TKA-001 Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 He wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility for months! Is there any particular reason (such as evidence) for him to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endorenna Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 I really wish Vash had her role and dialouge back. She seemed a little more open-minded than some of the other masters in cut-content. In fact, looking at it, I'm suprised she didn't join Revan and Malak! Maybe she felt that the opinion of the rest of the Council overrode hers? Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 They probably would have if any of them except the Exile hadn't quit on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat. I'm actually not sure what you mean. Can you clarify for me? Is there any particular reason (such as evidence) for him to? Actually, there was. First of all, the only evidence against Zayne was the accusations of the Masters, who all are very eager to hunt him down. There was little to no evidence that Zayne was powerful enough to kill the Padawans, he didn't seem to have a record of previous signs of an unstable mind, and he contacted Vandar himself to say that he was innocent. Why would he contact the Jedi if he had fallen, did not intend to return, and was taking the risk of being tracked? Don't get me wrong though. The main reason I was a bit disappointed in Vandar wasn't the fact that he didn't believe Zayne so much as the reason he cited: "How can I even contemplate such a thing? Your Master Lucien is the scion of an important family—both in the Republic and in the Jedi Order." ...Is that the best reason he can come up with for not considering another possibility? It just seems... lacking. Oh, and Vrook, strangely enough, seemed rather neutral toward's Zayne's case. He even called out the Taris Masters on failing to protect their Padawans and how the Masters themselves didn't seem entirely trustworthy! A bit of a shock given that he usually is against the main character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endorenna Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 I'm actually not sure what you mean. Can you clarify for me? I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 the accusations of the Masters, who all are very eager to hunt him down. Is there any reason to disbelieve them? Wouldn't them being eager to hunt him down be understandable if he was responsible? There was little to no evidence that Zayne was powerful enough to kill the Padawans So what? They're just Padawans. If he gets the drop on them, it wouldn't be that difficult. he didn't seem to have a record of previous signs of an unstable mind Granted, but that's still not evidence toward a conclusion; merely a lack of evidence toward any conclusion. he contacted Vandar himself to say that he was innocent. He could very easily be lying, as far as he knew. Why would he contact the Jedi if he had fallen, did not intend to return, and was taking the risk of being tracked? Granted, that should be make the accusing Masters' story look a little fishy, but still, how is Vandar supposed to know what he's up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 So what? They're just Padawans. If he gets the drop on them, it wouldn't be that difficult. I would agree with you except for the fact that the Padawans were killed early because they got suspicious at the idea that Zayne was to knighted with them that day. The Masters were unable to explain themselves, and then started the slaughter early enough for Zayne to come in and witness the direct aftermath. It makes the point that Zayne wasn't very good (and everyone, including Zayne, pretty much agreed). Apparently, Zayne and his Master did not seem to expect for him to become a full Jedi. In fact, most of the times he escaped the Masters was due more to his friend's interferance and dumb luck (or the will of the Force ) than to any skill on his part. This is also acknowledged in the comics, though he does start to improve after a while. Is there any reason to disbelieve them? Wouldn't them being eager to hunt him down be understandable if he was responsible? I was under the impression that the Council (and most Masters) generally refrained from sending a Jedi on a mission that they had any feelings on the matter that might make them bias. In the later years anyway, Obi-Wan is nervous about going on a mission with Anakin to face a pirate slaver, who stole some of Anakin's friends and their family from Tatooine while he lived there. The Council eventually let him go anyway, but told Obi-Wan to keep an eye on him. If the Masters are asking to go after the one that may have killed their Padawans, isn't that at least a sign of feelings that may lean towards (if Zayne was guilty) at least revenge? It just seems to take a long time before Vandar really seems to have any doubts at all about the case. I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side. This made me start thinking... when exactly did the Exile become 'the exile'? The lines of dialouge between the Masters refer to the problem of Revan and "being vulnerable on two fronts", yet in K1, Revan and Malak's return as Sith Lords is dsecribed as somewhat of a suprise. So was this when the Jedi Civil War began? Than why was there a year between the Mandalorian War and the JCW? Where was the Exile during that time if this is the case? Help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Vader Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Best to Worst 1. I think Kavar is the best. He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook. He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council. 2. "Dorak because never did anything to stop you and he is interesting". I agree with greggomonkey in this one. 3. Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap. All of you know what happens when someone is putted on a match with Darth Sion. Sion 10/10. Poor Vash. 4. Zez-Kai Ell, only because he admit his mistake and has double-bladed purple lightsaber. He also gives some fight in KOTOR 2. 5. Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one. 6. Vandar: "Nice enough and friendly, but was on the side of arrogance. I couldn't tell enough of him to make a judgment, so he's neutral". Again I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one. But I think neutral is a coward and foolish way, so I put Vandar in number 6 7. Atris : Stupid woman who thinks can defeat nihilus and sion (how can she do that?). I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me 8. Vrook : I think he is the most suck from all of them. I hate his arrogant but lame and foolish style of speaking. No offense for his voice talent . He always hates the Exile's way and I think he's the worst dueler in jedi high council ( judging from KOTOR 2, I kill him with OHKO, very pathetic). The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do. They don't protect the Republic when the Republic need them. That's why I hate Jedi 's way of life in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War. They are weak Jedi who don't know how to protect civilization. They more like sage in Avatar the Legend of Aang than Jedi. They don't want to attach their life in war and protecting civilization. Revan is better than them. Jedi Exile is better than them. Even Anakin (who turns to a crazy evil force-wielding cyborg) and Sidious wants peace and order in the galaxy, although with and iron grip, is better than them. It is no matter, the main point is to maintain order in the galaxy. And none of the Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is brave enough to do that. Hail Revan! Hail Vader! Hail Sidious! Everybody could say amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook.He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council. (shrug) I never found him handsome, and his voice wasn't great either, but the shoto and regular lightsaber style is awesome. My problem with Kavar is how he seems to be on your side and an ally but betrays you immediately. Who needs enemies with friends like these? I don't hate him or anything, but its hard to call someone like that your favorite if you think about it that way. Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap. True, but no one knew Sion or Nihilus' powers (or even existance). All they knew was that there was a new, powerful Sith threat. How can you blame Vash for getting caught? Or were you expecting her to guess that there would be legions of assasins hunting through the force, and a walking corpse. With a lightsaber. Also, Vash was not originally supposed to be dead like that when you find her. The creators had to cut M4-78 and much of Korriban, so they ended up Stuffing Her in the Fridge. Stupid time restraints... Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one. Hmmm.... I don't think he thought the Council was perfect (that's Atris's bit); I think he was just a conventional Jedi Master saying the more respectable version of: "I told 'ya so, I told 'ya so!" And, from the Jedi's point of view, it was foolish. All of the Revanchists either died, turned to the dark-side, were forcibly turned to the dark-side, or were exiled. Incidentaly, it didn't seem like Vrook thought the Council was perfect either. He just wanted the Jedi to listen to it, so some measure of order could be maintained. At least, my interpretation (especially in the comics). I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me Oh no! Echani-lover! The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do Wow, I called out a player-bias before TKA-001? This is wierd. Anyway, just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided. Hail Revan! Hail Vader! Hail Sidious! Everybody could say amen to that. Revan brutally crippled the Mandalorian way of life, manipulated the Exile and Bao-Dur into commiting mass genocide, became a Dark Lord of the Sith, slaughtered millions, reactivated the Star Forge, set up the assasins who would hunt down most of the Jedi of the Civil War and torture them, send his own troops (if force-sensitive) to be broken, and was planning to take over the Republic, establish an Empire, and fight off the True Sith, likely keeping his power at that point due to the nature of the dark-side! Oh, and Malak's jaw (think about how and why you would cut someone's jaw off and keep them alive). Sidious manipulated everyone to misery, madness, and/or death (some combination of the three), authorized and encouraged the use of genocide for show, used racism and sexism to divide the galaxy further, and was a selfish bastard who loved putting up giant statues of himself. He also kept concubines. And you want us to hail them. HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THE COUNCIL!?! THE COUNCIL ISN'T EVIL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Hail Revan! You do realize that saying "hail Revan" is the Star Wars equivalent of saying "hail Hitler", "hail Stalin", et cetera since Revan is basically the Star Wars equivalent of any of them, right? Need I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THE COUNCIL!?! THE COUNCIL ISN'T EVIL! i second that! : and ultimate_vader, you *do* realize that saying 'hail ...' is saying "worship them!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinthian Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 *Rolls eyes* Did you people leave your sense of sarcasm on the dresser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 He also kept concubines. Wait a minute, since when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endorenna Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 ^ Same question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Wait a minute, since when? Apparently the reason Mara Jade, Shira Brie, and some of the other female Hands were able to slip in and out of the Imperial Palace without much notice despite the sexism prevelant... because they were assumed to be more concubines for the higher-ups... (shudder). I cannot, nor will I ever, be able to unlearn that. Ugh. *Rolls eyes* Did you people leave your sense of sarcasm on the dresser? Please be more obvious about it next time for those of us less intelliegent than you, so we do not have to rant for nothing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endorenna Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 What book is that from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 ive never heard palpy had concubines... but it seems completely plausible to me. of course he'd have to pay them hugely... cause theres no way in all of existence that anyone's going get with old pruney 'because he's cute'... (excpept maybe a monkey lizard) the punk must be mind-tricking them. the pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vougalot Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Well, he was the freaking dictator of the galaxy. You just don't say no to someone like that and expect to walk away with your head still attached to your shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthYuugi Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 My list Master Vash: Not nasty shes open minded and is probably the most responsibile member on the jedi council Master Vandar Again never nasty takes in to considiration other peoples thoughts Master Kavar Not open minded but at least he does something to help and has some respect for the Exile Master Zez Is willing to admit they were quite possibly maybe on some days when its raining actually might consider hes wrong Master Vrook Hated old man who only considers power in to evreything In K2 When i saw he was in the holo records i fought he would be a sith when we find him Master Atris Arragont and a idiot whos manuplitive as kreia Do i have to explain lol ? Master Dorak Not much a apperance so hes neutral Master zhar He did think the council was right so that puts him in the arrogont part of the council Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Master zhar He did think the council was right so that puts him in the arrogont part of the council Let me reiterate: "just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided." From the Council's point of view, fighting in the Mandalorian Wars resulting in all Jedi involved to die (ex: Dxun and Malachor V), become evil (Revan's Sith Empire), or loose faith in everything and drop off the face of the galaxy (the Jedi Exile). Because none of the Revanchists ever returned to the Jedi for anything more than a trial and the Jedi Order had apparently become so distant from the ordinary citizens of the Republic, they didn't have all the pieces of the story to conclude that it was a bad decision. In any case, to publically declare their decision a bad one would be to give credit to the Revanchists, who are now the enemy. In a war, you will almost never see a side give credit to the enemy, sometimes not even decades after the battles, especially because of the possible impact on morale and faith in the Coucil's leadership. Though... looking back... I don't see any good solution to that scenario at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support. It was because the Council refused to act that Revan received support. Even if they believed it was wrong, they should have known that it didn't really matter what the Council thought if no one believed them. They were misguided because they weren't willing to take the responsibilities of leadership. Vrook and Atris seemed to enjoy having the power and shifting responsibility to others especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support.[/Quote] It's hardly their fault that Revan disobeyed them, and then became a Sith Lord. They didn't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, and, importantly, the Order was still trying to rebuild after the last time a Jedi Knight led a group of his peers to the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 One thing this discussion brings to mind is the fact that the Jedi Civil War was, by definition, not a Jedi civil war at all. My dictionary defines a civil war as "a war between political factions or regions within the same country". I've also heard it described as a war between two or more factions for control of a government. The Jedi Civil War was not a war between two factions within the same "country" (by that definition, anyway), or for control of a "government" (which in this context would refer to the Jedi Order itself). The closest Revan's movement came to a "civil war" was when he and his renegades left to assist the Republic military. Even then, however, there was no war for control of the Order. It was simply Revan and his followers leaving. One might say that the Jedi Crusaders (I refuse to call them "the Revanchists") caused a schism in the Jedi Order, but as far as I know it has yet to be verified as to approximately how many Jedi followed Revan. It can be considered safe to say that few of Revan's followers were Jedi Knights, and that even fewer were Masters (we have only one example of each so far. Aside from that, Jedi apprentices are by default younger than the more experienced Jedi and would be easily swayed). As for the Crusaders' actual numbers, it could be anything from as few as several hundred or as many as one or two thousand, depending on the number of low-ranking Jedi the Order had, as well as its size in general. The Jedi Civil War itself did not start until years later, of course, and the conflict itself was more about the Republic and the Sith Empire than the Jedi. I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant. I have to disagree with you there. The ones who dubbed the war "the Jedi Civil War" was the rest of the galaxy. The game was trying to make the point that, from an outside point of view, the Jedi and the Sith didn't seem all that different. And, think about it; how could you tell if you didn't know their underlying philosophies and traditions but saw both of them using strange powers to tear the galaxy apart? Is this an intelligent categorization of the war? No, but I doubt enough of the people of that time period felt highly of the Jedi at this point anyway, so this was also a way to blame the Order and all the Jedi for all their suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 how could you tell if you didn't know their underlying philosophies and traditions but saw both of them using strange powers to tear the galaxy apart? What about the fact that the Sith were killing billions of people and the Jedi weren't? I understand the logic you cite, but I don't see how it holds much water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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