The Existence of God

[obi]

So yes, I know that I have just returned to the forums after a leave, but since this is serious discussion and all of that, and I care for each one of you and all of that, I want to pose a question to those that believe there is no God. I am not doing this to insult you, mock your stance, make you cry or make you feel like a non-person. I am asking out of sheer curiosity. Now, the only thing I am asking is that you actually have a valid reason for this, and you do not cuss/flame me or others. The question?

 

Why do you not believe there is a God? What prompted you in your personal life to believe that no creator of the universe exists?

 

Thanks for responding!

[Blix]

I don't know, but I think there needs to be a little bit more explaining as to how the universe was created other than "and then there was light". We're also talking about infinities; universes and galaxies with planets we have not seen yet.

[mur'phon]

Why do you not believe there is a God?

 

Because I have never seen proof, or heard convincing enough arguments in favor of one.

 

What prompted you in your personal life to believe that no creator of the universe exists?

 

Nothing promted me per say. I was brought up without belief, to the point where I didn't know what an Atheist was before befriending a Christian, and didn't learn my parents belief before becomming a teenager. I maintain this stance because I have yet to see evidence of the universe(s) being created by any diety.

[On_Your_Six]

To answer this question, there's one thing I need to know, which God?

[obi]

To answer this question, there's one thing I need to know, which God?

 

Any. I mean, any God. There's no leaving anything out. I'm just doing some research and figured "why not?" I have a heart for people from different backgrounds and different passions and everyone's story. I am a huge people person. I know about the people I go to church with, so what would be the point in asking them why they *do* believe? I already know their answer =P

[On_Your_Six]

Perfect, here's my reasoning for not believing, or what should be more correctly put as -spend time- believing.

 

I don't believe there's any religion out there that has gotten it "right", given this, it hasn't stopped them from condemning or killing in the name of their given religion. I think humanity as a species would have much more vast accomplishments without this preoccupation with God(s).

 

It's weird having so many people that want some intangible thing to judge them, yet very rarely do they act in accordance with the doctrine which they stand beside.

 

It's not a matter of not believing, as not needing to believe.

 

I'd rather ask you, why should I believe in God, and given that, why should I condemn the way anyone else lives for not acting in accordance with the doctrine that I happen to stand beside.

[obi]

I'd rather ask you, why should I believe in God, and given that, why should I condemn the way anyone else lives for not acting in accordance with the doctrine that I happen to stand beside.

 

 

Well, that is not the intent of this thread. I am simply curious. If you want to know why I believe the way I do, see thread "the OTHER existence of God"

 

But for the record- and anyone here that knows me can attest to this (especially in the swamp)- I do not condemn anyone that believes differently than me, nor do I persecute. No one is perfect, and if I think that I have the right to pick someone's faults out to them, then I am wrong. (see my sig for the quote I live by)

If you want my honest opinion, I give it in love, but I do not look down on anybody. We're all on this planet together.

[On_Your_Six]

I did check your other thread, but unfortunately it's deeply flawed, in that you need to believe that the Christ figure -actually- did come to Earth and was -actually- the literal Son of God, as opposed to say, a wise radical philosopher (I really do appreciate how believing that did affect your life, and I'm glad you stuck through it, but I think that's more an extension in belief in yourself than any God or Jesus, but that's imho).

 

Now, about the condemnation. Sure, I understand that there are a great many cases where an individual who believes in this or that wouldn't be one to condemn others who thought or believed differently (individual belief is often a lovely thing), but when you consider that when it comes to the masses, there is a great deal of persecution that goes on, which is completely undisputable. Hence I'm more a proponent to individual spiritualism, rather than one to stand under a banner looking across a battlefield in the name of the God I'm not supposed to kill for, except when people disagree with me.

 

Bottom line, I think our accomplishments would be so much greater if we didn't have this (what is becoming archaic) preoccupation.

[obi]

Well, once again, I am not trying to debate this god or that god, or if there is one. My intention, honestly, is to just see what people say. Mostly out of curiousity. There is no point is saying my explanation is flawed- because if you say your deal is right, then just say so- but give reasons why you say so. I did that, and I just asked for that in return.

 

I promise you that I am not here to conquer lucasforums in a crusade lol

[On_Your_Six]

Haha, I appreciate your candor and humour, I'll come back to this thread when I have time to make a proper reply.

 

Cheers.

[GarfieldJL]

Try looking at all the things in the Bible that were thought to be nothing more than myths that have actually been discovered. Such as a bunch of Egyptian chariot remains in the Red Sea...

[SkinWalker]

I want to pose a question to those that believe there is no God. [...] [T]he only thing I am asking is that you actually have a valid reason for this [...] Why do you not believe there is a God? What prompted you in your personal life to believe that no creator of the universe exists?

 

Thanks for responding!

 

I've seen no good reason to believe any gods exist. To me, the universe looks just as it should if no gods were present. To put this in perspective, I'd ask if you believe in Zeus or Atun (each one of the many gods in the Greek and Egyptian pantheons of antiquity). If you answer as I suspect, with a "no," my next question would be why not? Both are gods that were believed for periods longer than Yahweh, so what makes these gods irrelevant to you?

[GarfieldJL]

I've seen no good reason to believe any gods exist. To me, the universe looks just as it should if no gods were present. To put this in perspective, I'd ask if you believe in Zeus or Atun (each one of the many gods in the Greek and Egyptian pantheons of antiquity). If you answer as I suspect, with a "no," my next question would be why not? Both are gods that were believed for periods longer than Yahweh, so what makes these gods irrelevant to you?

 

In the case of the Egypt didn't they think their rulers were Gods as well? When we compare the Greek and Roman gods of antiquity to Yahweh, there are some marked differences, primarily the weird instances in history, that they are now trying to explain via science, because what they thought didn't happen is looking more and more like it happened.

 

There are even some instances in modern times that look mighty odd to have been pulled off. Like Israel holding off multiple countries at the same time when they first became a country.

 

There have been incidents that should have ended in death that have not. There have been unexplainable events that have happened that you really can't explain via science.

[SkinWalker]

When we compare the Greek and Roman gods of antiquity to Yahweh, there are some marked differences, primarily the weird instances in history, that they are now trying to explain via science, because what they thought didn't happen is looking more and more like it happened.

 

... There are even some instances in modern times that look mighty odd to have been pulled off. Like Israel holding off multiple countries at the same time when they first became a country.

 

There have been incidents that should have ended in death that have not. There have been unexplainable events that have happened that you really can't explain via science.

 

These are arguments for ignorance. Just because you don't know the answer or cause doesn't imply that the dominant myth of your culture is either the answer or the cause.

 

What are your good reasons for believing in a god?

[SW01]

In the case of the Egypt didn't they think their rulers were Gods as well? When we compare the Greek and Roman gods of antiquity to Yahweh, there are some marked differences, primarily the weird instances in history

 

That is in fact one of the reasons that I am uncertain as to the existence of a particular God or Gods, while not necessarily a true atheist (I would say that I have always been a bit more of an agnostic than anything else). My point is that there are reports of 'weird instances in history' attributed to the ancient pantheons. One in particular, and entirely off the top of my head, comes from Livius' history, during the Second Punic War - lightning strikes on important temples taken to be warnings from Iuppiter, often followed by an important engagement.

 

I suppose my point is essentially the same as Skinwalker's. For all the bases we have for belief in one God, we have same for others - and that for me contributes to a belief in none.

[obi]

Well, the point of this thread was not to debate whether or not God exists. I just want to know why people who do not believe in God came to that understanding.

 

Like I said, I promise I am not trying to convert anyone into anything. I am not trying to Christianize the chambers. I am just curious about people. I just want to know.

 

But for skinwalker, if you want to know why I believe the way I do, just look at "the other existence of God" thread, I lay out my reasons. Once again, not for debate purposes, but for just letting you know why I do.

[GarfieldJL]

These are arguments for ignorance. Just because you don't know the answer or cause doesn't imply that the dominant myth of your culture is either the answer or the cause.

 

What are your good reasons for believing in a god?

 

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/content/view/48/56/

 

 

It's a secondary or trinary source, so I'm trying to find a better one. However, it is documented that the Egyptians were known to destroy records and try to pretend like events didn't happen. See the History Channel concerning King Tut. (I can't think of the spelling at the moment so I'm just using the nickname)

 

I can't see them driving their Chariots into the sea for the fun of it.

[SW01]

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/content/view/48/56/

 

I can't see them driving their Chariots into the sea for the fun of it.

 

I have always found the Santorini eruption theory quite compelling for the events of the 'Red' Sea crossing - Source 1, Source 2. And of course there could be other possibilities - it is not unheard of for an opposing army to be driven into a body of water.

 

But, and more on-topic, that sort of thing hasn't really been a major factor for me in dispelling faith - I have always been open to the idea of God(s) bringing about their will by nature - by using evolution, volcanoes, tsunamis, et cetera.

 

(And on records, don't forget the Apocrypha or 2000 years of manipulation, misinterpretation and mistranslation of text - and that's just the approximate amount of time the New Testament of the Bible has had to be corrupted. Think how long we've been messing around with the truly ancient theological texts.)

[True_Avery]

See the History Channel concerning King Tut. (I can't think of the spelling at the moment so I'm just using the nickname)

You may want to re-think your source when your source is the same channel that plays "monster hunters", "UFO hunters", "god versus the devil", and other nonsense shows.

 

History Channel has proved it is willing to put factually incorrect shows on the air, which puts everything they post into question.

 

I can't see them driving their Chariots into the sea for the fun of it.

How do you know they were not dumped? Fell in? Caught in a battle or stopped working at one of the land bridges?

 

The funny thing is about these chariots being found is that these chariots were never actually found. Nobody has ever brought a wheel up. We have pictures from people who claim to have seen such, but no wheels or chariots sitting in museums saying "That was at the bottom of the red sea!", not counting the fact that going down there looking/pillaging/etc is against the law so people that claim to have found these wheels are also criminals.

 

And just because there could be a well known form of travel rotting at the bottom of a line of water doesn't mean that god sucked them down there.

 

I could go on, but I'll let the Anthropologist wipe the floor with your suppositions.

[SkinWalker]

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/content/view/48/56/

 

 

It's a secondary or trinary source, so I'm trying to find a better one. However, it is documented that the Egyptians were known to destroy records and try to pretend like events didn't happen. See the History Channel concerning King Tut. (I can't think of the spelling at the moment so I'm just using the nickname)

 

I can't see them driving their Chariots into the sea for the fun of it.

 

More arguments from ignorance. Can you ever formulate an argument without resorting to fallacious premises?

 

The "chariot claim" you're going back to at each opportunity is just what I thought, a spurious claim by the late fraudster Ron Wyatt. Before his death, Wyatt fancied himself an "amateur" archaeologist -except he hadn't any archaeological experience or training at all, making even his "amateur" status questionable.

 

His claim is that he found "chariot wheels" at the bottom of the Red Sea, although the artifacts he claimed to have found have never been seen or examined by anyone else but Wyatt. But there are several problems with Wyatt's claims. The most significant being no one else has seen the alleged wheel except Wyatt nor did Wyatt demonstrate that the wheels couldn't have arrived at the bottom of the Red Sea by other means (i.e. sinking boats -a very common problem on the sea). Moreover, its telling that he shows multiple styles of wheels: a four-spoke Florence style and a six- or eight-spoke wheel. These are indicative of different periods and different rulers. If a "parting" of the Red Sea is the only method they could arrive, is this evidence of two partings? Or is it just evidence of two different shipwrecks -assuming that it is possible for ships to be present on the Red Sea; for ships to carry chariots as cargo (or at least their wheels); for ships to sink; and for a wooden chariot wheel to survive the waters of the Red Sea for 4,000 years.

 

So why is this on topic? Because I've taken a single point that Garfield has suggested is "good reason" to believe in his god and shown that it is not good evidence at all.

 

Arguments from ignorance are the poorest reasons to arrive at any conclusion. For me to believe in something so extraordinary as a god, there must be an accompaniment of reason that is equally extraordinary. Not being able to explain something doesn't mean I get to inject "goddidit."

 

I don't accept your gods for the same reason you don't accept the gods of the ancient Egyptians, Maya, Greeks, Hawaiians, etc. There just isn't any good evidence or reason to do so.

[Astor]

Do I believe there is a god? No.

 

Like Murph, i've seen no evidence of a god. And, it's cliche, but i've seen far too many good people have bad things happen to them to make me think that there is a benevolent, caring god.

[obi]

With all due respects to skinwalker, true_, and Garf, I really wasn't trying to start a debate. I know that religion (or lack therof) rises passion- but I promise I am not trying to start a debate about the existence of God. I just want to know who believes in what, and why they do or do not.

 

Trust me! I'm an evangelist and pastor. I want nothing more then to see you come to my Jesus, and I think I lay out a pretty good beginning case in my "the OTHER existence of God" thread. I mean, I can start another thread devoted to debate, but I've been doing it on youtube for a while, and there are certain things that the internet prohibits that are very effective in a live debate. For example, the use of the words"fallacy," "ignorant," "retard," and "moron," often come up on the internet.

 

Let me just say, that if I do get into a debate, it is not coming from an ignorant, fallicious, retarded, or moronic view. I have good reasons for my faith. Even atheists call me a skilled debator. (not tooting my own horn, I am just saying).

 

That is why I do not like engagements on the internet. I mean, I show someone stats, facts, and present them logical arguement (which they claim to have SO much of), and then they just end up cussing me out and calling me ignorant telling me to read a science book. Little do they know that I am in a degree program FOR health sciences, and a lot of my information that I use to debate COMES STRAIGHT FROM a science book.

So no, I probably will not debate over the internet. Too much freedom to act like a jackass.

[edlib]

I grew up a moderately active non-denominational Christian who has since morphed into apathetic-agnosticism.

 

I cannot conclusively prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural... hence the agnosticism.

 

However: I have decided to always live my life in exactly the same fashion even if the issue is ever settled (in either way)... hence the apathy.

[mur'phon]

By all means start a debate thread, if you dislike the "jackasses", do it for the sake of those who sit on the fence. If you think you have sound arguments, I see little reason for not doing it, with any luck it'll push some down on your side of the fence.

[obi]

By all means start a debate thread' date=' if you dislike the "jackasses", do it for the sake of those who sit on the fence. If you think you have sound arguments, I see little reason for [b']not[/b] doing it, with any luck it'll push some down on your side of the fence.

 

I was actually thinking about it, seeing the heat this thread ignited. But if you want an semi-in-depth look at why I believe the way I do, there is a short essay in "The OTHER existence of God" thread, right here in the senate chambers.