Its just an mmo now?

[Q]

It probably has something to do with the massive cliffhanger at the end of KotOR2.

 

That, and MMOs suck for those who don't play well with others.

[Lord of Hunger]

Cliffhanger? Unfortunately, that cliffhanger is not a storyline-induced one but the result of TSL being incomplete. I think that with TSLRP (and from what I've read it will be out soon) the game will have closure and that effect will be gone.

 

As for playing well with others, hopefully the MMO will mostly attract people from this community, which is generally either civil or friendly from my experience.[/COMPLIMENT]

 

And I agree with Endorenna: KOTOR and TSL both get a bit old after several playthroughs unless you put in a lot of new mods. That's why I like either restoration and expansion mods so much: they push the boundaries of the game's lifespan. However, there is only so far as you can push, so a fresh MMO with a partially new storyline is good.

[SD Nihil]

Along with the cliffhanger Bioware did say they have enough stories to tell to fill up to KOTOR 16. So if that is true whey not sell individual games. You'd make more profit rahter than releaseing free expansions. That's like giving away free sequels. And if people are not willing to pay a monthly fee due to economy of the world it doesn't become the best financial and business sound move in my opinion.

 

Also, if its jus an MMO where everyone is this character or that and there are no familiar main characters in this game we can interact with then the connection to the KOTOR universe is weakened. You want to be able to identify with something that is familiar. Something you can ground yourself in to provide you with connections to the progressing changes. And with it taking 300 years in the future after TSLthen that is a jump too far. You want to take small leaps of a few years so its not so interely different.

 

Slowly you wnat to move the player into new surroundings, but not so quickly too.

[Giant Graffiti]

KOTOR 3 would have been a disappointment

I think you need to read an article called "We Already Hate Your Game".

[Lord of Hunger]

Along with the cliffhanger Bioware did say they have enough stories to tell to fill up to KOTOR 16. So if that is true whey not sell individual games. You'd make more profit rahter than releaseing free expansions. That's like giving away free sequels. And if people are not willing to pay a monthly fee due to economy of the world it doesn't become the best financial and business sound move in my opinion.

 

Also, if its jus an MMO where everyone is this character or that and there are no familiar main characters in this game we can interact with then the connection to the KOTOR universe is weakened. You want to be able to identify with something that is familiar. Something you can ground yourself in to provide you with connections to the progressing changes. And with it taking 300 years in the future after TSLthen that is a jump too far. You want to take small leaps of a few years so its not so interely different.

 

Slowly you wnat to move the player into new surroundings, but not so quickly too.

Here's the thing...why does this have to be so connected to the KOTOR universe as we know it? TSL, combined with TSLRP, completes all aspects of the KOTOR universe that modders don't add aside from the True Sith. This MMO is not a KOTOR 3, in fact it's better: the part that bridges the Old Sith Wars to the New Sith Wars. It has enough KOTOR and enough New Trilogy to possibly have the best aspects of both worlds and solve the problems with each. A third game would be over the top.

[Lord2]

Can you block or ignore people on this forum? I am sick of people trying to convince us (the REAL fanbase who interested more in the story than killing Hk-47 with your friends)

 

This game will suck for several reasons.

 

1. MONEY ($$$)

2. MMO (Online)

3. EA and Luca$Art$

4. Not full voice over! (it will be like WoW, characters will have text bubbles instead)

5. Lame story (if any)

6. No awesome mods

7. Banned (RISK!)

8. You don't play a unique character as the exile or Revan. You'll play a basic soldier like EVERYBODY else!

9. Everybody is dead, probably (300 years after)

10. Thousands of Jedi/Sith. Um, wasn't the old Republic supposed to have limited crystals and such?

 

Do I need to continue?

 

Take a look at the World of Warcraft forums, 11 million people is quite a large and growing community.

 

Oh, you're minded is twisted by Blizzard. Do you actually think that there are 11 million ACTIVE players?!

 

And to keep up with the latest changes, you must buy the expansion ($) AND game time when needed.

 

~25$ per month.

 

Let's say I want to play 4 years, like I have done with TSL since K1 is kind of bad, but whatever

 

25 * 12 = 300$

300$ * 4 = 1200$

 

You have to pay 1,200$ ONLY to play. That's just sick.

 

With the patches thing, Blizzard take care of their games more than any other! Some months ago we got a patch for Warcraft 3 which was released in 2003. It was the 21st patch. THQ have released quite a few patches for Company of Heroes. LucasArts doesn't take care of their games, that's why we aren't receiving any patches from them anymore!

[Q]

Cliffhanger? Unfortunately, that cliffhanger is not a storyline-induced one but the result of TSL being incomplete.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. KotOR2's cliffhanger was quite intentional and TSLRP does absolutely nothing to change that aspect of the ending.

I think that with TSLRP (and from what I've read it will be out soon)

Maybe. I'll believe it when I see it, and not a moment before.

[Fiestainabox]

Can you block or ignore people on this forum? I am sick of people trying to convince us (the REAL fanbase who interested more in the story than killing Hk-47 with your friends)

 

<snip>

 

Alas, I am sick of the people who think this game is going to suck simply because they don't want to pay monthly for it.

 

I'm not poor, I can afford a $25 dollar fee every month. Christ, that's the same price as a week and a half worth of bus passes out here in Toronto.

 

Hmm, I find myself under this so called "Real Fanbase" you have created. The storyline is the whole reason why I'm going to be forking out the money for it each month.

 

Bioware promises a storyline, so I'm going to play the game before I determine whether or not there is going to be a storyline.

 

8. You don't play a unique character as the exile or Revan. You'll play a basic soldier like EVERYBODY else!

 

That's the reason I also intend to play it, I enjoy making a name for myself, not a predetermined one.

 

10. Thousands of Jedi/Sith. Um, wasn't the old Republic supposed to have limited crystals and such?

 

Don't know where your getting the Crystal thing from, but I find the craptonne of sith and jedi to be refreshing, come on, in K1 your like one of 60 force sensitives out there, k2 your like 1 of 8, it's kinda nice to not have the jedi/sith "CLOSE TO EXTINCTION!!!!111111"

 

6. No awesome mods

Mod's are fine and dandy and all, but seeing Luke's ROTJ hilt for around the 30th time, or another Nude mod, get's a little old.

 

5. Lame story (if any)

There doing a Graphic novel at the TOR site, I like the storyline of it so far, very epic feel.

 

2. MMO (Online)

 

Don't know what's the problem about being forced to play with other people, but I guess thats your choice.

 

And to keep up with the latest changes, you must buy the expansion ($) AND game time when needed.

 

~25$ per month.

 

Let's say I want to play 4 years, like I have done with TSL since K1 is kind of bad, but whatever

 

25 * 12 = 300$

300$ * 4 = 1200$

 

You have to pay 1,200$ ONLY to play. That's just sick.

 

Well, honestly, that's a whole lot cheaper than paying 60 bucks a month for an xbox game I'll play 3 or 4 times.

 

Oh, you're minded is twisted by Blizzard. Do you actually think that there are 11 million ACTIVE players?!

 

Sorry, I was wrong, it's 11.5 now.

 

With more than 11.5 million monthly subscribers, World of Warcraft is currently the world's largest MMORPG in those terms, and holds the Guinness World Record for the most popular MMORPG. In April 2008, World of Warcraft was estimated to hold 62% of the massively multiplayer online game (MMOG) market

 

All sourced on the Wiki of course.

 

With the patches thing, Blizzard take care of their games more than any other! Some months ago we got a patch for Warcraft 3 which was released in 2003. It was the 21st patch. THQ have released quite a few patches for Company of Heroes. LucasArts doesn't take care of their games, that's why we aren't receiving any patches from them anymore!

 

Well, honestly, KOTOR hasen't needed a patch in 5 years. Just because Blizz patched W3 21 times dosen't mean it's a good thing. It's more of a put off for me, 21 patches means they changed the game 21 times, or made 21 patches worth of errors. Which is unforgivable for a RTS, just friggen unforgivable.

 

And we ALL know MMO's don't get ANY patches AT ALL NEVER EVER EVER

 

4. Not full voice over! (it will be like WoW, characters will have text bubbles instead)

 

God forbid you'd have to read! I wonder what it was like before MP3/WAVE/OGG encoders.

 

Besides, I rather not have my client taking up all my hard drive space, WoW's pushing 20 gigs now, and it's not fully VO'd.

 

But I'd love to see all the major charecters VO'd!

 

 

Conclusion:

 

Your determined to hate MMO's from either:

• Past, 10 minute experience with a single MMO
  
• Your dirt poor
  
• You have a computer with a 32 meg Intel Integrated Graphics Card, and a 20 gig harddrive
  
• Your on Dial-up.
  

 

Just relax, nobody says you have buy it, why not try a different game rather than playing the same game for 4 years? That's what I did.

 

OMFG, I beat Kotor 1 once, and Kotor 2 once, as lightside both times! OMG OMG OMG I'M NOT ALLOWED TO BE A FAN OF THIS GAME SORRY.

[Q]

Um, why are you attributing Lord2's statements to me?

[Fiestainabox]

Oops, my bad, sorry

[Q]

No problem.

[Ztalker]

Can you block or ignore people on this forum? I am sick of people trying to convince us (the REAL fanbase who interested more in the story than killing Hk-47 with your friends)

 

Arrogance. Read better and you'll realise most people here are looking at this project with great concern. And they will NOT call their character Jedilover1994.

 

This game will suck for several reasons.

1. MONEY ($$$)

2. MMO (Online)

3. EA and Luca$Art$

4. Not full voice over! (it will be like WoW, characters will have text bubbles instead)

5. Lame story (if any)

6. No awesome mods

7. Banned (RISK!)

8. You don't play a unique character as the exile or Revan. You'll play a basic soldier like EVERYBODY else!

9. Everybody is dead, probably (300 years after)

10. Thousands of Jedi/Sith. Um, wasn't the old Republic supposed to have limited crystals and such?

1. Get a job. I have the worst job in the world (supermarket) and I can easily afford WoW, alcohol, parties and still have money left to plan vacations.

2. You are not forced to play with others. In WoW, I level solo to fully immerse myself into the story. I only play dungeons with others. And I have never encountered angry or idiotic people there. All helpful people. But that might have been my luck, online has disadvantages I have to agree with you a little.

3. Bioware is separated from EA. Just like activision-blizzard. Mass Effect was brought in with an EA logo on it. It didn't bother me since it was Bioware only who made it.

4. Go ahead and install the 30 gigabytes of sound files then. It's what takes up most space. It does break some of the story though..I agree

5. Right...the devs have created an environment in which you are on the brink of war. The timefram suits the thousand of Jedi appearing as well. Take a look at SW galaxies. It's supposed to take place around the movie time. With thousands of Jedi. Goodbye continuity and story.

6. Creating the 'SWORD OF PWN' that instantly kills might destroy balance. Of course you can't have mods.

7. Don't cheat then.

8. Did you even visit the site? it WILL have kotor elements and 'offline' stories involving your choices and companions.

9. Which means they can let go of the Kotor 1 and Kotor 2 rules and create a story that better fits the MMO.

10. Synthetic Crystals. Well known. And I already explained this time frame (contrary to Galaxies) WILL support the appearance of thousands of Jedi. This will NOT disrupt balance, check the Bounty hunter page. Rockets, flame-throwers, jet packs. It's can all be used against Jedi.

 

Oh, you're minded is twisted by Blizzard. Do you actually think that there are 11 million ACTIVE players?!

There are two different charts. The one of 'paying players' and 'people with accounts.' My local games magazine provides me with both sometimes.

 

And to keep up with the latest changes, you must buy the expansion ($) AND game time when needed. ~25$ per month.

No. Look at Guild Wars. perfectly playable without expansions.

And expansions will lower in price.

 

Let's say I want to play 4 years, like I have done with TSL since K1 is kind of bad, but whatever

 

25 * 12 = 300$

300$ * 4 = 1200$

Then don't.

If you pay a full game every month (which you won't do now since you'll be playing this game) you'll pay:

12 x $60 dollar=720 dollars.

Times 4 (4 years) = 2880 dollars.

An mmo will provide FREE content updates large enough to be a separate game. Some of the added dungeons in WoW already have HOURS of content.

 

With the patches thing, Blizzard take care of their games more than any other! Some months ago we got a patch for Warcraft 3 which was released in 2003. It was the 21st patch. THQ have released quite a few patches for Company of Heroes. LucasArts doesn't take care of their games, that's why we aren't receiving any patches from them anymore!

Bioware makes it. Not Lucasarts. Not EA. But EA takes care of patches too, so that isn't an issue.

 

Just to add:

I just gave my point of view. The game is not even in it's alpha state. Bashing it now is like bashing the next US president. Or bashing the next World soccer champion.

[SD Nihil]

Fiestainabox

1.5 ha, I don't believe Wiki since you can edit the pages yourself so that makes that 1.5 less credible.

 

If your just playing a xbox game for just four times then maybe that's because you are not playing very good games that have a lot of replay value. You just have to know what games are good. I know of a number I can tell you of.

 

Also, about the patches for Lucasarts KOTOR games. They could've used patches. Since BioWare, Obsidian, or Lucasarts hasn't issued them we the fans have had to make fixes and other tweaks. Look at all the Team Gizka fixes. Those alone could've been an official patch.

 

With you being fine about there not being main characters or you not caring that much. With you being fine having your own character let me say this. You may want to make a name for yourself by thinking that, but I assure you this will just turn into another Star Wars Galaxies except with a KOTOR theme to it. It makes me wonder why not just make another expansion for Galaxies. Oh that's right the Galaxies game engine is a little more older than years. So because they are thinking of the dollar signs as Lord2 has said, they are interested in keeping their MMO fan base happy since that is the big number of people and the largest group of people they are making money of of.

 

You may be able to fork over more money, but others might not.

 

Yes mods get old, but new ones are made. Creativity when it comes from fans is not slowed down by meetings, planning, money negotiating, and paper work. So you get your new content curtsy of the community's fanbase. Talk about "We the People".

 

Yup its just Star Wars Galaxies except with a new engine and all KOTORed up. Gotta keep that large group of MMO players with deep pockets happy. Loyalty to long term fans no. Loyalty to money yes.

 

And with it being text in this MMO let me say this. When you've had steak can you really go back to just burger. Or with a DVR do you now that you have a DVR do you really want to go back to the VCR. I didn't think so.

 

WoW may take up 20 GB, but hard drives are getting cheaper all the time. Heck this old 6yr old computer has a 200GB hard drive. Didn't cost too much. It originally was a 50GB drive. So come on I'd rather it take up a little more space and have the convenience of voices rather than reading. If I want to read a lot I'll pick up a book. And let me just say I already have a lot of books I've gotten. I'll read one and move onto the next. So I have enough books. I don't need additional text in a game that is being completed in a bad way.

 

Even if it isn't in Alpha stage there is currently enough info to discourage us KOTOR and rpg fans. Comparing the positives and negatives, the negatives for me carry more weight.

 

I don't buy so many games. I have about eight for Xbox 360 and 4 for the PC soon 5. And four of those are really much older. You see I buy games based on replay value and storyline. KOTOR games have that.

 

MMOs are more open ended and don't have a true storyline I don't think. Like I said they are just trying to re energize their MMO base and keep the money from those players flowing. And if they can disadvantage some long term fans that's okay to them because we are a smaller number. Its all numbers and money to them.

[Astor]

With you being fine about there not being main characters or you not caring that much. With you being fine having your own character let me say this. You may want to make a name for yourself by thinking that, but I assure you this will just turn into another Star Wars Galaxies except with a KOTOR theme to it. It makes me wonder why not just make another expansion for Galaxies.[/Quote]

 

I'll wait to play the game myself rather than trust your power of clairvoyance, thank you.

 

Oh that's right the Galaxies game engine is a little more older than years. So because they are thinking of the dollar signs as Lord2 has said, they are interested in keeping their MMO fan base happy since that is the big number of people and the largest group of people they are making money of of.

 

They're not even using the Galaxies engine, for Christ's sake.

 

You may be able to fork over more money, but others might not.[/Quote]

 

Then don't, simple as that.

 

Yup its just Star Wars Galaxies except with a new engine and all KOTORed up. Gotta keep that large group of MMO players with deep pockets happy. Loyalty to long term fans no. Loyalty to money yes.

 

It's called business. They don't owe anyone anything, 'Longtime Fans' or not.

 

Even if it isn't in Alpha stage there is currently enough info to discourage us KOTOR and rpg fans.

 

I'm a KOTOR fan and an RPG fan, and i'm not discouraged.

[Ztalker]

Fiestainabox

1. If your just playing a xbox game for just four times then maybe that's because you are not playing very good games that have a lot of replay value. You just have to know what games are good. I know of a number I can tell you of.

 

2. Also, about the patches for Lucasarts KOTOR games. They could've used patches. Since BioWare, Obsidian, or Lucasarts hasn't issued them we the fans have had to make fixes and other tweaks. Look at all the Team Gizka fixes. Those alone could've been an official patch.

 

3. With you being fine about there not being main characters or you not caring that much. With you being fine having your own character let me say this. You may want to make a name for yourself by thinking that, but I assure you this will just turn into another Star Wars Galaxies except with a KOTOR theme to it. It makes me wonder why not just make another expansion for Galaxies. Oh that's right the Galaxies game engine is a little more older than years. So because they are thinking of the dollar signs as Lord2 has said, they are interested in keeping their MMO fan base happy since that is the big number of people and the largest group of people they are making money of of.

 

4. You may be able to fork over more money, but others might not.

 

5. Yes mods get old, but new ones are made. Creativity when it comes from fans is not slowed down by meetings, planning, money negotiating, and paper work. So you get your new content curtsy of the community's fanbase. Talk about "We the People".

 

6. Yup its just Star Wars Galaxies except with a new engine and all KOTORed up. Gotta keep that large group of MMO players with deep pockets happy. Loyalty to long term fans no. Loyalty to money yes.

 

7. WoW may take up 20 GB, but hard drives are getting cheaper all the time. Heck this old 6yr old computer has a 200GB hard drive. Didn't cost too much. It originally was a 50GB drive. So come on I'd rather it take up a little more space and have the convenience of voices rather than reading. If I want to read a lot I'll pick up a book. And let me just say I already have a lot of books I've gotten. I'll read one and move onto the next. So I have enough books. I don't need additional text in a game that is being completed in a bad way.

 

8. Even if it isn't in Alpha stage there is currently enough info to discourage us KOTOR and rpg fans. Comparing the positives and negatives, the negatives for me carry more weight.

 

9. don't buy so many games. I have about eight for Xbox 360 and 4 for the PC soon 5. And four of those are really much older. You see I buy games based on replay value and storyline. KOTOR games have that.

 

10. MMOs are more open ended and don't have a true storyline I don't think. Like I said they are just trying to re energize their MMO base and keep the money from those players flowing. And if they can disadvantage some long term fans that's okay to them because we are a smaller number. Its all numbers and money to them.

 

I think Astor has said it all...being biased is one thing. But this

 

1. Depens on genre. Some games aren't build to play a second time. Most RPG's fall under this because you've already experienced major plot revelations.

 

2. They gave us patches. Enough patches.

What team-gizka does is restoring cut content, of which only a small fragment remained in the game. It was cut for a reason.

 

3. Listen. PLEASE. It's NOT galaxies. Bioware is a continuity loving company, NOT a mainstream 'let's make everyone a Jedi and fork in money' Sony.

 

4. Right. I have one of the lousiest jobs and I'm able to easily make it. Please tell me what you do for work then, because it (honestly) can't get much lower-paid then my own. Not that I don't enjoy my job, but it's simply a side job next to my study.

 

5. Content patches from Bioware self are generally > content from the community. WoW already has 20 content packages released. Quality, YES.

 

6. Did I say it's a different company making it? And they already fixed the 'JEDI SITH ARE EVERYWHERE' mistake by creating a GOOD story?

 

7. Then you are fortunate. Not everyone has such large drives. Bioware wants to appeal to the 'slower computer' people too.

 

8. I agree with Astor. I have seen no balance issues yet. Haven't heard of monthly fees and there's is nothing wrong with the gamre uptill now.

 

9. I think I'll slap myself. An MMO=replay value. It's a game with GUARENTEED years of content that will continue to expand itself by content patches, expansions and what not. What you'd normally spend on a game can now be spend on the game you already have. And that 12,50/month isn't that much compared to full prices games.

 

10. I dare you to download the WoW wotlk demo. You say no story? I say mass invasion and return of cool franchise characters is a damn good story.

 

Sorry to go all out on this, I jus't couldn't resist. It's like you have already convicted this game. If you remain neutral and look at it from a factual point of view, you might realise it's not a bad game. It can turn bad, of course. But the chance of it being good (based on the developer and on what has been told in interviews and on their site. You should take a look, really) are much higher.

[SD Nihil]

I'm saying its just another star Wars MMO that will be KOTOR themed.

 

I know I'm not going to convince you those who are for the MMO. Just backing up my reasons. Neither of us are going to change our views.

 

Its business yes, but often in business they don't think down the road. Often short term quick profit thinking. Rather than thinking this smaller group of people we might disenfranchise.

 

I'm all for business and feel Bioware, Obsidian, and Lucasarts make great games and good patches. But what I'm saying is that with patches produced by any company you look at the past to judge the future.

 

What Lord2 and I are saying is that we do not believe that they'll make more than just a few patches that are very good, but more is needed.

 

Yes TG is making a Restoration mod, but in that mod will be other fixes that we are saying could've been made by Lucasarts. And if they did I'm sure they would've done a good job at making them. There have been many fixes made by community members such as the Telos Training Academy Fix, Kavar Rendezvous Fix, and just recently Sion's Arrival to Peragus Fix. These alone show there was more that could've been patched.

 

So based on past patches being fewer than could've been put out, we are saying that they could've put out more patches for their games based on what community members had to make patch wise themselves. And this is why we think they will repeat the past and not produce enough patches for their games. And I know they can do great patches because BioWare, Lucasarts, and Obsidian do a great job at that.

 

And I didn't say all rpg kotor fans won't like this game. If I did I'm saying not all will hate the MMO TOR.

 

RPGs can have a lot of replay value in that you can experience differences each time if you don't make the same choices as last time and a different combination there of. With this MMO it sounds like you cannot go back and try to see what would happen if you tried the other option. So you will lose out in this with TOR.

 

Regardless of income people might not want to buy this game because of the other reasons. I don't just go out and buy a game just because I can. The replay value matters and so does the storyline. Genre depends on individual taste.

 

Over time I believe games that allow for community produced content put out more content than what corporate content puts out for an MMO like this.

 

Actually with my computer's size of drive is more out of standard. Computer standards change and so do game sizes. Since my computer is 6yrs or older, I don't think my drive size is up to standard gaming storage capacity.

 

My computer's used space is maybe 30GB. And I said maybe. So you can fit a lot more if you don't have so much excess on it and work from discs and other external storage means. External hard drives are cheap.

 

So I think if your saying others can like you who might not have a very good paying job I believe can afford extra storage space if you can afford paying per month for an MMO you can afford the extra space for a game that has voice overs than text.

 

I have the WoW Demo when I got Starcraft/Broodwar battlechest long time ago. MMOs = long hours of play. I'm a casual gamer who doesn't get on games everyday. I might get this game if it doesn't have the monthly fee.

 

Again economy wise I want to think ahead. And plus why pay a monthly fee for a game you won't be playing everyday. I wouldn't get my money's worth.

 

And I'm the kind ofguy who doesn't believe rumors or hype. People said The Force Unleashed was going to be great all to when it was released. But then many were disappointed. So I don't believe the hype. I believe what I can see like what is already available to us info wise. I don't pre order either. If a game is good and its to where you can't find that game since its sold out for a length of time then that means its probably a good game. Again probably because it depends on my tastes. Such sold outs happened with the Halo games too and not everyone likes Halo. So it also depends on taste.

 

But if few go to pick up a game after it gets released then it might not be that good of a game either. So I'm the kind of guy who waits and sees how the reaction to a released game is. If its sold out it might be worth the wait.

 

I research the game and look at other forums and people's reactions. Like any product I'm going to invest money in I want to know what it is in detail so I can make a more informed decision rather than just believing hype or that its Star Wars. Lucasarts has pumped out a lot of games with the Star Wars name. And not all were good in that public overall reaction wasn't as good. For example Star Wars: Battlegrounds, Rebellion, Star Wars Chess, some street fight ones, and Yoda Puzzle game. So you can see that just because it carries the Star Wars name it might not be as good as some might think due to hype.

 

Because the higher the expectations are the harder the disappointment on release day. I'm glad though that a good portion of the Star Wars games have done well.

 

But that's just me. If I don't have to pay a monthly fee for it thane that means no real commitment.

[Fiestainabox]

@ Astor Kaine & ZTalker

 

Glad I'm not the only person who want's to play this game!

 

1.5 ha, I don't believe Wiki since you can edit the pages yourself so that makes that 1.5 less credible.

Wiki is sourced, at the bottom of the page is their list of credible sources. If theres a mistake or incorrect info on the page, it is often fixed in under 9 seconds. Yeah, sure, calling Wiki uncreditible was true back in the dial up days.

 

If your just playing a xbox game for just four times then maybe that's because you are not playing very good games that have a lot of replay value. You just have to know what games are good. I know of a number I can tell you of.

 

I don't play the same RPG 65 or 70 times, I'm sorry, I just can't do it. The only reason I've been playing fallout for so long is because theres just so much to do in the game. Believe it or not, I've played 93 hours of fallout 3 on one charecter, and 200+ hundred hours of Oblivion on xbox.

 

And figuring I've played 1784 hours of WoW, and I've only ever gotten a single charecter to 80, that tells you how much replayability there is in an MMO, none at all.

 

Also, about the patches for Lucasarts KOTOR games. They could've used patches. Since BioWare, Obsidian, or Lucasarts hasn't issued them we the fans have had to make fixes and other tweaks. Look at all the Team Gizka fixes. Those alone could've been an official patch.

 

Not really, the only patch "Needed" for TSL was the vista patch, and that was more MS's part than Bioware/Obsideon/ Lucasarts.

 

With you being fine about there not being main characters or you not caring that much. With you being fine having your own character let me say this. You may want to make a name for yourself by thinking that, but I assure you this will just turn into another Star Wars Galaxies except with a KOTOR theme to it. It makes me wonder why not just make another expansion for Galaxies. Oh that's right the Galaxies game engine is a little more older than years. So because they are thinking of the dollar signs as Lord2 has said, they are interested in keeping their MMO fan base happy since that is the big number of people and the largest group of people they are making money of of.

 

I'm not fine with the Kotor charecters disapearing off the face of the planet. That's why I'm playing TOR.

 

Besides, if TOR becomes a major sucess, expect a Kotor 3, with the funds Blizzard is making from WoW, they're making Starcraft 3, Diablo 3, and Rumor has it, another MMO. That's good enough for me.

 

Yes mods get old, but new ones are made. Creativity when it comes from fans is not slowed down by meetings, planning, money negotiating, and paper work. So you get your new content curtsy of the community's fanbase. Talk about "We the People".

 

Ztalker to the words right out of my mouth.

 

 

Yup its just Star Wars Galaxies except with a new engine and all KOTORed up. Gotta keep that large group of MMO players with deep pockets happy. Loyalty to long term fans no. Loyalty to money yes.

 

Comparing Galaxies to TOR is like saying KotOR is a single player version of Galaxies.

 

And with it being text in this MMO let me say this. When you've had steak can you really go back to just burger. Or with a DVR do you now that you have a DVR do you really want to go back to the VCR. I didn't think so.

 

Nobodies saying that the MMO is going to be 100% text based dialogue, I'm just saying it's more practical to voice the main charecters, and not "Steve-The-Dude-Over-There"

 

Never had a DVR, never going to get one. Torrents do everything DVR's do without the commercials.

 

Besides, I think everyone hate's the process of burning a DVD-RW when they could just use a VCR to record what they want.

 

Even if it isn't in Alpha stage there is currently enough info to discourage us KOTOR and rpg fans. Comparing the positives and negatives, the negatives for me carry more weight.

 

The disadvantages you listed:

 

• I have to read
  
• I think this game is going to suck
  
• I don't like Galaxies
  
• I don't play games every day
  
• Your not allowed to go back in time
  
• You can't add your own stuff into the game
  

 

I don't buy so many games. I have about eight for Xbox 360 and 4 for the PC soon 5. And four of those are really much older. You see I buy games based on replay value and storyline. KOTOR games have that.

 

And TOR is part of the Old Republic era, except TOR is going to have more content than both KotOR's put together.

 

MMOs are more open ended and don't have a true storyline I don't think. Like I said they are just trying to re energize their MMO base and keep the money from those players flowing. And if they can disadvantage some long term fans that's okay to them because we are a smaller number. Its all numbers and money to them.

 

Yep, as it should be, there a company. You buy the products they make. Your trying to make it like they're supposed to make games FOR you personally, like your own personal development team.

 

Its business yes, but often in business they don't think down the road. Often short term quick profit thinking. Rather than thinking this smaller group of people we might disenfranchise.

 

Technically, they are think down the road with this one, this is a game that they can constently make money off of, and is difficult to pirate, makes plenty of sense down the road.

 

I'm all for business and feel Bioware, Obsidian, and Lucasarts make great games and good patches. But what I'm saying is that with patches produced by any company you look at the past to judge the future.

 

What Lord2 and I are saying is that we do not believe that they'll make more than just a few patches that are very good, but more is needed.

 

Yes TG is making a Restoration mod, but in that mod will be other fixes that we are saying could've been made by Lucasarts. And if they did I'm sure they would've done a good job at making them. There have been many fixes made by community members such as the Telos Training Academy Fix, Kavar Rendezvous Fix, and just recently Sion's Arrival to Peragus Fix. These alone show there was more that could've been patched.

 

There's a difference between "Patches" and "mods." TSL is 100% playable right off the disk. Just because a mod has the word "Fix" in it dosen't mean Obsidion blows at making games, and can't do anything right.

 

So based on past patches being fewer than could've been put out, we are saying that they could've put out more patches for their games based on what community members had to make patch wise themselves. And this is why we think they will repeat the past and not produce enough patches for their games. And I know they can do great patches because BioWare, Lucasarts, and Obsidian do a great job at that.

 

I don't know where people are getting this "TOR won't have any patches" thing, Bioware's making the game, not lucasarts. People are also assuming that in every single player game, patches = new content. Your not going to get a company giving out free content all the the time for a single player game. TOR's going to be the opposite, theres going to be a library off patches with bugfixes, class changes, and new content.

 

 

RPGs can have a lot of replay value in that you can experience differences each time if you don't make the same choices as last time and a different combination there of. With this MMO it sounds like you cannot go back and try to see what would happen if you tried the other option. So you will lose out in this with TOR.

 

As stated in the video doc's for TOR, Not being able to reload a save and check what "Could" have been or change your decision makes the game makes the game more epic. You have to live with your choices, for a forum of people complaining about TOR not having a storyline, this should be right up your alley.

 

Regardless of income people might not want to buy this game because of the other reasons. I don't just go out and buy a game just because I can. The replay value matters and so does the storyline. Genre depends on individual taste.

 

Bioware's promising us a good storyline, they wrote the first KotOR, which had a great storyline, is everything suddenlly thinking they've lost all skill at writing good storylines or something?

 

Over time I believe games that allow for community produced content put out more content than what corporate content puts out for an MMO like this.

 

At the sacrafice of quality, yes. People who arn't for the MMO seem to be conflicting themselves. Look at fallout 3, theres 2 DLC packs out now, both of the are crazy good. There's well over 500 mods out for Fallout 3, and none of them get close to the quality of the DLC's.

 

My computer's used space is maybe 30GB. And I said maybe. So you can fit a lot more if you don't have so much excess on it and work from discs and other external storage means. External hard drives are cheap.

 

Not really, I run everything from my laptop, with 4 programming classes worth of programming tools on it, not to mention my 30 gigs of music. Having an 80 gig epic sized MMO that require's me to install it on my iPod rather than my harddrive.

 

Again economy wise I want to think ahead. And plus why pay a monthly fee for a game you won't be playing everyday. I wouldn't get my money's worth.

 

The problem with that is, most people on this forum have been playing Kotor and TSL since they came out, which is close to 4 years. If you got that much time to play the same game over and over again, you obviously have enough time to play an MMO, and experience a different storyline to boot.

 

And I'm the kind ofguy who doesn't believe rumors or hype. People said The Force Unleashed was going to be great all to when it was released. But then many were disappointed. So I don't believe the hype. I believe what I can see like what is already available to us info wise. I don't pre order either. If a game is good and its to where you can't find that game since its sold out for a length of time then that means its probably a good game. Again probably because it depends on my tastes. Such sold outs happened with the Halo games too and not everyone likes Halo. So it also depends on taste.

 

The Force Unleashed is the exception to every rule in the rule book. If they had actually gave you what was promised in the tech demo's, then I would be playing it now rather than fallout. 90% of the things they promised didn't make the game, or were so poorly done it made people quit the game (I.E Star Destroyer Scene, for me it was the duel with the Robo Jedi dude).

 

If your basing the value of a game off what random people on the internet think, then you've missed 90% of the good games out there. Believe it or not, I play games before I decide whether to buy them.

 

I know a bunch of friends who thought Lord of the Rings:Conquest was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I played the demo for about 6 seconds before I went back to playing Bad Company.

[SD Nihil]

The 1.5 seems hallow when you can edit the page. I've seen pages you can edit just a few months ago. And these sources, I wonder how partnered they are with the game developer. How much in the tank they are. Now if they are simply sites that report on the game and tell you the pros and cons that is more reputable and credible. Because if they are in the tank for that game developer then they are going to be pro that game.

 

Like I said I don't pre order ever. I wait to see the reaction. If it gets sold out that might be a good sign. And if its worth the wait till I can get it then I can wait. During that time or before I've already made myself aware of the game a little more. The pros and cons when I researched the game on un biased sites that simply report on the game. Once its out I look at other player's thoughts on the games

 

Commercials matter too. If for this game they show you a couple cutscenes in that commercial and not some gameplay footage that isn't a good sign off the bat. Often with movies that are not as good they'll showcase for each version of a commercial the same scene because that is the only good scene in that movie. Same thing with that. You read un biased reviews and see what other people thought of it. Same with a game.

 

Before I buy anything I want to know what I'm putting my money towarrds is going to be a good investment. I don't want to waste my money. That's like throwing it into the street. I want to make sure I am going to get my money's worth.

 

And since I'm a casual gamer who plays a game maybe a time or so a week and at the most a week a few hours, and I have a game I have to pay a monthly fee for. Then I'm not sue I'd get my money's worth. Because those other 5 or 6 days out of the week I'm moor involved in life I don't get my money's worth for. If I was playing everyday then if I already made an informed decision when buying the game then I might get my money's worth.

 

So the monthly fe part is a big downside for me and others who just playon occasion unless they like paying for days they don't get on if its as much as me or close during the week. With all games I'm not a fan boy or buy a game because its Star Wars or because the company 9 out of 10 times makes good games. I buy depending on the individual game its self.

 

I save money by doing this, I know the game experience is going to be worth the money, and I can get a lot of play out of it. Yes some games are not meant to be played more than 4 times. Those games I'm not interested in. Those are at the most rent games. And if they have a bunch of cheats and you use them that automatically takes all the challenge out of it.

 

But an RPG where community content is being made for it lasts longer than an MMO in the long run. Not in the short term yes. But years ahead that extra content in hours and in improvements outweighs, at least in my opinion, Expansions that depend if a company wants to and tells you when they'll release it. See I believe in the people of a community since they know what we want because they are us. Company released content might not always do that.

 

As for the other fixes and patches that others made, I'm sure they'd disagree with you in that their work was a good idea. I think there fixes were a good idea and were like a patch. No I'm not an MMO player because I'm a casual occasional gamer who feels if he doesn't play as often he won't get his money's worth if he doesn't play most of the days out of the week.

 

I want a game with no commitment or less. Yes I do pay a yearly fee for Xbox Live. I don't get on everyday with that either. But my money's worth is acceptable to me because I'm paying for that access to all that content that may not be game related.

 

That doesn't make sense. Your playing TOR because you don't like the main characters are gone. Because of that negative your playing the game. I don't get that reason. Explain please. This TOR is KOTOR 3 if you've listened to the E3 vids. Why make a KOTOR 3 RPG when its so much easier in the short term to make an expansion to a game. But that won't even be an expansion because TOR is originally KOTOR 3. And the other episodes will be expansions. That's what the E3 vids said.

 

So please explain your reasoning because that really doesn't make sense. It is KOTOR 3 in MMO form with other episodes added to it in the future. And because of a negative of not having main characters which you said you don't like that is the case you are playing it for that reason. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

I'm not comparing TOR to Galaxies. I'm saying both are MMOs. Both are Star Wars. The only difference is one is Clone Wars or Civil War like. And the other is KOTOR themed. Both very open ended and no real main storyline, no way of going back and trying the other choices. If you chose in one situation to go the LS route, you cannot revert to a prior save and do the DS choice. So you lose out there on content you'll never see. And with the expansions hours compared to the other hours of content you'll never see due to picking one choice over the other and not being able to try the other choice that can in hours outweigh the hours of expansion content. So its a trade off.

 

As for Torrents that's not how I want to do things. I don't want to watch shows on my computer. I want to watch them on the TV. How do I know that show wasn't illegally obtained and put into a torrent. I don't do P2P or those kinds of things. I'm legal and i want something like I said earlier I'll buy it. Tevo you also can have no commercials, its legal, and its on your TV. So unless you have a big computer screen who wants to sit with pop corn around a computer screen.

 

And what my whole point is having text is like having the burger because its less and less quality. Steak in this case would be thus voice over. If it takes up more space because of voice over great. I get my steak. And its a more acceptable trade off in that I don't have to do so much reading. Like I said, I have enough books to read.

 

As in DVR this is like Tevo on the TV. You just select the times and press record. So its pre recorded. Unlike Tevo it doesn't skip commercials, but you can fast forward through them. This has nothing to do with discs. With what my cable company has provided you can have tons of shows saved or hours and have it always keep them as long as you want or space allows. But you don't have a DVR so that might be why your confusing DVD-R's for a DVR player. This is not a DVD player.

 

VHS's are going by the way of the dinosaur, they break, and there will be less VHS's in the future. Just like the newspaper. People like getting their news from the computer or TV, or some other digital means. Again burger or steak. I rather have the steak.

 

You have your reasons for liking it and so do I. I'm not going to convince you and you are not of me either going to convince me.

 

In the long run if it were in multiple RPG forms they'd have more content than just expansions released by the companies.That's just my opinion.

 

Don't get me wrong I am a capitalist and for business, and survival f the fittest. Your fine with this disenfranchising of the KOTOR RPGers because your not one of us. If they were doing an RPG I'm sure you'd b saying what I'm saying of they are disadvantaging you the MMO fan by it being a RPG. And I would say that's business it was their decision. Not saying 100 percent you'd say that. But I'm pretty sure.

 

And I've said some might not want to afford paying the monthly fe due to economy or the fact they don't play MMOs or spend hours on games like others might. So they are out of a game thy could've enjoyed.

 

Notice I keep re enforcing one point with another I've already said. So when you pick it apart and say one thing against this point or that point I re enforce it with another point I already made. Each point is connected to a greater whole and alone they are not the complete answer where as in a whole they are.

 

I never said Obsidian blows at making games. I don't ever get angry because someone doesn't agree with me. But I'm sure like with you assuming that I was saying that Ossian doesn't make good games that I'm probably assuming your angry. I'm sure we are both wrong here.

 

Fixes are not mods. Tweaks are not mods. This is why they have the word fix in the name. Yes you can play any game out of the box usually. But if there is a glitch or something that doesn't do as well as it can if you select a dialog choice and the dialog and story ends and your trapped in a module, then that requires a fix which is not a mod.

 

Again I say they could've made more patches and fixes which if they did I know those companies would've done a good job at making them.

 

And I didn't say either that they won't make patches. Again they make some, but in I and other's opinion not enough in our opinion. They don't make none and they don't make a lot. They make some, but they could make more.

 

And I never said and I don't think others have said patches means more content. But it means like I said before a fix that corrects something. Mods add content or make current content different in some way.

 

You say they'll give all the patches, fixes, and everything, but again I don't believe, hype, rumors, or anticipation. I believe what is in the game once it is released, user reviews, and site reviews of the game. And they all must be un biased and simply grading the game based on the storyline, gameplay, content, and of course if its a monthly fee MMO that I play on occasion I wouldn't get my money's worth since I don't play many days of games out of the week. Again same situation might be for others as well.

 

Storyline to us is not to where its all just a bunch of subplots and no real storyline. Again I have my other reasons as previously stated.

 

Just because if one or other of my points become proven wrong or later those I agree with you on won't change my decision. As long as it is a monthly fee game I'm not buying it. Its not worth the money if you are not playing it enough to make it worth the money.

 

No if it were a pay as you go game like some phone companies provide then there is less commitment. You pay based on your use. To me that might be acceptable because I'm paying for when I play it.

 

But again with all the other negatives it makes me unsure as well. Just my opinion.

 

We never said they don't produce good stories. But in this case we don't like such an open ended and cheaper way of putting the game together with text dialogs and well just re read what I said please. Just my reasons and same for some others.

 

I think the community makes quality mods. Are you saying they don't. I don't think you are. I think both expansions made by companies and mods and content made by fans have the capacity to be quality and non quality. I'm simply saying in the long run I believe fans produce more mods and content than companies will put out for games in the long run.

 

That is a laptop and your space capacity might not be as big as mine. But again mine is not up to desktop standards. I have bought hard drives that are cheap, and flash drives, and discs can be cheap, and are. Heck I got a bunch of, a tube of CD-RWs for just 20 bucks. Could've been less I think though.

 

And that's the thing. For big games I don't think most play them on laptops. Yes they can do things that normal computers can do, but their storage capacity might not be the same as a desktop since a laptop is supposed to be portable and smaller. Your comparing the capacity of a laptop to a desktop. Its not the same.

 

I have played the two games since they came out. And with KOTOR Save Editors, warping, and cheats you get to see more of the content quicker.

 

Yes The Force Unleashed was an exception in that it didn't stand up to the hype. The same was for other Star Wars games, and some other Lucasarts games. I believe all companies have games they've made that don't live up to the hype. Does this mean they do bad games. No. It just means like I said some games don't live up to the hype. So hype, anticipation, and rumors you can't always count on. So I don't.

 

I count on sales, user revues, and un biased game reporting. And it must not be an MMO due to I don't have enough time or care to be on a screen that long. I spend more time in life than it would take to get my money's worth on an MMO that you have to pay a monthly fee for.

 

Not all games can you go out to the game store and rent. And gamefly that's another monthly fee. And to get your money's worth you have to be renting enough games every month to equal what they charge you at the rent store. ANd if you are not checking out games every month then you've wasted money. And un biased reviews by fans and sites can't be all wrong especially if they are grading the game based on the game, not on what company or franchise it comes from.

 

Now then. I am curious as to how many KOTOR RPG fans to TOR MMO fans. Since there are two forums (TOR and KOTOR) I think someone should make a poll to see who is the majority. And I think that poll should be mirrored on both TOR and KOTOR forums since some that are on one forum might not head to the other. This way we can tally up the total. And in both you can see who were the individuals who voted in one poll on the TOR forum and also on the KOTOR forum. Those people can be counted as one. But in total it might give a better idea who is the majority here. Just a thought because I'm curious.

[Tommycat]

Well gee... nice to know I don't qualify as a KOTOR fan. Guess all that playing of K1 and K2 was for nothing. Maker forbid I actually like the idea of an MMO.

 

A poll asking for fans of TWO games that WERE RELEASED versus fans of a game that IS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT THAT NONE OF US HAVE PLAYED. Yeah that's a fair poll to find out what is more popular.[/sarcasm]

 

We know tiny bits about TOR. we know almost all we can about the KOTORs.

 

As for making a name for yourself... Well I'm not the best at anything on SWG, but I sure as heck have a name on the Flurry servers in Galaxies(Vadarios). My guild has a HUGE name on Galaxies(KAI). Now that's Galaxies obviously. But I think really making a name for yourself is better than being given a name(Revan/Exile). I may just be a smuggler, but people know me. They show respect that is earned through being a respectable person. I BUILT my back story. I built my reputation. It wasn't just handed to me as a plot point. I like that much better.

 

Many people talk of Galaxies like it was a bad thing. No, it was not. The NGE was a bad thing. Galaxies itself was very good. Actually, even now Galaxies is good. If the game had launched as it is now, It may have done far better. It might have even had better reviews.

 

Monthly fees... Sheesh. Galaxies costs a whole $15 a month. That's a bargain bin game a month. Three trips to McDonalds. One trip to Outback(unless you're a jerk that doesn't tip). And for the amount of content you get(and admittedly, Galaxies is one of the most lacking MMO's for content) it's still a bargain.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see the game before I say it's all that and a bag of chips. But if you're saying it sucks when it hasn't been released, you are a fool. Heck they haven't even said if it will have a monthly fee. I DO know that they have stated at least once in an interview that they understand a lot of people like playing games solo, and have been designing the game with that in mind.

 

Interesting that you chose the burger analogy for the voice... Seeing as how the meal would be the all you can eat buffet of TOR, and the value menu at mcdonalds of an RPG. Sure you can add ketchup, or random other stuff to your burger with the McD burger, but you lose out on all of the other items you COULD choose.

[SD Nihil]

No one is certain. We are just speaking on what info is currently available and if that info stays constant without changes. But if it becomes a no fee game which I doubt it, I might get it tehn. But if the fee is really low thn that might make me get it too.

 

I jus have to know I'm getting my money's worth. I mean if your only having time during the week or desire to play maybe a few hours or on just a day out of the week it might not be the best thing you get. But if its low and you feel that does amount to playing that small time during the week then you would be getting your money's worth.

[Ztalker]

^ This sound a whole lot 'better' then the 'It will suck' posts from before.

 

Of course you are right on the content. If it isn't there (like in Galaxies) the money's worth balance shifts. But if Bioware keeps on pumping content (which I believe they will seen their history) it's of course a better buy I fully agree with you.

[Threepwood4life]

I wished we could have had KOTOR 3 instead of an MMO but if thats the direction they are wanting to go then I guess thats where its gonna end up. Downside to it is we have to pay a subscription in order to play which in this climate I don't think anyone could afford to keep paying all the time maybe for a few hours at least but if BioWare keeps promising updates and addtional content that will keep this going for a long time.

[SD Nihil]

And I agree with Darth Groovy on the latest LucasCast that they really are putting their eggs in one basket (lucasarts). At least from what I remember I think it was DG who said that. Its a gamble. TFU didn't live up to the hype. Will this MMO, well see. And that's what I'm saying about the monthy or whatever fee. If I were to do it I usually play games maybe once or twice a week. Maybe at the most a week a couple or so hours. I just do other things. And so it has to be a price that makes me feel for that little time it makes the money worth it by it not costing a lot. And your right who know due to this economic environment if others will be able to contineu to play it long term.

 

All those other things I'm not saying it will suck. I'm saying with the current info right now to me there is more negatives in my opinion. For others it may be all or a lot of posatives. For me its not. But like I said info can change even before this alpha stage. I'm just giving my take of at this point.

 

But other reasons aside, the real deciding factor for me is the monthy fee and if I'll be able to afford it down the road, will I play it often enough to get my money out of it, and what will the fee be. Other things can change. a lot over time. Look at Starcraft Ghost. It later became Starcraft 2. A large departure from the original plan. So anything can happen. Again we'll see.

[Fiestainabox]

Look at Starcraft Ghost. It later became Starcraft 2. A large departure from the original plan. So anything can happen. Again we'll see.

 

Umm, where'd you get this idea? Starcraft:Ghost is most definatly not Starcraft 2.

 

Dunno how you'd get an RTS out of a Shooter so late in development.

 

Unless you trying to say that Bioware is going to make K3 instead of TOR, which is just plain stupid based on the work they've done so far. I can see K3 AFTER TOR's done. Not replacing TOR, that would be the biggest waste of money since Battlefront 3 was canceled.

[Darth Avlectus]

Arrogance. Read better and you'll realise most people here are looking at this project with great concern. And they will NOT call their character Jedilover1994.

 

*brevity*

Man, you sure like to 'school' people, don't ya?

 

That's true anyone with **** for a job can afford it or time on xbox360 provided they get over the "hurdles" first.

 

With my drinkin' days long behind me, I just simply prefer to save my $$$ for big things. You know, property, duplexes, equipment...making solid investments (instead of throwing cash into the atrocity pool called wall street), and socking $$$ away, going for long term. Why is it a crime to save for retirement in your twenties?

 

So it is simply financial savvy on my part. As far as gaming...mehm --it's cyclical. I'm on my downward slump. I'll probably make a few mods or something, and when I get bored I'll just move onto something else until I catch the gaming bug again. I got plenty of other stuff I can do for fun.

 

 

I wished we could have had KOTOR 3 instead of an MMO but if thats the direction they are wanting to go then I guess thats where its gonna end up. Downside to it is we have to pay a subscription in order to play which in this climate I don't think anyone could afford to keep paying all the time maybe for a few hours at least but if BioWare keeps promising updates and addtional content that will keep this going for a long time.

 

With the timing such that other MMORPG's are getting worn out and tired, I believe that a business model like this one would work for a general vast audience (ok LEXX, yes I'm paraphrasing you, but you make a good point ) with the right timing for a larger exposure. Other mmorpg's are getting tired and worn out, people will be looking for something else.

 

As far as community, there will be those of us who do go for it, and those who don't. (shrugs)

 

When it gets all worn out and tired...I'm sure loyalists will stay and everyone else will move on.

 

It's just the way our world works I guess. Things may get a lot quieter around here. I see the SW:TOR thread heating up, though. JUUUUUUST my .