Darth Revan Or Master Revan

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'd like a source for that.

 

 

Is there any particular reason that the Jedi aren't credible other than the fact that you don't want them to be?

 

 

I talk about the entire war in general. Since it's apparently logical to assume that Revan was a brilliant strategist despite lack of evidence, it seems reasonable to assume that effecting or allowing the genocide of populations was not a relatively uncommon tatic for the him to use.

 

I'm not sure what the point about the Core Worlds is. They just hadn't attacked there yet.

 

 

But nobody does know. The only speculation anyone ever makes is just a one-sentence assumption that the Mandalorians would have conquered the entire freaking galaxy and that unless Revan was on the Republic's side, the Mandalorians were totally invincible.

 

 

He didn't say everything happened because of them. He said the Jedi Civil War happened, which is a material, established fact.

 

 

1. Why would the Council be "afraid" of doing what they didn't want to do?

2. The renegades were the ones who didn't have the right to judge them. The fact that they were in charge means that they were in charge, therefore they judge the rogues. I don't see what's complicated about that. Are you seriously trying to say that they had no right to judge a 20-year-old Jedi with delusions of grandeur who, without a second thought, went out of his way to teach the Jedi Order to take the simplest and (in the end) most costly way out of a situation?

 

Why do you go to such extremes to cast doubt where none should exist.

 

ONLY the Council stand by their original choice and no one else does. Before you start spouting off on how it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, doesn't it seem a little too convenient how the Council always thinks it right and many of their followers think they were wrong?

 

If they were so effective and trustworthy, then why did so many of their followers abandon them for a young and defiant jedi like Revan? Maybe all logic suggests that were wrong all along? If you say there's no evidence of that, then tell me why you claim such a thing w/out evidence of your own. Lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, so don't use it!

 

The Mandalorians, themselves say it was Revan. All who followed him believed he saved them. Who OTHER THAN JEDI say anything to counter that? Many more say so than not.

 

Revan would not have had any power of influence if the Council did what had to be done instead of what they wanted to do. The Council were stupid to assume their followers would go against their sense when the Mandolaorians were crushing the Republic. It didn't matter whether or not they were right... what mattered is that they refused to act and many of their followers abandoned them. It was because of them... not Revan that their followers abandoned them... it all started with them giving their followers an impossible order.

[Ascendant_Justice]

The Mandalorian fleet was much more numerous before Revan began his campaigns against them.

 

I suppose I should add something to that. Let me say: The Mandalorian Fleet was much more numerous before Revan and his campaigns than it was at the battle of Malachor. And, I don't think that needs evidence..obviously their fleet was bigger during the initial invasion than it was after they had been pushed all the way back to Malachor.

 

Anyway, Revan being a brilliant strategist has pretty much been established as fact. The fact that Republic forces under him triumphed against the Mandalorians is enough for me, but there is specific evidence. Aside from the Mandalorians (specifically Canderous) claiming Revan was the only reason the Republic beat them, Master Dorak himself labels Revan as a "brilliant military leader" and then implies this again when he takes a shot at Malak and says he is "far from Revan's equal in strategy or tactics".

 

Revan allowed certain worlds to fall because it was part of his military strategy. The Republic was not fairing very well using traditional tactics. The pre-Revanchist Republic forces opted for tactics that were completely ineffective against the Mandalorian fleet. All Revan did was fight the Mandalorians using different tactics. Instead of straining his forces to defend multitudes of planets (something that didn't work as shown with the Republic's Jebble-Vanquo-Tarnith line), Revan opted to bring the fight to the Mandalorians and fight fire with fire. And, as "ruthless" as that may seem, Revan and his forces defeated the Mandalorians and left the Republic functioning and defensible (probably much more so than it would be had Revan never happened).

 

I predict Revan would have saved the whole "corrupting" process for the Star Forge, which would infallibly succeed in turning the soldiers and jedi that had no true knowledge of its capabilities. If Revan had been "corrupting" his forces even before Malachor, I'm sure there would have been some notice. I doubt 100% of the forces under his command would have followed him into unknown regions if half of them were turning into zombies over having witnessed "intentional genocides".

[TKA-001]

doesn't it seem a little too convenient how the Council always thinks it right and many of their followers think they were wrong?

Can you name a single individual of any importance other than Revan, Malak, or the Exile who fit this criteria? Why does a group of individuals being in a[n alleged] minority make them wrong?

 

then tell me why you claim such a thing w/out evidence of your own. Lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, so don't use it!

How am I not using evidence? I'm doing the same thing that you are: looking at the game and drawing my own conclusions from it.

 

The fact that Republic forces under him triumphed against the Mandalorians is enough for me

Is there any evidence that the Mandalorians are particularly effective strategists?

 

If Revan had been "corrupting" his forces even before Malachor, I'm sure there would have been some notice.

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war. A war of conversion." Kreia basically spells out for the observer that Malachor was not the first time Revan staged a massacre to influence his troops.

 

I don't have anything else to say on this.

[MacTavish]

I chose both, I like the idea of Revan (former dark-side) returning to light and the Exile using his "wound in the force" power for evil, but I also like it vice-versa.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Can you name a single individual of any importance other than Revan, Malak, or the Exile who fit this criteria? Why does a group of individuals being in a[n alleged] minority make them wrong?

 

 

How am I not using evidence? I'm doing the same thing that you are: looking at the game and drawing my own conclusions from it.

 

 

Is there any evidence that the Mandalorians are particularly effective strategists?

 

 

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war. A war of conversion." Kreia basically spells out for the observer that Malachor was not the first time Revan staged a massacre to influence his troops.

 

I don't have anything else to say on this.

 

You are just so evasive! I'm trying to have a reasonable argument... the subject is irrelevant, but you're just forming an opinion that defies what everyone else thinks and refusing to think otherwise. I'm not simply brushing off your side... I just think you're being evasive. Of course that's an opinion, so I can't use that against you.

 

This is cruel, but I'll use your own tactics against you and show you EXACTLY what I mean.

 

You said Kriea layed it all out that Revan was evil. Why trust her... didn't she always have a habit of lying and twisting facts? She's also the one to suggest Revan did not fall, but made a choice to do what was needed. Traya said the exact opposite... neither side can be trusted, so... nothing there.

 

Mandalorians aren't great strategists? Again no proof. There are many who state that they are masters of war. Are you saying they're lying? Prove that they are and you have something more to go on than a supposition.

 

The jedi were taught by the very masters they went against! If the Council couldn't earn the trust of their followers like Revan, they didn't deserve their loyalty. Imagine if FDR had declared war on Germany after JAPAN attacked Pearl Harbor. If he did such as thing(which he believed was the best thing for America) his followers would not have supported him on that. Americans weren't focused on Germany... it was Japan that committed the first overt aggressive act and it was only because Germany declared war on the US that Americans would back FDR on that issue.

 

-My counter to the next post is that Germany was not obligated to fight an enemy that Japan attacked. Only if America dropped the first bomb would they have had to declare war on the US. FDR wanted America to fight in Europe, but despite all his support, he couldn't declare war without the support of the American populace. If Germany didn't declare war on the US, we would have only been against Japan in WWII.

 

The Council was like FDR in reverse. Revan could not have attracted so many followers from the Order unless they had more reason to trust him than their official leaders. Revan was not a darksider when he defied the Council. The entire KOTOR II game showed that.

[Gurges-Ahter]

You are just so evasive! I'm trying to have a reasonable argument... the subject is irrelevant, but you're just forming an opinion that defies what everyone else thinks and refusing to think otherwise. I'm not simply brushing off your side... I just think you're being evasive. Of course that's an opinion, so I can't use that against you.

That's just what he does. And it never ends.

[Darth_Yuthura]

That's just what he does. And it never ends.

 

Thanks. Glad that I know I'm not alone on that. I think that's enough to make me stop now.

[RedHawke]

(Inspired by the previous sentence, I present this image)

I do not know why... but I really like this!

[Ascendant_Justice]

I agree. I like the whole handlebar mustache concept. It's classy.

[Feagildin]

Revan is lightside when I play because I like the idea of a protector more than that of a conqueror.

[Sidias.R]

Although I'm highly affected by the Darkside, meaning that I always choose Dark Side; I'd have to say that I chose LightSide Revan 'ere.

 

Reason? Well, as most people, as well as for the canon story, says that Revan is Lightside, I'd go for LightSide if it's KoTOR.

As I have said before; though I choose Dark side 99% of the time, I still choose Revan as lightside, strangely enough.

[Endorenna]

Dark Side Revan! Always!

 

Why, you might ask?

 

Because I like the sparks and flame background better than the white rain.

[Blix]

I've never really preferred one over the other, but I do think that the DS Revan story/ending is more interesting.

[Lord of Destruction]

Both, Revan is a gray Jedi like the others have said, he dose his own thing and he kicks ass doing it.

 

Hey Camo-Man you are right about Revan being Grey

[Admiral_Thrawn]

Look, Revan never fell to the darkside truely. Upon Malachor V he learnt of the True Sith and saw the Darkside as the only way to defeat them. Notice how upon his campaign he never attacked strong industrial worlds that would hold their own against a armada. No, he targeted weak worlds and fortified them. Nor did he draw upon the Star Forge, not out of ignorance, but because he didn't want to be corrupted or reliant upon its energies. He simply used it as a factory.

 

He intended to discard the Star Forge in due time as he did with all else. Thus Revan embraced the Dark Side for a purpose. He became evil to defeat a greater evil, nulling his crime.

 

I honestly don't see how anyone can pin him as a Sith. I hope I cleared some confusion up for some people.

 

@ Topic.

He became a Sith to fulfill his duties as a Jedi. So before he lost his amnesia he would come under both, thus I view it as both.

[Allronix]

My take on it, both are from my fanfic stash:

 

She took the choice of a Jedi, hadn’t she? To preserve a life, even that of a foe? Except, she now realized, she hadn’t preserved a life. There was some of Revan present, to be sure, but Bastila could sense the part of her own life she gave up had fused onto it, like a cortosis weave on steel. What was growing was neither herself or Revan, but something…different.

- Bastila on the comatose Revan

 

"No, I say what I mean. I didn’t blab what I knew right away because I wanted to see whom we were dealing with. Now, the house is Revan’s, some of those furnishings might be Revan’s, but the occupant…" Jolee swore quietly. "The damn Council was luckier – and I AM calling it luck – than they deserved to be."

 

"She’s Revan – Darth Revan. No matter what the Council did, it still won’t change that fact."

 

"No, what I knew was that Revan was captured, and the Jedi Council decided to play at being gods in order to get what they want – and probably without the slightest consideration past it, though they’ll profess otherwise." Jolee sighed.

- Jolee and Carth after the Leviathan incident

 

 

I see the PC not so much as Revan, but as a new life born of the Force bond between Revan and Bastila. This is a big factor in why I tend not to play male much, as the whole thing comes off as Oedepus Rex.

 

As to my particular character? Yes, she's LS. She didn't choose the Jedi, though; she chose her companions. After that awards ceremony, she would be inclined to hand Vandar her lightsaber and ask to be cut off from the Force in order to live a normal life.

[Kjølen]

Both. Revan isn't a "grey Jedi." He's not on the borderline between light and dark. At separate times, he's encompassed both sides individually, and in the end, he's become a force nexus in which all aspects of the Force flow through him. He is set apart from other beings, because he never was truly seduced by the dark side, nor hampered by the contemplativeness of the light side. He is ALL of the Force.

[Lord of Destruction]

Both. Revan isn't a "grey Jedi." He's not on the borderline between light and dark. At separate times, he's encompassed both sides individually, and in the end, he's become a force nexus in which all aspects of the Force flow through him. He is set apart from other beings, because he never was truly seduced by the dark side, nor hampered by the contemplativeness of the light side. He is ALL of the Force.

 

wow. that was good that was sorta what i was thinking but you telled it better

[Sle63]

I like both lightside and darkside revan...though i think Revan was niether.

 

revan(after the mandalorian wars) when he found the "Great Threat" he knew that the Republic, Jedi's, and all those good ppl would wait, they would use safe and weak tactics in order to save its own ppl. Revan knew only that sometimes you need to do things forcefully to get the job done. I'm not saying Revan thought it was a good plan to be "evil" per-say but he knew that sometimes people and planets must be sacrificed in order to save the future.

 

Revan knew that the Republic was too corrupt and weak for it to fight the Greatest threat to the galaxy. I may not like the Sith but when they're in control, most threats are abolished....and its because they dont try to save every person, they do things quick and ruthless. The republic wastes to much time saving its ppl than focusing on destroying the threat faster.

 

idky i explained that but i thought i had to. Revan did only what was nessesary to save the future.

[TheJedi76]

You totally forgot that the memory wiped Revan isn't the Revan we know at all.

 

The memory wiped Revan is just something you carve into what we call "Revan"

 

The REAL Revan is the one who embraced the dark side only to defeat his enemies, and for a greater good.

 

He never "fell" to the dark side either.

 

That's the one I prefer, so I guess I'm going with neither.

[Lord of Hunger]

In addition to the fact that neither lightside or darkside Revan existed prior to the mindwipe performed by the Jedi Council since Revan never fell, I prefer neither since Jedi Council induced LS Revan is a idiot who will swallow any bull Bastila and the Council feed him and Jedi Council induced DS Revan makes Sylar from Heroes like like a teddy bear. One mod I am considering doing, in the spirit of Silveredge9's possible interpretation of Revan in BOS and Kreia's statements about him, is to add dialog options to KOTOR for the PC that are in the spirit of the true Revan.

 

So my vote is neither. Go TrueRevan, benevolent Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Parmenides]

I like this: "benevolent Dark Lord of the Sith." At least this is cannon inside the solipsistic universe of my imagination. Full freedom as a sith, but also sees that there is value in human life (even if some have to be sacrificed for the greater good). Revan wouldn't think that the Jedi code is entirely wrong, but rather shortsighted. Just take out the "there is no..." parts. The Sith code would need some revision too for Revan.

 

"Revan the philosopher."

[Lord Milk]

@ Lord of Hunger & TheJedi76: Once Revan had his revelation aboard the Levithan, he got his memories back...so effectively, He is the Dark Lord Revan at that point(since he has all his memories) Then, canon suggests he rejected this in favor for the light. Perhaps it was influenced from Bastila, or somebody else, but I don't think so. My option would have to be for "Revan the Force User". At the end of KotOR, he was not Sith(He would've returned to Korriban as his Darkside ending says) and he was not Jedi(He would've stayed with the order) Instead, he ventured into the Unknown Regions. Just my little opinion.

[cryora]

You totally forgot that the memory wiped Revan isn't the Revan we know at all.

 

The memory wiped Revan is just something you carve into what we call "Revan"

 

The REAL Revan is the one who embraced the dark side only to defeat his enemies, and for a greater good.

 

He never "fell" to the dark side either.

 

That's the one I prefer, so I guess I'm going with neither.

 

Hmm I'm interested in why you say the real Revan embraced the dark side for a greater good. I had always thought that he did it because he was corrupted.

[Scatter]

ONLY the Council stand by their original choice and no one else does. Before you start spouting off on how it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, doesn't it seem a little too convenient how the Council always thinks it right and many of their followers think they were wrong?

 

If they were so effective and trustworthy, then why did so many of their followers abandon them for a young and defiant jedi like Revan? Maybe all logic suggests that were wrong all along? If you say there's no evidence of that, then tell me why you claim such a thing w/out evidence of your own. Lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, so don't use it!

i love how people who choose to believe the council were wrong to not intervene in the war always conveniently forget one thing - revan's very actions proved them right. 100% right.

 

i'm not talking about his actions in going to war, fighting the war, or 'winning' the war. i'm talking about what he did after his redemption. what he did after the star forge was destroyed. he went to seek out the true threat the republic faced.

 

what were the reasons behind the council urging caution? they wanted to see who the true threat was. they wanted to know who they were really fighting against. this is stated many times in both games.

 

canderous freely admits the mandalorians were duped into attacking the republic.

 

by joining the war effort too early revan made a massive tactical error - he (apparently) failed to consider that the council may indeed have been correct. that there was something/someone else driving the war. by charging in he failed to allow them to be drawn out. he realised this error and thus went off to find them on his own - and in doing so admitted that the council was basically right all along.

 

all of these facts are presented during the course of both games.