules?)

 

So punish them he does for a very long time and in various ways until he's decided not to punish them any more (I guess our infinitely benevolent god needed some time to cool off or something).

 

God decided that in order for him not to be mad anymore, he has to transform (part of?) himself into a man, then arrange for that man (himself?) to be tortured and brutally killed (suicide?) so that mankind (his creation) can be forgiven (via his rules) for original sin (which he not only orchestrated but allowed to happen).

 

Really?

[EnderWiggin]

I'm a pastor's son so I can't really get my hands on acid

 

Stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

Well it's nice that you at least admit that you pulled your arguments out of nowhere. Thanks for getting the fact that you lied to win an internet argument off your chest.

 

Too bad he admitted it by accident and will now do nothing to correct his process in the future.

 

I did not lie, I'm a christian I don't lie, I just said things that weren't relevant that's all...

 

What the f*ck? I take that back. THIS is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

EVERYBODY LIES! Don't you watch House?

 

God almighty in heaven - only Jesus is without sin, mofo. If you don't know that, go stab yourself in the eye with a knife. I mean, seriously. I'm a Christian, and I lie every ****ing day.

 

Darth Insidious asked me about Occam's Razor in Kavar's Corner earlier today and I think this is a prime example of how it should be applied.

 

Speaking of House:

Foreman: "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is always the best."

House: "And you think one is simpler than two."

Cameron: "Pretty sure it is, yeah."

House: "Baby shows up. Chase tells you that two people exchanged fluids to create this being. I tell you that one stork dropped the little tyke off in a diaper. You going to go with the two or the one?

 

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

 

I can play too. We are playing "ignore the point by responding with tired cliches" right? What else ya got?

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder" is what I have right now.

 

 

 

F*ck me senseless.

 

_EW_

[Rev7]

Really? All of it or just the parts you were instructed to in seminary? Were you ever encouraged to think about what was being said, or was a pastor spoon-feeding his analysis to you?

Just for the record, I haven't been to 'church' in several months. To tell you the truth, I (my family) hardly ever goes to 'church'. I read the Bible quite frequently. You don't have to go to 'church' to be a christian. I make my own "analysis" BTW.

God created the universe.

 

In this universe he creates hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars.

 

Around each of these stars he places planets.

 

On one of these planets he places living things.

 

On this planet he also places a couple of trees and tells his creations not to eat from one of them (even though he could have put the tree anywhere else, made the tree produce something other than fruit, put huge-ass electrical fence or big wall around it, etc).

 

One day the devil shows up (who made him? God did. But technically how Satan turned out wasn't god's fault because Satan got pridefull. But who made pride? God? Let's ignore that and go back to Satan's choice. Wait, choice? Choice means free will. I thought only humans had free will? Stop asking so many questions.)

 

The devil (which god is not responsible for) tricks Eve (who god is not responsible for) into eating from the forbidden tree (which god is not responsible for), which results in Adam and Eve breaking god's rule (which he is not responsible for).

 

So now god has to punish them (wonder why. He's god. Doesn't he get to make the rules?)

 

So punish them he does for a very long time and in various ways until he's decided not to punish them any more (I guess our infinitely benevolent god needed some time to cool off or something).

 

God decided that in order for him not to be mad anymore, he has to transform (part of?) himself into a man, then arrange for that man (himself?) to be tortured and brutally killed (suicide?) so that mankind (his creation) can be forgiven (via his rules) for original sin (which he not only orchestrated but allowed to happen).

 

Really?

I find it a lot easier to believe than that everything happened by chance and that something came from nothing.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Just for the record, I haven't been to 'church' in several months. To tell you the truth, I (my family) hardly ever goes to 'church'. I read the Bible quite frequently. You don't have to go to 'church' to be a christian. I make my own "analysis" BTW.

 

I find it a lot easier to believe than that everything happened by chance and that something came from nothing.

Only we're not debating what you find easier to believe. We're debating whether or not it's true.

[Rev7]

I was only answering his question.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Uh oh.

[Achilles]

I read the Bible quite frequently.

Well in that case then, I have to question whether you're reading for comprehension or simply to say that you're doing it.

 

I make my own "analysis" BTW.

Yet you're still a christian

 

I find it a lot easier to believe than that everything happened by chance and that something came from nothing.

But you already do: you believe in god.

 

If god gets to exist "outside of time" and all the jazz, then so do the conditions leading up to the big bang. You don't get to have it both ways.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Good question. You can go ahead and look at your own beliefs, at the beliefs of M@RS, and then at my avatar to get your answer.

 

Being told a sin is going to get you into hell is very much different to being told who you are as a person gets you a ticket to hell.

AVERY I HAVE BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU.

 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." However, the word translated as "homosexual" is used to refer to men and can also be translated as "sodomite".

 

Leviticus 18:22 says "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination." This has no mention of "woman lying with woman as she does with man".

 

In short, the Bible allows for the possibility of hot girl-on-girl action and the possibility for it to be videotaped and sold for $19.95 + S&H or sent to me free of charge via Skype.

[Nedak]

In short, the Bible allows for the possibility of hot girl-on-girl action and the possibility for it to be videotaped and sold for $19.95 + S&H or sent to me free of charge via Skype.

 

YEA! Those morons guys really knew how to live didn't they?!

 

What goes at the Last Supper stays at the Last Supper.

[Tyrion]

YEA! Those morons guys really knew how to live didn't they?!

 

What goes at the Last Supper stays at the Last Supper.

 

There's a reason we don't get get to see what's on the opposite side of the room in Da Vinchi's painting.

[Q]

Hmm...

 

Read through this entire thread and, well, there doesn't seem to be any way to prove or disprove the existence or deity of Jesus. Of course I already knew this before I wasted a half an hour of my life reading the thread. It most certainly has provided ample opportunity, however, for people to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they're either arrogant jackasses, or ******* morons, or a little bit of both.

 

Thank you, and God bless.

[Nedak]

And how is this sir?

 

and your comment was a little big arrogant and showed qualities of a jackass.

 

Just an observation.

[Q]

And how is this sir?

Perhaps I should have said that it could not be proven or disproven at the present time given the fact that, AFAIK, mankind has yet to achieve time travel, which is the only way to prove or disprove an event in human history that happened two thousand years ago. For all we know, all of history could be a lie, and we wouldn't know any differently. If the Bible could be a hoax, is it not possible for all of the secular history books to be as well? In my experience, everyone is so full of crap, why should anyone believe anything that anyone has written? At different times in my life, I've been a believer, an agnostic, a Christian and even a Satanist (the only religion where I was actually true to myself), and through all of that I've managed to come to one inescapeable conclusion: that life is pretty futile and pointless no matter what you believe.

 

and your comment was a little big arrogant and showed qualities of a jackass.

 

Just an observation.

Just trying to fit in, here.

 

 

Only one positive conclusion can be made from this thread: We are all equally full of crap.

 

(Calmly awaits hot, flaming death)

 

EDIT: BTW -Has anyone noticed the "Christian Singles" ad on this forum featuring the buxom, bleach-blonde bimbo in a halter top? WTH kind of message are they trying to send?

FORNICATE under command of the king FOR JEEEZUS!!!

[Achilles]

Hmm...

 

Read through this entire thread and, well, there doesn't seem to be any way to prove or disprove the existence or deity of Jesus.

That's not true at all.

 

Regarding the historical Jesus, there are any number of discoveries that if they were to be made, would prove his existence.

 

As for his divinity, well the creator of the clip featured in the first post has provided a way for us to confirm (or not confirm) that any time we wish.

 

Perhaps I should have said that it could not be proven or disproven at the present time given the fact that, AFAIK, mankind has yet to achieve time travel, which is the only way to prove or disprove an event in human history that happened two thousand years ago.

This seems like a rather peculiar statement to make considering all the other things, both before the time of jesus alleged life and after

 

Time travel certainly would make it easier to confirm many of the claims made by christianity, however I think that this line of thinking rather misses the point entirely: why do people believe these things now without evidence?

 

For all we know, all of history could be a lie, and we wouldn't know any differently. If the Bible could be a hoax, is it not possible for all of the secular history books to be as well? In my experience, everyone is so full of crap, why should anyone believe anything that anyone has written?

I would agree that it is possible that many (or all) of our history books could be wrong about many things. I think that we should only accept things insofar as we have good reason to. For instance, if we read in a history book about someone named George Washington I imagine that there are certain things that we could look for that would confirm the existence of said person. It also seems to me that the more information we had, the greater the degree of confidence we should have that he was a real person. Furthermore, the more the information corraborated with the other sources we knew about, the more we should feel confident accepting it. And so on.

 

So if we were to apply this same sort of exercise to someone names Jesus, what do you think would happen? Do we have any contemporary historians that wrote about him? A grave site? Census information? A birth certificate? Testimony from eyewitnesses? Do we have anything that should make us believe with any degree of confidence that a specific person named Jesus ever existed?

 

I see your point and I agree that we should not be quick to accept anything as "true" too quickly. Just because someone wrote something in a book doesn't mean it's real. But I do also think that we are not blind and helpless to discover things.

 

Only one positive conclusion can be made from this thread: We are all equally full of crap.

Some more than others.

 

Take care.

[Q]

I'll admit that I did not watch the clip, but only because I'm, er, bandwidth challenged.

[EnderWiggin]

It most certainly has provided ample opportunity, however, for people to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they're either arrogant jackasses, or ******* morons, or a little bit of both.

 

 

 

_EW_

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Hmm...

 

Read through this entire thread and, well, there doesn't seem to be any way to prove or disprove the existence or deity of Jesus. Of course I already knew this before I wasted a half an hour of my life reading the thread. It most certainly has provided ample opportunity, however, for people to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they're either arrogant jackasses, or ******* morons, or a little bit of both.

 

Thank you, and God bless.

apparently you missed the most important theological breakthrough of the century mainly that god and/or jesus is a fan of hot, wet girl-on-girl action

[Ray Jones]

and that again leads us to the concept of Trinity, girl-on-girl-on...dong-key?

[Tyrion]

apparently you missed the most important theological breakthrough of the century mainly that god and/or jesus is a fan of hot, wet girl-on-girl action

 

Alert the presses. We could get daytime television shows about this ****.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

and that again leads us to the concept of Trinity, girl-on-girl-on...dong-key?

the bible was fairly ambiguous about a lot of stuff (saying "sexually immoral" but not defining "immoral") so if you're willing to do some sweet talking to get into heaven go for it man. now that i mention it, i'm kinda pissed the bible doesnt have a list of prohibited sexual acts i mean if god is all-powerful he's probably got some up his sleeve that we don't even know about yet.

 

Alert the presses. We could get daytime television shows about this ****.

i want to be yelled at by bill o'reilly, he's so dreamy <3

[Nedak]

i want to be yelled at by bill o'reilly, he's so dreamy <3

 

O'Reilly doesn't yell. He cowers and barks like a beaten dog.

[EnderWiggin]

O'Reilly doesn't yell. He cowers and barks like a beaten dog.

 

He does nothing of the sort. I am not even Republican, but come on. He doesn't cower. And barking is the same thing as yelling.

 

So you lied and then agreed, really.

 

_EW_

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY that sounds like yelling to me.

[Nedak]

He does nothing of the sort. I am not even Republican, but come on. He doesn't cower. And barking is the same thing as yelling.

 

Barking in this case would not be barking in an angry manner but more as a cowering defensive manner.

 

 

Also, just sharing my hate for O'Reilly and Fox News.

 

[Kurgan]

Not to beat a dead horse (thread), but...

 

Hmm, sorry I missed this. I've actually spent quite a bit of time arguing with the "Jesus Mythers" (people who insist that Yeshua bar Yosef, aka Jesus of Nazareth called Christ, was not a historical figure, but a purely mythical character). They're a largely uneducated lot. A few of them just think they know something because they saw Brian Flemming's film or "Zeitgeist: the Movie" but many of them have read the literature on the subject.

 

Unfortunately for them the literature is written by amateurs, based on outdated theories (ex: Kersey Graves, Gerald Massey, "Acharya S" aka Dorothy M. Murdock). Earl Doherty is the most "respected" of the lot, but he too is an amateur. Robert Price is the only real Biblical scholar amongst them, but he's considered fringe even in his field. Richard Carrier recently earned his doctorate in History and is working on a book, but I don't know if he'll submit it to peer review (and if he'll argue that Jesus isn't historical).

 

As for the "prove god is imaginary" crap (put out by these two different guys on youtube, iirc), those videos have been responded to several times already. You can find the responses as well.

 

I'm starting classes Monday so I've got a lot on my mind, but I saw the title and had a flashback to all those debates.

 

I LIKE religious debates, and the Senate is the right place for those kinds of things. It's worthwhile having them especially since the quality of "debate" coming from the Rational Responder type camp on Youtube has been so poor lately. They're like the atheist version of Chick Ministries.