Collumbine style masacre prevented in UK

[Pho3nix]

I have to say I'm with Sithy and Sabre on this one.

 

Hate and depression are two concoctions which are potentially deadly, I've been on that path myself. Luckily I grew out of it.

 

People seem to forget that murder, torture, bullying, war etc. are all part of human nature, It is extremely naive to assume that you would not do said things if you lived the lives of said people / and or pushed to the edge like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

 

Given the right circumstances, I believe that even the most staunch pacifist has the ability to take a human life.

[Web Rider]

What is the nature of fake killing as opposed to real killing then? Simulated murder of fictional characters? Murdering people that don't exist to start with is ethical, as opposed to murdering people that do?

Well yes, under the stated condition that THEY EXIST.

 

I didn't say that those who enjoy fake-killing enjoy real killing, because I was talking about killing, the basic idea of killing: destroying the life of a being. I'm not saying that gamers are monsters, I wouldn't be here if that were true. But death and mass murder is a marketable in entertainment: why?

Game people don't have lives, they don't have free will, they are no more "human" than your screen saver. Sure they look like people, and they act like people, but that's only because they're programmed to do so. Saying that is like saying if you take down a mannequin in Macy's you're dismembering someone.

 

Even if we do consider the people that you mention, who enjoy fake-killing and not real killing, why do they enjoy fake-killing? What is their motivation for this? Why do they find this satisfying, or fun? The examples I gave were games where you didn't have a motivation to kill, mind you. And despite this, people enjoy playing these to torture and murder fictional characters, or commit manslaughter on them.

Probably because they realize that killing real people is bad, but also realize they have urges to do it sometimes. Anyone who works in retail knows at least one customer you want to just punch in the face for being an idiot/moron/jerk/whatever. I mean really, just because I don't take any pleasure from it or want to go destroy the world doesn't mean I don't think some people need a swift kick in the rear.

 

Violent games are just a logical extension of this. With the exception of vampires, Nazis and zombies. No matter how human you make them, they're always OK to kill, even IRL.

 

And you were very fortunate to have that ability, it makes you a much stronger person in mind than many. But it cannot discount that people have weaknesses. I don't think what they were planning was in any way right, but it's rather cruel in itself to discount them just because you can't understand.

 

"Can't understand" is not what I said. I said I "won't look at it that way." Weakness is NOT an excuse. It will NEVER be an acceptable excuse. Are some people weak in ways others are strong? Of course. Does that make it OK to break down and decide to kill people? No it doesn't. Everyone is capable of either coming to terms with what they've been delt, or better yet, overcoming it and being better for it. At no point do you get to say "well, my life sucked, so everyone needs to die." and get people to feel sorry for you because you "weren't strong enough". It's not a matter of strength, it's a matter of choice. Instead of choosing to tough it out, you chose to give in.

 

Some people will never like you, others will outright hate you. Some people will be kind to you. This is the way of the world, always has been, always will be. You are free to remove yourself from it, but at no point do you have to right to decide for others when their time is up.

[Sabretooth]

Probably because they realize that killing real people is bad, but also realize they have urges to do it sometimes. Anyone who works in retail knows at least one customer you want to just punch in the face for being an idiot/moron/jerk/whatever. I mean really, just because I don't take any pleasure from it or want to go destroy the world doesn't mean I don't think some people need a swift kick in the rear.

 

Violent games are just a logical extension of this. With the exception of vampires, Nazis and zombies. No matter how human you make them, they're always OK to kill, even IRL.

Ah, and now we come to the point I'm trying to make. The difference is, these kids saw a world filled with the customers you just mentioned. They saw a world where every person had been converted into a Zombie Nazi Vampire who wanted to make them the same. It's that same unflinching need to destroy them, that violent urge that took them.

 

Violence, both real and simulated stems from that intrinsic human urge to fight, to attack and to conquer. It is manifested in many ways, in war, in politics, in sport, and civilization has made us view some of these ways as proper, and others as improper. It makes sense when the United States goes to war against a known threat in Afghanistan, as a formal declaration of war. Not so much when a few kids conduct a personal jihad against the world.

 

Instead of choosing to tough it out, you chose to give in.

Interesting you use this sentence, because the kids used this exact ideal,but in the opposite way you intend. They saw the world as a machine of conformism that wants to consume them with its lies, deceit and unfairness. Rather than give in to it, rather than to conform, they chose to fight it and deal as much damage to it before going down.

[Jae Onasi]

The problem, Sabre, is that they were targeting the wrong people. Even in war we try not to target the innocent. These kids knew what they were doing was wrong, or they wouldn't be planning their suicides to escape the heavy penalties for their killing spree. I understand their motivation,but that doesn't make it right. Planning the deaths of innocents is still evil, regardless of whether they think they're innocent or not. All their thinking shows us is that they were contemplating actions based on faulty reasoning for selfish purposes. We may have such urges from time to time, particularly if someone has hurt someone we care about. However, most of us have the self control not to act on these impulses.

[El Sitherino]

However, most of us have the self control not to act on these impulses.

isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point

most!= all.

[Jae Onasi]

isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point

most!= all.

 

If you're trying to argue that what they're doing is excusable because they lack the self control to conform to the most basic societal rules, I will vehmently disagree. I understand something is very wrong with their thought processing, but it makes them no less dangerous. A mass killer is a menace to society, regardless of reason or motive.

[Web Rider]

isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point

most!= all.

 

Could the make a deterinination between who to kill and who not to as evidenced by the message to the girl not to come to school? Yes.

Could they on some level comprehend what they were doing was wrong, and thus limit their effects to specific targets? Yes.

Did they calculate and plan instead of act on a moments notice? yes.

 

Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.

[Totenkopf]

Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.

 

I agree. Premeditation clearly denotes a sense of control. Now that they'll hopefully be locked up they can receive all the sypathetic attention they apparently need.

[Sabretooth]

The problem, Sabre, is that they were targeting the wrong people.

 

No, to them there were no innocents. As I've said, they saw the society as one being.

 

I'm not saying that what they did was right or that they don't deserve to be locked up, just that they aren't the horrific, twisted, warped monsters that people make them out to be. They are as human as any of us.

[El Sitherino]

If you're trying to argue that what they're doing is excusable because they lack the self control to conform to the most basic societal rules, I will vehmently disagree.

Jae, sit back for just a moment, breathe deep, and remember who you're talking to. You know very well I'm in no way excusing them, I'm just saying that clearly these boys were not stable average people.

 

I understand something is very wrong with their thought processing, but it makes them no less dangerous. A mass killer is a menace to society, regardless of reason or motive.

And I'm pretty sure no one has said otherwise.

My argument is that it's foolish to simply be angry at these boys. I'm upset by their plans, but I'm equally, if not more, upset that there is a society refusing to accept responsibility for creating it's own monsters.

 

Could the make a deterinination between who to kill and who not to as evidenced by the message to the girl not to come to school? Yes.

Could they on some level comprehend what they were doing was wrong, and thus limit their effects to specific targets? Yes.

Did they calculate and plan instead of act on a moments notice? yes.

 

Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.

I still don't understand how that refutes that they are not like most people? Perhaps I should have better edited down my quote of Jae's post.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure why you're attempting to argue with me, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, I just think it's stupid to not also point the finger at society. Do you get mad when you put food infront of a dog and it eats it?

[Web Rider]

I still don't understand how that refutes that they are not like most people? Perhaps I should have better edited down my quote of Jae's post.

I'm pretty sure I'm saying they are like most people, they just made different choices.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure why you're attempting to argue with me, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, I just think it's stupid to not also point the finger at society. Do you get mad when you put food infront of a dog and it eats it?

I think I already addressed that in my first post actually. Of course there's blame to be put on society, but society didn't make these kids idolize murderers. They may have made them feel unwanted and unappreciated, but that alone is not enough to make kids into killers. They could have just as easily become really close friends who played pool and took martial arts, EXCEPT for their existing persuasion to idolize murderers.

 

I don't think society made them that way, but I do think society pushed them into a place where they were more susceptible to such thoughts.

 

But, we don't know what went on in their lives to lead up to this. What they claim is the reason why may or may not be the truth, they could have had lots of people try to befriend them and be kind to them, but instead refused such hospitality on the grounds of being "cool" by being the "outcast".

[Jae Onasi]

No, to them there were no innocents. As I've said, they saw the society as one being.

It's irrelevant how they saw these people--they were innocent nonetheless. Just because these 2 boys decided everyone was guilty did not make everyone guilty. I understand what you're saying, but their thinking is incorrect.

 

I'm not saying that what they did was right or that they don't deserve to be locked up, just that they aren't the horrific, twisted, warped monsters that people make them out to be. They are as human as any of us.

You're perhaps confusing human and 'humane'. These 2 boys can be human, yet still be horrific, twisted, warped monsters at the same time. Just because they're humans doesn't mean they had any humane feelings for the rest of us, as you or I do. What they were planning to do was horrific, twisted, warped, and monstrous. Serial killers and mass murderers are all human. Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy were child molesters and mass murderers, and Dahmer cannibalized his victims. They are all horrific, twisted, warped monsters despite being members of the human race.

 

Sure, something's very broken inside their heads. Society may have contributed to that. Lack of intervention by adults who could have done something positive about their negative school experience may have contributed to that. Their parents likely contributed. They themselves likely had mental health issues that either went undiagnosed, or untreated, or they refused to take treatment. They could have channeled their energy into something a lot more positive. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet pursued those plans anyway. It was a conscious decision on their parts, and they are old enough to take responsibility for those plans.

 

Sometimes you have to call it like you see it. They're monstrous humans who need to be locked away so they don't hurt anyone else until such time that whatever inside of them is broken can be fixed. If it can't be fixed, they can't be let out.

[jrrtoken]

It's irrelevant how they saw these people--they were innocent nonetheless. Just because these 2 boys decided everyone was guilty did not make everyone guilty. I understand what you're saying, but their thinking is incorrect.

How? While I'm sure that they reached a very morbid conclusion, there's a very good chance that they had the same thought capacity as anyone else - they simply reached a wholly different conclusion. While it is unfortunate that they attempted to resort to violence, I'm sure that many factors affected their judgment, and therefore, they approached the conclusion that any other human being would reach when under unsavory conditions: a very hastily put-together one, with questionable judgment.

You're perhaps confusing human and 'humane'. These 2 boys can be human, yet still be horrific, twisted, warped monsters at the same time.

Explain. I'm sure that anyone can be considered "monsters", Jae, but the boys in question weren't mentally impaired; their rantings clearly indicate process of thought and reason, so they certainly can't be mentally impaired.

They could have channeled their energy into something a lot more positive.

Could they? If I'm going by what they believed, they certainly were under extreme depression, and knowing from personal experience, anyone can feel trapped and helpless.

They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet pursued those plans anyway. It was a conscious decision on their parts, and they are old enough to take responsibility for those plans.

They were barely 18; even by that age individuals are subject to foolishness, why is this any different?

Sometimes you have to call it like you see it. They're monstrous humans who need to be locked away so they don't hurt anyone else until such time that whatever inside of them is broken can be fixed. If it can't be fixed, they can't be let out.

...then that only contributes to the problem. Without rehabilitation and prevention of behavior such as this, there will only be more violence enacted by troubled students. If we are to simply isolate the "troubled" individuals, then what message do we send to other potential school shooters? That society doesn't care about them? That their thinking is as criminal as any other mass murderer?

[Darth Avlectus]

How? While I'm sure that they reached a very morbid conclusion, there's a very good chance that they had the same thought capacity as anyone else - they simply reached a wholly different conclusion. While it is unfortunate that they attempted to resort to violence, I'm sure that many factors affected their judgment, and therefore, they approached the conclusion that any other human being would reach when under unsavory conditions: a very hastily put-together one, with questionable judgment.

 

Ok, if 'incorrect' is relative, then I guess their thinking was 'subjective' and had a case of tunnel vision where there were, in fact, other options, they just didn't see. Why didn't they see it? Presumably a combination of their desire, their mental state, and their selectivity. Maybe they chose not to, maybe they hadn't been set right. Who knows?

 

However, it isn't as though this is such an easy thing to choose to do either: and it isn't as though some kind of conflict never came up along the way. Surely it must have.

 

So, it's just kind of hard to feel sorry for them when it is conceivable that they did at one point see these other people as presumably innocent. They forwent any notion of innocence amongst society's population--at least that portion thereof.

 

Does that not stand to reason?

 

<snip> their rantings clearly indicate process of thought and reason, so they certainly can't be mentally impaired.Could they?

 

It also shows premeditation with intent to harm amongst what I said above about forgoing that others may not be guilty.

 

If I'm going by what they believed, they certainly were under extreme depression, and knowing from personal experience, anyone can feel trapped and helpless.

 

If you're having problems, you sort them out. Despite their rational thinking, what was their ultimate goal at the end? Had they even thought that far? Or was it all acting upon desire?

 

They were barely 18; even by that age individuals are subject to foolishness, why is this any different?

Different from?

 

...then that only contributes to the problem. Without rehabilitation and prevention of behavior such as this, there will only be more violence enacted by troubled students. If we are to simply isolate the "troubled" individuals, then what message do we send to other potential school shooters? That society doesn't care about them? That their thinking is as criminal as any other mass murderer?

 

Look, frankly, I have been in a similar situation growing up. And I do agree that there should be some kind of interception w.r.t. preventing this sort of thing which goes beyond just punishing. By that I mean send all youth a message of some kind that says "you *are* a part of society", "things don't need to end badly", and lastly "what is it that makes life worth living to you?".

 

This case, however, is after the fact. Maybe they never really wanted to hurt anyone and felt driven to this. I've been there before, on the collision path. I got off of it. I always figured there ought to be some kind of way I can carve a niche for myself, it didn't have to end badly. These guys didn't do that, they stayed the course. They suffered for it.

 

When I had a **** it attitude it was towards whatever the system thought of 'me and my kind'. Who were they in the system? IDIOTS, for all I cared. Sycophants and narcissists who didn't even deserve a spare moment of my time. Others? What made others any better than me? Nothing, not a damned thing.

 

I can't explain what happened, but suddenly the same pair of dice looked different. A whole lot better. The unimaginative freaks, well, they couldn't beat me so they began trying to be like me, like they understood me. I laughed b/c they haven't changed at all, and now they put me in vogue. But I STILL couldn't care less.

 

Ultimate riches is not jewels and gold, it's discovering yourself. Discovering the secrets which determine quality of life: they come from within. And even so, you still have a long way to go. I'm not perfect, you're not, never met anyone who was.

 

These boys were far away from that. I'm not them so I can't judge, but y'know, it takes recognizing and strive. While they had clear rationale, their judgment ultimately had to be clouded, somewhere. Clouded enough so they could not recognize things, and make their strive.

[Astor]

The two boys have now been found not guilty by Manchester Crown Court of plotting any massacre. Naturally, now criticism is being directed at the CPS for wasting money.

 

I'd rather the CPS wasted the money on the court case than not investigating this, given the level of planning that had gone into the 'massacre' fiction or not. A waste of money is far more preferable to a massive loss of life.

 

Story.