The European Union - curse or progress?

[ForeverNight]

Europe's military strength is surprisingly underrated. Britain, I believe, is the fourth most powerful military force in the world, behind the US, China and Russia(in no particular order). If they united as one, there would be significant strength.[/Quote]

 

I never knew England was that far up there... I've always known England was a powerful country, but not that powerful. I guess that when I think of Europe I think of the Continent instead of the Continent, England, and Scandinavia...

 

Sorry, I guess I should've been more clear on that point.

 

As mur'phon pointed out, the military forces currently standing in Europe make it a 'nightmare to attack'. Very true, but I must say that I believe that at this stage in the lives of our nations, wantonly attacking other nations is far from our minds! I believe most are happy with the extent of our respective borders.[/Quote]

 

Expanding your borders is not the only reason for attacking. Imagine that China decided that it wanted to expand, and Russia allied with them. (Yes, I know, fat chance of that happening.) Do you think that the EU (If it ever became one cohesive Nationstate with its own military) would attack Russia and/or China in order to try to save themselves?

 

I think the 'EU Army', if ever it comes to be, would, in foreign matters, be more of a peacekeeping force comparable to the UN (except, actually useful).[/Quote]

 

That's the problem with the UN... They seem more interesting in Peackeeping forces stationed in 3rd World Countries than actual threats! But, UN bashing belongs in its own thread. (I WILL resist the temptation... I WILL resist the temptation... I might resist the temptation... I could resist the temptation)

[SW01]

Expanding your borders is not the only reason for attacking. Imagine that China decided that it wanted to expand, and Russia allied with them. (Yes, I know, fat chance of that happening.) Do you think that the EU (If it ever became one cohesive Nationstate with its own military) would attack Russia and/or China in order to try to save themselves?

 

Historically, pre-emption has not been a characteristic of the European states, at least not in modern history. Given that, I don't think it would be likely now - it would probably have to be a real, directed threat towards the EU.

 

(Uses mind trick on ForeverNight - You will start a UN thread...you WANT to start a UN thread...)

[mur'phon]

SW01: While I agree with you, having Russian planes zooming across the border isn't exactly fun.

 

 

ForeverNight:

socialism rant

 

Make a new thread if you want to discus socialism, suffice to say I disagree with you.

 

The problem with each member country having a military is that it's going to become like the US under the Articles of Confederation, everybody's going to build up their own military and then only use it as they see fit, not the Overreaching Federal Body.

 

Currently, yes, though as the countries integrate, expect to see a more unified EU force. Anyway, a lot of the time European countries share goals, and in the event of an attack on a member, would hitt like a sledge hammer.

 

Not meant to ruffle your feathers, just pointing out that it seems to be Europe that's gotten the Reputation for it...

 

I know, I'm just pointing out it's undeserved.

 

three words in Russian, da, nyet, and the other I can't type out... basically it translates to F*** your mother.

 

Which reminds me, never order a pizza in Russian using a phrase book, odds are, you'll be ordering a**holes.

 

I guess that when I think of Europe I think of the Continent instead of the Continent, England, and Scandinavia...

 

Try to think of the different countries, compare for instance Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria (all part of continent) to see why.

 

Do you think that the EU (If it ever became one cohesive Nationstate with its own military) would attack Russia and/or China in order to try to save themselves?

 

I believe they would do it even if it happened now, which is one reason why Norway isn't a EU member.

[ForeverNight]

Make a new thread if you want to discus socialism' date=' suffice to say I disagree with you.[/Quote']

 

Ouch.

 

You asked where socialism came in, I explained it and then the question was asked about how Socialism diminishes Economic Might. I was just trying to answer your question to the best of my abilities, sorry.

 

Currently' date=' yes, though as the countries integrate, expect to see a more unified EU force. Anyway, a lot of the time European countries share goals, and in the event of an attack on a member, would hitt like a sledge hammer.[/Quote']

 

I hope so for their sake... I guess I just set little stock in the better nature of man.

 

Try to think of the different countries' date=' compare for instance Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria (all part of continent) to see why.[/Quote']

 

I know that they're all part of the continent. It probably bears looking into further.

 

I believe they would do it even if it happened now' date=' which is one reason why Norway isn't a EU member.[/Quote']

 

Historically, pre-emption has not been a characteristic of the European states, at least not in modern history. Given that, I don't think it would be likely now - it would probably have to be a real, directed threat towards the EU.[/Quote]

 

I'm going to have to side with SW01 here. Most of Europe, more specifically the EU, are democracies or some form thereof. Most of the populous of Europe has (According to surveys) shown that they are opposed to preemptive strikes.

 

Maybe in the future, but who knows?

 

(Uses mind trick on ForeverNight - You will start a UN thread...you WANT to start a UN thread...)[/Quote]

 

Yes... I... want... to start a... UN... thread?

 

Maybe tomorrow...

 

Which reminds me' date=' never order a pizza in Russian using a phrase book, odds are, you'll be ordering a**holes.[/Quote']

 

Thanks for the advice... Though, somehow, I doubt I'll be going to a Pizza place in Russia... but, if that happens, thanks!

[Web Rider]

You may wish to take a better review of history, there are a great many parallels in the running of the British Empire in the late 19th and early 20th century, and the running of America today.

 

Isn't that what I said? That America has a lot in common right now as older powers did when they had power?

 

Historically, pre-emption has not been a characteristic of the European states, at least not in modern history. Given that, I don't think it would be likely now - it would probably have to be a real, directed threat towards the EU.

 

The EU doesn't practice "preemtion" in the way it's former powers did because they lack exactly that, power.

 

The US, unforunately, has, IMO, too much military power, and thus, there's always a silent push to make it look useful by doing something.

 

If the EU unites, truly unites and does the same with their forces, the same thing will happen, they will have a alrge standing army and people will begin to push for the government to prove its useful, and then the EU will start using their might in much the same way everyone else has.

[Rev7]

More or less. In short, it was originally designed to promote trade and prevent war. Since then, it has grown in size and developed into more of a political unit. Recently, there have been concerns about increasing the integration of European nations into something similar to the US. There have been other difficulties such as dealing with ethnic diversity, immigration problems, etc.

Okay, I guess that I was right. I guess that, in short, it is a good idea in some ways and a bad idea in other ways.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I think the EU is a blessing because it has allowed for economic growth to transcend individual differences or political border disputes. Because the opportunity for all the nations of the EU to function as one in international and internal trading, the discrepancies caused by currency and tariffs are removed. Instead of separate countries using their own currency and geographic location to their advantage, all the countries use a universal currency and unrestricted internal trade among each other. This makes the entire continent of Europe act more like a single entity in the economic side of things.

 

The political and cultural side is something else, but even that slowly dissolves as French and Germans are beginning to think of themselves more as European before being of their country. The closest members are much like them, but the farther the EU goes, the less unified and prosperous they are. As time goes on, that gulf is closing as well.

[SW01]

Instead of separate countries using their own currency...all the countries use a universal currency.

 

Actually, only 13 of the 27 member states have adopted the single currency - and some want out! Some national currencies, like the Pound, are even stronger than the Euro.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Actually, only 13 of the 27 member states have adopted the single currency - and some want out! Some national currencies, like the Pound, are even stronger than the Euro.

 

The Pound is just a unit of measurement... as are all currencies. The difference among the dollar, pound, and Euro is how much inflation occurs. The unit's size is irrelevant unless inflation causes one to be eclipsed by another. The US dollar has become less valuable per unit because of high inflation. The Euro is much more stable because its unit of value remains much more stable.

 

The strength of a currency isn't it's unit/value basis. It's how well they hold their value over time. That's one of the things that make money... well money. It must hold a constant value, but inflation slowly alters it. If you have one currency that no one is using... what good is it?

[ForeverNight]

@Darth_Yuthura:

 

The power of currency is driven by the same forces that drive Wall Street, namely, greed and perception.

 

Iraq produces its own currency, however its not that strong of currency. Why is it not that strong?

 

Two reasons:

 

1. Not that many people want it.

2. Iraq is still perceived as a week country.

 

Because of those two reasons, its still a week currency.

 

high inflation[/Quote]

 

Oh, so 5.02% (As of June '08) is high?

 

Source

[Darth_Yuthura]

Oh, so 5.02% (As of June '08) is high?

 

Yes. It most definitely is.

 

What is the Euro's inflation rate? I couldn't find it from your source(easily at least)

 

My aim was not the American dollar vs. pound. It was the pound/dollar vs. euro.

[Quanon]

Even before the big amount of countrys, the EU did cripple econemies of its newer members, though in the short in run.

 

Portugal had certain areas with a strong tomato farms, though when they joined the union, it all went down hill.

 

Because, tomatoes out of France and other Southern countrys could be imported at lower prices, in store all the foreign tomatoes where cheaper.

 

What did the people do, buy the cheap one ofcourse.

 

 

Its not always that great to jump on the wagon, though I'm sure this all been "ruled-out" by now. As getting in the EU as a member goes in little steps/ phases.

 

 

On the Socialism: Its not Communism, it is a good system, it protects the working people, you have to do your "best" to totally drop out of society.

 

I don't know what you USA peeps are a afraid of ?

[ForeverNight]

hat is the Euro's inflation rate? I couldn't find it from your source

 

Oh! I was taking it that ~5% on it's own... but, comparing it to the Euro/Pound... Yeah, I can see your point. You shouldn't find it on my source, it's just the Inflation Rate in the US.

 

I don't know what you USA peeps are a afraid of ?[/Quote]

 

Remember what Mur'ph said, a thread will have to be made about this issue...

 

To put it in a nutshell -at least as I see it- we in the US are, generally, opposed to Government and its intervention in our lives. Most of us believe that this phrase is true: "The scariest thing one can here is: 'I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.' "

 

I sure believe it.

 

But, we need a new thread.

[Quanon]

To put it in a nutshell -at least as I see it- we in the US are, generally, opposed to Government and its intervention in our lives. Most of us believe that this phrase is true: "The scariest thing one can here is: 'I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.' "

I sure believe it.

But, we need a new thread.

 

Well I can see where you're coming from, I wouldn't want a Gov men at my door every morning asking if I need a cookie and milk.

 

Nor do I want them to have FULL controle in about everything.

Its ofcourse a very difficult balance, as needs of the people always changes so fast and the massive size of the USA on its own is... well unbelievable.

 

Ofcourse I mainly see the benefit in the health care system, though its highly expensive, no low taxes around. IIRC almost 40% of our lowns go to just that. Very high indeed. ( Not all of that 40% goes to the health care, its more then just that.)

 

Nor, saddly you can't avoid the parasites, people who abuse it to actually live a certain "comfort" live without lifting a finger.

 

Plus its al based on that most of your populace works, which is now working against us, where getting a huge 'grey on retirement" group, which in the end will be hard to support.

 

Plus I can't say more as I'm not that good in english to do these great discussions any justice. I can't defend against a huge quote wave

[Totenkopf]

I recall hearing somewhere once that Americans and Europeans spend ~the same % of income on things like healthcare and such, just that the money goes into two different sectors: govt vs private.

 

Seems to me that without some kind of cultural cohesion that the EU will only remain a loose confederation of nations linked primarily by economic interests. It should be interesting to see who emerges as the true first among equals should it succeed to be anything more. Right now the contest seems to be between Germany and France. Britain may once have been a contender, but not so sure now given its own internal decay and looming identity crisis. That said, rather get L40k than $40K (obviously don't have pound sign on keyboard).

[Gargoyle King]

Personally i can see the beneficial aspects of this, a unified Europe would in theory be a stronger Europe. I have felt even more strongly agreed with this as our "Labour Lobs", as i like to call them, continue to fail the British people.

On the Socialism: Its not Communism, it is a good system, it protects the working people, you have to do your "best" to totally drop out of society.

This is something Britain definately needs IMO. I have always somewhat believed in the Socialist System, the government just don't care about the working class even though we are the backbone of the country!

[SW01]

I have always somewhat believed in the Socialist System, the government just don't care about the working class even though we are the backbone of the country!

 

Labour has lost a lot of support because of that. There is the sentiment that New Labour is just a Red-packaged Tory party. I don't know who you could vote for that has any socialist ideal any more...

[Darth Avlectus]

the world needs a BETTER superpower. If the US could improve itsself, the way it acts, which, BTW, is little different from when every European nation had power, I'd be happier to have the title. I don't care who's the powers, as long as they're better/

 

Also, as I pointed out above, you DO recall how long the confederate states lasted right?

 

As a US citizen I agree this country could improve itself...this country ...I'm afraid it's losing its soverignty.

No regulations on runaway NAFTA/CAFTA means uneven playing fields. Job losses. I'm told "it's progressive"--but what is progress if it destroys you?

I'm not talking isolationism here. Regulation, so we can preserve our country.

 

I lost a huge opportunity to work for a laser company out of high school. It all moved overseas. The passport people are also trying to move manufacturing passport security cards to foreign countries like other countries aren't going to take advantage of that. There's a huge security threat US media won't cover.

 

There is little in the way of ethical business practice anymore. Banks with all the rich clients are being bailed out by the government...which in turn passes the debt through taxes...to the rest of the people.

 

Without morals and ethics, it all falls apart--both free market and government. The powerful will take it all away. Freedom has responsibilities-it isn't free.

 

I don't like politics much, but it is nice to see there are people in other countries who DON'T hate us here in USA. It is nice to see the views of fellow SW fans around the world. Even if I might not agree, I see it isn't so grim.

 

Largely here, it's a case of Haves vs Have Nots: jackals in the tiny Haves groups are trying to destroy, subvert, and rewrite our constitution all the time. The media is all part of it...my fellow Americans mean well, but many of them, especially here in the state of California, are MORONS.

 

All it takes for facism to take root is for the government to take away personal and general freedoms while turning a blind eye to oligopolies.

 

SW01, I agree. In fact, I would call the corporatism i'm seeing: globalist corporate socialism. It's not all that different: power is centralized, it is in the hands of fewer, instead of in the hands of the many people who make up the backbone anymore. The government more often comes down on the side of big business.

 

Senate and congress are only giving stimulus because, for the record, any more than 2 quarters of negative growth, and we're in a recession. Stimulus adds some positive growth, the whesels can say- oh but we didn't have a recession. The stimulus money given out really ony put us further down in the hole.